Mike's Oud Forums

Silk Oud Strings - Making Sense of the Historical Data

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jdowning - 8-9-2010 at 12:35 PM

The attached images are of a modern replica of an early wound silk Chinese qin (zither) string (I don't know who made it). The string is worn out so the windings loose and separating but, nevertheless, it gives a good idea about the string construction.
It can be seen that the big difference between a modern wire wound string and the early Chinese silk wound strings is that the silk winding of the latter is flattened (like a tape) producing a smooth surface as well as adding mass to the string.

The string wrapping tool used by the early Chinese string makers is represented by the attached sketch - a copy of a low resolution image of the original wood cut for clarity.
The tool is carved from a heavy hardwood (with a metal weight added if necessary (for added inertia). The wrapping material (made of six threads) is wound onto a bobbin and is fed between two round metal rods (mounted closely together) in order to flatten the wrapping as it is wound onto the string core - very important according to the early Chinese texts "as everything depends on this". (The wrapping must not be round in section).

In practice, the string core - about 12 feet (3.7 metres ) in length - is stretched tight between two posts with the wrapping tool riding on the string. The tool is then made to rotate around the string by shaking the string (like a skipping rope) causing the wrapping to be wound tightly over the string core.
Clearly, making a wound string with this simple tool must have been a highly skilled operation in order to achieve the required dimensions and tension of the wrapping to produce a string that was "uniform without scars".

The ancient Chinese were familiar with geared drives so one has to wonder why they did not wind the strings on a machine similar to those used by modern string makers? Possibly because the winding had to proceed relatively slowly and exactly to ensure a uniform, smooth string surface and avoid over stressing and breaking the wrapping?
(The early texts provide instructions on how to repair the wrapping in the event of breakage).

The early Chinese texts and translations can be found on John Thompson's website at

http://www.silkqin.com

Chinese Wrapped String (813 x 616).jpg - 100kB Silk String Wrapped (532 x 777).jpg - 77kB String Wrapping Tool (600 x 461).jpg - 55kB

jdowning - 12-9-2010 at 01:34 PM

The composition and properties of the glue binder necessary for making silk strings is a critical factor so some time has been spent in recent months in reviewing the possibilities before proceeding further with these string making trials.

The ancient Chinese string makers used raw silk (filament silk with the sericin gum coating left intact). The raw silk filament was first twisted - rope like - into a string, the string wound onto a wooden cylinder and then immersed in a bath of hot glue until the glue had been fully absorbed by the string. The string was then stretched out, under tension, to dry.
Sericin gum is a natural glue that is soluble in hot water so simply immersing the twisted string in water would be ineffective in gluing the silk filaments together - most of the sericin going into solution in the hot water and being lost.
The glue binder devised by the Chinese was compatible with the sericin and, therefore, retained the gum as part of the glue composition. The translation of two of the early Chinese texts is provided on John Thompson's web site and give the glue formulas as follows:-

1) Material Glue.

5 liang of isinglas.
1 handful of wheat.
1/2 liang of 'gem wax'.
1/2 liang of white qi-grass.
1 liang of white mulberry bark.
10 'heavenly gates of winter'.

2) Material Glue.

5 ounces of fish glue.
1 spoonful of wheat.
5 ounces of glistening white wax.
5 ounces of pai-chi.
1 ounce mulberry pai-p'i.
10 tien-men-dong.

The modern Chinese measure 1 liang = 1.76 ounces = 0.05 kilograms.

Isinglas is, of course, made from the swim bladders of fresh water fish - primarily the sturgeon. It is a pure form of gelatin with a fibrous structure making it a strong glue that was sometimes mixed with hide glue. Formerly - as gelatin - it was also used in cuisine for making edible jellies but is now prohibitively expensive (several hundred dollars per kilo).
Glistening white wax - also known as cire blanche or Chinese wax - is a low melting point insect wax of some commercial importance.
Pai-chi is the bulb of the orchid 'Bletilla hyacinthina' used in Chinese medicine - here used as an antibacterial agent (?).
Mulberry pai-p'i is bark from the root of the white mulberry bush - again used in Chinese medicine. A source of tannin perhaps?
Tian-men-dong translates literally as 'heavenly-luxuriant growth- winter' otherwise known as 'asparagus lucidus' - another medicine for the Chinese. One of its properties is that it is a humectant (retains moisture) so may be the reason why it is included in the glue formula - to give the glue some flexibility?
The wheat addition suggests that starch was also an important component - starch paste being a glue in its own right.

The Arabs and Persians seem to have made their oud strings in a different manner to the Chinese.
Ziryab (9th C) - is said to have first used silk strings on the oud but his strings were not spun in hot water 'as was the custom'. The 'Kanz al Tuhaf' (14th C) indicates that the silk was first degummed (i.e. the sericin gum completely removed by immersion in hot water) before being twisted into strings. A gum paste was then rubbed over the twisted strings (with a piece of linen) 'until it had penetrated into all the parts'.
The implication is that silk oud strings were twisted and finished with gum at room temperature without being immersed in a hot glue binder.

Trials to date using Gum Arabic as a binder have only been partially successful as the gum dries quickly and so cannot be made to completely penetrate into the tightly wound string by rubbing with a piece of linen cloth - it just remains (unsatisfactorily) as a surface coating.

There has to be another way to completely bind the degummed silk filaments together (at room temperature) into a smooth, flexible, uniform cylindrical string.

jdowning - 12-12-2010 at 12:03 PM

So the next step is to try to find a suitable glue binder that may be applied at ambient temperature to the strings either before or after twisting the degummed silk filament bundles.
A further constraint is that the materials used for the binder must have been available and familiar to oud string makers in the 14th C or earlier.

The first material to be considered is hide glue - composed primarily of collagen protein. A silk string made from hide glue as a binder should, therefore, closely mimic a gut string (also collagen) in performance.
Gelatin is another contender closely related to collagen - available in earlier times as isinglass. Gelatin can also be made from animal hides and tendons or from bone marrow.
Hide and gelatin glues are usually applied hot. However, they become liquid at room temperature if suitably treated with weak acetic acid (vinegar). The resultant slow drying liquid glue may then be applied to the silk filament immediately before twisting.
For these trials woodworking 'pearl' hide glue will be used as well as food grade gelatin.
The acetic acid is 5% household vinegar.

Starch paste glue is another possibility. Also hide, gelatin and starch glues may be used in combination. Rice and corn starches will be tested

To avoid deterioration of the glues due to bacterial action a solution of Borax (sodium borate) in water may be added. This also has the effect of reducing the acidity of the liquid glue to acceptable levels (about pH 4 or higher) to avoid the possibility of damage to and weakening of the silk Fibroin.

The effect of adding tannin to the glue binders is also of interest as a possible way to improve glue adhesion to the silk filaments - tannins being readily adsorbed by silk Fibroin. Also, as tannin can be adsorbed by up to 25% in weight, this material might be useful in replacing weight loss due to Sericin removal when the silk is degummed. Tannin is also a material that may be used as a precursor to loading silk with metallic salts - otherwise known as weighting - a process that may be useful for string making.
Tannin is also used for treating animal hides (collagen again) to make flexible, water resistant leather - so may also impart some flexibility and water resistance to the collagen glue binders.
The tannin used for these trials will be grape tannin - as used by wine makers.

For convenience the silk used for the initial trials will be 120/2 spun silk yarn from Treenway Silks. Use of this yarn will save a lot of time and effort as it is already degummed and is wound on a spool or cone thus saving the trouble of winding from a skein. Also - as a yarn - it is thicker in diameter than reeled raw silk filament so will take fewer turns to make up a string of the required diameter.
There is no evidence to confirm if spun silk rather than reeled silk filament was ever used for string making so it will be interesting to find out how strings made from this material will perform.

A very recent and interesting application for silk is as a bio engineering material used for reconstructive surgery such as ligament replacement and as a foundation for rebuilding bone, tissue and arteries. For this application the sericin gums must be completely removed as they are biologically incompatible with the human body and prevent new cell growth over the silk implants.
Interestingly the medical researchers have found that on degummed silk the fibroin surfaces become 'hairy' making it impossible to weave them into a supporting mesh for new cell growth. A solution to this problem has been to substitute gelatin for the sericin using a suitable biochemical to bind it to the fibroin. The gelatin glues down the fibroin 'hairs' making the filaments smooth and easy to weave.
The researchers have also 'discovered' in their quest to make artificial tendons that if the silk filaments are twisted together like a rope (they call it 'wire rope technology' for some reason), the silk cords will have good lateral flexibility needed for the sinews.
Of course, the Chinese string makers were aware of that over 4000 years ago!




jdowning - 12-13-2010 at 01:10 PM

Making the basic liquid glues using acetic acid (vinegar) is fairly straightforward.

Hide glue and gelatin are sold in various strengths (known as Bloom strength) - the higher the Bloom number the stronger the glue and the quicker it will set or 'gel'. A strong granular hide glue suitable for woodworking would be about 260 Bloom strength. Pearl hide glue has a lower Bloom strength and food grade gelatin has a higher Bloom strength.
The greater the Bloom strength the more acetic acid is required to make a glue mixture liquid at room temperature.
The vinegar strength used for these trials is household food grade - strength 5% by volume. Presumably if vinegar of a higher strength was used, less would be required.

The food grade gelatin used for the trials is made by "Knox" - readily available from local grocery stores. This gelatin is derived from bone marrow.

The first step is to add sufficient vinegar to cover the dry glue that is then left overnight for the liquid to be fully absorbed. Gelatin will absorb a much greater volume of liquid proportionally than hide glue.
The glue mixture (in a suitable glass container) is then heated on a water bath maintained at a temperature of 140 F (60 C) until it becomes fluid (do not exceed this temperature or the glue will spoil).
Next add more vinegar little by little - stirring the glue - until on cooling the glue does not gel but remains a liquid. This is a trial and error procedure so if the glue starts to gel on cooling bring it back up to temperature, add more vinegar, and repeat the process as necessary.

The liquid glue made for the trials gelled at room temperatures below about 70 F (21 C) but was easily liquified again by warming the glue container in a pan of warm water. Probably by adding a little more vinegar the tendency to gel would have been eliminated.

The attached image compares the liquid glue samples. The gelatin makes a clear, transparent glue.

The strength of the glues was tested subjectively by gluing together pieces of cotton cloth and then trying to 'peel' them apart after the glue had dried. Both glues were judged to have a satisfactory peel strength.





Liquid Glues (743 x 466).jpg - 80kB

jdowning - 12-14-2010 at 01:26 PM

The purpose of the glue binder on silk strings - made from continuous threads of degummed reeled silk - is to replace the sericin gum, to cement the individual filaments together and to add mass.

Likewise for strings made from degummed spun silk yarn. In addition the glue increases the tensile strength of the twisted string assembly by cementing together the intertwined short fibres of the spun yarn preventing longitudinal slipping of the fibres when under tension.
In this case it is the shear strength of the glue binder that provides additional strength after the yarns are brought into intimate contact by being twisted together.

For information, the attached image shows a section of a single thread of raw reeled silk as seen under a Scanning Electron Microscope at X1300 magnification (the image is from the 'Silk Reeling and Testing Manual' by Yong-woo Lee and is reproduced here by kind permission of the Food and Agriculture Organisation of the United Nations). I have added the text for clarification.
There is no scale on the image but the 'diameter' of each Brin filament would be about 5 -10 microns so this thread, made from, say, 16 individual fibroin filaments might measure about 30 microns in diameter (or 0.03 mm). Each Brin is roughly triangular in section enabling the filaments to 'nest' closely together, cemented as a whole by the Sericin gum as a matrix.
The many threads required to make a string are forced into even closer contact when twisted together.

The properties and shear strength of the liquid hide glue used in these trials is not at present known but each string will eventually be tested to destruction to determine relative tensile breaking stress.
Commercial liquid hide glues (such as the 'Franklin' brand) contain additives that make them weaker than hot hide glues at increasing levels of relative humidity. For example trials run by Susan L. Buck, Art Conservation Fellow, University of Delaware have shown that at 50% RH both liquid hide and hot hide glues were similar in shear strength with a mean value of 4174 psi and 3640 psi respectively (but Bloom strength of the hot hide glue was not specified) but at 85% RH the values dropped to 1143 psi and 2637 psi respectively. For this reason the Franklin company does not recommend using liquid hide glue for applications above 75% RH - not a problem for restoration of Museum artifacts stored under controlled humidity conditions of around 50% RH but luthiers beware!

The performance of the various slower drying, flexible liquid glue binder formulations to be used for these string making trials remains to be seen.






Reeled Silk Section.jpg - 60kB

jdowning - 12-15-2010 at 12:36 PM

Four liquid glue formulations based on Acetic acid are to be tested :
1) Hide Glue/Acetic acid mixture.
2) Gelatin/Acetic acid mixture.
3) Hide Glue/Acetic acid with added Tannin/Borax solution.
4) Gelatin/ Acetic acid with added Tannin/Borax solution.

These will be applied to 20 yarn bundles of degummed 120/2 spun silk - each bundle 99 cm in length twisted 175 turns. This should produce strings of about 0.60 mm in diameter - equivalent to a Mathna (3rd) string.

Additionally the liquid glues will be applied to 20 yarn bundles that have first been immersed in Tannin/Borax solution for 24 hours+.

This will produce 8 different samples of Mathna strings for individual testing and evaluation.

Furthermore, later an alkaline based liquid glue will also be tested and evaluated giving a total of 16 individual samples.
This could take some time although making the strings is quickly done.

Using 120/2 spun silk it is now possible to estimate the number of yarns required for each string (according to Kanz al-Tuhaf) from data obtained so far :

Hadd - 0.44 mm diameter - 10 yarns.
Zir - 0.54 mm diameter - 16 yarns.
Mathna - 0.62 mm diameter - 20 yarns.
Mathlath - 0.76 mm diameter - 32 yarns.
Bamm - 0.87 mm diameter - 42 yarns

Once trials on the 16 Mathna strings have been completed and the optimum glue formulation has been determined trial Mathlath and Bamm strings will be made up and tested.

jdowning - 12-16-2010 at 01:14 PM

Preparation of the yarn bundles for twisting is a straightforward operation taking only a few minutes using the string winding apparatus details of which have been posted earlier in this thread.
To facilitate handling of each yarn bundle the yarns are secured to metal hooks (for mounting on the twisting rig) using waxed thread (waxed thread does not slip). Once secured in this manner each bundle may be handled without the yarns tangling.

For string #1, after mounting on the twisting rig and loading with a weight of 1.84 Kg, the liquid glue was applied to the yarn bundle with a cotton cloth and then the bundle twisted 175 turns. Surplus glue was wiped off with a cotton cloth and the string allowed to dry on the rig for 24 hours.

To ensure maximum liquidity of the glue, the glue container was set in a pan of warm water for a few minutes before being applied to the yarn bundle. For strings #2 to #8 (now completed) it was found easier to place the yarn bundle on a plastic sheet, pour a small quantity of glue onto the bundle and then work the glue into the silk with a small artists paint brush. This ensured full saturation of the bundle with glue.
Each string was then twisted 175 turns with an initial load of 0.4 Kg, all surplus glue wiped off with a paper towel and then the full load of 1.84 Kg applied. After a final wipe with a cloth, each string was allowed to dry for 24 hours.

The number of turns and loadings are a best guess at the present time so may be subject to modification as experience is gained.

All strings are uniform in diameter and fairly smooth but with some slight roughness to the touch due to some small hairs of silk that were not smoothed down by the glue. Some additional finishing operation - yet to be determined - may be required to correct this situation.

String #1 was partially untwisted at one end to confirm full saturation of the string by the glue binder (note the little hairs of silk that have not been stuck down by the glue). It can be seen from the attached image that the string is very flexible.

Now for testing the strings.



Silk Yarn Bundle comp (412 x 600).jpg - 80kB String #1 (600 x 455).jpg - 49kB String #1 Untwisted comp.jpg - 50kB

jdowning - 12-18-2010 at 12:11 PM

The first test is for a Mathna string, 0.6 mm diameter made using a flexible hide glue/acetic acid binder.

All strings will be tested on one of my lutes - a reconstruction of an early 16th C bass lute by Laux Maler that I made in the 1970's. String length is 73 cm with six courses - the bottom three courses being octave tuned. The lute is currently fitted with 'Pyramid' nylon lute strings in 'D' tuning. The nylon strings allow the pitch to be raised to 'E' tuning, however, 'D' (at A440 standard) is the proper pitch for all gut and silk stringing.

The test string has been fitted at the sixth course position and tuned to g (196 Hertz frequency at a'=440 standard). The 5th course treble in plain nylon (0.6 mm diameter) is also at the same pitch with the overspun bass an octave lower (G 98 Hertz) so the performance of the silk test string with can be directly compared with modern nylon.

String #1 came up to stable pitch quite quickly and has been held at this pitch for 7 days at about 60% Relative Humidity. Assuming silk strings are similar to gut, the tension of the string at this pitch (using a 'Pyramid' string calculator for convenience) is about 3.2 Kg.
By comparison the nylon strings are at a tension of 2.4 Kg.

The attached sound file (compressed to MP3 so there are some significant audio losses) gives an idea of the relative performance the sequence - plucking the strings with a fingertip - is nylon overspun bass G then silk g and finally plain nylon g.
Audible sustain for all the strings was about 7 to 8 seconds.

The next step will be to raise the pitch of all strings by a semitone to g#208 Hz to see what happens. String tension of the silk string is about 3.6 Kg at this pitch. The tension of the nylon strings will increase to about 2.7 Kg which is about their optimum tension.

The sound clip was made with a Zoom H2 digital recorder positioned about 60 cm from the lute sound board.

Test String comp (596 x 779).jpg - 130kB

Attachment: String #1 finger tip.mp3 (375kB)
This file has been downloaded 478 times

jdowning - 12-21-2010 at 02:19 PM

The #1 Mathna string has been raised in pitch by a semitone and after three days is almost stable in pitch.
While the Mathna strings are being tested a trial Bamm string has been made from 42 yarns of 120/2 spun silk using the flexible hide glue/acetic acid binder. The finished string measures 0.92 mm in diameter - a bit larger than calculated (0.87 mm). This may be reduced when the string is later polished to eliminate any slight surface roughness.

A second 42 yarn bundle has been left to soak for several days in a saturated solution of copper sulphate. This is to test the possibilities of 'weighting' the bass strings with metallic salts to improve acoustic performance. Silk readily adsorbs metal salts that are used in the weighting and dyeing of silk fabrics.
It is possible that strings for oud and lute were weighted - as there are some historical references to the strings being coloured (and hence weighted) by the dyeing process. We do not know if the coloured strings were made from silk or gut (perhaps both - if gut also can be dyed as readily as silk?).

Ref. 1 - Ziryab, 9th C - " Zir string, yellow; Mathna, red; Mathlath, white; Bamm, black.

Ref. 2 - from an account by Pierre Belon's "Observations de plusieurs singularitez", 1553 - a record of travels through Greece, Egypt, Palestine and Turkey (see FoMRHI Comm. 25, July 1976). This includes observations on the making of gut strings in Turkey. These strings were used for many applications including instrument and bow (archery) strings according to the author.
However, it should be noted that the strings most often used by Turkish archers were traditionally made from silk cords - and oud strings were also made from silk thread - so Belon may have been confused between gut and silk strings (which have similar appearance).
He goes on to note " As for the lute strings, they make all sorts, very fine, and chanterelles (lute top strings) which can go as high (in pitch) as our own ones; but they are not as silvery (in tone colour?) ..... Such chanterelles are found in many types and colours, red, blue, green, yellow, white ...."

