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The Term "Oud Master" whats it mean?

JamesOud - 4-12-2010 at 08:05 PM

This has confused me for a while, what makes an oud master?

In a recent mikeouds post, it advertises Yair Dalal as an Oud Master.
For me Yair Dalal's oud playing has not been special, his intonation is not very good nor its content not masterful by any oud standards...
Now he has a masterclass...I dont get this...
Is it just me Or is master just a term thrown away by the west at anyone who plays oud?

Rabih abou khalil is another player who shares the same title Master and Virtuoso and is actually a poor oud player, but is a good composer I guess.

Who are your oud masters?

Im just confused...

Thoughts?

Confused James

jazzchiss - 4-13-2010 at 12:17 AM

I think you're hypercritical. Everything is relative, and everyone can be a master for someone.
I enjoy much more the violin of Yair Dalal than his oud .
About Abou-Khalil, I do think he is a virtuoso, but his compositions bore me.
Master is only a word.

fernandraynaud - 4-13-2010 at 01:05 AM

Maybe Jazzchiss hit it on the head: everyone can be a master for someone.

If someone says you're a master, you're a master. All it takes is one satellite to make a sun. If YOU say you're a master, you're a dork. If you bribe someone to say you're a master, you're probably a dork in advertising. If many people say you're a master, you're in politics. If you bribe many people to say you're a master, you're a dork in politics. If everybody says you're a master, they are afraid.

zou - 4-13-2010 at 02:11 AM

this question is important thanks to jamesoud:
For me it's directly related to our sens of glorification of persons, a master is someone who has a true musical vision (real prospective) for this instrument, he has also his own style, i know it's a subjective definition but (like a guru) the master must have the vison, the unique style, virtuosity is not suffiscant, hamza din for exemple (allah yerhamou) had somthing bayond the virtuosity, he was a master... riadh al sumbaty also, one phrase from riadh alsumbati could be a lesson of mastery...
ziad

fernandraynaud - 4-13-2010 at 03:59 AM

Zou, when you say glorification of persons, do you mean it's positive or negative?

It IS an important question. But for Westerners there's a tie-in to the concept of "artist", which is, when you think about it, a fiction of the Romantic era, leading to the "artiste revolté" of the early 20th century. This is opposite to the concept of "craftsman" or "artisan", and also tied to a sort of pseudo-spiritual concept, that the artist is exploring a deeper reality with his discipline, his suffering and his liberty, all too often interpreted as decadence and rebellion. If Jean Genet played the oud, he would be a Master.

Khalil Gibran comes to mind, in connection with the Oud, as he captured the Western concept for his own, and his nations's, use very effectively, endowing himself with a cloak of mystery. He was in time treated as a "master" in emigre and artist circles of his adopted Boston, and later in Arabic, though in actuality he was neither a student aof a serious spiritual practice, nor an initiate of a religious tradition, a prophet, nor of anything.

I stand to be corrected, but as far as i know, and this is strange, Gibran, though he later came to be accepted as an English-language and ultimately an Arabic writer, was barely literate in his native languages until mid-life. He was as little of a traditional "master" as the other clever "masters" of the early 20th century, from Mme Blavatsky, Rasputin and Gurdjieff to Jonathan Livingston Seagull and Mme Landowska. Where the "master" actually has a specific skill, like Landowska and the notable Oud players, it's refreshing. Where mystique for its own sake dominates, it's less so.

I hope that our Middle Eastern brothers here have a different and less neurotic view of musical talent. What do you understand by the term "oud master"?

JamesOud - 4-13-2010 at 05:30 AM

Hey guys,

Jazzchiss, Rabih Abou khalil is not an oud virtuoso, he actually plays very poorly. He cant execute anything on his instrument properly, lets say compared to shaheen, he is worlds away, and he plays awfully out of tune. Thats why he plays with brass and the oud level is low. His compositions are his saving grace. I wouldnt consider him a master, only a "Master of advertising". Heres his virtuosity here at 5:40 where its the most awful solo with his oud out of tune for an "in the studio" session.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EK_ca0T5vw&feature=related

Oud standard in the West is just easily acceptable and any oud player can be a master these days. Why is it only this music where we can have poor oud playing glorified due to lack of knowledge. Hamza al Din is a master, because he can play in tune for one, not a technical master but a master of nubian folk which doesnt require more than what he does and he grows on it.
RIyad al sunbati has melodic phrasing and soul and plays in tune again, and proved himself as a master through compositions for people etc.

