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Your background is fantastic, like the strike zone of a cultural ordnance testing range. My own background is no less complicated, but not as directly in relation to the oud.

Do tell, if you don't mind. I love hearing the perspective of fellow cultural hybrids.

You're definitely right about the uncertainty of the music market these days. I mean you have stuff on the radio that dominates but you also have the independent artists on myspace and the like, who actually have fanbases that 20 or even 10 years ago would have been unthinkable. There is evidence to say that the market is blurring but also evidence to say that it's differentiating as every person goes and does their own little thing with their own little following.
I guess reception of a given piece of music mostly comes down to finding connection with it. Whether it's the lyrics, specific instruments, or even memories it brings back you have to have some reason to listen to a song more than once. On a mass scale this means speaking to the culture of the times in your own particular way. Take for example the rock of the 1960's: it spoke to the loud, rebellious stick-it-to-the-man attitude of the masses at the time (slightly generalizing, but I still think it applies) and consequently took off.
The question then becomes how do you fit something new into that preexisting mold. Your best bet I think is to find some event that fundamentally affects the culture and harness it to make your music a cultural force.
Ultimately there will always be some baseline of dominant music which captures the culture at the moment, but at the same time there is a lot of potential for people to forge new ideas and techniques, and maybe even become the next dominant force in music.

Aymara - 12-5-2009 at 12:15 AM

The sale of singles was once the engine, then the sale of albums, CDs, now it's downloads, and nothing is for sure.

A friend of mine had an interesting theory: He said, that downloads introduce a trend back to the roots ... sounds like a antagonism, but it isn't. When we see falling sales of CDs and rising piracy levels, concerts become one of the main sources of income for music industry and artists. Many "forgotten" heroes come back on tour.

I think, this is a new trend besides Youtube and Myspace, which gives hope, that commerce will loose influence and gives new room for "real" music.

I love hearing the perspective of fellow cultural hybrids.

Though I'm just a German, I grew up and still live in the Ruhr area in West Germany, which is a cultural melting pot, because many foreign people live here. This region was a coal-mining area 'til the 70's and many Polish, Italian, Greek, Turkish and other people once came here to work in the mines. When I was a child, a good friend of mine was the son of a Spanish immigrant worker.

Though the heavy industry is gone now and the region became green again, some people like me still like the multi cultural background.

A further first influence that made me interested in world music was John Mc Laughlin & Shakti.

David.B - 12-5-2009 at 09:38 AM

I needed a long time to read all of the thread, and I haven't got everything but I see the essential...

Aymara, what you wrote was rising in my head just before I read you : Nowadays mass consumer music is killing itself, the basic consumer wants a new song quickly and doesn't care about the way he gets it. Someone who loves music needs a good support to listen to his favorite music, I use CDs (even if it's not the best...) and a good audio system, impossible to listen to a MP3, so insipid. Those who buy are the real music lovers, I hope all this "soup" we are listening to, through radio, TV, etc, is going to purge itself. And of course the best is live music, that's why I came behind my oud, it's so difficult to get time and money for a concert every night, so I do it myself, at least I try :shrug:

Also I'd like to react on something you talked about ameer. What is classical in Arab music ? To me the 24 1/4 of tone traced on the west ET is a big misunderstood and nowadays Arab music is a try from theorists to simplify old, less scientific, Arab music to an ideal which was European. The 1932 congress could give a clear border... Even texture changed at that time with the introduction of the European instruments. When I hear Oum Kalthoum, Mohamed Abdel Wahab, etc, it's already a mix of west and east !