Ref 3 - Robert Dowland writing about purchasing lute strings in his "Varietie of Lute Lessons", 1610 says that "Some strings there are that are coloured, out of which choose the lightest colours, viz. among Greene choose Sea-water, of Red the Carnation, and of Blew the Watchet."
Dowland does not say that the strings of his day were made exclusively from gut - most today assume that they were but they could be wrong!

Note that 'Watchet' is old English for a light blue colour.
Also Dowland cautions against strings that are "faseling with little hayres". Not sure what 'faseling' means but the 'little hairs' are surely a feature of silk (rather than gut) strings that have not been finished smooth. How to properly finish my silk strings (to remove or smooth out any 'little hairs') is something yet to be investigated and perfected.

jdowning - 1-14-2011 at 01:20 PM

The #1 Mathna string (glue/acetic acid binder) has been mounted on the lute, under tension, at pitch g#208Hz for over a month without signs of failure. This is a promising result for the acid based liquid glue binders used in this experimental investigation.

In the meantime several strings have been made using various binder/tannin compositions that await testing.

So that comparative, measurable data may be obtained for each test string a rig has been designed that will be completed within the next few days. This is a simple affair consisting of a sound box with fixed bridge attached, a movable nut - to vary vibrating string length, and a pulley and weight system to apply a measured load to each test string. This apparatus will allow the testing of up to four strings "in parallel" - although it is anticipated that two strings tested together for comparison will be the norm. In particular it will allow a comparative assessment of 'weighted' strings.

Other compositions of liquid glue binder have been made up for testing made from hide glue and gelatin using "saccharate of lime" (sugar and calcium hydroxide) as a liquefying agent. As with the acetic acid based liquid glue binders, the liquefying agent must be added a little at a time until the glue remains in a liquid state at room temperature. All very much a trial and error procedure.

jdowning - 1-25-2011 at 01:05 PM

The new string test rig is now essentially complete apart from a few minor additions.

Made from scrap/recycled materials it is comprised of a solid pine wood frame on which is mounted a simple sound box made from Yellow Poplar with a Sitka Spruce sound board. The bridge is guitar style with ebony tie block and bone saddle. The nut can be moved to provide a vibrating string length ranging from 50 cm to 75 cm. Each test string passes from the nut over a plastic pulley where a weight is applied to provide a measured string tension (ranging from 1.5 Kg to 4 Kg).
Between the nut and pulley each string passes over a small block of UHMW (ultra-high molecular weight) polyethylene - a dense rigid plastic with a very low coefficient of friction. Not shown in the attached images of the rig is a simple clamp device that will lock each string to the plastic block during testing.
The sliding nut will also be locked in place with a screw during testing (yet to be added). Although the nut position is infinitely variable, strings will be tested with vibrating string lengths ranging from 50 cm to 75 cm in increments of 5 cm for convenience.

String Test Rig 1 (810 x 543).jpg - 81kB String Test Rig 2 (600 x 450).jpg - 52kB String Test Rig 3 (600 x 450).jpg - 63kB

jdowning - 4-14-2011 at 12:25 PM

After nearly 3 months, have finally found time to run some tests on the first batch of strings made with 120/2 de-gummed spun silk, using acid based, hide glue binders - as previously reported.

The acid based binders have proven to be resistant to bacterial attack without requiring refrigeration - unlike untreated hide glue or the experimental alkaline based glue binders that both began to decay after a month.
The acid based glues are also flexible when dry so will be used exclusively for further experimentation.

Preliminary comparative testing is being undertaken on the string test rig in order to measure string sustain and linear density of each string. The 'loading' of a string (due to weight added by the binders) is calculated indirectly by measuring the frequency of vibration and, knowing string length, diameter and string tension, using the Mersenne-Taylor relationship for vibrating strings to determine the linear density. Alternatively, weighing each string can only be achieved using an accurate (and costly) analytical balance.

Each string when mounted and loaded with measured weights on the test rig was sounded with a leather 'pick' and the frequency of vibration measured with a low cost ($10) but effective digital tuner. The sustain of each string was also measured from the instant a string was sounded to the point at which the tuner pointer returned to zero.
The attached image shows the setup. Here the tuner is indicating a pitch of about C sharp plus 20 cents at A440 standard - equivalent in this case to a frequency of nearly
140 Hz.

Preliminary results indicate that the glue binder results in a modest loading of the silk from an untreated silk linear density of about 1.2 gm/cc increasing to an average of about 1.35 gm/cc (measured range 1.25 to 1.45 gm/cc) due to the glue binder composition and loading applied during twisting of the string.
For comparison, the linear density of a plain mono filament nylon string (Pyramid) was measured on the test rig and calculated to be about 1.14 gm/cc.

String vibration sustain for string lengths between 55cm and 70cm - plain nylon and silk - was relatively consistent, measured at 5 to 6 seconds duration. String tension on test ranged from 1.5 Kg to 4 Kg in 0. 5 Kg steps and string length from 70 cm to 55 cm in 5 cm steps.
String diameters initially tested were in the range 0.6 mm to 0.66mm (Mathna) and 0.9 to 0.92 (Bamm)

The increasing of string loading due to the glue binder more than compensates for the weight loss in the silk due to removal of the Sericin in the de-gumming process. Nevertheless, a more significant (and desirable) increase in loading - particularly for bass strings - will necessitate a different approach.
More to follow.




String Test Setup (600 x 457).jpg - 51kB

jdowning - 4-27-2011 at 12:22 PM

It has been necessary to modify the string test rig because of inconsistent measurements. The main problem was that, due to considerable friction in the pulley assembly and at the nut, the tension in the string was less than the measured dead weight. This has been corrected by :
1) dismantling the pulley assembly, cleaning and lubricating the bearings so that the pulley wheel freely rotates.
2) raising the pulley wheel level with the nut to eliminate any downward force of the string on the nut.
3) mounting the test rig at an angle of 45 degrees to further reduce loading on the pulley wheel bearing (and hence bearing friction by about 50%).

The modified rig has been 'calibrated' using 'Pyramid' monofilament plain nylon and 'Pyramid' gut with dead loads of 2.5, 3.0, 3.5 and 4 kg. This has returned consistent results for calculated string density of 1.1 gm/cc for nylon and 1.3 gm/cc. These are reasonably accurate results - to the first place of decimal - which is about as close as can be expected given this relatively unsophisticated apparatus.
As the objective is to compare the relative densities of the experimental silk strings under test, this level of accuracy will be good enough.

The attached image shows the procedure for calculating string density from the test rig measurements - derived from the basic Mersenne-Taylor Law for vibrating strings.

Now that the modified rig has been satisfactorily calibrated, the first batch of silk strings will now be retested to determine the calculated string densities.



scan0001 (600 x 590).jpg - 69kB

jdowning - 5-5-2011 at 05:45 AM

With the rig now modified and 'calibrated' the first batch of experimental strings (10 in total) has now been retested. These have all been made from de-gummed 120/2 spun silk yarn using different flexible glue binders, silk pretreatments, and loadings of the strings during twisting. All just guesswork at this stage until more experience and data is gained.
Comparative tests have also been undertaken on strings made from filament silk with Sericin binder (made some years ago by Alexander Rakov of New York) as well as traditional Chinese silk instrument strings of 3 part 'roped' construction.

The purpose is to compare the calculated relative densities of the strings with the objective of finding the best method to maximise string 'loading' - the greater the density the better (comparing 'like with like' and all else being about equal).
According to research data from the Textile Industries, raw silk has a density of between 1.30 and 1.37 gm/cc whereas that of degummed silk is from 1.25 to 1.3 gm/cc. By comparison plain gut strings have a density between 1.2 and 1.4 gm/cc.

The first step for this first batch of strings has been to add mass by addition of the glue binders as well as by adsorption of Tannin into the silk fibres and compare the results.
Eight string samples measuring from 0.62 mm to 0.68 mm diameter (under tensions raging from 2.5 Kg to 4 Kg) had calculated densities under test ranging from 1.0 gm/cc to 1.21 gm/cc. Two string samples measuring 0.89mm and 0.95 mm diameter under the same loading conditions gave a calculated density from 1.04 to 1.22.
By comparison the Chinese roped string (0.58 mm diameter) gave a calculated mean density of 1.13 gm/cc and Alexander Rakov's string (0.68 mm diameter) a density of 1.20 gm/cc. The Chinese string also eventually broke at a sustained load of
3.5 Kg demonstrating the relative lower tensile strength of roped construction strings.

All of these results are lower than expected but give some indication of the next direction to take in the quest for increased density. Note that the calculated density may not be equal to the true density of a string due to factors such as string elasticity. The objective is to eventually double the calculated density without significantly affecting string elasticity/flexibility.
A long way still to go!

Time now to make a new batch of strings and investigate other string weighting alternatives.

jdowning - 5-6-2011 at 06:26 AM

As the calculated density will be used as a measure of the relative effectiveness of weighting strings (of the same diameter and construction) so will the calculated elastic modulus be used as a measure of the relative string elasticity in order to establish the optimum string construction - number of twists etc. - the greater the string elasticity the better.

The elastic modulus (or Young's Modulus) is a constant value for each material type or composition. It is defined (for a string) as the Stress on a string divided by the Strain. Stress is the string tension divided by the cross sectional area of the string and strain is the increase in the length of a string when under tension divided by the original string length when not under tension.
The more elastic or 'stretchy' a material is the smaller the value of the elastic modulus.

The relative elastic moduli for the first batch of experimental strings has been determined using the test rig - each string being tensioned with a 4Kg load and the extension from the unloaded length (67.5 cm) being measured as well as the string diameter when under tension. This is all a bit 'rough and ready' but is intended only to identify order of magnitude changes.

The tests on strings in the diameter range of 0.5 to 0.7 mm indicate that monfilament nylon is the most elastic, followed by plain low twist gut and medium twist silk filament/sericin followed by the first batch of experimental strings. The plain gut and medium twist silk strings have an elastic modulus ranging from about 40% to 60% of the low twist experimental strings and the modulus of nylon is about 60% less than the gut/medium twist silk.
Although the first batch of experimental strings are the most flexible (easy to bend) of the group they are the least elastic (stiffest) - which may account in part for the unexpectedly low calculated values for density - the stiffer strings vibrating at a relatively higher fundamental frequency.

So more work need to be done to find the optimum degree of twist per unit length for each diameter of simply twisted silk string. If increasing the number of twists does not increase string elasticity to, say, the same order as the medium twist silk filament/sericin strings then this might be an indication that spun silk thread is not the best material for making viable instrument strings.
Time will tell - but at the end of the day, judgment of the acoustic performance of a string lies in the ear of the beholder regardless of the calculated values of this or that string property.
In this respect, it is of interest to note that the audible 'sustain' of all of the strings tested in batch #1 - nylon, gut, silk - each measured in the range of around 5 to 6 seconds.

jdowning - 5-8-2011 at 12:19 PM

Silk strings can be made heavier ('weighted) by the addition of the glue binder as well other materials that are more dense than the silk filament.

Silk will readily adsorb metal salts so the traditional weighting method used by the silk fabric industry is to immerse the silk in a bath of a metallic salt solution followed by immersion in another salt bath that will react to form an insoluble precipitate of the metal salt either in or on the silk filament.
Heavy metal salts of tin and lead were commonly used for weighting and reagents creating the desired precipitation can include organic materials such as gelatin and tannin.

The other method of weighting strings is to simply mix heavy powders with the glue binder - such as copper powder or oxides of iron.

Due to the toxicity of heavy metals (not a problem in earlier times - but lead and mercury are not an option here!), these string weighting trials will be restricted to the metals tin, copper and iron as well as the organic materials gelatin and tannin. A further restriction is that the weighting materials or chemicals must have been available to the ancients.

The procedure for making the heavy metal salt Stannous Chloride has been described in a previous post - easily made - and to be used in these trials.

Next to make fine copper powder - as an additive to the glue binder. Again this is easily made by reacting a Copper Sulphate solution with iron to form metallic Copper and Ferrous Sulphate.

Here a convenient source of iron is fine grade 'steel wool' readily available from any hardware store (the kind that is oil free - used for finishing painted surfaces). This is immersed in a saturated solution of Copper Sulphate (blue coloured) and allowed to stand until the reaction is complete. The heavy metallic Copper falls to the bottom of the container and the green coloured liquid remaining is Ferrous Sulphate (that will be used as another weighting chemical).
The copper powder is collected by straining the liquid though a fine filter (paper coffee machine filter) and after washing with water allowed to dry.
The dried powder is then ground up in a mortar and will be sifted through a fine sieve to remove any 'large' residual iron wire particles prior to mixing with the glue binder.



Copper 1 (600 x 555).jpg - 60kB Copper 2 (600 x 522).jpg - 45kB Copper 3 (600 x 450).jpg - 29kB Copper 4 (600 x 450).jpg - 81kB Copper 5 (600 x 450).jpg - 41kB Copper 6 (600 x 450).jpg - 63kB

jdowning - 5-10-2011 at 05:27 AM

Another weighting material that will be tested is iron oxide - readily available and safe. Iron oxide comes in many complex compositions (such as 'rust' that forms on iron in damp conditions) and is widely used in commerce from making iron to paint pigments to cosmetics. It occurs naturally in minerals such as Hematite that contains over 90% of iron oxide. It is red in colour but other forms of the oxide are coloured black, brown yellow, green and blue.

The attached image shows a sample of 'red oxide' finely ground and sold as an artist's pigment to colour paint and varnish. The same stuff is also sold as 'Jewellers Rouge' - a very fine abrasive polish for gold and other metals.

Iron Oxide has a density ranging between about 4 and 5 gm/cc so is about 4X more dense than degummed silk filament. However as Iron oxide and copper powders will be added to the glue binders for added mass (and not adsorbed by the silk) the possibilty for significant increase in string mass is likely limited.

The most promising weighting procedure is likely to be by chemical adsorption - as employed by the silk fabric industries. Unfortunately there is little published information available on details of the procedure, chemicals used etc - probably because this is proprietary information (trade secret).

For this investigation the weighting chemicals to be tested will be tannin, copper sulphate, ferrous (iron) sulphate and stannous (tin) chloride - all chemicals (among many others) familiar to the ancients.
For weighting powders - glue binder additives - Iron oxide and copper powders will be tested.

From the batch #1 string tests the glue binders having the greatest elasticity are the acid based liquid glues modified with the addition of tannin (equivalent to the softening of tanned leather) combined with pretreatment of the silk fibre by soaking in a tannin solution.



Red Oxide.jpg - 45kB

jdowning - 5-13-2011 at 12:10 PM

The 8 batch #1 test strings (0.62 to 0.68 mm diameter) have now been subject to destructive testing to determine approximate Ultimate Tensile Strength.
Each string was simply loaded using a spring scale until it broke - repeated twice for each string. The results were fairly consistent regardless of the composition of glue binder to give an approximate U.T.S. value of 31,000 psi (2180 Kg/cm2).
This is about 40% of the value reported by the textile industries for raw filament silk. The reduced value may be due to the use de-gummed spun silk rather than continuous filament raw silk, the degree of twist in the fibres of the string and the acidity of the glue binders - all of which may contribute to a reduction in string breaking strength - particularly the twist factor (more twist = less tensile strength).
These results indicate that strings made from spun silk may not be suitable for making the top two treble courses - for which the stronger filament silk must be used to avoid frequent breakage under tension

It is interesting to note that the batch #1 experimental strings broke with quite a uniform 'clean break' - a good sign indicating homogeneous construction of the string - see attached image. On the other hand this may be due to brittle failure of the silk fibres due to acidity of the glue binder - not so good!




String Clean Break.jpg - 35kB

jdowning - 5-15-2011 at 12:08 PM

Mimmo Peruffo (Aquila strings) - who has pioneered the development of 'loaded' historical gut strings - presents and discusses the historical evidence in support of his convictions in his paper "The Lute in its Historical Reality" . Very interesting, well presented and easy to understand.
He concludes that fine copper powder is the only practical way to load gut bass strings - so this will definitely be tested in these trials for silk strings.

Mimmo's paper can be downloaded from

http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf

jdowning - 5-20-2011 at 04:07 PM

'Plictho Dell'Arte de Tenori' is a book in four parts about the dyeing of fabrics published in Venice in 1548. The author - Giovan Ventura Rosetti - provides many formulae for the dyeing of silk in the third part of his book including procedures for stiffening or weighting of silk - of particular interest here. These include application of Gum Arabic, use of tannins in combination with animal glues, and a pre-tannin soaking followed by a treatment with an iron salt - all part and parcel of these planned trials for the weighting of silk strings.

The silk strings with the most elastic properties (potentially at least) are those made like a small rope - from 3 or 4 twisted strands . The Chinese have been making this type of instrument string for centuries and still are today. I have an assortment of these strings purchased over 30 years ago in London, England as well as some recently purchased by my son on a business trip to the Far East.
The strings are quite stiff (not very pliable), supplied in coils, so are probably made from raw silk with the sericin gum left as a binder (but not sure about that).
The plan is to use the strings as a basis for weighted 6th and perhaps 5th course bourdons by first de-gumming the strings followed by treatment with tannin/ ferrous sulphate and using a flexible hide glue binder loaded with iron oxide powder. Alternatively a flexible hide glue loaded with copper powder will be tested.

Chin 1 (600 x 549).jpg - 140kB Chin 2 (600 x 595).jpg - 63kB Chin 3 (600 x 577).jpg - 58kB

jdowning - 5-22-2011 at 12:19 PM

As an initial test, a metre length of Chinese 'roped' silk string - measuring 1.1 mm diameter - has been de-gummed prior to being subject to loaded with Tannin and Ferrous Sulphate solutions.
The length of string was de-gummed - simply tied in a coil and immersed in a solution of Sodium Carbonate (Washing Soda) and dish washing detergent held at a temperature just below boiling point for 45 minutes. (Alternatively, a solution of wood ash in water could have been used for de-gumming - more historically correct but less convenient). The proportions of the de-gumming bath were 100 c.c. Detergent, 50 c.c. Sodium Carbonate powder to 3800 c.c. of water (1 U.S. gallon). The coil twisted around itself as the silk absorbed moisture and expanded - as seen in the attached image - but was easily untangled after de-gumming.
After de-gumming the string was washed in fresh water and left to dry under a nominal load of 0.4 Kg - to ensure that the string remained straight and uniform without kinks.
The extent of the de-gumming will be assessed tomorrow once the string has dried.


Chinese String Degummed (600 x 450).jpg - 37kB

jdowning - 5-23-2011 at 12:25 PM

The dried string after degumming and under a 0.4 Kg load stretched from 100cm to 102 cm and the nominal diameter reduced from 1.10 mm to 1.02 mm - most likely due to loss of the Sericin gum - as well as some partial unwinding of the plies of the string. The dried string is very pliable (like a rope) and white in colour so is probably almost fully degummed.

The string has been immersed in a hot tannin solution for 90 minutes and allowed to remain in the solution for another
4 1/2 hours - then washed in fresh water. The tannin had been adsorbed by the silk to become brown in colour.

The string was then immersed in a hot solution of Ferrous Sulphate for 90 minutes and then washed in fresh water. The string had turned black in colour due to the reaction between the Tannin and Iron salt forming the complex compound Iron Tannate within the silk (hopefully).
The string has been left to dry under a nominal 0.4 Kg load.