Im just saying, these days, anyone can put a band together, have a basic playing of oud with no extended knowledge or respect for the instrument and call themselves a master.

We have no quality control! and thats the issue, people that are basic out of tune players can be paraded as virtuoses when theyre not and masters when theyre not. Thats my opinion, all Im asking is are we ever gonna have quality control or a free for all?

Thanks,

Still confused James

fernandraynaud - 4-13-2010 at 05:37 AM

Free for all

JamesOud - 4-13-2010 at 05:40 AM

Perfect...

bibo10 - 4-13-2010 at 06:20 AM

quality control lol
I totally agree with James

dubai244 - 4-13-2010 at 08:44 AM

Hi guys,

first, I totally agree that there is no quality control at all.

Second, I would like to subtitute the word "master" with word " Professional". They are professional oud players that inflowance so many people with there music such as: Jameel Bashir, Munir Bashir, Naseer shamma, Yurdal Tokcan. There "Professional" presented there as music as part of there culture and tradition music. Munir for example presented the iraqi style and his pieces still very affective and still played by so many oud admirers. Yurdal presented the turkish oud to world and setup a very good example of turkish music player.

Third, for commercial reason, they add "Master" to be accepted by the people as "Master" oud player. Which very cheap way of confince people that they are "master" oud player.

Thanks

ALAMI - 4-13-2010 at 09:55 AM

The word "Master" in the oriental tradition has more the meaning suggested by Zou. In fact, and up to early 20th century, "quality control" existed, no one could call himself a master, the title "Sheikh Tarab" or "Mouallem" needed to be earned. In Cairo and in Aleppo and probably in other big cities a musician needed to be the disciple of a known master, this the first step. The second step was when the master decided that his disciple has become good enough to be called master, at this point the master called for an assembly of all the master musicians, including the Big Chief master, and the aspiring master had to play in their presence without any audience, if the assembly agrees, a new master was accepted.
The last Big Chief in Cairo was Sheikh Abdel Rahim Al Masloub (the composer of Ah Ya Helou), he also ruled the copyright issues between composers.(there is a famous story between Mohammad Osman and Abdo Al Hamouly)

The Master has not to be a virtuoso, it is about having a deep knowledge of the maqams and the tradition and having also the duty to transmit his knowledge.

The totality of Mouwashahat known in 1932 where recorded by Sheikh ??? (I can't remember his name right now), he was considered as a great master even though his voice was far from being nice to hear, he sings right in tune and he has memorized all the original tunes, his knowledge was a reference even though he is not a singer.

It is also known that even the king Mohamed Ali Al Kabir was unable to force the guild to recognize a master.

So quality control existed, but like many good things it has been forgotten.

JamesOud - 4-13-2010 at 10:30 AM

Guys,

I agree with the above Dubai...but the examples Im giving of Yair and Rabih dont have a basic knowledge or application of oud technique.
Look at the clip I posted above, Rabih doesnt even have his oud strings tuned (in a closed session recording) and its such an awful improvisation any way you look at it, yet he sells it with his deep facial expressions and as genuine. This is not masterful, its rubbish, yet they even give him the title of Virtuoso. Look at Yair also, very rarely does he have any piece intune, yet he's giving a masterclass. He's learnt a few scales and now he's virtuoso...

As we said, its a free for all. This is an example of where lack of practice is rewarded, what message is this giving young oud players? dont practice, just be convincing and good marketers? We need consitent quality, theres too much garbage out there and that stuff is shaping what the West think about oud and thats my issue. Quarter tones are bad enough for the West let alone playing them out of tune, now we can both alienate the west and east with poor technique. Maybe the eskimos will applaude it...