David.B - 12-5-2009 at 09:45 AM

I correct myself ameer, you use "traditional" not "classical".

ameer - 12-5-2009 at 11:28 AM

When I say traditional I refer more to the general sound than the underlying theory. But while we're on the subject, trying to compress Arabic scales in to a 12 tone or even 24 tone system is just not going to work. When you have maqamat like rast and bayati where the second notes are both somewhere in between the tonic and tonic+0.5, then any attempt to cast down to a less precise system will cause things to sound different. You mention the 1932 congress; I'm unaware of exactly what it did to alter the landscape of Arabic music. If you could point me to a source I would appreciate it. As to stuff that came before 1932, I've never really heard any of it, though I've heard it was at least somewhat similar to the current landscape in that it involved fewer instruments.
Anyway, traditional for me is primarily Abdel Wahab etc mostly because that's what I grew up listening to as the "older" music. For me traditional music has a much more complicated sound that is more suited to longer and in some cases slower songs; I feel that Abdel Halim's faster songs for example, while they may be excelent, drag because of the complexity of the instrumentation (this is the best way I know to explain it at the moment though it's a bit unclear) and in some cases due to the complexity of the song. Where as if you take the same song and cover it in a more modern style with fewer instruments and perhaps prune some of the sections out, you have a modern pop song that I think sounds a lot more put together. They did all have western influences, but it was the west of the past; with what is happening now with instruments and synthesizers, there is at least some room for the same kind of innovation without sacrificing traditional attributes.
So in short the discussion of traditional versus modern for me is more like the classic rock versus modern rock discussion rather than the rock versus classical music discussion. You can still apply the same techniques from traditional songs to the modern songs. I hope that clarifies.

fernandraynaud - 12-5-2009 at 07:34 PM

To answer Ameer's question about my background, the problems we see in the Middle East are obviously not unique. Many parts of the world have complicated ethnic and religious divisions that can get ugly or beautiful, depending.

The small country called Lithuania was peopled by nature-loving farmers whose religion centered on the Sun and forest deities. They spoke an old language related to Sanskrit. Their most unique national characteristic was their ability to stand and sing ancient songs on the banks of rivers stone sober for hours on end in the freezing cold. They were invaded by heavily armed Christians who "urged" them to become Christians. They sort of accepted it, finally, at the end of the 14th century, when to defend themselves from further such "improvements" by the Teutonic Knights, they joined with their Polish neighbours and formed the huge Grand Duchy of Lithuania that stretched from the Baltic to the Black Sea. Its outline in 1619 (overlaid on modern countries) looked like:

[file]12685[/file]

The king was not too powerful. The democratic principles were such that discussions and voting in the senate dragged on forever, and not much got done too quickly, and it was just fine that way. The city of Vilnius was a melting pot where about 1/3 each Polish, Yiddish and Russian were spoken, with other languages thrown in. Vilnius had Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant churches, Synagogues and Mosques. The Muslims were mostly Russian-speaking descendants of Tartars who had decided to settle down, but there were also Muslims among the Jews from the 1492 dispersal of Andalusia. In the country, Lithuanian was still spoken by farmers, and Christianity had not even entirely replaced the old ways, to this day the Lithuanian cross bears a sun at the center. People managed to get along. The only problem was that the neighboring countries were far less democratic, and they got things done efficiently, like attacking the Grand Duchy and dismantling it between Russia, Austria and Prussia in the 18th century. But still life went on peacefully in the countryside. Their ability to stand and sing served them well. They could outlast the Christians during services, and outdo the Russians during toasts and speeches. My father was born there before World War I on a little country estate. Between the two world wars, a lot of small-time hostilities created bad blood between all nationalities everywhere, though in Lithuania a recognition of long-term realities favored cooperation over conflict.

Then came World War II, Russian occupation, then German occupation when Synagogues and Mosques quite disappeared from Vilnius along with their faithful, then Russian annexation. Many of the people who had (suspiciously!) survived the German purification were, after the Liberation, shot or deported to Siberia to make room for some serious collective farming. My uncle, who as a traditional Lithuanian Pole had saved Germans from Russians and Russians from Germans and Jews from everybody, managed to destroy the family file before they were rounded up by the KGB. My father managed to survive in Poland, and after a lot of adventures landed in Washington DC, where I was born, and then in France, where I went to school, then to California where I went to college.