It is interesting to note that the Bamm bass string of a four course oud in Ziryab's time (9th C) was coloured black (the other strings being coloured white Mathlath , red Mathna and yellow Zir) - suggesting that metal salts may have been used to weight the larger diameter strings at least.

The next step is to treat the dried string with a flexible acidic glue binder to complete the weighting process.

Chinese Rope Weighted 1 (600 x 450).jpg - 40kB Chinese Rope  Weighed 2 (600 x 450).jpg - 56kB Chinese Rope  Weighted 3 (600 x 450).jpg - 62kB

jdowning - 5-25-2011 at 12:19 PM

After treatment with the acidic glue binder the string diameter was restored to 1.1 mm diameter. The dried string was flexible - not with a brittle finish like a string made with a Sericin or Gum Arabic binder - but still quite stiff. The string was wrapped several times around a small diameter rod to improve flexibility and then subject to testing on the test rig. Sustain was modest at about 5 seconds and calculated relative density about 1.14 gm/cc.
Acoustic performance - tested on a lute tuned to E at A440 - as a fifth course bourdon with nylon octave (A 110 Hz at string length 67.5 cm - tension about 2.5 Kg) - was judged to be poor, lacking in sustain and dull in tone colour (at least compared to modern nylon strings). Disappointing!

The attached image shows the finished string.


Chinese Rope with Binder (600 x 450).jpg - 39kB

jdowning - 5-26-2011 at 11:30 AM

Ooops!
Part of the reason for the dull sound when tested on a lute is that both the bourdon and the octave string were tuned in unison! This has been corrected and the results are more satisfactory but still not ideal. The lute is currently strung throughout with Pyramid nylon - except for the test string - and has a bright tone with a lot of sustain. This factor together with the octave string at correct pitch is probably essential for an acceptable acoustic performance of the silk basses (as it would be for plain gut).

On the test rig the string - after 'settling down' under load - showed only 5 mm of elastic extension from no load to 3 Kg tension. Based upon this result a rough calculation of Young's Modulus for the string showed that its relative modulus of elasticity is about half that of the batch#1 strings recently tested - about equal to Pyramid plain gut - or about twice that of Pyramid monofilament nylon. Nevertheless significant improvement is still required to produce a satisfactory silk bass string.

The test string, when being de-gummed and treated, was allowed to unwind to a stable condition but this has resulted in a reduced degree of twist in the modified string - from about 50 to 30 degrees - with a consequent reduction in the elastic properties of the string (greater degree of twist = greater elasticity). Another 'roped' string will, therefore, be made using the same treatment, glue binder etc. but after loading with glue and with the glue still in its liquid state the string will be re-twisted to regain its original degree of twist.

Reduced string elasticity makes a string more sensitive to tuning adjustments (compared to nylon) so, ideally, tuning peg diameter must be kept as small as possible. The tension on the test string is about 2.5 Kg (determined by trials on the test rig). Lower tensions than this (to achieve a lower fundamental string frequency or pitch) might cause intonation problems with the thinner octave string due to tension variations as the strings are stretched over the frets. Also octave tuned string pairs require slightly higher finger pressure to ensure both strings contact the fret when stopped - again increasing string tension slightly.
Plucking with fingertips requires a slightly different technique than for modern nylon strings. The less slippery surface of the silk basses provides a better 'grip' to the fingertip. The strings are also relatively smooth so do not 'squeek' under the fingers of the left hand like metal overspun bass strings.

For information, the attached sound clip is the test string + octave tuned pair plucked together with finger tip - first sounded open and then progressively stopped as far as the last (7th) fret.


Attachment: STE-016.ogg (452kB)
This file has been downloaded 300 times

jdowning - 5-27-2011 at 12:12 PM

Silk filament is not perfectly elastic - i.e. once stretched it does not fully return to its original length. The attached plot shows the recovery of de-gummed silk filament after being stretched under load from its original length of 500 mm to 525 mm. (i.e. 5% extension). When the load is released the length returns to 508 mm after 15 seconds but the filament then remains permanently stretched to 506 mm.
Gut strings have similar inelastic properties.

Measurements on the test rig to determine string elongation under load were quickly done in order to get some idea of the calculated relative Modulus of Elasticity (or stiffness - Young's Modulus) of each string under test - order of magnitude for comparison purposes rather than high precision.

For information, Young's Modulus (E) calculated from these test rig measurements - expressed in International Standard units (Gigapascals or GPa - a unit of pressure) - ranged from an E value of about 6.4 to 8.9 for the 10 batch #1 experimental strings. This compares to a commercial E value for silk filament of between 8.4 to 12.9 GPa - so the twisted batch #1 experimental strings (made from spun silk and glue) are a bit more elastic than a string made from untwisted silk filament.

The original Chinese silk 'roped' string had a calculated E value of about 3.5 GPa. For the experimental modified 'weighted' Chinese string the E value is 4.2 GPa - a bit less elastic than the original due to reduction in degree of twist.

For comparison, historical string maker Eph Segerman (Northern Renaissance Instruments) reports that measured E values for his gut strings range from about 5 to 6 GPa for low twist plain gut to about 1 to 2 GPa for roped gut strings.



Silk Recovery after Stretching.jpg - 87kB

bulerias1981 - 5-29-2011 at 08:44 PM

John,

I just want to take the time out to say I really appreciate your research and your work on this forum, even though I may not reply to many of your posts, I am reading. In this matter of making and testing silk strings, I don't have a lot to share since I haven't attempted to make and test my own strings. But it is something I intend on doing when I have the time at sime point.

I have one question. Why do you frequent here, and generously share your hard earned data in an oud forum?
I mean, you seem very much from the European school in terms of your training and methodology. I would think someone in that mind frame would spend the energy and effort in a lute forum... the Western equivalent. So why the oud forum? What is it about the oud you are interested in? You seem to have spent a lot of time touching up on the subject of an oud and the transition to the lute. Which I find fascinating.

Again, I appreciate that you share these things here, im not trying to discourage anything! I'm only trying to understand your agenda. I wish you to continue of course.
I was also considering a lute forum. Are there any you'd suggest?

jdowning - 5-30-2011 at 12:29 PM

Thank you for your interest John.

I have been interested in the lute and oud - from an historical perspective - since the late 1950's/early 1960's when the modern lute and 'early music' revival really started to 'take off' and when I spent a brief period of time working on an engineering project in Cairo, Egypt hearing at first hand the classical oud being played in its 'natural environment'.
The oud and lute are said to be related historically so I undertake research of both instruments. What is relevant to the oud (historically) should, therefore, be relevant to the lute and vice versa? However, as little or no evidence is provided by the historians in support of their claim that the oud is the ancestor of the lute one of my current projects is to compare the geometries of old lutes and ouds - and other relevant data - to try to establish if there is in fact a close historical relationship between the two instruments. The alternative scenario could be that the lute was developed independently from the oud.

I post on Mike's forum - with subject matter related primarily to the oud - not only because this forum is about the best that possibly can be - with superior design and facilities - but because I believe in freely sharing information and experience with others. This, in turn, tends to benefit everyone when there is a reciprocal exchange of information that further expands the knowledge base. Also, for those of us who have no knowledge of Arabic or Persian, the assistance of those forum members who are fluent in these languages, in translating and interpreting the old texts, is invaluable and important.

I also write about matters relating to the lute (as well as the oud) in FoMRHI (The Fellowship of Makers and Researchers of Historic Instruments) where I have been a member and contributor since its inception in 1975. FoMRHI was originally established as a publication to promote an informal and free exchange of information about historic instruments - an organisation predating Internet forums. In the same spirit of free exchange of information, all of the past articles (Comms) published in FoMRHI are now available for free download from :

http://www.fomrhi.org

Lots of useful information.

FoMRHI is a 'snail mail' not an on line forum. The only forum that I know about that is (but one that I do not contribute to) is LuteNet - an unmoderated email forum.

http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/aboutUs/lutenet.html

jdowning - 3-6-2013 at 01:22 PM

My silk string making equipment has recently been gathering a bit of dust but is not forgotten and otherwise is ready to continue with experiments. This might be a good time to pick up the thread again as new member to the forum 'danyel' has some successful first hand experience in making silk strings in accordance with the descriptions in Kanz al-Tuhaf. The problem - perhaps not altogether surprisingly - is that G.H. Farmer's translation of the original text may not be correct when he states that 'gum' was used as a binder. Apparently 'boiled fish glue' is the correct translation.

This being the case it is important now to take a step backward and include 'fish glue' in the list of potential binders. Fish glue of ancient times was (and is) a very pure form of gelatin (isinglas) obtained from the swim bladders of the sturgeon fish (although it is said that the Persians used the material from the roof of the mouth of the sturgeon). A lower quality glue is said to have been made from the skin of the sturgeon.
Swim bladders of any kind of fish can also provide an 'isinglas' glue high quality (as it was in England in the 16th C in absence of the 'real stuff') - its just that sturgeon are big fish so require less effort to collect the quantities required for glue production.

Luthiers have used both isinglas and hide glue (individually or in combination) for centuries for instrument construction and repair. Nowadays any luthier contemplating using real isinglas as a glue must be prepared to lay out a lot of money in pursuit of historical authenticity as the stuff is now very costly to purchase. Fortunately I have a small quantity of real isinglas available for testing - courtesy of Alexander Rakov, modern pioneer maker of silk instrument strings (for lute and viol).

A lower quality of 'fish glue' (made from boiled fish scraps with modern chemicals added for preservative (so not strictly an historical alternative) that I shall also try out is the Lee Valley fish glue that, hopefully, might be applied cold rather than hot in the case of 'isinglas'. I am sceptical that either will work by being simply rubbed into a twisted silk string until the glue has fully penetrated the string (as directed by the Kunz al-Tuhaf - according to Farmer) but will give it 'my best shot', testing with open mind nevertheless hopeful that the results will be successful.

jdowning - 3-8-2013 at 01:19 PM

At this point, and before proceeding further, it may be of interest to provide some background information.

Some years ago - interested in 'authentic' stringing for the lute and having been disappointed in the apparently 'poor' performance (in my opinion having tried them) of gut bass strings that were then (1970's) being sold as 'historically correct' - I began to wonder if materials other than gut might have been used to make lute strings of the 16th and 17th C - for example silk multifilament (and monofilament) and other textile materials such as linen as well as sinew. These notions were expressed in the pages of FoMRHI. I did, in all innocence, for example, wonder that if ouds used silk strings (fact) and the lute was supposed to have developed from the oud then at some time - surely - lutes also would have used silk strings? Perhaps silk was a superior string material to gut and might account for the observed significant differences between modern 'historical' gut strings and historical accounts of lute strings. But no - such suggestions were met with resistance and (in one case) vehement denial.

I then received a phone call from Alexander Rakov in early 2001. He explained that he had examined a number of old instruments in various collections and had observed that some of them had original strings that were not made from gut but from what appeared to be textile materials.
To cut a long story short, we spent the next two years in regular cordial correspondence brainstorming ideas about possible alternatives, researching available records etc - with Alexander making experimental silk strings that he kindly sent to me (and others) for testing and evaluation.
The objective was not only to investigate if silk strings were a viable solution to the lute gut string 'dilemma' but to establish a method where anyone could easily and economically (compared to gut) make their own viable silk strings.
Although the main interest was to develop strings for the European lute and bowed viols (his chosen period instruments as a professional musician) - Alexander did also make - on request and as a second priority - experimental silk strings for other instruments such as the oud, harp and guitar.

His strings for lute and viol were finely crafted and successful for those instruments. Less successful has been the objective to persuade others to make their own strings - not unexpected, I suppose, in this essentially consumer society!

One advantage of making one's own silk strings (at least for fretted instrument players) is that if a string does not turn out well enough to be used on an instrument they serve well as tied frets in place of costly gut.

This thread attempts to continue the pioneering example set by Alexander but with more emphasis on freely providing information on making workable silk strings for the oud (as well as for the lute) based upon what little historical data is available as well as a knowledge of the physics of silk as a string making material.
All contributions welcomed!



danyel - 3-9-2013 at 09:37 AM

Dear John,
This is a matter of gigantic scope and it will take much care and hence time to comment on your formidable research.
Briefly, as to my own background: when I took classes in renaissance lute at the Frankfurt Conservatory back in around 1990, I was appalled by the plastic strings my teacher and most "early" lutanists put on their lutes. But I was also disenchanted by the instruments as such. To cut a long zîr short, I bought an oud and I found they had put equally disgusting strings on it (the instrument, though cheap, had much more sound than any lute I had seen so far yet it is so bad I haven't touched it ever since I obtained real ‘idân). I removed them (the strings) and put some spare qin strings on, and played with those for years. Later, when I finally found out that some people outside Germany built serious lutes (upon visiting Stephen Barber whom I had contacted because of his article on the Elyass oud in The Lute), I strung my new, good lutes with gut strings first by Kürschner, then Baldock. I spent many hours with Kürschner, Baldock, Daniel Larson, Seegerman discussing strings and finally concluded, string making was a craft and the difference between acceptable and great strings was due to subtle improvements of craft over the years. Surely, beef gut and all kinds of synthetics were ruled out, but still, how different various gut strings, made from the same sheep intestines, turn out when made by different makers is frightening. It might be compared to playing music: Two people playing the same piece on the same instrument sound different. When Rakov entered the scene I was exited that someone finally tackled the silk issue, but the strings he kindly sent to me were at first complete rubbish, and on second try still utterly useless. They broke soon, were false and had a very coarse sound. Hence I went back to the infinitely superior Chinese strings. Meanwhile I discovered that Japanese makers offer a range of very fine silk strings for various instruments, including roped and very smooth chanterelle/zîr types. My own attempts at making silk strings according to the Kanz at-tuhaf was limited to thin types simply twisted from de-gummed yarn and rubbed with glue. They came out quite similar to the strings I found on Central Asian dotârs. They are kept at very low tension and some of them are still intact on my Tanbûr-dotâr instruments after many years (photo). Their players where apparently not so fuzzy with strings. With the ‘ûd kâmil it is different. Only the best strings work here. Maybe you could furnish us with a recording of your beautiful Urmawî-lute, playing more than just a scale, in order we might get an idea how good those strings are? My experience is, that silk strings take a long time to settle and have to be broken in. They improve dramatically during that process. They also are very mizrâb-sensitive, i.e. the position and movements and quality of the rîshâ/turtle/horn/wooden mizrâb changes the sound produced much more than with gut strings.

The renaissance treble viol being (if it ever existed) maybe the most problematic of all instruments, string wise, I asked A. Rakov specifically for treble viol strings. His 2nd set is still on (though without tension), because I gave up on that instrument after his strings, slightly better than available gut in response, but dull in timbre and false, had all variously broken.


[file]26216[/file] [file]26218[/file]

danyel - 3-9-2013 at 09:41 AM

this is a closeup of my silk strings (Chinese and Japanese) on the "Timurid" oud,

below self-made do-târ strings

danyel - 3-9-2013 at 09:43 AM

it does not seem to work...
the attached jpg's are "lost in space", sorry.

danyel - 3-9-2013 at 09:47 AM



[file]26220[/file]

danyel - 3-9-2013 at 09:52 AM

now the kâmil-close up once more:




jdowning - 3-9-2013 at 01:20 PM

Thank you for your commentary and images danyel.
Sorry that you did not find the experimental silk strings made and given to you by A. Rakov for evaluation to be 'good'. Your experience does not seem to match the assessment of other professional musicians who have used his strings but who am I to judge.

You say that you are disgusted at the sound of modern oud strings (presumably this includes the 19th C gut and metal wound on gut/silk core basses) yet these strings are historically perfectly appropriate for any of the old ouds surviving today (as well as any 'replica' of an early oud that copies the sound board bracing and geometry of these surviving ouds).

Like you I am curious to find out how the early instruments (that do not survive) might have sounded with their original strings. Others are working on the historical gut string problem that as far as I know has yet have been resolved - unless you are happy to accept the dull flaccid 'thud' of roped lute gut basses as musical. I am talking here about lutes where the strings (going beyond the fifth or sixth course of the oud) are plucked with the soft fingertip rather than plectrum.

I am also curious to find out what can be achieved with strings made from silk filament (or even spun silk) which is the main thrust of this thread.
As I would like to find out if it is possible to make a full set of silk strings for my five course (Urmawi) oud based upon the information in Kanz al-Tuhaf I first need to know from you danyel how far the translation by Farmer (published in 1939) is incomplete or incorrect before I commit my valuable limited stock of 'Kremer' genuine sturgeon isinglas glue to further experimentation (sturgeon fish are now a protected species under CITES so the 'Kremer' supply comes as a by product from fish farms where these beautiful creatures are raised to satisfy the 'tastes' of the rich and famous for caviar. Current cost of Kremer isinglas is over $700 per kilogram).

I would appreciate it, therefore, if you could provide a complete updated translation of the Kanz al-Tuhaf text as it relates to the making of silk strings (the gut string information would be of great interest as well), including how the strings were twisted (plain or roped).
Your first hand exeperience in actually making the strings would also be of great value for those interested enough to follow this thread.
Of particular interest is the type and preparation of the ' boiled fish glue' that you used and say is the correct translation and the preparation of the yellow 'essence of saffron' dye (or preservative?).

Time out ... more to add!


danyel - 3-9-2013 at 01:59 PM

just briefly: by "modern oud strings" I mean plastic. I do like the sound of Udî Nevres Bey or Qassabgî very much and use (as I said before); gut and copper-spun silk filament strings on my antique Turkish 'ûd. Still, I'd prefer no metal setups. BTW: Do you still have these gut/silk strings you purchased in Egypt in the early 60s? What gauges were they? How many plain, how many wound strings?

I only dissolved some saffron in the glue, to be honest. I also used hide glue; I understand that sirîshim-i pukhta (serîshem-e pokhte) is more likely to mean fish glue, but lit. just means hot (i.e. hide-)glue. sirîshimi sag-mâhî would be isinglas specifically. Again, there must have been low and high end strings in the 14th c; from what I saw at Barber's workshop, Isinglas is a gorgeous substance. He heats it in a bain de marie with a little Bombay Sapphire gin, apparently a recipe of his grand father, as far as I recall.

If you should need more, maybe this would do?
http://www.stoerleim-manufaktur.de/

I will see what I can do with the Kanz at-Tuhaf (at-Tuhaf rather than al-Tuhaf is German arabists spelling, as it is pronounced at-T..., though written al-T...)

jdowning - 3-9-2013 at 04:02 PM

Thank you danyel - that is very helpful.

Alas, the strings that I purchased in Cairo (1963/4) I no longer have for examination. I was asked the same question more recently by historical gut string researcher and maker Mimmo Peruffo. The strings were, as I recall, top three courses plain twisted gut and the three basses (silver plated) copper wound wire on silk filament. They were in paper packets and of French manufacture (printed on the packets). Not knowing much about the strings or the oud (or lute for that matter) at the time I gave them later (the gut strings at least as far as memory permits ) to Eph. Segerman, N.R.I. who I thought then would find the strings of interest in his active research program. I directed Mimmo to contact Eph. (who was due to visit Eph, that year on string related business) for more information but have had no feedback since (that was a few years ago) so I guess that the strings are no longer recoverable. The original strings that came with the oud were of similar appearance and replaced by the new strings and then simply discarded - the sad fate of all old strings - lost forever and gone to dust.