Thanks,

Stil very confused James

zou - 4-13-2010 at 10:45 AM

jamesoud : it's a chanse for our conception of music and art in general for not having a "quality control" it will be a desaster i think, it's a question of subjective or objective way of thinking, as for "mastery" i think that there is a relationship first with the instrument (knowledge, style...) and anoyher relationship with public, rabih abou khalil is one of the first oudplayers to compose with jazz éléments and in a way he was "futurist" and we have to recognize this to him, the mastery is not only playing in tune (mathematical conception).it's a matter of impact ; "rayonnement" in french.
i mean by glorification of person : the way we mistify the persons (we keep them out of constructive criticism) and it is not négative but it could be.

Cocomaan - 4-13-2010 at 11:16 AM

Anyone ever read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintinence? Great book - the main philosophical dilemma in that book is the question: what is quality?

So, what distinguishes good writing playing from mediocre playing? Mastery from mere professionalism?

Luttgutt - 4-13-2010 at 12:55 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Cocomaan

Anyone ever read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintinence? Great book - the main philosophical dilemma in that book is the question: what is quality?

So, what distinguishes good writing playing from mediocre playing? Mastery from mere professionalism?

I read it

Excellent book!

I neither believe in nor do I wish "dictatorshiplike" (disgised in "control") over who is "master" or who is "good"...

We all can, and should listen to the players we like!

If you thinks Rabia (for example) is bad, just don't listen to him. Why should you care what others think??!
No one can DECIDE for you who to like or dislike!!

I am skeptic to this thema! It sounds to me like pepeole are trying to IMPOSE there opinion about who IS a master and who is NOT! There are NO absolute TRUTH in here that anyone can claim they KNOW.

Hamze al din, for example, is being used her some example på en ABSOLUT truth (that he IS a master).

Well I used to say that Hamze (god bless his soul), plays the oud like my brother: Bad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We can have any meaning we want to have.
But why should we impose our meaning on others???????

NO TO CONTROL

bibo10 - 4-13-2010 at 01:14 PM

I don't think the word "control" is meant in that way, i think u mean "dictatorship" or "enforcing", the control we talking about here is "quality control" big difference!
No one wants to see someone that is not good, go on TV or anywhere and be recognized as a master or a virtuoso or whatever. Even worse, we all hate to see someone not qualified represent a school of playing or specific style or a country!
We have all been exposed to "MASTERS," true masters from different schools i.e Riyad el Sunbati, El Qasabji, Farid, Munir Bashir, and i honestly hate to see anyone represent these schools. It is a shame. Now that the oud is growing more than ever, i think they are many out there who don't deserve the reputations they earned! This is a critical time to apply quality control or otherwise we ll get lost in the middle of the mess and the oud could possibly lose it's flavor
So I think that is what is meant by quality control

Luttgutt - 4-13-2010 at 01:29 PM

I kind of see your point Bibo.

But I don't think I misunderstand the words "control" vs. "dictatorship".

You mean that Monir Bashir IS a master, and you (and many many) others makes sound like it is an absolut truth!

Well, that to me is as much "dictatorship" as it is "control"!

I don't think Monir HAD a school. I don't think he was a master (he has good technique, yes. But as Alami puts it: that is not what a master is about!). And no matter what people say, I will never change my mind about that.

But it seems to me that you want to IMPOSE this/your "control" on me, when you (and others) take it for an absolut truth that he was a master (God rest his soul too).
And some (maybe you too) tend to think that I (luttgutt) is simply an IDIOT because I can't SEE that he WAS a master.

See? that is why I am thinking that this control goes over to becoming dectatorship.

I hope I formulate myself clearly (though I have the feeling that i did not

ameer - 4-13-2010 at 02:59 PM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

Maybe Jazzchiss hit it on the head: everyone can be a master for someone.

If someone says you're a master, you're a master. All it takes is one satellite to make a sun. If YOU say you're a master, you're a dork. If you bribe someone to say you're a master, you're probably a dork in advertising. If many people say you're a master, you're in politics. If you bribe many people to say you're a master, you're a dork in politics. If everybody says you're a master, they are afraid.