Strangely enough, my wife of 9 years is Lithuanian, she too grew up on a little farm near Vilnius, where her neighbors on one side spoke Lithuanian, on the other side they spoke Russian, and at home they spoke Polish. Things hadn't changed all that much since my father's childhood 50 years before, as communist officials in uniform came for tea and stole eggs just as the officers of the Tsar had done before. A few old families even spoke German. Some people attended Catholic church, others Orthodox, still others a little Mosque, and a small group only attended Party meetings, instead of Synagogue, but they all got along, and no serious attempt was made to change anything essential. My wife chose to attend the Russian school, because she liked the teacher and their red scarves, though her brother attended the Polish one. When the Soviet Empire collapsed around 1990, many of the Russian officers and soldiers asked to please stay, and those who agreed to be good and learn Lithuanian were allowed to do so. It turned out that both of those requirements were not easily met, especially in light of the fact that hardly anybody spoke Lithuanian, a very difficult language that was only remembered by some stubborn old farmers. But they polished it up and wrote grammar books, and claimed it had a national literature and had not long ago been spoken by everyone, and it became the official language. Most of the young Russians found Lithuanian unlearnable, and the ones who continued to make trouble with mafia friends were told to go home, though in my wife's village the old Russian families were still accepted. In all of the invasions and misfortunes, nobody would dream of blaming one's neighbors, even if they spoke the language of the invader, and this prevented a lot of trouble.

Then, strangely the government decreed that only Lithuanian was to be spoken, and a lot of needless tension developed, like "inspection day" when local schools had to take down their Polish or Russian signs, hide the books, and for one day pretend they taught everything in Lithuanian. The students' names were spelled the Lithuanian way until the inspectors left. Though everybody understood all three languages, in the city all questions you might ask in anything but Lithuanian, as I found out, were met with blank stares. The older people were having a hard time even buying groceries. Everybody developed a gripe about being mistreated by this or that group. The young people all learned only Lithuanian.

But then all of a sudden it turned out that in order to get anything done with the neighboring countries you had to know Russian, and German, and Polish. So reason returned. The young people are now taking classes in Russian, and Polish and German and English. And there's a synagogue and a mosque in Vilnius again, things are getting back to normal. The old timers just laugh. My wife still gets along with everybody, even me.

fernandraynaud - 12-5-2009 at 08:08 PM

David,

But all the "organic" musicians who find live music the only way, and dislike MP3s and synthesizers overlook the fact that practically speaking it is only with electronics that we can explore alternate sounds and tunings, and that it's the download revolution that is making traditional music available to millions.

I think that it's more important to explore alternatives to the mass market than it is to cling to acoustic instruments and live recordings.

Aymara - 12-6-2009 at 01:00 AM

Hi Tony!

... and Prussia in the 18th century.

The world is a village

My mother's ancestors were farmers in the region of Koenigsberg (Kaliningrad). My grandfather came to the town I still live in to become a coal miner between the World Wars. My other grandfather was a tram driver in the neighbour city, but his ancestors were also farmers.

... it's more important to explore alternatives to the mass market ...

Nowadays two worlds of music exist: the mass market, where music and "artist" are nothing more than a product with a very short life circle and on the other hand "fair-minded" music, be it traditional or modern.

David.B - 12-6-2009 at 01:04 AM

ameer,

You can find an interesting article about the 1932 congress here :

http://thornpricks.blogspot.com/2006/11/conflating-instruments-and-...

It's interesting because it focuses on the piano. If you want more theoretic infos you can read “Arab Music Theory in the Modern Period” by Marcus Scott Lloyd, page 820, and some other books presented here :

http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=23860781115&topic=8876

Finally, you can hear Pre-1932 Cairo conference music here :

http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=7795#pid491...

I reacted on what you wrote because I've been confronted to the same problem of vocabulary about 2006 when I gave lessons at the "conservatoire de musique orientale" (Paris). Our repertoire, the classical one, was Oum Kaltoum, Farid el Atrach, Abdel Wahab (Abdel Halim in a certain way)... In this school there were 2 kind of people : The occidentals here because of the takasim and the orientals because of the "classicals". I didn't grow up with the "classicals" and to me it sounds, in a certain way, like symphonic orchestras. So I don't recognize pure Arab music in "classicals". But it's just a problem of words, not so important, what is important is the History and what happened between Napoleon's period and 1932 Cairo congress. I'm certainly saying stupid things, but I would compare this period to Baroque period and post 1932 like Symphonic one. Then like pop/rock.