If we can use your updated translation of Kanz at-Tuhaf with reference to string making, twisting etc. that would be a great new starting point for further 'hands on' trials on this thread. With your support I am hopeful that it may be possible to replicated a set of five silk courses based upon the K.T. information alone.

I am not so sure about Barber's use of gin (or any other alcohol based additive) to supplement isinglas (or hide) glue. This would appear to be a 19th C carpenters practice of dubious value according to some contemporary account. I did question Barber about this via email some time ago but was met with a stony silence (i.e. no response). I shall look up my research notes again and post the results here for information.

Due to the high cost of isinglas I think that a hide glue alternative must be a potential alternative and should be proven if low cost silk string alternatives are to ever gain any popularity. Perhaps hide glue mixed with cheap low cost purified food grade gelatin might also be worth testing?

The problem that I have found with glues so far is that it is impossible to get the glue to penetrate a wound string by just rubbing the glue into the string - it is only a surface penetration not full saturation as implied by K.T. The only way - so far - that I have been able to achieve complete saturation of a string with a glue binder is to saturate the string with an acid based slow setting hide glue before twisting. However this is still early days.

If I succeed in making a full set (5 courses) of silk strings for my 'Urmawi' oud then this will be interesting to record to compare with the Rakov strings currently fitted (but not specifically designed for this instrument) . The Rakov strings incidently have been in place for a year or so now (at tension but unplayed) without failure. All being well I shall conduct the tests with the help of an experienced oud player later this year.
Note that the string length of this oud is only 56 cm. This will be a severe test of the capabilities of the strings. If I was to do the project again - based on my more recent research - I would choose a string length of 67,5 cm. But that is another story for another time.
On the other hand my replica Maler lute is of that string length so will be an interesting alterative test bed.

Onwards and upwards!

Jono Oud N.Z - 3-9-2013 at 05:19 PM

Hi.

You have both done incredible research in this area.

I was just reading 'Music in the World of Islam' by Amnon Shiloah and came across this.
This may not be new information at all, but I thought I would post just in case it is at all useful.

(The first part written by Chevalier Jean Chardin who traveled in Persia in 1711, referring to music in Persia).

'..the strings of their instruments are not of gut, as ours are, because it is a contamination by their law to touch dead parts of the animals; their instruments' strings are either of twisted raw silk or of spun brass' (Harrison 122:132). From the religious standpoint this statement conflicts with evidence brought by Belon in 1553...; he praised the Turks as excelling in producing bow and lute-strings from intestines (Belon 140). This discrepancy, of course might have stemmed from a divergent Sh'i interpretation or may be a residue of Zoroastrian beliefs'. (Shiloah, p.96).

jdowning - 3-10-2013 at 05:25 AM

Thanks Jono Oud N.Z. that is an example of a useful snippet of information that might help our overall understanding about both silk and gut strings. I would encourage other forum members to follow your example to post what might be relevant information on the topic and not be held back by concerns that the information may already be common knowledge.

Chardin unfortunately does not say which instruments of Persia at that time used raw silk or spun brass strings - typical though of these early texts where key information is not included.
Interesting that there might have been cultural or religious reasons for not making strings from animal intestines (at least by the early 18th C) as that situation did not seem to apply to earlier periods in the history of the oud.

I wonder why the same religious constraints did not also apply to the use of raw silk where the creature inside its cocoon of silk filament must be killed (by heat and suffocation) before it can emerge as a moth by chewing its way through the cocoon thus destroying the continuity of the silk filament?
There is however a commercial use for silk from cocoons that have been compromised in this way and that is to spin the short lengths of silk into spun thread (using a spinning wheel technique). Spun silk thread has been made for centuries and may therefore have been used for making silk instrument strings? This is another avenue for 'hands on' experimentation that I am following as spun silk thread is a lot cheaper than filament silk so might be an ideal material for producing low cost strings.

I have just come across copies of my email communications with Alexander Rakov and others concerning the making of silk instrument strings (for lute) - covering a period of two years from early 2001 to early 2003. I must spend some time going over that material again as there will be a lot of useful information in there that I have likely forgotten about.

It should be noted that silk strings can be made from raw silk (i.e. with the natural sericin gum left intact) provided the sericin is first softened in hot water prior to twisting. However - if the Farmer translations are anything to go by - the eartliest mention of oud silk strings first used by Ziryab (early 9th C) were not made in the usual (Chinese?) fashion ( ie "were not spun in hot water as was the custom") - an indication that the first silk oud strings may have been made from degummed silk, a practice that continued at least until the 14th C as confirmed by the Kanz at-Tuhaf. Further possible evidence of the use of degummed silk is the colouring of the strings also mentioned at the time of Zyriab - yellow for the Zir (top string), red for the Mathna (second course), white for the Mathlath (third course) and black for the Bamm (fourth course). Zyriab is said to have introduced a fifth course but I don't know if the additional course was also coloured. The significance of the colouring is that silk will readily accept dyes but only if the sericin gum coating has been completely removed. The other significance - yet to be tested - is that the colouring may indicate the use of (coloured) chemical salts to artificially add weight (or rather mass) to a string - an ancient practice aimed at replacing weight lost in the degumming process (silk being sold by weight).
Mimmo Peruffo (Aquila strings) has been experimenting for some time with the artificial weighting of gut strings in order to solve the lute bass string problem but I am not sure how far this work has developed. Must check his website some time for an update.

Note also that Pierre Belon (mid 16th C) mentions the colouring of the Turkish chanterelles (top strings) that he says were made from gut available in many colours - red, blue, green, yellow and white - that they were very fine (small in diameter) and could be taken as high (in pitch) as the European lute strings but that they were not translucent (as were the European lute strings).

One question danyel why are you using 'historical' European lute gut strings on your experimental ud-i akmal instrument rather than completely stringing the instrument in modern Chinese made silk strings - that you believe may have represented the correct historical stringing of your oud?

I should say again that I do not believe that any of this research work - even if it results in the making of low cost, simply made viable silk strings - will persuade most oudists today to give up on their relatively low cost bright sounding plastic and metal overspun strings - but that is not the point of this exercise of course!

Lots more to come.

jdowning - 3-10-2013 at 12:21 PM

One problem with silk strings - at least as far as bowed instruments is concerned - is that they are prone to 'hairyness' at wear points as the surface filaments are broken in use. This can be seen on the images of the Rakov treble viol string previously posted by danyel. This is not a manufacturing fault but a fact of life and neither is premature string breakage - an unfortunate burden to bear for both 'historical' gut and silk string users - particularly for the thin treble strings.

Interestingly silk strings for bowed instruments were still in popular use by violinists around the turn of the 19th/20th C in Europe. However, as violin maker Ed. Heron- Allen ('Violin Making as it was and is') wrote in 1885 "All violinplayers are familiar with the now common Acribelle (or silk) strings which are composed of an infinity of filaments of silk so twisted together and polished as to exceeed in uniformity and transparency the finest gut strings. For players troubled with perspiring hands and for hot or damp climates, they are without doubt invaluable, for they are but little affected by damp, and they make up in these respects what they certainly lack in tone. They are apt to fray and get ragged, and though it has been recommended when this is the case to draw the string quickly through the flame of a spirit (alcohol) lamp, to remove the frayed fibres, an Acribelle string once gone wrong, is ghastly with a ghastliness more easily imagined than described. The same applies to the twisted or plaited strings, sometimes known as Chinese water-cord. These are quite the best for players with hot hands and are almost exclusively used by violinists in India and other hot countries, where the ordinary (gut?) strings not only break easily, but are very difficult to keep. But of course their tone is inferior to gut"

Time out more to add

Jono Oud N.Z - 3-10-2013 at 12:54 PM

Very interesting.
I will follow this post.
Keep up the good work.

jdowning - 3-10-2013 at 03:05 PM

To continue with the silk violin string saga.

Ed. Heron-Allen was clearly not a fan of silk strings and although he was referring to silk strings for bowed instruments the same concerns must have applied to silk strings for plucked instruments - due to abrasion wear etc.
His solution to burn off the offending silk hairs may have been a standard maintenance regime for silk string users - including Chinese made strings - throughout history?
Ed. Heron-Allen does not mention where 'Acribelle' strings were made.

For information attached are images of the front and back covers of a book on learning the guitar published by Hawkes and son, London, England in 1904 - picked up a few years ago at a local antique store. There on the back cover is an advertisement for the dreaded silk violin strings. Difficult to read here due to the required image compression of this forum but they are The 'Bimba' E, 3 cut lengths price 8d (pence), The 'Excelsior' E, 4 lengths price 8d, The 'Golden Strad' 21/2 lengths price 7d, The 'Standard' E 3 lengths price 8d and The 'Standard' A 2 lengths price 10d. The side bar states that Acribelle 'Bimba' strings are "universally recognised as the best English strings, good tone, strength and durability always assured" The source of the strings is not known but likely imported - Middle East, Japan, China?) by Hawkes and Sons like the remainder of the gut strings advertised on the same page.

Checking what the prices of the strings might be today based upon the UK retail price index - inflation of the pound sterling from 1904 to 2010 is about X84 according to on-line sources. For English currency of 1904 there were 20 shillings (s) to the pound (L) and 12 pence (d) to the shilling (I grew up with the currency before it all went metric).
So the approximate price today for Acribelle strings for violin would range from $3.65 US (for the 7d package) to $5.21US (for the 10d package).
The most expensive string advertised was the copper covered gut fourth E string for double bass at 15s. 0d (i.e. 3/4 of a pound sterling) which converts to about $94US at today's prices.



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[file]26242[/file]

jdowning - 3-11-2013 at 11:35 AM

It is sometimes useful to go back over research notes and records dating back many years (in my case) as data can often be seen and judged in a different light.

A few further observations come to mind on re-reading the Ed. Heron Allen comments on silk violin strings.

The first is that the Acribelle strings were only available from Hawkes and sons of London in two sizes - top string E and second string A (I am not a violin player so assume that the tuning of the instrument is G D A E in the West?). Presumably the remainder of the strings were in gut? Interesting then that the violin could not (?) be successfully strung completely in silk - for whatever reason.

It is unfortunate that Acribelle strings are no longer being manufactured (not surpisingly perhaps) so that they might be examined and analysed. I would not be surprised, however, if somewhere in the world today that there is a violin gathering dust in its case with a packet or two of original 'Acribelle' 'Bimba' strings tucked inside the case waiting to be discovered!

One very interesting comment by Heron-Allen is that 'Acribelle' silk strings were "composed of an infinity of filaments of silk so twisted together and polished as to exceed in uniformity and transparency the finest gut strings".
If 'Acribelle' strings represented silk string construction of a much earlier period in history (and we don't know that they did of course) - then how could a viol player (or lute player even) of the 16th or 17th C distinguish between a string made of gut and one made from silk? Many of the well known commentators of the period - English lutenists Robert Dowland (1610) and Thomas Mace (1676) for example do not say that their lute strings were made of gut. They do describe the strings - colour, clearness where they were made etc. - but their descriptions might also apply, in some cases at least, to strings made from silk. So, for example Dowland emphasises the clearness, freshness, strength and uniformity of good strings. He also notes that some strings come coloured - 'seawater green', 'carnation red' and 'watchet blue' (i.e. light blue or sky blue).
Mace mentions that strings coming from Lyons were quite good for bass strings. Note that Lyons was a major centre of the French silk industry at that time.

Just pondering the possibilities!

Kanz at-tuHaf on silk strings

danyel - 3-12-2013 at 04:50 PM

Ms Brit Lib, Or. 2361, fols. 260b–262a, several others compared.
Based on the German translation by E. Neubauer (Der Bau der Laute…Frankfurt 1993) from which I deviated in various but minute details. Farsi is notoriously ambiguous. Therefore I provided lexical definitions of the most important expressions.

Fifth paragraph: On the twisting (fatl, as in a rope) of silk strings (outâr-e abrîshomîn, abrîshom: silk, musical string).

As distortion and straightness of sound (âwâz) depends on the quality of the strings and the latter are either made of twisted silk or sheep gut, it is necessary to obtain silk that is white, smooth (amlas: even, smooth, sleek), even throughout its length (motasâwî [equal, straight] l-qadr [measure, dimension, size] wa-l-ajzâ’, sing.: joz’, parts, portions, sections) and round (mostadîr-shakl. lit. circular form). It should be carefully washed and firmly spun (or dyed in an elegant colour??) (khûb: good, beautiful, elegant…firm, strong; reshte: thread, line, rope. Or roshte: coloured, dyed). It should be boiled in water and qalye [potash, black vitriol]-soap, taken out, rinsed two or three times in clear water and hung up in the shadow to dry. While twisting one should seek the sunlight. The following gauges should be observed: 64 threads (târ-e abrîshom, lit. strings of silk) for the bam, 48: mathlath, 32: mathnâ, 24: zîr, 16: Hâdd, gently (laTîf: elegant, graceful, lovely, pleasant, gentle, delicate) twisted. Thereupon one heats glue (serîshem-e pokhte) and a bit liquid essence of saffron. When it has a suitable viscosity (mo‘tadel-e qewâm; mo‘tadel: moderate, well porportioned, temperate, neither cold nor hot, equal; qewâm: consistency, substance, syrup) one applies it with a cloth of fine linen (kerbâs, fine linen, muslin, lint) until the glue thoroughly soaked through all fibres (ajzâ’, lit: parts, particles). Now one leaves it to dry.

danyel - 3-12-2013 at 05:26 PM

btw: contrary to what Rakov and you, John, are mainly looking for, viz. improved flexibility of bass strings, the early sources recommend silk strings for the upper registers and gut for the lower. (al-Kindî, Ziryâb acc. to Maqqârî, aT-TaHHân ("the stiff strings cause bright trebles and the trembling one’s the soft basses. I mean silk and gut"), Kanz at-tuHaf: "The sages agree that the bamm should be made of sheep-gut because it vibrates in all its parts." Hence we can assume that the M.E. silk strings were generally quite stiff and probably not of such complex construction as the low qin strings. Still, such strings might have existed (our sources cover 500 years and 5000 miles in a handful of paragraphs) and maybe even found their way to Lyon. Who knows, the entire silk industry was an imitation of eastern industries, as most other technical processes and gear were at that time introduced from the M.E.
Unfortunately neither Maraghî nor any other Timurid author deals with silk strings in more detail. As I insinuated before, they might have had actual Chinese silk strings or "complex" silk strings made like qin strings for the basses; maybe even loaded strings; the fact that they don't talk about it (in any surviving document) means nothing. Even the existing world maps and coordinate tables of the Ma’mûn era had to be recovered from some obscure source, passing unnoticed and unknown for centuries…

jdowning - 3-13-2013 at 06:23 AM

First of all danyel I should correct you when you say that Alexander Rakov (and now myself) are mainly looking for improved flexibility of bass strings as we are also trying to find out how to replicate the full range of strings - from treble to bass - according to the historical descriptions, inadequate as they appear to be. This requires hands on experimentation, of course, as no strings of silk or gut survive from the 17th C or earlier. If you go to the start of this thread you will find that my first attempts to replicate silk strings according to Kanz at-tuhaf started with the thinnest treble - as I figured that might be the easiest to replicate. Not so.

Also the fact that there is no historical record that Chinese silk strings of whatever construction were ever used on ouds may not mean that they never were - but you or I or anyone else cannot use 'the unproven so it must be possible' approach as justification for an idea for that is simply just speculation which carries little weight in historical research.

Thank you for the updated translation of KT. Why do you refer to a translation by Neubauer rather than your own translation of the primary source?
As there is some question about the use of both silk and gut strings on the oud, could you also provide a translation of gut string making in Kanz at-tuhaf for information. I have the Farmer version so that would be of interest to compare.

The statement in KT "the sages agree that the bamm should be made of sheep-gut because it vibrates in all its parts" to me is contradictory when the construction of all sizes of silk strings - from bamm to hadd - is described?! Is that reference taken out of context from the section describing gut strings and simply refers to the preference for sheep's gut rather than that of goat? ("As for gut strings, the gut from sheep is better than gut from goats" - Farmer translation 1939).

Also according to Farmer's translation ("Structure of the Arabian and Persian Lute", Glasgow, 1939) Al-Kindi recommends gut for the two bass courses and silk for the first and second courses - silk being stronger than gut at the higher tension that gut strings are not capable of sustaining.
On the other hand, the Ikhwan al-Safa (10th C) recommend that all strings of the oud should be made from silk - the bamm having 64 threads of silk, mathlath 48, mathna 36 and zir 27.

Usual practice for the European gut strung (?) lute was to tune the top course as high as possible in pitch (and hence string tension) while at the same time avoiding frequent string breakage. The reason for this was to give the thicker bass strings of the fifth and sixth courses (16th C) the best possible chance of producing some kind of reasonably musical sound (rather than a dull flaccid 'thud' ) - which meant operating at a much lower tension than that of the trebles (about say 2kg compared to say 4kg?). That is, the strings were not set at equal tension throughout.

jdowning - 3-14-2013 at 05:18 AM

I should perhaps reiterate that the ancient Chinese did not make their strings as described by Kanz at-tuhaf - i.e. by rubbing some sort of glue into the twisted string until the glue had soaked through all the fibres but boiled the raw silk strings in a concoction of glue (see page 5 of this thread). The Chinese method was one method used by Alexander Rakov for his experimental strings (of all diameters) although he was more adventurous in experimenting with other methods and materials as well to create viable strings.

The Ikhwan al-Safa (10th C) wrote an encyclopedia of 52 epistles (rasa'il) in four books recording all knowledge known to man at that time. Epistle 5 is concerned with music and the oud (the most perfect of instruments). English translations of Epistle 5 include 'The Epistle on the Music of the Ikhwan al-Safa', Professor Amnon Shiloah, Tel-Aviv University, 1978 and more recently 'Epistles of the Brethren of Purity, Epistle 5' by Owen Wright, Oxford University Press, 2010 (hard back £50 sterling - can't afford that).The former publication by Prof. Shiloah was once available on line for very reasonable cost around $7 or so but appears to be no longer available (except for a version in Hebrew). I guess all copies may have found their way into University libraries so are inaccessible to the general public (apparently though there is a copy in the library of the University of Ottawa Samir).
All that I have are pages 43 - 49 (representing chapter 10) of the 73 page book that is interesting to read but does not include any mention of the material or construction of the strings of the oud but discusses the relative proportions of the strings (4:3 ratio) and the significance of numbers.
Interestingly, the Brethren connect the four elements fire, air, water and earth with the four strings of the oud - fire for the Zir or treble string and earth for the Bamm or bass string. They explain that the reason that an oud is strung the way it is with the zir string lower than the bamm (with the oud held in its playing position - right handed oudist) is that the note of the bamm being low and heavy falls downward whereas that of the zir is high and light so moves upwards. This, they reason, permits the two notes to blend better and unite in perfect harmony.

danyel - 3-14-2013 at 10:51 AM

Dear John,

I think there is a major difference between the two of us. You are looking for a recipe; I am looking for esthetics. You think, if someone translates you a recipe for Sole Coquelin, you take up with Escoffier. That is not going to happen. Escoffier worked in a cultural framework. He learned his craft in real kitchens from real chefs. He actually played his oud, so to speak.
After working and eating in countless French gourmet restaurants and studying 19th C culinary culture, you might after many years develop a sense of how Escoffier would have wanted his sole to taste.

In order to interpret a text you have to establish the cultural framework; In order to establish the cultural framework of a text you have to interpret numberless texts…
My entire life is a project that might eventually (after another 45 years or so) lead to the conclusion, what kind of strings Marâghî would have expected on his oud.