Very well put. I think that's about as good an objective definition as we're ever going to get. Permit me to approach the issue from another angle:
in the US, many musicians would judge the current "popular" music as severely lacking in musicianship etc while the masses revere it as the greatest thing since sliced bread. At the same time even the most pretentious musician can't help but be pulled in by the catchyness of certain highly simple tunes. Putting aside the "stupid masses question," I have often wondered if it is possible for someone to be "great" in as close to an objective musical sense as we can have while being popular at the same time? We have the masters of the heart and the masters of the brain if you will: the masters of the heart speak completely to your emotions and the masters of the brain speak to your cerebral understanding of music through technique, composition, etc. In my mind a true musical master can speak to both in some capacity, though let's face it: for most people, the heart is it. Seeing as people's hearts lean towards different things in music you're almost guaranteed that the definition of master is subjective.

JamesOud - 4-13-2010 at 03:27 PM

Oud is doomed...
I dont think that because some body is a first in doing something gives them the right to parade themselves like a pro. Rabih was one of the first with this jazz stuff, but the plain fact is, he is a very poor oud player. His improvisations lack all elements of musicianship. He is quite frankly not an oud player. So you have that as an oud ambassador to the West then the perception to any Westerner who has ears or a basic understanding would think that all oud players cant tune their ouds and essentially the music is out of tune.
Munir Bashir is a master of space, I think he has a wonderful technique with beautiful phrasing, so you should listen closer Lutt

I dont like every oud player, but I can appreciate whos put in the hard yards and earned the title. FOr instance Im not a big fan of turkish oud, but when you hear Yurdal Tockan, you can appreciate that he has a mastery, same with alot of players. In the Turkish oud style, there is a quality control and thats why you dont get example of such players like Rabih appearing in Turkey, they just wouldnt have it. Even if you dont like Munir Bashir, you being a musician I hope you would be able to identify and feel his "proper" musiciansship, and appreciate his mastery

Rabih is very smart, he plays a nahat and uses a feather beause he is so genuine, yet cant play oud like most amateur oud players still learning. I think you have to earn your stripes. Learning three scales and then representing oud on wider scale is an insult to the music and in Rabihs case, he should practice more or at least learn how to tune the instrument first before taking the stage...

Nice discussing James...

fernandraynaud - 4-13-2010 at 03:50 PM

Wow, what a good topic. I am happy to see the traditionalists hang on to something close to my view, that real art is a craft and reflects knowledgde and skill, not a "deep life" with deep facial expressions. I think the oud is in a transition/entry stage and in a couple of decades it will all sort itself out. One of two ways.

One way is like the sitar where an instrument goes back into it's ethnicity of origin and sinks (to the rest of the planet) into relative obscurity. Another is like the tabla or duduk where it's continuing to be more widely used, no longer in just the traditional ways, and whoever can make it sound good is recognizable, no need for committees of sheiks, because it's no longer JUST one peoples' instrument. That has benefits, and it has down-sides.

We don't want to lose the Maqam theory that goes with the oud, not because it's the only right way, but because it can ADD to the world's music.

Let's not worry too much. Take advantage for now of being able to impress naive and well-meaning (let's never forget that!) Western audiences (and maybe Sharkki audiences that aren't as expert as they like to think) with only a little skill, and be as good as you can and be respectful, and practice a lot, and let us make more friends for the oud and broaden all music to bridge the world.

If more people in the West get exposed to MidEastern music and the MidEast is exposed to higher quality Western music than just rock and trance, then all is well! I wouldn't worry about so-and-so not practicing enough, it's a self-correcting issue I think, and no quality control board could add anything positive.

It's also a little like the poorly finished ouds that are so common; in a while nobody will want them. I hope it doesn't take a Chinese wipeout of native luthiers to bring quality to the oud. Yet ironically that may be the signal we are waiting for, that the oud has arrived.

fernandraynaud - 4-13-2010 at 05:53 PM

We are at a time when nobody is sure what art is, what is innovative and hence unexpected and what is pretentious noise masquerading as creative genius.

A harpischordist who played in Berkeley last month, and is a prof of music in London, receives mild ovations for scratching and yanking the parts of her harpsichord on stage. I call that BS. Absurd, if nothing else because there are SO MUCH better ways to make innovative sounds. Interestingly she can play Bach quite well.