Tony, tu as écrit une tartine ! I hope I read it as soon as possible

To react on your last post :

I totally agree, I admit that I'm a conservator and my purpose is to play alone somewhere in the middle of the desert... I stopped to travel physically for an inside trip through maqamat. What you do is the future and I admire your work especially as a composer. To me technology is "just" a great tool and you handle it better than I do with an artistic point of view.

PS
I'd like to mention "Al Kindi" as a purist ensemble which try to bring back the traditional repertoire with traditional instruments. Give it a try on the Bashraf :

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=photos&ref=ts&gid=91588...

David.B - 12-6-2009 at 10:24 PM

You're background is really interesting Tony, I understand it deserves such a prose... Mine is more classical in spite I share a little tiny thing with your past : the "Lycée de Montgeron"

jenni - 10-19-2010 at 05:46 PM

Very interesting discussion!

There is something theoretically beautiful about the mixing of cultures, but, at least nowadays, i find this mixing to be aesthetically disastrous. As someone already mentioned in this thread, abdel halim and oum kalthoum and the like- that was already a mix of western and arab music... it was beautifully done, but a line was crossed, and what has basically stemmed from that, i don't have much of a taste for. i feel that nowadays, people think mashing stuff together is creating something new, when in fact it is just.... mashing stuff together. then people think THAT's a new genre, so they mash it up even more. until it becomes so mashed up that it's ironically the most simple, dumb music in the world.
For this i actually feel it is EXTREMELY important to bring traditions back into the light. so, ameer, i am not a " traditionalist who want to hide away in a commune somewhere"... i am a traditionalist who wants to to bring back the old music and the music which was once made because it sounded beautiful, before it is ultimately lost in the pot of mingling cultures.

just my thoughts....

David.B - 10-20-2010 at 02:35 AM

before it is ultimately lost in the pot of mingling cultures.

Hum... I would temperate this point of view, especially with Arab music! The first school we know about Arab music is the school of Qaïna-s, the pre-Islamic period up to 632. This could be called the pure Arab music. But we have nothing back from this period to know what it sounded like. After we have a mix between Indian, Persian, and especially Greek music, mostly during the Abbasids (750–1258). The modern period starts with the introduction of western culture (about 1750, 1800). Our period is a complete mix of cultures. This is with the impulsion of the western culture that Arab music grew and stand up! I would point out the commercial stuffs not the cultural mix. The cultural mix is really healthy for music, without Joseph Tawadros, Anouar Brahem, Dhafer Youssef, Avishaï Cohen... Who would care about the roots of Arab music? More we have precursors, more we have artists like Muhammad Qadri Dalal, Mustafa Saïd and a revival of the early modern period through the Université Antonine (Lebanon) for example.

jenni - 10-20-2010 at 04:27 AM

Yes, i understand that pretty much everything came from somewhere, "arab music", even what sounds extremely traditional, is a mix of cultures, and a beautiful one.
"the cultural mix is really healthy for music....the commercial stuffs not the cultural mix"
but doesn't the commercial stuff sort of stem from the "good" stuff? was there "commercial stuff" invading the masses during the Abbasids? before, the popular stuff and the classical stuff was the same thing... the fact that this has changed is big problem for the evolution of music/art in general. i guess i haven't heard enough noncommercial modern mixing of arab and western culture - music to have an eloquent discussion on this topic. even with oum kalthoum, (esp) abdel halim, abdel wahab there's some stuff i reeally don't think is beautiful because of certain western influences i hear in the music. i just saw trio joubran play recently , i was highly impressed and inspired even, but i didn't go straight home and listen to them - it was for their skills and the interesting display. fairuz, although she has a beautiful voice - some songs are just aweful, to the point i can't even stand it, because of the westernization in it. - is that stuff all "commercial" ?

i know this is just one beginner's opinion, but i think new music is going absolutely nowhere, in all genres. with the exception of very few artists i've heard.