After school I figured music was not a proper profession, hence I studied biology. Several years later I could not take the tedium of laboratory work any longer. It made me sick. Literally ill. I restored my health by playing the oud and by studying the confucian classics (a couple of years of university classes did not help nearly as much as actually reading, all night long, night after night, looking everything up in various (ancient) dictionaries, brushing the characters after rubbing the ink on an inkstone). Then I escaped to the Institute for History of Arabic-Islamic Sciences where I learned extremely much from E. Neubauer and Fuat Sezgin. They have all the sources in their library. They spent decades trying to make sense of some of them. After I published the musical instruments book I joined work on other projects, mainly dealing with natural sciences. I reconstructed astronomical and medical instruments. This helped me a great deal to form an idea of how M.E. scholars and artisans worked. Then I went back and reconstructed the (Timurid) ‘ûd kâmil, spending years collecting relevant materials and pondering over details. After leaving the institute in 2005 I started playing music for real.

I have to be frank, maybe blunt. Your comments irritate me. They are impolite. So please forgive me if in answering I might get carried away a little. I mean it in a caring way, as Dame Edna would say.

You judge how much weight my "simply just speculation" about Timurid silk strings carries in historical research? What do You know about historical research? You conduct tedious and fruitless experiments worthy of the academy of Balnibarbi based on rather uninformed assumptions. You make an "Urmawî-oud" based on an illustration in some manuscript made by the copying scribe, meant to annotate some terminology and not intended as a delineation of lute morphology, let alone geometry beyond the crudest scheme (you are not familiar with the manuscript copying tradition in the Islamic world, are you?). You use an American timber for the belly, because you can't be bothered to check the sources (no variety of spruce being mentioned in any of them, as opposed to cypress…)? You believe you can make good silk strings in a week? With no instructions outside some rough translation of a crude recipe? Only because you measure the exact point at which all your strings fail?
Though this be method, yet there is madness in’t. No, sorry, it's not madness, but a little stubbornness.

So how simple and "just" are my speculations? In Timurid court society everything material was either Chinese or imitating Chinese originals (probably with the exception of food and drink). Oil varnish was discovered in an attempt to copy lacquer. The miniaturists used a (Chinese) brush and (Chinese) ink, painting trees and rocks in unmistakably Chinese brush and ink technique. Ceramics and textiles were deeply influenced by Chinese models. Celadon wares and silks were imported from China (silk road!). Marâghî gives detailed descriptions of Chinese instruments, such as the "pîpâ", the strings of which he calls Hâdd, zîr… he mentions the wooden (rather than gut) frets, but does not comment upon any notable differences in string material…
Just a few examples.
I studied Timurid culture, a unique fusion of Chinese and Islamic culture, thoroughly for many years, discussed the works of Marâghî with E. Neubauer (in my book the greatest living authority in the field of "islamic" music, a great arabist and profound musicologist) and with Karîm Othman-Hassan, (a virtuoso oud player, connoisseur of antique instruments and keen observer in organological as well as cultural-historic matters) endlessly, worked on my "Timurid" ‘ûd kâmil with Stephen Barber, (nobody knows so much about historic lute-making), played that instrument with various different strings and mizrâb-ha for almost 10 years (after having played other ‘idân, lutes, the qin etc. for many years) and my judgement carries little weight in historic research? Fine, if so, please advise me how to improve my poor standard of learning. Would I have to measure the point at which my scull cracks?

jdowning - 3-14-2013 at 03:43 PM

Danyel - I am truly disappointed by your impolite response that not only fails to answer my previous basic questions (posed for clarification) but which launches into a name dropping diatribe that I can only assume is an attempt to divert attention from your apparent inability to answer my questions (perhaps because you do not want to admit in open forum that you do not know the answers?). From this I have to assume that you do not suffer lightly any challenges to your ideas or speculations!

I do question your ability to judge the perishable (and so now extinct) artifacts (e.g. ouds and their strings) and sounds of centuries past, regardless of your decades of study - not because I have any 'axes to grind' or personal prejudices.

So - to 'cut to the quick' and avoid further wasting of my time and money in 'stubborn' pursuit of 'tedious and fruitless experiments' I now want to know from you - in precise detail, chapter and verse - how you were able, from your own 'hands on experiments,' to successfully replicate (in your judgement) silk strings in strict accordance with the limited (and possibly incomplete) instructions - given by the Kanz ut-Tuhaf according to your translation (or is it that of Neubauer?). I am particularly interested in how you managed to rub a glue binder (such as hot hide glue or is it isinglas?) into a completed twisted string so that it penetrated completely the silk fibres of the string. If you can instruct me on how to make a full range of such strings in only a week that would be great. I would also like to know how your self made silk strings have stood up to wear and tear in practice (supported by photographic evidence)

On another tack (i.e. your early 16th C oud thread) I would like to know how you, or Stephen Barber or anyone else on this planet today can determine the structure (particularly the sound board) of an oud like instrument depicted in a 16th C or earlier miniature painting. Perhaps, in support of your claims, you can offer some early accounts of the geometry and sound board bracing design such as is evident in the Urmawi engraving (actually quite precise geometrically as engravers tend to be) or the related bracing layout and matching geometry of the 15th C Arnault de Zwolle lute?

Sorry to be such an irritating fellow in asking such basic questions for information. Trusting, however, that they will not result in any cranium damage!


danyel - 3-14-2013 at 04:57 PM

I was trying to explain that I am not happy with your attempt to narrow down this topic to the kind of questions and answers you expect. My entire approach is different, and for good reason: It was shaped by my "hands-on" experiences with the subject matter, in which period M.E. culture (in this case specifically Ilkhanid-Timurid) is the key to understanding the sources.

If you want answers to all your questions, learn Arabic and Farsi, I am not your dragoman.
It would also be helpful, if you read more carefully, you'd find I answered all your questions already, only not in the form you expect. I gave you an example of the difficulty in translating a short paragraph from the Kanz at-Tuhaf, I started out with Neubauer‘s extremely subtle rendition and rechecked all crucial vocabulary but I failed to spare you from your own hands-on experiments with texts in order to see that a farsi text cannot be translated into the kind of information you expect. If they had wanted to furnish you with a diagram they would have done so.

My own strings are still intact after roughly 10 years (as shown on the photograph I posted earlier), but, as I mentioned, only under low tension on dotâr like instruments. They are thin. Whether the glue soaked right through every fiber I cannot tell. I personally preferred strings I made soaking the twisted string in the hot glue and rubbing off the excess glue with a soft cloth. This issue is, however, of little significance as I am not a string maker. I use Chinese and Japanese strings on my ’ûd kâmil. There are widely differing qualities and types available, most of which far better than anything Rakov, you or I could ever dream of making. Chinese sources on string making are very frightening in their demands. They were written by literati, not artisans. The parallel with ink making is apparent (ink was one of the four treasures of a scholar: brush, paper, ink and inkstone.) I understand you rely in your knowledge about Chinese strings on John Thompson, which is good although he offers but a glimpse into a secluded world which should not be narrowed down to "the ancient Chinese boiled the raw silk strings in a concoction of glue" or any such triviality.


The Kitâb al-adwâr illustration is found in Ms. Oxford, Bodleian Library, Marsh 521. it is dated 734 H = 1334 CE, 40 years after Urmawî’s death. It is entitled "Sifat al-’ûd" (characteristics/attributes of the oud). Its geometry is not precise, but simplified. It is not an engraving. It was drawn with a qalam. Another perplexing example of your ignorance, I must say. They did not have engravings. Every single copy was handwritten and drawn by professional scribes, mostly without any knowledge of the content, only in certain cases (viz. geometry, where a lot of exact drawings were required) would a specially qualified, more expensive scribe be hired.

danyel - 3-15-2013 at 01:54 AM

some photographs of various Chinese and Japanese silk strings in order to show the scope of available material.

danyel - 3-15-2013 at 01:56 AM




danyel - 3-15-2013 at 01:59 AM




jdowning - 3-15-2013 at 11:40 AM

Thank you for the images danyel - they look rather similar to the Chinese and Japanese silk strings that I have in stock as well as the latest experimental strings made by Alexander Rakov (apart from the colour which is light brown not bright yellow). I will post images of these as well as a covered qin string (ex John Thompson) for comparison.

To go back to my posting of the 13th when I asked for clarification from you concerning the statement taken from KT "the sages agree that the bamm should be made of sheep gut because it vibrates in all its parts" implying that that the bamm string should be made of only of gut rather than silk - yet KT contains instructions on how to make from silk the full range of strings from bamm to hadd. I asked if you had perhaps taken this statement out of context from the section concerned with making gut strings where preference is expressed for sheep's gut rather than that of a goat. You have yet to respond.
KT, of course says that either gut or silk strings may be used.

For those unfamiliar with the bit about gut strings in KT here is Dr Farmer's translation:
"As for gut strings, the gut from sheep is better than gut from goats. Some say that white sheep gut is better than black gut, but this is an exaggeration .... If the gut be fine the bamm string is made for three ply, but, if coarse, of two ply. Some make the mathlath string similarly, but really it should be less than the bamm string by one ply. The strings are stained with saffron or whitewash, this being rubbed into the strings until they are dry".

The other reference to exclusive all silk stringing (according to Farmer) is in the 5th Epistle of the Ikhwan al-Safa (10th C). A copy of an English translation of the 5th Epistle by Owen Wright is available on loan from Ottawa University Library through the Inter Library Loan service so I expect to receive a copy for study within a week. I will report on what I find later. No need for me to learn Arabic or Farsi or for you danyel to feel like my personal dragoman!

Another question danyel. your six course ud-i akmal is strung all in gut with the top string only in silk. If you say that all oud strings in the 16th C came from China why are you not using Chinese gut strings for greater 'authenticity'? Do the Chinese make gut instrument strings?

You say that you have made the silk strings for your Dotar by soaking them in hot hide glue and then by wiping off the excess glue but that is not the method described in Kanz at-Tuhaf translation by Neubauer (or Farmer) where the glue binder (with essence of saffron added) is rubbed into the completed twisted string with a piece of linen until the glue has thoroughly soaked through all the fibres. The string is then left to dry. You say that it is not significant (if the glue does not fully penetrate) but it surely is if you are to replicate these strings as the glue adds mass and affects string stiffness). I am very familiar with use of hot hide glue for instrument construction and I would expect isinglas to be similar. Hot hide glue gels quickly on cooling so I am curious to know if you diluted your glue to the consistency of, say, glue size in order to have any chance of rubbing the glue binder into the string?

You allude to other sources of early Chinese string making other than those provided in English translation by John Thompson where the strings are made by boiling raw silk strings in a concoction of glue - a trivial matter you feel. Yet all of my Chinese silk strings and those made by Alexander Rakov are thoroughly glue soaked. Can you tell us something, therefore, about the alternative methods of string making described by the Chinese literati - just how are the demands 'very frightening'?

Yes I was aware that the Kitab al-adwar illustration is in the Oxford Bodleian Library and that it was added about 40 years after Urmawi's death in around 1334. Not to worry it is still the only geometrically accurate drawing of a 14th C oud.
A reasonably clear copy of the illustration that I came across was described by other researchers as a wood cut which I accepted not being in a position to check the Bodleian copy for myself. Just goes to show that one has to be careful about accepting the claims of other researchers or 'real' historians. BTW danyel have you had the opportunity to examine the original document in person to confirm that it is indeed not a wood cut/wood engraving?
Forgive my ignorance but I always thought that wood block printing and engraving was practiced by the Chinese as early as the 6th C and that by 10th C examples of wood block printing on paper began to appear in Islamic Egypt. So wood block print/engraving on wood might have been a reasonable assumption for anyone who had not actually examined the original illustration?
In any case it does not matter if the drawing was made with a pen and ink - as I shall show in my topic 'Old Oud - New Project'

Of course Canadian sitka spruce was not used as a sound board material for ouds in the 14th C and neither was Black Ash or Brazilian rosewood pegs - not because I could not be bothered to discover what woods might have been used in the 14th C but because I had these well seasoned materials to hand in quantity and I thought it better to 'walk the walk' and go ahead and build a replica rather sit around just 'talking the talk'. Fortunately I have 50 years experience in researching and making replicas of early lutes guitars and other plucked instruments such as harps so the project was not a problem to execute.


danyel - 3-15-2013 at 06:15 PM

Kanz at-tuHaf does not mention goats. It says: "Sixth paragraph: On the twisting of gut strings. The sages agree, that bam-strings should be made of twisted sheep-gut, because it can "tremble" (vibrate) in all its parts. The bam is also called "mother of strings". Intestines of male sheep are supposedly better suited than that of females (bozîne, buzîna). Some say, white mutton-gut was better than black one, but that is certainly an exaggeration." The black sheep, white sheep reference might be a political one (Aq Qoyunlu, Kara Qoyunlu tribes). Amongst "the sages" (Hokamâ‘), the (unknown) author probably had al-Kindî in mind.

The Ikhwân aS-Safâ’ don't describe string making, they just give the number of threads in each string.
Owen Wright is problematic. Though he studied the most interesting subjects throughout his life and wrote books and articles on them (on Urmawî, Maraghî, Kantemîrzâde, the Ottoman "songbooks"), he keeps messing up theory and practice and thus muddles his findings. He does not seem to understand that Urmawî devised a practical fretting for the oud (seven frets LLCLLC) on which he projects (as an original composer and oud player) the theoretical scales described by geometric fractions of string length (for which in practice one would need to fit countless frets on the oud) in a previous chapter. Thus Urmawî creates a unified modal system which was the basis of a new, avantgarde practice, so to speak. Wright confuses these two systematic approaches all the time.
His Kantemîrzâde (Cantemir) transcriptions are very valuable, though again he irritates by adding various sets of accidentals, according to Kantemîrzâde's actual notation and modern Turkish practice, which is fairly irrelevant for the matter. Even in his articles on Marâghîs notations he spoils the only extremely clear aspect, viz. the fretting referred to by Marâghîs notation (LLCLLC, being an Urmawî disciple) by muddling it with the notorious "practice" (i.e. theory), in this case even (anachronistic) preoccupation with a certain modern Iranian main stream intonation spread by Jean During.

I never said I believed silken oud strings were ALWAYS imported from China. There must have been many times and places and social strata in the history of oud playing where Chinese strings would not have been available.
I am not aware of a Chinese gut-making tradition. I once bought various gut strings from a Pakistani company, unfortunately they quit making or at least marketing them. They were quite good. I figure gut strings are more common with sheep breeding cultures, though the closer nomadic people get to China, the more they seem to rely on silk strings.

My own silk strings were made first according to Kanz at-tuHaf (rubbing the glue into the strings), then soaking. I used both kinds of strings but preferred the latter. It certainly depends on the viscosity of the glue and how generous you apply it whether the rubbing method works well. Kanz at-Tuhaf seems to be concerned that no excess glue should distort the circular cross section and even gauge of the strings. I said it is insignificant how I did it, because I am not a string maker and was just fooling around. I for one concluded I would not devote my life competing with Chinese and Japanese string makers who learned their craft from masters, often in dynastic succession over centuries, and have access to all sorts of silk and ingredients. Several Chinese sources mention how the silk worms should be fed and list the most obscure ingredients for the glue concoction. BTW Rakov refers to Japanese strings being made of degummed silk…

Jody Stecher - 3-15-2013 at 08:13 PM

Quote: Originally posted by danyel  

He does not seem to understand that Urmawî devised a practical fretting for the oud (seven frets LLCLLC) ....... Even in his articles on Marâghîs notations he spoils the only extremely clear aspect, viz. the fretting referred to by Marâghîs notation (LLCLLC, being an Urmawî disciple) …


What does "LLCLLC" mean please?

danyel - 3-16-2013 at 01:02 AM

L=limma (ca 92 cents), C= comma (ca 23 cents)

Jody Stecher - 3-16-2013 at 05:08 AM

Quote: Originally posted by danyel  
L=limma (ca 92 cents), C= comma (ca 23 cents)


The intervals! Thanks. All I could think of was "Limited Liability Company" (twice) and that didn't make sense.

jdowning - 3-16-2013 at 03:43 PM

Thanks for your response to my questions danyel.

You have confirmed that the reference to sheep's gut being the best for bam strings is only in the context of gut strings and so does not apply to bam strings made from silk.
I find it strange that Farmer mentions goat gut and that your reference to the Neubauer translation does not - yet they are both working from the same text (MS Brit Lib, Or 2361, fols 260b -262a). Have you examined the original primary source to confirm to your own satisfaction which of the two translators might be in error?
Interesting that at least one early European source does mention goat gut as being used for instrument string making

I am interested in an English translation of the Ikhwan al-Safa not only to confirm Farmer's statement that only all silk stringing was recommended as the stringing for this most perfect of instruments (the oud) but to satisfy my interest in the Brotherhood's philosophies as numerologists and other beliefs such as the universal harmony (music of the spheres).
I plan to compare the English translation work of Owen Wright with that of Prof Ammon Shiloah (if I can lay hands on a copy) as well as that of Farmer concerning Epistle 5 - particularly concerning strings. If you can provide your own more definitive translation of epistle 5 danyel - then I will certainly be happy include this in my comparative evaluation.
It should be appreciated that Owen Wright is not working alone but is supported by a team of presumably expert editorial and advisory board staff (a list is posted here for information).
I assume that you were not consulted for your comments of this work prior to its publication danyel but have you since - in the interests of fact finding historical research and according to protocol - contacted Owen Wright and his research team to point out and discuss the error of their ways (in your opinion)? Expressing those opinions on this forum will very likely not achieve such a positive objective.

I am very curious if there ever was a Chinese (or Japanese?) tradition of gut string making - which is why I asked the question. I have not researched this aspect but have a suspicion (based upon a remark once made to me by Alexander Rakov (who was in direct contact with some Chinese string makers) that the handling of animal offal (necessary for gut string making) was objectionable to the Chinese, based upon their religious (?) beliefs and respect towards animals.

If you were 'just fooling around' in your silk string making endeavours then it is not surprising that you have had to admit failure. On the other hand for Alexander Rakov this was a serious project and so it is for me.

There is a mass of information about how to successfully raise silk worm so it is really no great mystery. Oddly enough years ago as a 12 year old I once raised some silk worm from eggs to maturity - just out of childish curiosity.
Note also that some of the world's silk comes from wild - not domesticated - species that are also suitable for string making but with differing physical properties. The harvesting of wild silk in India probably predates historically even the Chinese domesticated Bombyx Mori species of moth that is no longer found in the wild.

As far as the most obscure ingredients for an ancient Chinese stringmaker's glue binder concoction is concerned - check out page 5 of this thread for a translation of one ancient recipe for identity of the ingredients. Not that knowing the identity of each ingredient makes them any easier to procure in this modern day but at least it may suggest viable alternatives.

If your strings of silk have been dyed (yellow) danyel then they must have been made from degummed silk - in which case - if they are of Chinese origin they have not been made in the traditional way. I know nothing about the Japanese traditional methods of silk string making but again, if the strings are dyed then they were made from degummed silk.