At the same time, it's worth saying that some people who can hardly play have something to communicate. This is true in all types of music, that some people who play an instrument at a minimal level somehow master something important, and the public can respond to innovation that advances the art. Brian Eno is brilliant, a master, I think, though he is no virtuoso. Rabih at times makes good music, he doesn't have to be a consumate oud player.

In this sense I agree with LuttGutt. Young peoples' music, Blues, Jazz, Rock, while at times a cement-bed of repetition, is at other times a home for innovation. A quality control based on technical know-how can only serve to reinforce a status quo, for better or worse. What if Andres Segovia had wanted to test and (not) certify Jimi Hendrix?

An instrument in transition, like the electric guitar was for a long time, or the oud might yet be, is useful. It's an opportunity, where the unexpected is OK.

Luttgutt - 4-14-2010 at 05:01 AM

Quote: Originally posted by JamesOud

Munir Bashir is a master of space, I think he has a wonderful technique with beautiful phrasing, so you should listen closer Lutt

Even if you dont like Munir Bashir, you being a musician I hope you would be able to identify and feel his "proper" musiciansship, and appreciate his mastery

Well, I have to say that I don't like the discussion is going at all... but I feel that I have to answer.

When you say: "I think....."
I tell you: "good for you!"

But when you write: "Monir is a master"
I'll tell you: "so you say"

And when you write: "you should lisen closer lutt"
I'll tell you: "you ARE the dictator! You are a "know better" person. You think that you OWN the absolute truth. And those who disagree with you, have to learn to listen!!"

Can I put it any CLEARER? :shrug:

P.s. Rabih, no metter how good or bad he is (or you THINK he is), has created a huge WAVE in music that THOUSEND of players ARE riding. And THAT you CANNOT deny no matter what you say.

Monir, inspite of his good technique, has created NOTHING!

And of course, you DON'T have to agree with me (abviously you don't). But that does NOT intitle me to tell you that you'll have to go "listen" more!!!

See what I mean?

JamesOud - 4-14-2010 at 07:24 AM

You're so defensive Lutt, maybe you should like to some masterful Monir oud playing to calm you down...

In honesty, I think Monir is very significant and he was one of the first oud players to bring the oud to the west...thanks to Monir you may have never heard of oud Lutt.
I do sense you're a little bit heated. Im not a dictator, I just have a good point. so chill will ya, or dont, its up to you, can I put it any clearer?

Im telling you there should be standards. I dont care about popularity or waves, I care about content and who deserves to be a Master. If you think Rabih is a master then maybe I have given you too much credit as a musician with a little vision...

Chilled James

tchandler - 4-14-2010 at 08:03 AM

Perhaps this thread should have been titled "we hate Rabih Abou Khalil"!

I kind of like the idea to question the word "master" and I kind of think it's an excuse to spread negativity and scorn to those you personally dislike.

As Fernanraynoud said, you don't have to be technically virtuosic to have something to say or to make good music.

tom

JamesOud - 4-14-2010 at 10:24 AM

Dont forget Yair Dalal too...

Luttgutt - 4-14-2010 at 11:19 AM

I don't think we are speeking the same language

If you say you "think" Monir is a master, then you think Monir is a master, piriod.

But if you say Monir IS a master, I tell you who are you to decide??
And this is not ONLY about Monir or Rabih, but about ALL. Monir was just an example!

Do you understand now?

JamesOud - 4-14-2010 at 11:35 AM

Its good to see you've chilled...

eliot - 4-14-2010 at 02:07 PM

James,
I can't thank you enough for starting this thread and sticking with it.

It's important that we make every attempt to resist the somewhat ridiculous practice of labeling musicians who we're suddenly impressed by (or we individually perceive as playing better than us) as masters. It doesn't do anything positive towards furthering an appreciation or understanding of the art of the oud, and it's not helpful to the musicians themselves on their paths towards playing better/more beautiful music. Why does a musician you admire need to be a labeled "master"? What added value do they have as a master that they lack if they're "just" a good oudist, a professional player, a passionate amateur, or a diligent student – one whose playing has really moved you in that moment?