David.B - 10-20-2010 at 07:25 AM

was there "commercial stuff" invading the masses during the Abbasids?

I think this period was the golden age of music and so much things. A unique moment in history! At this time music was a science... So it's difficult to think about the Abbasids with our modern conception of society where the capital rules the world, during the Abbasids the richness allowed the caliphs to protect the intellectuals and develop abstract theories. As I can see you're from Montréal, do you speak French? L'AGE D'OR DE L'ISLAM ( http://www.cinemapassion.com/covers_temp/covers3/L_age_d_or_de_l_Is... )

i reeally don't think is beautiful because of certain western influences i hear in the music.

Yes this is a point of view (and this is mine), but since the middle of the 19th century western music was considered as a more evolute music and integrate the western system was considerate as a great evolution for many Arabs.

is that stuff all "commercial" ?

The point is: "What is commercial for you?"
To me the time is the judge. And History will say what is not only fashion but a constructive part of it.

with the exception of very few artists i've heard.

I hope you'll be a part of them in order to keep the old school alive

Here I'd like to rebound: "What is the way to learn Arab music without western influences?"

ameer - 10-20-2010 at 07:51 AM

Wow. Almost a year later and this thread pops up again. I'm again sttruck by the impressive amount of reason and civility shown by the participants. Thank you for a so far wonderful discussion of a topic filled with complex and sometimes touchy subjects. Now to address some of the points made thus far:
@jenni: I commend your initiative to try and expose others to the flavor of music that you like. Only by spreading the word- or in this case the music- can we hope to have a chance of finding people who agree with us.
@David.B Can you elaborate on what exactly you mean by "What is the way to learn Arab music without western influences?" I mean, post-1932 there will likely be some kind of western influence in whatever it is you study; I suppose you could study pre-1932 material exclusively, but again it depends on exactly what you're trying to achieve.

David.B - 10-20-2010 at 08:20 AM

I suppose you could study pre-1932 material exclusively, but again it depends on exactly what you're trying to achieve.

Hi ameer,

Yes to me this is the biggest point! The way we learn Arab music is completely intricate with western staff notation, theory and instruments. My teacher, a Lebanese, commended me to play on tempered scale with staff notation. It became completely absurd when I tried to understand the empiric Arab system with the scientific western theory (cycle of fifths and fourths, tonalities, chords...). Now I use only my ears and my memory with the help of books. So this is where I can't go further. I need books, websites, forums... and off course records to understand what I cover. And there are not so much references about the early period. Without teachers (and big structures) it seems impossible... So I try to play Arab music with the tools around, maybe this why I'm open to everything which helps, whatever it is, west or east. Here comes the compromise. I don't know about you, but I think what we can do and learn nowadays is huge, and I won't complain!

ameer - 10-20-2010 at 08:44 AM

I agree. What tends to help is that the maqam tradition is very much an oral tradition so that you have a different- and I would even go so far as to say better- road when it comes to learning. I would love to hear first-hand perspectives: is maqam any easier or harder than western theory in terms of learning with minimal support?

David.B - 10-20-2010 at 09:16 AM

is maqam any easier or harder than western theory in terms of learning with minimal support?

Definitely harder if we talk about the early period, this is why ancients wanted to bring the western theory to help students. Arab music had to evolute in order to keep going.

The masterpiece of this period could give to you an idea of the complexity I'm talking about :

http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=10782

First of the all the name of the notes: 48 different names to learn in order to not mix up Nim zergelâh and Nim shahnâz for example, oral tradition needs it. Easier to read C=/= and c=/=. This is a reason why the one octave maqam became the norm (and temperate scale)...

jenni - 10-20-2010 at 09:28 AM

" maybe this why I'm open to everything which helps, whatever it is, west or east. Here comes the compromise."