[file]26383[/file]

jdowning - 3-17-2013 at 04:54 AM

To clarify my previous posting concerning dyed silk strings - raw silk filament cannot be dyed until the natural gum sericin is completely removed by heating in a caustic or soap solution (as were the KT strings). However the glue concoction in which the early Chinese strings were boiled after being twisted can be dyed - probably any colour desired on demand in this day and age (including Saffron Yellow).
What may or may not be significant about coloured strings (silk or gut) is that the colour may be an indication that metal salts have been used to add linear mass to a string - particularly important in the case of the thicker bass strings. Degummed silk readily absorbs metallic salts in solution (a process called 'weighting' in the silk trade) and it is said that the mass increase of silk filament due to 'weighting' can be up to 400% (hard to believe). Alexander Rakov has done some experimentation with the weighting of silk strings and Mimmo Peruffo ('Aquila' strings) has done the same for gut. I am also experimenting with silk string weighting. The problem today is that the 'heavier' salts that may have been used in the past are very toxic (lead, mercury etc) - perhaps of no concern in ancient times but a definite difficulty these days. My experiments with 'weighting' will, therefore, continue to be restricted to materials that are relatively not so toxic (e.g iron, tannin etc) as well as tin and copper (less safe).

Checking back with the early translations of Chinese texts on qin string making provided by John Thompson I was unable to find a clear reference to dyeing the strings with one exception (from the 19th C Yuguzhai Qinpu text that is supposed to refer to much earlier traditional methods). In the part referring to the glue concoction there is the instruction "Or take mulberry leaves and pound them into a juice. Soak the old strings in the juice. Their colour will be emerald green". This presumably is a method to revive old strings?

It is possible also that one ingredient of the binder recipe might have dyed the glue yellow and that is the addition of white bark from the roots of a mulberry tree (pai-p'i) or just the bark from the trunk of the tree. The best silk came from silkworms fed on the leaves of the zhe tree (cudriana triloba or cudriana tricuspidata) - the raw silk being white in colour. The bark of this species of tree is said to contain a yellow dye. It is unclear however if the bark of this species of mulberry was used as part of the glue recipe or even if it was whether or not the dye might be extracted from the bark by the boiling process.

Like the early ambiguous Arabic and Farsi texts, the early Chinese texts would seem to be equally or even more ambiguous and obscure.

Some interesting commentary by John Thompson, in conversation with a Mr Huang Shuzhi, is that the string construction mentioned in the earliest manuscripts does not apparently reflect the practice of string making as it was in 1590. So there would appear to have been some some technical change and development in Chinese silk string making technology (for the qin at least). So modern made Chinese silk strings may not reflect the construction of strings as they were say in the 14th C?

jdowning - 3-17-2013 at 06:39 AM

I thought that this extract from a recent article that I wrote in FoMRHI might be of general interest here. I argued that 'catgut' (a gut string somehow supposed to always have been made from sheep's intestines) likely was once made from the intestines of - wait for it - a feline animal (i.e. a cat!). Note that Ziryab (9th C) is said to have preferred oud strings made from the intestines of a young lion.

The extract is a reference to the writings of Athanasius Kircher, Rome, 1650.
Of particular interest is that the gut used for instrument strings at that time was from the intestines of "Ram, Sheep, Goats, Cats and other animals but that the best came from the intestines of Sheep, Goat and Felines (as well as Wolves) but not cattle as their intestines are too soft and weak ".
Note that split beef intestines are often used today for making instrument strings so are not historically correct.

Kircher also mentions that instrument strings were made from silk and vegetable fibres such as flax (linen) and hemp.

My ability to read Latin never was any good so my 'free' translation here is open to correction.



[file]26396[/file]

Brian Prunka - 3-17-2013 at 08:02 AM

Thanks for all the info, John, this is very interesting.

jdowning - 3-17-2013 at 11:26 AM

My pleasure Brian. It would be great if all of this effort as well as danyel's informed input and his current work in using available silk and gut strings might eventually lead to a greater interest in and use of historically correct silk and gut strings for the oud and related instruments (as well as the lute, of course).
Greater demand might lead to lower cost silk and gut strings (but will never be able to compete in cost with the 'mass produced' plastic variety). Long way to go yet!

Brian Prunka - 3-17-2013 at 01:13 PM

I asked Mimmo about putting together some gut sets to try on the oud; he didn't want the trouble. I am going to try some from Savarez, I realize that they are not correct for the ancient music but they are probably not too far off from what the greats like Farid and Sunbati used.

jdowning - 3-18-2013 at 08:15 AM

I don't know what strings Farid and Sunbati used but from their time period as performers (around 1930 to 1970 say) it is very unlikely that they had all gut stringing. At the start of their careers it is most likely that they used plain gut for the first three courses and copper wire (perhaps silver plated or even solid silver) wound on a gut or silk filament core for the remainder.
Come the 1960's, I would be very surprised if they did not then switch to the new nylon monofilament and copper wire wound on nylon filament given these strings are relatively low in cost, greater stability, greater wear resistance and less prone to breakage.
If that is the case then it would be historically correct to use gut and wire on gut/silk basses for any oud made prior to 1960 and so designed for these strings (this would also cover surviving ouds from the 19th C). Furthermore it would also be historically correct for any oud built after 1960 to this day to use modern nylon stringing. Instruments are being developed (but not necessarily improved) all the time. Indeed if it were not for the invention of and ready availability of low cost, good quality plastic strings then the oud likely would not be as popular today as it is.

I have no experience with Savarez strings but note that they make both plain gut and wound copper wire on gut core basses so these should be OK and reasonably historically correct for any of the old surviving ouds from the late 19th C. to 1960. Otherwise stick to plastic!
Mimmo can supply 'historical' gut strings for lute covering the full range up to 11 courses. These strings are made first with high twist (for greater elasticity and flexibility) and then of gut roped construction ('Venice' style) with even greater elasticity and flexibility (covering the 4th and 5th courses). After that the strings are made of loaded gut to double the string specific gravity for the 6th and lower course. It looks as though he is now only making wound strings with plastic 'Nylgut' core.
His strings are hand polished for uniformity (not ground to a perfect cylinder like modern gut strings) and oiled (not varnished like modern gut strings)

The attached image shows how flexible gut lute strings were in the early 16th C - they came in bundles bound up like shoe laces. Try that with a modern plain gut string all stiff and packaged in coils.




[file]26397[/file]

jdowning - 3-20-2013 at 03:54 PM

During the 1970's I purchased some coils of Chinese silk instrument strings from a store in London, England specialising in oriental instruments. More recently my eldest son - on a business trip to China - was able to purchase a few more. The strings are made like a rope - three or four twisted strands, dependant upon diameter. The strings that I have measure about 10 metres to a coil in the following diameters - 0.52 mm, 0.58 mm, 0,88 mm, 1.04 mm, 1.06 mm and 1.10 mm (surprisingly few choice of diameters).

The natural colour of these 'off the shelf' strings is 'off' white to light brown - like gut.

The attached images of a Chinese silk qin bass string show the construction - a silk cord wrapping around a three or four strand roped core. The wrapping is to add linear mass without significantly affecting the string flexibility/elasticity - akin, in principle, to a metal wire wound bass string. See page 5 of this thread to see how the ancient Chinese wrapped their bass strings. No doubt today this wrapping procedure is done by machine.
It was the practice, when the wrapping became worn, to remove the wrapping and reuse the core as a smaller diameter string at higher pitch.

With the coming of the Cultural Revolution in China (1966 - 1976) good quality silk strings became difficult if not impossible to find - no doubt because any remaining traditional string makers may have been directed to take up activities more 'useful' to the State never again to return to their former craft?

[file]26444[/file] [file]26442[/file] [file]26440[/file]

jdowning - 3-21-2013 at 12:12 PM

Talking about lute strings bound up like bootlaces. My bootlaces and shoelaces are cords not twisted like Chinese ropes but braided. This type of construction is commonly used today for making very flexible and elastic ropes used for example by mountain climbers, yachtsmen, fishermen, surgeons and the like.

In smaller dimensions, braiding is used for making silk medical sutures (for stitching wounds) ranging in diameter from about 0.1 mm to 0.5 mm.
Braided cord often is braided around a central core - the core providing much of the tensile strength of the cord.

However, braided cord or rope is not a modern invention - although its mass production manufacture by ingenious machine, rather than by hand, certainly is.

More to follow.



[file]26456[/file] [file]26458[/file] [file]26460[/file]

jdowning - 3-22-2013 at 10:53 AM

But what have bootlaces got to do with instruments strings?

The scribe of the so called Capirola Lute Book of Italian lute tablature (dated circa 1520) mentions that the lute strings used by master lutenist Vincenzo Capirola were made from sheep's gut from the intestines of wether ram. He describes some of the intonation difficulties inherent in the strings due to the natural taper in the gut (the strings then were not ground to a perfectly uniform cylinder like modern gut strings). He states that this difficulty was more acute with thin than with thick strings, and even more so with 'da ganzer' strings.

Robert Dowland writing about lute strings and their choice in 1610 talks about " strings of a more fuller and larger sort than ordinary ( which we call 'Gansars'). These strings for the sizes of the great and small Meanes are very good, but the trebles are not strong" (So the Gansar strings were good for the mid range strings of a lute).

Way back in April 1995, Mimmo Peruffo (Aquila Strings) noted that in French a 'ganse' was a cord or string of braided construction (FoMRHI Comm 1351) and referred to an entry in Diderot's Encyclopedie, Volume 7 circa 1754 (see attached image).
Braided cords and ribbons in France at that time had mundane functions such as loops for tying buttons but were very popular for decorating clothing and were sold everywhere in France.
Braid came in many forms made up from materials such as gold and silver wire and silk - and were flat, round or square in section.

There is a French proverb which runs "Quand on prend du galon on n'en saurait trop prendre" (The more braid the better or You can't have too much of a good thing!). Braid was popular fashion in France!

Braid was made in much the same way as lace - tediously overlapping threads by hand on a cushion using bobbins holding the thread - or on a loom.

What is interesting, from a potential instrument (bass) string point of view, is not only the extreme flexibility of braid but the use of silk as well as metal wires often incorporated into the braid. Could it be that 'gansar' instrument strings were not only of braided construction but were weighted with metal wire to add linear mass (making them good for bass strings)- i.e. equivalent to a modern wire wound bass string but with the twisted fine wires hidden in the core of a braid? Also were the strings made only of silk filament (rather than gut) which would be better suited to making a uniform cylindrical braid than would a few strands of gut?
Making a gansar string would be more costly, require more skill to make and use more material than one of plain twisted or roped construction. The first mention of wire wound instrument strings is in England in the late 17th C - another lower cost development perhaps by more easily putting the wire outside rather than inside a string?

Any roping or braiding construction weakens a string (compared to a plain low twist string of either gut or silk) - which may explain Dowland's remark that treble gansars were not so strong?

Of course, making spun thread incorporating gold or silver wires for decorative effect in clothing is a very ancient craft so is not an invention of 18th C France - so 'gansar' strings or their equivalent might date back far earlier than the 16th C in Italy?

As part of this project I shall try to make some silk gansar braided strings for the 4th to 6th courses just to see how they may turn out and perform. After all most early sources on string making only talk about 'twisting' a string without going into detail about how it is done - and string, cord or rope can be twisted in a multitude of different ways - including braiding.

[file]26470[/file]

jdowning - 3-24-2013 at 12:09 PM

Making silk braided cord (with a core) by hand the old way is slow and tedious (but relaxing I imagine) - so here is one way to speed things up a bit!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoEv8HB9xRo

jdowning - 3-25-2013 at 04:35 AM

...... or by hand using a much simpler apparatus.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzh5leB8vHc

... or a lot faster with some practice!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnCggGQ-z3A

This is a traditional Japanese hand braiding apparatus demonsrtating the making of an 8 strand braid. The braid here is hollow being formed around a metal rod.
For this project I plan to build this style of braider modified by replacing the metal rod with a simply twisted silk core (under tension) of appropriate length for an instrument string (about a metre or so).
On completion the braided string will be boiled in a flexible glue concoction to bind the silk fibres into a uniform mass.

jdowning - 3-25-2013 at 12:02 PM

The larger diameter strings of plain silk or gut need to be flexible in order to work. This flexibility is provided by increasing the twist in the fibres of the string or by using a roped construction. Twisting the fibres lowers the tensile strength of a string - not generally a problem for the thicker strings.

On the other hand for the thin treble strings flexibility is less of a problem but string breakage is. The top treble string must be tuned to as high a pitch as possible (without frequent breakage) in order to give the thick basses the best chance of providing adequate performance. So, for maximum tensile strength there must be minimum twist of the string fibres - just enough to form a cylindrical string - or zero twist in the case of a monofilament string.

It is often useful - when trying to understand the properties of 'obsolete' materials and how they were prepared and worked - to look at other crafts or technologies, not directly connected with musical instruments - where these materials might have been employed.
In the case of silk strings this approach lead me to investigate the fields of angling (fishing) and sutures (medicine) in the pre-plastic era prior to the 1950's. It has already been mentioned that braided silk filament was once used for fly fishing lines (it still is for 'traditionalists' but the silk braided lines are now very costly) and that fine braided silk cords are used for medical sutures (the silk must be degummed for this application to avoid rejection by the bodily tissues).
However, there is another silk product - monofilament silk - that was once extensively used for fishing line leaders (to which the fishing hook was tied) and for medical sutures. This material is known as 'silk worm gut' or just 'gut' or, more confusingly 'cat gut' (perhaps a compression of 'caterpillar gut').

Silkworm gut is a strand of pure silk obtained by killing the silkworm caterpillar with acid and then stretching the silk filled glands of the poor creature to make a clear monofilament silk strand of small diameter. Over a decade ago I speculated (in the pages of FoMRHI) that silkworm gut might have been used as treble lute string called a 'Minikin' in the 17th C - predating the nylon monofilament strings of today! The 'Minikin' lute string may possibly have early Turkish connections.
The attached article that I wrote at that time (FoMRHI Comm. 1795 - see attached) is just one of many written to explore the possibilities of materials other than sheep's gut as historical alternatives that may have been used for lute strings.

At that time (2002) I first made contact with Alexander Rakov who not only was interested in exploring the same possible alternatives but resided in an area famed for manufacturing and supplying products to the fly fishing industry. Alexander, as a consequence, was able to obtain samples of materials such as 'silk worm gut' for examination and testing.

More to follow.

Note: reading through Comm 1795 again, the statement that the silk glands of a Bombyx mori caterpillar were 15 inches (38 cm) in length is a typo error (some caterpillar though!) - read instead 1.5 inches or 3.8 cm.

Attachment: Comm 1795.pdf red.pdf (883kB)
This file has been downloaded 485 times

jdowning - 3-25-2013 at 03:30 PM

Here for information - and in graphic detail - is how silkworm gut is made. In this case the domesticated silk worm caterpillar Bombyx mori is the victim - the species that was successfully used in Spain during the heyday of gut leaders for angling until nylon monofilament and other plastic leaders became generally available in the 1950's.

The silkworm species and the treatment prior to the highly skilled procedure of 'drawing' the gut into monofilament strands is critical to the properties and length of the final product.

http://www.wormspit.com/silkgut.htm

jdowning - 3-27-2013 at 05:26 AM

THe production of monofilament silkworm gut in the 19th and early 20th C (until about 1950 when nylon monofilament became generally available) was big business. The bulk of production supplied the demands of anglers for leaders on fishing lines and the remainder for medical sutures. The best silkworm gut for both applications came from Spain.

The raw gut - when prepared for use after cleaning off the yellowish natural gum (sericin) debris- was clear and came in various diameters - by being drawn though sizing dies - and in lengths generally ranging from about 25 cm to 75 cm (the latter for better quality material). However, it would appear that longer lengths were also available - reportedly up to about 275 cm in length.

At first sight this material would appear to have a potential application for treble strings on an oud or lute (just as PVF plastic fishing leaders have today). However, after further research this potential application seems to be less promising.

Spanish silkworm gut is stiff and brittle so must be soaked in water before use to make it supple enough to knot - not a problem for angling and surgical applications where the gut must remain strong after immersion in water.
The attached image demonstrates the brittleness of silkworm gut where the gut has split longitudinally when tied into a knot.

This brittleness may be due to the way the gut is prepared (soaked in acid) prior to drawing out to length although the acid may only toughen the walls of the silk sac to allow the sac (and its contents) to be stretched to maximum length permissible without breaking.
Perhaps there might be a chemical after treatment of the gut to make it more supple and more suited for an instrument string application?

The length of gut available would not appear to be a problem if available in length of a meter or longer. Attached is an advertisement for Spanish silkworm gut leaders from the American mail order catalogue of Montgomery Ward (#57 dated 1895, page 494). Note the instruction to soak the gut before use.
The lengths advertised range from 3 to 9 ft (90 cm to 275 cm) - more than enough for musical instrument applications. However, the engraving illustrating the leaders seems to indicate that the leaders are not supplied as a single length but are made up from shorter lengths knotted together (?). However, the engraving is not clear - so the question of available length remains open.

This applies to Spanish silkworm gut but what about a similar material made by other silk producing countries with a long history of sericulture such as China and Japan?

More to follow.

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jdowning - 3-27-2013 at 10:08 AM

For comparison here is the advertisement for silkworm gut leaders from the American Sears and Roebuck mail order catalogue #117 dated 1908 (page 758). Silkworm gut imported from Spain and Italy. Note again the knots in the illustration of the leaders suggesting that they were not made in one long piece.

Next to look at what the Chinese were making in the 19th C

jdowning - 3-27-2013 at 11:32 AM

There is an interesting series of correspondence from the British Foreign Office about 'Chinese Silkworm Gut' reported in the 'Bulletin or Miscellaneous Information' published by the Royal (Botanical) Gardens Kew, London, 1892, pages 222 to 227. Summarised as follows:

(Kiungechow, 1891) The silk was made from a species of caterpillar that thived on the feng tree (Liquidambar formosana, Hance) - prepared by throwing the mature caterpillar into boiling vinegar and drawing the silk glands apart to form a thread say, 5 ft long and strong enough to make a line with which to catch small fish.

(Kiungechow, 1892) In Canton the silk is called 'fish silk' or 'fish head silk'. In Hoihow it is called 'insect silk'. The best silk comes from Hainan in the mountains of the Ling-mên neighbourhood. The male caterpillar produces a single thread of better quality than the double thread of the female.

(British Consulate, Amoy, 1867) The silkworm gut drawn from the caterpillar is the sole use to which the creature is applied. For this purpose it is not reared but captured on its descending from the tree to spin its cocoon. The mature worms are steeped in vinegar for a day and then drawn out into gut which is used for fishing lines and for various economical and ornamental purposes.

(British Consul Amoy, 1867) The cocoons of the caterpillar (they are not Bombyx mori) are worked by the worm into the bark of the tree and are so coarse and thin as to yield silk of coarse texture and in small amount so is unlikely to be of interest to Western cultivators. In this district the Chinese use the worm only for the purpose of making silkworm gut. The true silkworm is only reared here in small non commercial quantities.

(Swinhoe report to Foreign Office , 1867). The caterpillars do not descend from the tree until they are ready to spin. They are then caught and broken and the silk-gut immediately extracted, steeped in vinegar, washed and drawn out. The operation must be executed without delay - if the worms are kept the gut is useless. Each gut if properly managed will draw out to 20 or 30 ft (610 cm to 915 cm). The gut is then dried in a shady place then rolled up and considered ready for use.

(letter to Kew, 1892) The gut in China is in considerable demand for making fish lines and seems so strong and serviceable that there should be a commercial use for it in England.
Charles Farlow and Co, Fishing Tackle manufacturers, London stated that the Chinese gut tested was very similar to the (Spanish?) gut that was once available years ago but perhaps not quite so brittle. In their judgement it could not be used for fishing purposes and otherwise did not know for what purpose it could be used (?)