As someone who has spent a lot of time in Turkey around communities of professional folk and art musicians, including some named earlier in this thread, I've never seen the term "ustad" used by Turkish-speakers for living musicians under the age of 70. The term "hoca" (an honorific for "teacher," but which tells us more about a teacher-student relation than a comparative measure of quality) is used by students in referring to their own teacher. Being a "master" has no particular value in and of itself, and is not something you'd really want to point out in public, it is kind of embarrassing to do so.

Luttgutt - 4-15-2010 at 09:17 AM

Quote: Originally posted by JamesOud

Its good to see you've chilled...

Hey, I appriciate your concern!
But I am neither heated nor chilled. This is just an allergic reaction I have against dictators, masters, know-better persons etc..
But I am OK, it is nothing serious

JamesOud - 4-15-2010 at 10:56 AM

Its good to see you're still chilled, so much so that I think you might of over done it and are now cold, thats how your personality comes across anyway

.

It must be awful having an allergic reaction to yourself, Im glad you've been able to live with yourself all these years

bibo10 - 4-15-2010 at 12:33 PM

I think James is asking for a fight hahahahah

fhalaw - 4-15-2010 at 12:36 PM

Personally, when I think of Masters of the oud, I think of people remembered, imitated and their playing studied (or will be) long after their death.
Same as oud makers, whose ouds are sought after even when they are long gone.

People who are very mainstream. So if collectively a majority agree on the person's masterfullness , the random alternative person who disagrees doesn't matter(like Luttgut, no offense).

Personally I find Anouar Brahams music a cure for insomnia, however the guy is clearly a Master of his domain.
A lot people dont like Marcel khalifa's stuff(I worship him), but he is in himself a music institution.

Much like sports 'legends'. Its all about being Mainstream.

Luttgutt - 4-15-2010 at 12:48 PM

Quote: Originally posted by bibo10

I think James is asking for a fight hahahahah

Luttgutt - 4-15-2010 at 01:00 PM

I totally agree with fhalaw!

And YES, what I (luttgutt) think doesn't change a thing about Monir, and you (guys) shouldn't really care.
And likewise, what you say does not affect Rabia (neither me). You are free, and so am I (you keep forgetting that it seems

And I agree with James that Rabih is a good "busness man". And there are people out there that "get" the label "master" without desurving it. But who cares??? I still don't see what is the big deal!!

Yes, Rabia is a bad player and a good busness man. But can we deny him what he did for MUSIC??

Did you listen to "Al JAdida" and "Blue Camel"? If that music was good enough for Steeve Swallow and Kenny Wheeler and many more BIG worldwide know musisions to PLAY along with, I wander who we are to dismiss him with such disrespect? No matter what you or I "think" or mean.

I don't understand what is the big deal: you like whom you like and I like whom I like!

I still have the feeling that we are speeking the same language

mavrothis - 4-15-2010 at 02:02 PM

Hi guys,

I have to say I am hesitant to join this thread, but I think that I can point out that everyone is kind of correct in this discussion on mastery.

Not too long ago, I myself was made very uncomfortable by the organizer/promoter of one of my group's concerts describing me as a "master" of oud. That made me feel very uncomfortable, like an impostor really, but what I understood is that the promoter was trying to sell tickets. I also believe that the promoter does actually like my playing and me as a person, but the commercial side of it was clear in my mind. It has unfortunately become a reflexive part of the vocabulary, and does cheapen the word a little.

I honestly don't believe that I am a master of the oud, though I do on occasion enjoy the sounds I make on the oud, or the melodies that I compose. And I truly believe that many of my teachers are masters on many levels, so I feel that I know what that word means, at least in my mind, so perhaps I have the potential for mastery at some point in my life (as do we all).

The truth is, every musician is a master of their own playing. Kenny Werner's book Effortless Mastery is a great book on this topic. That I believe is the whole idea of being comfortable in your playing style.

As was said before, perhaps someone is a master of makam knowledge. A master of taksim. A master of repertoire. A master of certain techniques. Of composing, or of playing sweetly, even if the melodies are simple.

Or, perhaps a true master has mastered all of the above and more. Or, perhaps a true master is just someone who is absolutely comfortable within their playing and style - as Kenny Werner might contend.

The point is, I think that we can easily separate what we can see is simple commercial hype from true mastery of a style or instrument.