Yes, i agree with this. but now you are talking about methods of learning music, not making new music....
forgive me, but i don't think i'm understanding the argument anymore.

jenni - 10-20-2010 at 09:40 AM

is maqam any easier or harder than western theory in terms of learning with minimal support?

This is tricky... i personally have been studying classical western music for years. i study it in uni right now, and we take plenty of theory classes and musicianship classes, etc. etc., (which to me feels useless most of the time in terms of my musical and artistic development.)
BUT if i were to take these same classes for arabic music, it would act almost as a short cut for me, only since i haven't fully absorbed the music yet. however, i've familiarized myself the most and learned the most simply by using my ears. this feels like the best and most natural way for me to learn. i want to learn all about the theory only because i want to accelerate my learning process (and maybe to sound impressive

)

i'm not sure if one is harder than the other, though. the only way to tell would be to go back in time and learn both at the same time and see which came easier. the problem is, they are SOOOOOO different... it's comparing apples and oranges. so i'm not sure this question can ever really be answered.
and the fact that they are so different, so distant, theoretically and musically and emotionally, leads back to my original opinion that the two genres have little to no business mixing.

David.B - 10-20-2010 at 10:27 AM

Yes, i agree with this. but now you are talking about methods of learning music, not making new music....
forgive me, but i don't think i'm understanding the argument anymore.

I think this is really intricate and without new methods no new music. But OK, this is really specific to Arab music. The Arab world had to settle down and think about a new theory to keep its music, but as it is a compromise with western (scientific) methods, new Arab methods began to flourish without one leader. You can see the same for the oud, what is the standard overall sizes? No norm like the violin for example. This is the strong point of Arab music and its weak point (as we said about "the pot of mingling cultures"), the method you learn Arab music could give to you a definitely different point of view in your artistic way! This is so so real for Arab music, not for western one which is standardized.

leads back to my original opinion that the two genres have little to no business mixing.

I think you should read "ARAB MUSIC THEORY IN THE MODERN PERIOD" by Marcus Scott Lloyd. You would see how mixed up are west and east in Arab music, what we labeled "Arab music" would not exist without the impulsion of the west and the structure of its music. This mix is already its identity!

mrkmni - 10-20-2010 at 01:01 PM

Nice discussion guys;

I herad from a great knowlegable arab musician that oriental music is richer than western one, because of the various "naghamat" in it; rast is a "naghama" for example. whereas western has major ang minor scales, which exists in arab music....

Of course, musics took from each other; if you look at the samaii composition you find similar principles ( repetitions, acceleration, ...) in symphonies or even in Jazz music.

I also, personally believe that music is very related to language: when we speak, we apply maquamat without sensing them....

The last point entails that western people can not understand or apply oreiental music as its original people...

Brian Prunka - 10-20-2010 at 08:24 PM

I herad from a great knowlegable arab musician that oriental music is richer than western one, because of the various "naghamat" in it; rast is a "naghama" for example. whereas western has major ang minor scales, which exists in arab music....

I heard from a great knowledgeable European musician that all Arab music is out-of-tune. Do you see how appeals to authority lead to ridiculous statements?
Major and minor scales are defined by the use of tonal harmony. They do not exist in Arabic music, since Arabic music does not have tonal harmony. This is not that different than saying that a maqam is not just a scale, running up and down the notes in Rast does not produce the maqam Rast.
To say that oriental music is richer is preposterous. It is richer in some ways and poorer in others.
I do not understand this need to consider one kind of music superior to another. Musical value is not a finite resource. The respect we accord a great composer like Qassabji or Abdel Wahab does not need to be subtracted from the greatness of Chopin or Wayne Shorter.

Quote:

Of course, musics took from each other; if you look at the samaii composition you find similar principles ( repetitions, acceleration, ...) in symphonies or even in Jazz music.