(1892) Exports to Europe from Kiungehow of Chinese silkworm gut for making leaders for fishing lines sometimes amounted to 16,800 pounds (7,600 Kilograms)

The drawn silk was also called 'marvello hair'.

The tree on which the wild moth fed (genus Liquidambar) also provides fragrant gum resins traded in antiquity - Myrrh, Frankincense, Balm of Gilead, Mecca Balm, Styrax, Storax and others.

('Digital Taiwan' ) The moth species - originally from Hainan Island in Southern China - is the Giant Silkworm (Saturnia pyretorum Westwood) also known as the Fish-line Silkworm. Indigenous to India, Vietnam and Southern China with a domesticated breeding history dating back as early as the 9th C.
The species was introduced to Taiwan during the Japanese occupation in the first half of the 20th C for commercial production of silk fishing lines for export. The farms were shut down in 1950 (as nylon became generally available) after which the moths spread into the widerness and are now naturalised.

Chinese silkworm gut was made from a different species of moth than the Spanish variety and prepared in a different manner to produce significantly longer lengths of gut that was "less brittle". The production of the silk in China likely has a very long history but could it also once have been used in the past for monofilament treble musical instrument strings perhaps sold to the unsuspecting West as 'catgut'?

I for one would like to know if anyone has more information about this material (i.e. made, according to tradition, from the Saturnia pyretorum species of moth not Bombyx mori), if it is still being manufactured and currently available.

The Japanese were also in the market for manufacture and export of 'monofilament' silk gut for fishing leaders but made by a different process entirely - perhaps even more suited to use as treble instrument strings.

More to follow.


jdowning - 3-29-2013 at 11:56 AM

I am not sure when 'Japanese Silk Gut' first appeared on the market as a commercial product but suspect that it was after 1945 - after the end of World War 2.

The attached extract from an article in the 'Post Graduate Medical Journal', 1949 by A.M.C. Humphries, M.P.S. briefly describes Japanese Gut and its manufacture - as applicable to medical sutures.

The material also appeared, post war, as 'Silk Fishing Gut' - a 'monofilament' leader that imitated true 'Spanish' silkworm gut. The attached images are samples of Japanese gut fishing leaders that came on the market during the period that Japan was occupied by Allied forces post war (1945 to 1952). Old stock of this material is still being offered for sale on Ebay for anglers choosing to fish in the traditional way (akin to lute and oud players interested in performing with 'authentic historical' strings!).
Note that the leaders are 'waterproof' yet must be soaked well in water before use!
Note also the long unjointed lengths of about 10 yards (3 metres).

I happen to have four samples of Japanese silk gut fishing leaders of unknown age but most likely postwar. The packages are not stamped 'made in occupied Japan' so may date to some time after 1952 (until they became commercially uncompetitive with the newly introduced nylon leaders - about 1960?).

Next to examine and analyse these gut leader samples to see if they might be viable as instrument strings for the oud or lute.

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jdowning - 3-30-2013 at 12:00 PM

I have four samples of Japanese silk gut fishing leaders sent to me for evaluation as instrument strings some years ago by Alexander Rakov. They range in diameter from 0.37 mm to 0.63 mm with advertised dry tensile strength from 10 lbs force to 25 lbs force (45 Newtons to 111 Newtons) and are about 90 cm in length.
The age of the samples is not known but is likely to be about 50 years old.

The leaders are semi transparent 'misty' grey in colour - stiff and springy - just like monofilament nylon in appearance. Unlike Spanish silkworm gut the leaders can be tied dry into a tight knot without need for soaking in water and without breaking.

A small sample was boiled in water for several minutes to dissolve the binder and reveal the silk filament construction. The filaments were so thoroughly saturated in the binder that this treatement did not remove all of the binder.

According to the Humphries article on Japanese gut previously posted, the binder used on Japanese Gut is a mixture of animal glue and an extract from seaweed. The seaweed extract is most likely Agar-Agar a gelatin - like animal glue. It is extracted from red seaweed, solidifies at 37 °C, insoluble in cold water but dissolves readily in boiling water. Absorbs water up to 20X its own weight. Sets to a firm gel at concentrations as low as 0.5%.
It is not eaten by bacteria so is used as a culture medium in laboratories (Petri dishes).

According to Humphries the critical proportions of binder to silk filament are 85% silk to 15% binder for optimum strength. The uniformity of the diameter of the leaders suggests that during manufacture the leaders were passed through sizing dies.

The specific gravity of the samples under test was determined by measurement of leader length and diameter and by 'weighing' . The calculated S.G. is 1.36.

The relative transparency of the leaders indicates that they may have been made from degummed silk filament?
So - to all intents and purposes - Japanese gut may be nothing more or less than a low twist silk filament string made with a glue binder - akin to the early strings described in Kanz at-Tuhaf or perhaps the late 19th C Acribelle silk violin strings?

On the other hand Humphries implies that raw silk was used. He states that the silk is reduced to a semi liquid state when boiled with the glue - but more likely it is the sericin natural gum coating that becomes semi liquid not the silk filament (fibroin). Also the gut leader package states that the gut is made from the finest virgin (not degummed?) silk - perhaps again implying that raw silk was used?

Next to test the 0.37 mm diameter leader as the top string on a lute.



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jdowning - 3-31-2013 at 11:13 AM

The gut sample has been fitted for testing as the first course on a lute of 60 cm vibrating string length - pitch f' (350 Hz) - equivalent to the maximum pitch allowable for a plain gut string.

While tuning up the string to pitch the sound was quite promising but the string broke at around a tone below full pitch - equivalent to a string tension of about 2.3 Kg.f.
The break occurred between the tuning peg and nut - the point of highest tension with the string being raised in pitch (the tension being somewhat higher than that derived from the pitch).

The breaking load was measured on a test rig under direct loading conditions giving a value of 2.6 Kg.f the breaking load equivalent to an ultimate tensile stress (UTS) of about 0.24 GPa.

The advertised breaking load of the gut leader is 10 lb.f or about 4.6 Kg.f. giving a UTS of about 0.42 GPa. If the string manufacturer provided a reasonable safety factor of say 20%, the UTS of the string originally would have been about 0.5 GPa which is an average value for raw Bombyx mori silk.

The test string therefore failed at a value of less than half the original tensile strength.
Why such a discrepancy? Did the manufacturer provide false information about the breaking load of the gut or is there some other explanation for the failure.

Daylight and sunlight contain levels of ultraviolet light that are not only dangerous to unprotected exposed skin - more so these days than in the past - but also destructive to both natural and man made fibres. Silk is one of the most sensitive materials susceptible to damage due to UV exposure - the thinner the fibre the greater the damage - somewhat less so for raw silk where the sericin gum coating can provide some degree of protection against degradation.

Checking out another technology for information.
Parachutes are made these days from nylon fabric but were once made from silk. The severity of degradation for nylon parachute fabric exposed to summer sun is a loss in breaking strength of 52% after one week, 71% after two weeks and 94% after three weeks exposure. The degradation of silk parachute fabric is even more severe.
For this reason parachutes used by the armed forces are given a service life or limited to a certain number of jumps. For the older type of silk canopies service life was usually 7 years. Tests on 15 year old silk parachute canopies (non continuous exposure to daylight) showed that their strength had fallen to 30% below original specification.
Sky diving anyone!

The age of the gut under test is about 50 years and it has been kept in transparent pakages so will have experienced at least some (but an unknown level) exposure to daylight. The loss of strength, therefore, is most likely due to ultra violet degradation of the silk over time made worse by the transparency of the gut.

So store all of your instrument strings - nylon, gut or silk - in dark envelopes in a drawer away from daylight exposure - particularly the thin treble strings. Thicker bass strings are less liable to degradation than thin strings. Dyes - particularly the darker colours - may also afford some protection against UV degradation.





jdowning - 3-31-2013 at 12:04 PM


It is doubtful, if the once viable Chinese drawn Saturnid silkworm gut cottage industry survived the total war and post war situation in that country (1937 to 1950) despite efforts to re-establish the industry in Formosa (now Taiwan).

The Japanese - like most other silk producing countries - did not appear to be successful in producing drawn silkworm gut that was able to compete with the Spanish material. However they were able to offer their own version of silk gut for the international angling market - made from silk filament with a glue binder.
We do not know the source of 'Acribelle' violin strings that were available around the end of the 19th C but I would guess that the Japanese gut silk fishing leaders that appeared on the market post WW2 were those very 'Acribelle' strings - simply a convenient dual purpose adaptation.
This connection between fishing leaders and instrument strings is of course applicable today where PVF fishing leaders are successfully being employed as instrument strings.

Interestingly there is a much earlier historical precedent for this practice.
The famous English diary writer Samuel Pepys made the following entry on March 18, 1667:
" This day Mr Caesar told me a pretty experiment of his, of angling with a 'minikin', a gut string varnished over which keeps it from swelling and is beyond any hair for strength and smallness"

A 'minikin' was a small diameter treble lute string of the time. The usual practice then was to use horse hair for fishing leaders - hence Pepys's interest. Presumably the lute string in question was made from sheep's gut waterproofed with a coat of varnish. It is not known from this description if minikin strings were protected with varnish applied by the string makers or if Mr Caesar found it necessary to varnish the string for his angling application.

The hair from the tail of a horse can range from about 0.1 mm to 0.28 mm in diameter. Samples of horse hair that I have to hand range in diameter from about 0.1 mm to 0.26 mm.
It is hard to imagine that a gut top string of a lute could be as fine as even 0.28 mm in diameter let alone thinner. Perhaps the work horses in 17th C England were a sturdier breed with much thicker tail hairs than horses today? Or was Mr Pepys just exaggerating?

jdowning - 4-1-2013 at 12:15 PM

The limited 'shelf life' of silk filament (due to deterioration when exposed to adverse environments) is something that probably should be taken a bit more seriously for these experiments.

Weak acids are more damaging to the fibroin than weak alkalis so I should probably discontinue trials with acid based flexible hide glues as well as chemical weighting - the latter being well known for its destructive effect on silk fibres. This will restrict future testing to untreated binders (but include alkali based flexible binders) and loading with metal powders or thin wires incorporated into the inner core of bass strings.
Dyeing of the string binder may also provide a significant protective barrier against ultra violet penetration (which might have been one reason for colouring the strings of an oud?). This would apply to strings made from either raw or degummed silk - both requiring a binder of some kind.

The treble strings made by Alexander Rakov that I have to hand are nicely made - smooth, uniform, and simply twisted from raw silk cooked up in the Chinese way. They look like gut strings in colour.

The coil of 0.45 diameter silk string will be tested as the first course on one of my lutes with 60 cm vibrating string length at f' pitch (A440 standard) which should be about the upper practical limit for the string at about 35 Newton tension (3.6 kg.f) - a bit on the high side but we will see how it goes.
The density of the string was measured and calculated to give a Specific Gravity of 1.26 - a bit on the low side for a string made from raw silk but within the range expected, silk being a variable material.

jdowning - 4-9-2013 at 12:00 PM

I have yet to prepare isinglas (fish swim bladder or sound) as a glue binder so am not sure how it will turn out (and there is really only one way to find out). Before doing so there are a number of interesting early accounts on preparing the glue for various purposes.

In "The Art of Making Various Glues" by M. Duhamel du Monceau of the Royal Academy of Sciences, Paris, 1771 is the interesting statement that 'Fish glue is still used to gloss fabrics of silk and especially ribbons. The Gauze-workers use it a great deal'. Fish glue in this context is isinglas. This not only suggests that isinglas glue is flexible (when combined with silk fabrics and braided ribbons) - but it is tempting to make an association with 'ganser' braided strings and use of isinglas as a binder.

A further entry - When used for sealing fabrics the glue is prepared in the usual fashion by heating and dissolving in water to which brandy (eau-de-vie) is then added.

Another entry refers to isinglas dissolving more quickly in wine (than water) and even better in brandy - a glue that is quite different from Strong-glue (hot hide glue?) which does not dissolve at all in alcohol.

Another reference to alcohol modified isinglas glue can be found in 'The Mechanic or Compendium of Practical Inventions - Volume 1' Liverpool ,19th C under 'The Manufacture and Uses of Isinglass' page 333 - where it is stated that the isinglas is first broken into small pieces and then immersed in common gin (ethyl alcohol/water), placed near a warm fire and then shaken frequently until the isinglas is fully dissolved. "This strong glue will keep for many years and is a very convenient preparation for a number of purposes. By warming, it becomes fluid and fit for use"

jdowning - 4-13-2013 at 12:14 PM

The 'on loan' library copy of 'Epistles of the Bretheren of Purity, Epistle 5' by Owen Wright, O.U.P. 2010 has arrived and I have had a chance to briefly read those parts concerning oud strings - so will take time out here to review and analyse the information. Previously, I only had part translations by G.H. Farmer and Amnon Shiloah to refer to. The full translation includes some critical information omitted from the part translations but otherwise is in agreement with the latter.

The Ikhwan al- Safa describe an oud as having four strings (double courses?) - no more no less. The thickness (diameter) of the lowest string (Bamm) is 4/3 the diameter of the third string (Mathlath) which is 4/3 the diameter of the second string (mathna) which, in turn is 4/3 the diameter of the highest string (Zir).

From this it is further stated that the lowest string should be made from 64 threads of silk, the third 48 threads, the second 36 threads and the highest 27 threads. The string lengths are equal but their thicknesses (diameters) will differ according to the ratio 64:48:36:27.

The four strings are tuned a perfect fourth apart.

The highest string is first tightened as much as it can go without breaking before the other strings are tuned from it.

Strings that are identical in diameter, length and tension when plucked will sound identical. If they are identical in length (and tension?) but different in diameter, the sound of the larger diameter strings will be lower than the thinner strings. If the strings are identical in length and diameter but different in tension the sounds of the tenser strings will be higher than the the sounds of the slacker strings.

That's it - so let's see what might be deduced from this limited information concerning string design of a 10th C oud according to the Ikhwan al-Safa.




jdowning - 4-18-2013 at 12:16 PM

The first important bit of information is that the top string - Zir - is tuned to as high (a pitch) as it will go without breaking. This was also the instructions for tuning the all gut strung European lute in the 16th C - the reason is to give maximum latitude for the thicker bass strings to sound reasonably well.

The second is that the strings were made only from silk.

The third is that the four strings were tuned a fourth apart.

The fourth is that the string diameters increased in steps of 4/3 from treble to bass i.e. in the ratio 64:48:36:27

The fifth is that the strings were all made from silk filament and binder of the same density as there is no mention of density as it affects the vibration of a string - only string diameter, string length and string tension.

Taking a practical example and assuming that the string length of an Ikhwan al-Safa oud is 63 cm. Silk is a variable material but similar to plain gut in density - assumed here to be 1.3 grams/cm² - and other properties.
If an arbitrary pitch standard of a semi tone below modern A440 is assumed, the maximum pitch of the zir string would be f' (329 Hz) taking a silk string as comparable to gut.

From these assumptions the tuning of the oud strings would be - Zir to Bamm - f'( 329 Hz), c' (247 Hz), g (185 Hz), d (139 Hz).
If the Zir string is assumed to be 0.45 mm in diameter then according to the ratios given by the Bretheren, the other string diameters would be 0.6 mm, 0.8 mm and 1.07 mm.
Given equal tension and string density - these diameters agree with the diameters calculated using the Mersenne-Taylor law for vibrating strings. As the frequency of vibration of a string is inversely proportional to string diameter (length, tension and density being constant) then the tuned frequencies of the strings are related by the 4/3 ratio (i.e. 139 X 4/3 = 185, 185 X 4/3 = 247 and 247 X 4/3 = 329).

All well and good but now comes a puzzle. The Bretheren go on to give the number of silk threads required to make each string as Zir 27, Mathlath 36, Mathna 48 and Bamm 64 - 4/3 ratio again, 64:48:36:27. The problem is that the diameter of a bundle of silk threads depends upon the cross section area of the bundle which is the number of threads X their c/s area.

So, taking the calculated c/s area of the 27 threads in the 0.45 mm Zir string as the c/s area of the silk threads to make the remaining strings - their diameters would be 0.50 mm, 0.60 mm and 0.70 mm - far short of the required 0.6 mm, 0.8 mm and 1.07 mm mentioned above.

So did the Ihwan al-Safa get their geometry wrong in trying to demonstrate the universal application of the 4/3 ratio - or is there another explanation for the apparent discrepancy?

More to follow

Brian Prunka - 4-18-2013 at 09:06 PM

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning  

So did the Ihwan al-Safa get their geometry wrong in trying to demonstrate the universal application of the 4/3 ratio - or is there another explanation for the apparent discrepancy?

More to follow


I was curious about this and expecting this result as soon as I read your previous post. It seemed to me that applying 4/3 ratios to string diameters was more likely to be idealistic philosophy than empirical observation of actual practice.

Curious to know what else you have up your sleeve!

jdowning - 4-19-2013 at 12:18 PM

Provided the string length, string tension and string material density remain constant for the strings tuned a fourth apart then the 4/3 relative increase in string diameters given by the Ikhwan al-Safa is in agreement with the Mersenne-Taylor Law.
What does not seem to make sense is the relative proportions of the number of silk threads required to make the strings - these being in the same ratios as the string diameters (64:48:36:27) according to the Bretheren.

Silk strings being made of a multitude of silk filaments must be twisted to form a uniform cylindrical string. Twisting the bundle of filaments increases the string diameter - the greater the amount of twist the greater the diameter increase to a limit where the amount of twist causes filament (and string) failure. Twisting a bundle of filaments reduces the tensile strength of a string (the outer filaments being stretched more than the inner filaments) so that the top string should be made with as little filament twist as possible.

From limited trials reported earlier in this thread, the maximum diameter increase related to twisting the filaments is about 10% to 12%. Minimum amount of twist to form a cylindrical string is about 2% to 5%. More testing will be required to confirm these figures.

So for our example twisting the thread bundles of the second, third and fourth strings measuring 0.5, 0.6 and 0.7 mm diameter (made from 36, 48 and 64 threads respectively) increases their diameters to a maximum of about 0.6, 0.7 and 0.8 mm respectively.

Time out - more to follow

Brian Prunka - 4-19-2013 at 12:53 PM

Yes, but that assumes that equal string tension on all strings is a desirable result, which is not the case in my experience. There are many other factors affecting perceived tension, as well as the loudness, projection, and tone quality of each string.

Of course, silk strings could possibly work well this way, but given there are many reasons why it might not it seemed unlikely to me. Add to that the historical tendency of theorists to prescribe "ideal" practices that often do not correspond to the usual practices of musicians, and I become suspicious when I come across an ideal mathematical correspondence such as this (in regards to resurrecting the actual historical practices of musicians).

Regardless, fascinating stuff, thanks for taking the time to share this with us. Looking forward to reading about the rest of your discoveries.

jdowning - 4-19-2013 at 05:23 PM

No, it has not been assumed that equal string tension is a desirable result - the assumed equal tension is just a starting point for this discussion - which, as has now been demonstrated, clearly does not work by only increasing string diameter through twisting the string filaments (at least based upon limited experimental data so far).

So what are the alternatives - according to the Mersenne-Taylor law?

1) Increase the linear density of the strings - by perhaps wrapping additional (but an unspecified mass of) silk material around a core made from the number of filaments given by the Bretheren (like the Chinese wrapped strings)

2) Reducing string tension for the thicker strings.