And also, I think it is important to remember that one recording session, or one concert appearance, do not always represent the best a player/singer can do. For whatever reason, whether it be perceived commercial pressures or simply being uncomfortable in a given studio or performance situation, sometimes the amazing playing you'll hear from someone in a more casual setting is not what you get in the "professional" setting, where you expect it most.

Maybe I haven't really added anything to the discussion here, but again, I think everything has pretty much been said. There are different definitions of the idea of mastery, and it is pretty easy to tell the difference between a master of marketing and a master of makam, taksim, technique, etc.

Either way, I hope we focus on the music we enjoy.

Take care,

mavrothis

JamesOud - 4-15-2010 at 06:17 PM

The point is, I think that we can easily separate what we can see is simple commercial hype from true mastery of a style or instrument. - Mavrotis

This is what Im talking about, I dont think people can or do, hence lack of quality control.

As for kenny wheeler and whoever rabih plays with, that is created by him to assert his insecurity, Im sure he knows he's bad but convincing some players thats tradition, then you cant argue with that....very smart.

Anyway, I just wish the oud was at a higher standard and not verything accepted as mastery...

Tired James...

fernandraynaud - 4-16-2010 at 12:11 AM

James, when a musician has picked on the musicianship and ethics of another musician in public more than 3 times in as many days, I attribute it to some sort of personal issue, and immediately discount whatever has been said. The bell of BS has just rung. Dingggg . I'm going to have to check out Rabih and Kenny Wheeler in depth. I had no idea, but they must be masters .... ;-)

jazzchiss - 4-16-2010 at 01:13 AM

Quote: Originally posted by JamesOud

Hey guys,

Jazzchiss, Rabih Abou khalil is not an oud virtuoso, he actually plays very poorly. He cant execute anything on his instrument properly, lets say compared to shaheen, he is worlds away, and he plays awfully out of tune. Thats why he plays with brass and the oud level is low. His compositions are his saving grace. I wouldnt consider him a master, only a "Master of advertising". Heres his virtuosity here at 5:40 where its the most awful solo with his oud out of tune for an "in the studio" session.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EK_ca0T5vw&feature=related

I don’t like this session either. It’s just a bad day. I used to by all the records of RAK. As Luttgutt said, records as Al Jadida, Blue Camel, Tarab… were remarkable, for me they are already in the history of the jazz of the end of the twentieth century. Nowadays I don’t like so much the companions he chose, but I don’t think his success is a matter of marketing, but of talent, character and leadership, and I admire him for that.

JamesOud - 4-16-2010 at 05:42 AM

Would you be happy to send Rabih as a solo ambassador for the oud?

Would you be happy for him to represent a taqasim?

If so, then thats our quality control. Im not saying dont like his music, he has great music. I also dont deny he is a leader.
My issue is the OUD. On those albums you can barely hear him play oud amongst the other instruments.

Im not trying to convince anyone, just asking why he can represent oud as a virtuoso or master when he plays it so poorly.

Luttgutt - 4-16-2010 at 06:45 AM

Dear James, I understand that you want to have some standard for oud. We all want that!

But it seems to me (and I hope that I am mistaken about that) that you want to put the standard YOURSELF! You are not alone in the world!

But at least I think I see now why we are disagreeing.
Corresct me if I am wrong, but when you write

Quote: Originally posted by JamesOud

Would you be happy for him to represent a taqasim?

I get the feeling that for you Oud=taqsim.

While for me Oud is a full worthy musical instrument that is hold by a musisien.

And that will change my whole perception of this discussion.

JamesOud - 4-16-2010 at 08:40 AM

Lutt, actually you make a good point. It seems like I wana set the standard but I dont really, I just wish that the term master or virtuoso isnt thrown around at people with basic abilities with oud. Hence a standard.
Like violin in the western world, you can tell whos not so good and whos a real master or virtuoso. Is that too much to ask that we also have a similar standard?

As for taqasim, I think its a very big part of oud and an oud players ability, something we cant deny. Sorry to bring Rabih back, but he also does taqasim in his pieces, but they are really bad, do you agree? They are even bad by musical standards. Taqasim aside, The other question is, would you be happy for Rabih to be a solo ambassador for the oud?
Again, here Im talking about Oud and not ensemble music with oud.