We all have human brains, and composers the world over have discovered a common affinity for certain musical traits. It is leaping to conclusions to conclude that these characteristics were "taken" from one music to another. Many similar principles were developed independently with little contact.
That said, people have also often and easily transmitted musical ideas, and very little music developed entirely in isolation.
Samai form is is actually more similar to ritornello form, and quite unlike symphonic forms, with are preoccupied with thematic development, a technique almost entirely absent from any Ottoman form.

Quote:

The last point entails that western people can not understand or apply oreiental music as its original people...

This may be true. I ask you to consider: do you also think that Arabs are not equipped to understand or play western music properly?

Quote:

Nice discussion guys;

It has been nice so far.

David.B - 10-21-2010 at 01:18 AM

The last point entails that western people can not understand or apply oreiental music as its original people...

You're right, Titi Robin should not play flamenco anymore (he's not a gitano) -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfnGdErECuc, Coba should not be inspired by French music (He's Japanese) -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMr5M3d7SUQ, Magic Malik must stick on music from Ivory Coast (why an occidental instrument?) -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_Dv8-iw4vA, Sheikh Habboush, Sabah Fakhri, Sheikh Hamza Shakkûr and Mounir Bachir has been mystified, Julien JalAl Eddine WEISS is white! -> http://www.webislam.com/?idv=1912, etc.

Khalid_Salé - 10-21-2010 at 11:43 AM

Quote:

We all have human brains, and composers the world over have discovered a common affinity for certain musical traits.

Indeed, even humpback whales have phrases and choruses. (Khanas and taslims?)

mrkmni - 10-21-2010 at 01:01 PM

Guys,
I think I am misunderstood here; there was certainly frictions between oriental and western music...For example, the Valse 3 /3 that we find in last khanas in a samaii and in classic oriental music. Can we find Valse in Indian or Korean Music? I would be surprised...Ottoman empire was at the edge of Vienna, so of course there should be exchanges. The same thing between Andalusia and Europe: Flamenco ....It is not a bad thing....and it is not by serependity...as you said...

Brian: we Arabs we like our "out of tune "music. You will find many conservative arab people who will refuse to listen to Mozart or Bethoven, it is their choice...they see it strange to their ears.

The other point, David, I did not say that western players can not play arab musci, but I said they can not reach the level of aboriginal players...no matter what and for the same reasons. Otherwise, a computer can play.
Give me American player who plays Iraqi music better than Iraqis them selves...or French player better than Egyptians or Turkish... It is just unconceivable... the same thing with singers, and it is more clear with singers because it is a matter of tongue this time... Can you speak like chineese even if you learn chinees?...So, Music is a cultural thing. Again, I did not say that they can not play but they will never reach the level.
Le Baron d’Erlanger and other Orientalists ( Mustachrikins) were interested in oriental cultures only because they tried to understand these cultures in order to colonize them.

jenni - 10-21-2010 at 02:11 PM

mrkmni, my goal is to do what you say is inconcievable.

yes, it will take a lifetime because i don't have the memories, the associations... it's not instinctive in me, it's not automatic... it will be a while before i will have dreams in arabic. i have thousands of hours of music-listening to do before improvising comes naturally and effortlessly, and before quarter-tones don't stand out as something abnormal. not to mention re-learning what "proper singing" is, defying so much of what i've learned in my classical studies.
and of course i must live in a region whose music i want to pursue before i understand how it reflects the culture.

so, perhaps these are just a few things which make you think it's impossible... you clearly have the right to this opinion. but i believe, and hope, that one day i will prove you wrong.

all the same, i am not saying this for the sake of proving anyone wrong nor for the sake of accomplishing the impossible. i am saying this because i have a deep love for this music and a passion which i've never felt for anything else before. i have to do it, and i have to do it well. or at least i will die trying, because i have no choice.

wow sorry for my slightly off-topic philosophical rant...
i feel the need to post it nonetheless

mrkmni - 10-21-2010 at 04:43 PM

jenny
I really salute your commitment, and I wish you realize your goals.
However, I dont die trying to learn other cultures others than mine. You should have very strong reason for this.
Probably, I am a conservative guy since even if I am not living in my real country, I am still attached to my culture.