Both of these options were explored earlier on this thread (page 4) concerning the Kanz al-Tuhaf silk strings where there is a similar difficulty with thread count versus string diameter.

The Bretheren make no reference to string density as it affects string vibration (so perhaps option 1 can be discounted for lack of other evidence to the contrary) but they do state (what appears to be obvious given equal density)) that if the strings "are identical in length but different in tension, the sounds of the tenser ones will be higher and the sounds of the slacker ones lower"

So, looking at option 2) and assuming string tension has to be varied in order for a uniform density (1.3 gm/cc) monofilament silk string set of maximum twisted diameters 0.45, 0.6, 0.7 and 0.8 mm to achieve pitches f' 329 Hz, c' 247 Hz, g 185 Hz and d 139 Hz, string tensions would have to range from about 35 Newtons down to about 21 Newtons for the thickest Bamm string. Would this work satisfactorily? I don't know (yet) - it would depend to some extent on the flexibility of the thicker strings, the acoustic response of the oud and the judgement of the listener.
The perception of a 10th C musician in judging the 'ideal' sound (i.e. one that works well) of an all silk strung oud is very likely to be far different than that of a modern musician brought up on the sound of plastic/metal wound strings at higher than historically possible tensions (and electronically amplified to boot)?

BTW the physics of strings as expressed by the Mersenne- Taylor law is not some kind of idealised historical mathematical concept.






jdowning - 4-26-2013 at 12:19 PM

So - to recap for this example:

The silk thread bundles given by the Ikwan al-Safa are in number 27, 36, 48 and 64 yielding calculated untwisted diameters of 0.45 mm, 0.5 mm, 0.6 mm and 0.7 mm. The required target diameters according to the Bretheren's specified 4/3 ratio diameter increases (and the Mersenne-Taylor law for equal tension and 1.3 string material specific gravity) are 0.45mm, 0.6 mm, 0.8 mm and 1.07 mm for pitches (at A 415 standard) of f' 329 Hz, c' 247 Hz, g 185 Hz and d 139 Hz.

Twisting a bundle of filaments to form a cylindrical string shortens the original untwisted string length and increases the string diameter - the greater the amount of twist the greater the increase in diameter. The volume of material - before and after - remains the same
The big question is can simply twisting the filament bundle result in sufficient increase in diameter to meet the target diameters (equal tension). Based upon experimental data posted earlier on this thread the answer would appear to be negative for the second, third and fourth strings as these will only increase in diameter (with simple twisting) to 0.56 mm, 0.69 mm, and 0.83 mm (diameter increases ranging from about 12% for the Mathna to about 18% for the Bamm).

There is another alternative to increase the diameter further for the larger diameter strings and that is to use a multistrand roped construction - Chinese style. The Chinese roped strings (for the qin at least) were made either from three or four strands. The early Chinese texts state that when twisting their strings, the original untwisted length is reduced by 40% - this being equivalent to a calculated diameter increase of about 29% . If it is assumed that the third string (Mathlath) is made up of three strands of 16 threads twisted together like a rope and the Bamm string is likewise made from four strands of 16 threads ( 3 x 16 = 48 and 4 x 16 = 64) then the calculated twisted diameters would be 0.77 mm and 0.90 mm respectively. Still not enough.

So, if the 64,48,36 and 27 thread count strings are to work string tension must be reduced from treble to bass (in accordance with the observations made by the Brethren concerning string vibration and the Mersenne-Talor law).
This is how things work for all gut strung lute string tensions and so is valid for the oud.

So if the Ikhwan did not get their geometry wrong (in relating string thread number ratios to string diameter ratios) they may be telling us something important about how the strings were twisted and constructed.

This being the case, the following string construction/tension is proposed for this example - all silk:

Zir string - simply twisted, minimal twist. Diameter 0.45 mm string tension 35 Newtons.

Mathna string - simply twisted, maximum twist. Diameter 0.56 mm, tension 31 Newtons.

Mathlath string - simply twisted, maximum twist . Diameter 0.69 mm, tension 27 Newtons.

Bamm string - roped, four strand. Diameter 0.90 mm, tension 25 Newtons.

Alternatively if the Mathlath string was made of a three strand roped construction the diameter would be 0.77 mm and tension 33 Newtons. This would result in an uneven relative reduction in string tension so has been rejected as an alternative.


jdowning - 4-27-2013 at 12:17 PM

Note that the proposed string design configuration for this example is based upon the Ikhwan al-Safa constraints on string thread count (64, 48, 36 and 27).

Otherwise, if more silk threads than the 4:3 ratio are used as string diameter increases it would be possible to make all of the strings of simply twisted construction (i.e. no roped construction strings required) - increasing the degree of twist for the thicker strings in order to maintain adequate linear flexibility.

Taking plain, simply twisted gut strings for comparison, the potential maximum tonal range (for this example, 63 cm string length) would be from a high f' (low twist) string to a low F (high twist) string - or a potential maximum of two octaves (source N.R.I.).
Plain, simply twisted silk strings should have a similar performance - a tonal range f' to c - over four courses for this example - being well within the potential two octave maximum range.

jdowning - 5-19-2013 at 12:06 PM

Out of curiosity I have calculated the approximate Helmholtz resonance frequency for an Ikhwan al- Safa oud bowl using the previously posted example with an assumed 63 cm string length (28 finger units of 2.25 cm) and sound hole of 4 units or 9 cm in diameter (or 4.5 cm radius)

The calculation procedure is covered in detail on page 10 of the 'Old Oud - New Project' topic on this forum.

http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=8488&pa...

The proposed geometry of the Ikhwan al- Safa oud is discussed here:

http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=11186&p...

The resonance frequency of the bowl cavity/sound hole relationship is proportional to the square root of the sound hole area divided by the volume of the bowl cavity x the equivalent thickness of the sound hole (assuming that the Helmholtz formula - applicable to the resonance frequency of a sphere with a short cylindrical neck - is approximately equivalent to the oud relationship).

To calculate the volume of the bowl precisely from the geometry requires a knowledge of integral calculus - a useful branch of mathematical science that I once knew reasonably well but have long since forgotten. So, in order to calculate the volume of the bowl I must resort to what might be called 'macro integral calculus' - where the volume of the upper part of the bowl is determined from the calculated volume of individual slices added together. As the section of the bowl is semi-circular, the volume of each slice is half the area of a circle of the radius of the slice multiplied by the thickness of the slice - here taken to be a finger unit or 2.25 cm. The calculated volume does not include the neck block that is assumed to be 2 finger units thick (4.5 cm).
The volume of the lower part of the bowl is a quarter of a sphere so is easily determined from the radius of 8 units (or 18 cm) - i.e. 1.05 X radius cubed or 1.05 x 18 x 18 x 18 = 6,107 cm³.
So to cut a long story short, the volume of the lower part of the bowl works out to be 6,107 c.c. and the upper part 10, 524 c.c. for a total volume of 16,649 cubic centimetres.
The sound hole area is 3.142 x radius squared or 3.142 x 4.5 x 4.5 = 63.6 cm²
The 'equivalent length' of the sound hole is the sound board thickness + 1.7 X soundhole radius. Assuming a sound board thickness 2mm (or .02 cm) gives an equivalent length of 0.02 + 1.7 x 4.5 = 7.75.

These figures give a calculated Helmholtz resonance frequency of the bowl cavity/soundhole diameter of about 122 Hz.

Assuming an arbitrary pitch standard of A415 (a semitone below modern concert pitch A440) the tuning of the individual courses a fourth apart is - as previously posted - f' 329 Hz,
c' 247 Hz, g 185 Hz and d 139 Hz. However, if the pitch standard assumed is three semitones below A440 (i.e. A370) then the fourth course pitch is 122 Hz.

So what does this all mean?
This frequency happens to coincide with the calculated Helmholtz resonance frequency of the bowl and so will result in a volume amplification of the sound of the thicker (less resonant) fourth course.

Interesting!

jdowning - 5-21-2013 at 11:58 AM

"Die Guitar und Ihr Bau" by Franz Jahnel was published in 1963 and covers the technology and design of the guitar, lute, mandoline and other fretted instruments as well as string technology applicable to these instruments including gut and silk strings (Section F, part III).
Herr Jahnel mentions that in modern times (from the late 19th C) plain silk strings have been treated with chemicals to dissolve the outer silk filaments of a string to make the string smooth (and more durable by protecting the inner layers against dirt and abrasion?).
(Silk protein (fibroin) will dissolve in strong acid or alkali solutions from which it can then be reconstituted - a method used today for spinning fine filaments of silk for construction of bioengineered materials used for medical applications).
The C.A. Müller Company of Markneukirchen, Saxony patented a process in 1925 where the silk filaments of a strings would be soaked in a solution of dissolved silk fibroin prior to being twisting into a string and dried at 115°C.

At the end of this brief article on plain silk string technology, the author mentions that during this period silk strings were being made smooth and transparent by many simpler methods that nobody thought worthy of patenting. Silk strings prepared in these ways were made in Vogtlande and Schönbach, Bohemia. Production of these strings ceased by the 1950's after plastic strings became available. "They appear from time to time as e' and a' strings for violins but are not really recommended".
So here - quite likely - is the source of the dreaded silk 'Acribelle' violin strings mentioned earlier in this thread.
Unfortunately, the method of manufacture still remains unknown but is probably similar to the Japanese fishing leader product mentioned earlier.
The moral here is if you do not want people to copy your invention or secret process do not patent it!

The possibility of using a reconstituted silk protein solution rather than glue as a binder for plain silk strings might be worth investigating further.

narciso - 5-24-2013 at 02:52 AM

These are fascinating postings! Thanks!

Just wondering about the last comment above:
Reconstituted silk, after setting, presumably does not have the rubber-like elastic modulus of the traditional binding agents gum arabica or animal glues. I wonder if that is an issue wrt playability concerns for a lute/guitar string?

Surface tension of the silk dope will also be a factor during spinning, affecting to what extent it can be drawn in air or in a liquid solvent as can the traditional binding agents.

Anyway, after reading through your remarkable discussion I couldn't resist a bit of kitchen experimenting to see if I could get a basic string-binding effect using supermarket gelatin, the most readily available protein glue these days!

I twisted together filaments of nylon sewing thread and drew them through a tub of gelatin kept warm in the liquid state (about 60C). I found I could get a surprisingly uniform coverage, fixing the twist nicely as the gelatin cools.

I suppose the gelatin surface tension must be in some way optimal, along with the conveniently very short open time, (under 30s in my case) for this to be at all manually feasible




jdowning - 5-24-2013 at 04:16 AM

Good for you narciso! I would encourage others to follow your example, experiment with making strings and report back their experience on this forum for information.

Food grade gelatin (made from bones) can be used as a glue similar to (but weaker than) conventional woodworkers hide glue (also a gelatin) - so could also be the basis of a binder (I have experimented with Knox brand gelatin as a binder ingredient). One advantage of pure food grade gelatin is that it is crystal clear - although the coloured material (Jello brand) would also be OK for experimentation.

It is important that the binder completely saturates the filaments of a string rather than just the outer strands. This might best be achieved by soaking a twisted string for some period of time in the hot binder solution and then squeezing the string through a sizing die of appropriate diameter to produce a cylindrical string of uniform diameter. The die might be cooled to immediately chill the binder as it passes through. A non uniform string would likely be false in intonation when stopped on a finger board.

I have no experience yet with reconstituted silk but I do not plan to spin the material into a thread (that requires technology beyond my means) only to saturate the filaments with it as a binder in place of glue.

Hide glues (and gum arabic) are hard and brittle when cured but - as I have mentioned earlier in this thread, for hide glue at least - can be treated to be 'rubbery' in consistency if required. Note that the silk filament itself (like gut) has rather poor elasticity (i.e. once stretched does not return to its original state) so elasticity of the binder may not be a critical factor. Indeed the ancient Chinese silk qin strings were made by using the natural gum coating (sericin) of the silk filament as the binder - and sericin is quite brittle.

jdowning - 5-25-2013 at 11:47 AM

It might be worth mentioning that 100% pure silk fibroin is readily and widely available in a purified fine powder form (silk powder!) that is soluble in water (and other solvents no doubt?). It is used as an additive for cosmetics and soap (makes the skin feel soft and 'silky' apparently) so should be relatively safe to use.
It does not seem to be a very expensive product (and for string making only small quantities per string are required). This - as a convenient starting point for making a binder - might save a lot of trouble and experimentation in avoiding the preparation of silk in solution prepared from raw silk.

From an historical perspective, if dissolved silk can be used as a binder for silk strings (yet to be demonstrated) then - as the chemicals required to dissolve the silk were well known to the ancients (e.g. wood ash dissolved in water - known as lye) - it is within the bounds of possiblity that they might also have made their silk strings with this kind of binder (although there is no historical record confirming that they did).

Reconstituted silk can be made from low value silk wastes - silk that otherwise cannot be used for woven textiles - so is commercially important as the percentage of silk waste in the industry is significant.

For these trials I plan to make reconstituted silk from discarded, worn out silk clothing fabric as well as to test silk powder.



narciso - 5-27-2013 at 03:27 AM


Looking forward to the results of your trials!

Curiosity piqued, I browsed around a little for accessible science literature to back up the idea that (at least in this context) reconstituted silk can be manipulated like animal glue or a gum solution:
There certainly do seem to exist quite extensive molecular-level similarities between silk fibroins and collagen (i.e., the protein component of bone glue).
Both have very long amino-acid sequences which assemble in solution into supramolecular fibrils.
The fibrils in both cases can apparently be readily coaxed into a similar gel form by controlling pH, salinity, temperature.

Moreover, a lot of the literature seems to be touting biomedical application of reconstituted silk specifically as a suture-forming material, so very much a sort of ersatz collagen


jdowning - 5-27-2013 at 04:32 AM

Note that for bioengineering applications silk sutures and film must be free of any sericin gum as this will cause problems due to contamination of organic tissue that it is in contact with. Not a problem for strings, of course, unless the sericin prevents proper adhesion of the reconstituted silk - in which case the string filaments must first be degummed.


jdowning - 6-9-2013 at 12:15 PM

I have a quantity of worn out silk fabric (courtesy my wife) to experiment with and , hopefully, find good use for as reconstituted silk for string making. The label attached to the 'donated' fabric declares that the material is 100% silk. My wife tells me that she thinks it is raw silk but I have some doubts about that as the material has been dyed a buff colour. So could it be 'wild' silk ie not from the domesticated Bombyx Mori species? It would seem from further preliminary research that the species of silk moth does matter when it comes to dissolving silk with chemicals.

The first step is to determine if scrap silk fabric is indeed real silk rather than a synthetic plastic 'look alike' material such as Rayon or Nylon.
There are a couple of established tests to determine real silk.

The first is the 'burn test'. An open flame apllied to a silk thread will cause the thread to burn until the flame is withdrawn. The end of the thread will form a brittle ball of ash - see attached image.

A chemical test is to use a so called 'silk reagent' in which a thread of Bombyx Mori silk will dissolve in a matter of minutes. Apparently this test also distinguishes domesticated from wild silk - the wild silk presumably not dissolving (or at least not so quickly?)

The silk reagent is made from chemicals readily available 'off the shelf' from local pharmacists or hardware stores - chemicals that are, nevertheless, not always non hazardous/non poisonous to use - so caution advised!
List of chemicals:
- Copper Sulphate crystals - from local pharmacy - poisonous.
- Sodium Hydroxide (caustic soda) pellets - from local hardware store for cleaning drains and general cleaning work - corrosive.
- Glycerin - from local pharmacy - non poisonous.
- distilled water - local harware store, for battery top up - non poisonous.

Dissolve 16 grams of Copper Sulphate in 150 cc water and add 8 grams Glycerin. Then add Sodium Hydroxide pellets slowly, bit by bit (this is a strongly exothermic (heat generating) reaction so ALWAYS add the sodium hydroxide to the solution NEVER add the solution to the sodium hydroxide). A light blue precipitate will first be formed. Continue adding the pellets until the precipitate clears to a dark blue solution.

Time out - more to follow.



[file]26956[/file] [file]26958[/file]

jdowning - 6-9-2013 at 02:21 PM

.... to continue.

My knowledge of pre-university chemistry is now a dim and distant memory but the above procedure (but I am not sure and so am open to correction) should first result in a precipitate of copper hydroxide and sodium sulphate and then - with the addition of more sodium hydroxide - to an alkaline rich solution of copper hydroxide and sodium sulphate.

It should be mentioned here that sodium hydroxide even at room temperature is a serious corrosive hazard, permanently destructive to the skin and eyes - so use plastic gloves and eye protection when handling it - and work with small quantities at a time. Nothing to be frightened of - just be aware of the dangers and act accordingly. Heating the stuff to a higher temperature increases the hazard - don't even try it!

Testing samples of my wife's silk fabric in the solution. The material did completely dissolve but not in a matter of minutes - more like about an hour or so at room temperature.
Other known silk samples of Bombyx Mori silk - dyed and sericin coated - also completely dissolved in an hour or so rather than minutes.
So, it would seem that this 'silk reagent' will completely dissolve pretty well any silk - domesticated, wild, raw or degummed and dyed - at room temperature in a relatively short period of time.
So - is my wife's silk fabric under test Bombyx Mori or some other 'wild' species of silk? It did not dissolve in a matter of 2 to 5 minutes so perhaps it is 'wild' silk rather than 'raw' (Bombyx Mori cultivated) silk? On the other hand, perhaps the fact that the material has been dyed increases the silk solubility time - the dye initially protecting the silk fibroin from attack by the reagent?

More to follow

jdowning - 6-10-2013 at 11:42 AM

The copper hydroxide reagent appears also to contain fine particles of metallic copper? (at least it cannot be gold unfortunately!) - see the previously posted image where a couple of groups of particles can be seen floating on the surface (the remainder being at the bottom of the container). So perhaps the reaction between the sodium hydroxide and copper sulphate is not quite as straightforward as first thought - and what is the purpose of the glycerin?

Checking my antiquated set of 'Thorpe's Dictionary of Applied Chemistry' Vol. 5, page 93 provided some further information.
It is stated that "an interesting property of degummed silk (Bombyx Mori) is the ease with which it can be regenerated from solution in various reagents without substantial degradation" and "Solutions of fibroin have also been recommended for the purpose of giving a silk like finish to cotton goods"
Among the list of suitable solvents given that work at room temperature is an alkaline solution of Copper Hydroxide and also a concentrated solution of Calcium Chloride (more on the latter later). The alkaline copper hydroxide solvent would appear to be rather old technology dating from the early 1930's in Japan.
As for glycerin (or glycerol) it is stated that the "addition of compounds such as glycerol or glucose results in a great increase in the rate of solution of fibroin in alkaline copper hydroxide" (but doesn't explain why this should be the case).

Nevertheless, the alkaline copper hydroxide solution (if that is what I have made) seems to work in dissolving the scrap silk that I have to hand so an attempt will next be made to produce a small quantity of reconstituted silk fibroin using this solvent - prepared as previously posted.


narciso - 6-11-2013 at 04:08 AM

Conventional wisdom floating around the web has it that silk fabrics should never be washed with biological detergents (since silk is proteinaceous, it is subject to degradation by proteases). Would that be viable as a gentler method I wonder? Although I suppose you'd be looking at a timescale of weeks/months, rather than the matter of minutes you report...
Perhaps one could even 'train up' a crack strain of proteolytically active microbes specifically for the purpose !


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