Brian Prunka - 10-21-2010 at 05:01 PM

Brian: we Arabs we like our "out of tune "music. You will find many conservative arab people who will refuse to listen to Mozart or Bethoven, it is their choice...they see it strange to their ears.

I never claimed that Arab music is out of tune.
I think you misunderstood me, perhaps irony is difficult to recognize.
I was merely pointing out, by example, how ridiculous your assertion that "a great knowlegable arab musician [said] that oriental music is richer than western one, because of the various "naghamat" in it; rast is a "naghama" for example."

Nobody has to listen to anything.
The assertion that oriental music contains the major and minor modes is incorrect.

Quote:

The other point, David, I did not say that western players can not play arab musci, but I said they can not reach the level of aboriginal players...no matter what and for the same reasons.

It is probably true that a Western musician will never achieve the highest levels of the best Arab musicians in playing Arab music.

However, an excellent Western musician may in fact surpass an average Arab musician.
It is of course a matter of interpretation, but there are many excellent Arab musicians who disagree with you (and prove it in their hiring practices).

mrkmni - 10-21-2010 at 05:22 PM

Brian:
By richer I did not mean better, may be indian music is even richer; it has more possibilities; in composing, that is what the composer ( who composed dozen of songs to Oum Kalthoom) meant...

I think for you the center of oriental music is NY; I have never seen a CLASSICAL music band hiring a western musucian spacialist.
I will not believe you untill you show me a native-born american who plays oud better than Simon Shahin, who is Palestinian living in America, as you know

Brian Prunka - 10-21-2010 at 06:06 PM

Whatever makes you happy. I've just run out of troll food, so I have to stop here.

David.B - 10-22-2010 at 12:01 AM

The other point, David, I did not say that western players can not play arab musci, but I said they can not reach the level of aboriginal players...no matter what and for the same reasons. Otherwise, a computer can play.
Give me American player who plays Iraqi music better than Iraqis them selves...or French player better than Egyptians or Turkish... It is just unconceivable... the same thing with singers, and it is more clear with singers because it is a matter of tongue this time... Can you speak like chineese even if you learn chinees?...So, Music is a cultural thing. Again, I did not say that they can not play but they will never reach the level.
Le Baron d’Erlanger and other Orientalists ( Mustachrikins) were interested in oriental cultures only because they tried to understand these cultures in order to colonize them.

Quote: Originally posted by David.B

Sheikh Habboush, Sabah Fakhri, Sheikh Hamza Shakkûr and Mounir Bachir has been mystified, Julien JalAl Eddine WEISS is white! -> http://www.webislam.com/?idv=1912, etc.

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka

Whatever makes you happy. I've just run out of troll food, so I have to stop here.

David.B - 10-22-2010 at 12:16 AM

Brian:
By richer I did not mean better, may be indian music is even richer; it has more possibilities; in composing, that is what the composer ( who composed dozen of songs to Oum Kalthoom) meant...

I think for you the center of oriental music is NY; I have never seen a CLASSICAL music band hiring a western musucian spacialist.
I will not believe you untill you show me a native-born american who plays oud better than Simon Shahin, who is Palestinian living in America, as you know

Good, we're back on the subject with a concrete example: The golden age of Islam through Abbasids, I talked about, has definitely ended!

ameer - 10-22-2010 at 06:01 AM

What I don't understand is why some people here feel the need to bring up this subject every five minuts as if they somehow need to assert their superiority for being natives. I guess it's a trait of the internet that you find all kinds. All I can say is this: last summer I had the privilage of working with a percussionist by the name of Nate Stottlemyer. As you can probably guess this guy was not an Arab or anything resembling an Arab. At the same time the guy could play better than any Arab I had known up to that point, though I have to confess that the pool of professionals I have had contact with is pitifully small. My point is that as an Arab I would have absolutely no qualms about involving him in any of my work or being involved in any of his work. On that note I propose we end this rather ridiculous chapter of the discussion.

Jimwilson - 2-15-2011 at 07:11 PM