I think this is an important question...

JamesOud - 4-16-2010 at 08:48 AM

Ps. Should not an oud "master" or "virtuoso", have a competent knowledge of most aspects relating to oud and be able to execute them?

From Wikipedia: The defining element of virtuosity is the performance ability of the musician in question, who is capable of displaying feats of skill well above the average performer. Musicians focused on virtuosity are commonly[vague] criticized for overlooking substance and emotion in favor of raw technical prowess.

Luttgutt - 4-16-2010 at 09:48 AM

I am glad we now understand each others words (what we mean by them).

So...

1- No I don't like the term Master, or the way it is used!
I agree with Alami, Master is an old term used between teacher and student.
My judo teacher is MY master, and not A master! And I never introduce him as Master!!
I will never call any oud player a master!! But there are of course lots of them that I admire!

2- yes, taqsim is an important part of "oud" (most importantly for the conservatives!). I am NOT a conservative (And that applies not only to music!).
And I want MORE from the oud. I want the oud to become A MUSICAL INSTRUMENT in the full sense. Not just someone sitting alone playing the same.....

3- I personnaly don't like Rabia's way of playing oud. Does that make him BAD? Who am I to judge???
But as Jasschiss says, those CD's of his are now in the "hisyory of jazz"! Who can deny that?

4- And no, by no means I would want him as oud ambassador. But NEITHER would I want Monir as ambassador!!!!
Actually if you give ME the chose, and if I HAVE to, I'll chose Rabia!
P.s. The way Monir used those animal skin jackets, and poses like a self made king (Master) makes me sick!

5- The Monir school you talk about is actually Jamil Bashir's!
History can be very mean :shrug:

6- And yes, Monir is a good Taqsim and technique, but that is NOT enough for me! But I fully understand if it is enough for you. And that is perfectly OK (as long as we understand each others definitions!).

7- Rabia's "improvises" in the CD's I mentioned. He does NOT play "taqsim". There is a big defference between the two!
P.s. that does not have to do with quality, it is just two defferent musical expressions.

8- Nowadays, it is not possible anymore to be good at all styles. It is not like in the old days.
At least in my point of view. Because, as I said, I want oud to do more then "just" taqsim.

And YES, thank you for this threat

Quote: Originally posted by JamesOud

Lutt, actually you make a good point. It seems like I wana set the standard but I dont really, I just wish that the term master or virtuoso isnt thrown around at people with basic abilities with oud. Hence a standard.
Like violin in the western world, you can tell whos not so good and whos a real master or virtuoso. Is that too much to ask that we also have a similar standard?

As for taqasim, I think its a very big part of oud and an oud players ability, something we cant deny. Sorry to bring Rabih back, but he also does taqasim in his pieces, but they are really bad, do you agree? They are even bad by musical standards. Taqasim aside, The other question is, would you be happy for Rabih to be a solo ambassador for the oud?
Again, here Im talking about Oud and not ensemble music with oud.

I think this is an important question...

fhalaw - 4-16-2010 at 11:20 AM

I am think of becoming a master myself..
But maybe next week, I have too much work to do this week and a lot of laundry.

Luttgutt - 4-16-2010 at 01:01 PM

Quote: Originally posted by fhalaw

I am think of becoming a master myself..
But maybe next week, I have too much work to do this week and a lot of laundry.

)

Sazi - 4-16-2010 at 03:23 PM

I'm always wary of the term "Oud Master", especially when used in "The West", - what the heck do we know!?!

It's like when a home audio product has the word "professional" in it's name - you never see that word on REAL professional gear!

I'm sure these players don't call themselves master, but coming from the promoter it puts bums on seats.

Presenting Mr "so-so/average oud player" just wouldn't do the business!

You either get sucked into the hype, or you just reach for a risha and keep on playing..., you never know when you might turn into a Master!

JamesOud - 4-16-2010 at 06:21 PM

Well, there goes any hope of having a higher standard of oud. Any player can now be a master, with basic capabilities.

Lutt, I dont understand "thank you for this threat", did you mean thread?

Two different things with a world of difference...

Basically, as I understand now, anyone can be a master. You can perform and play badly on the stage, have no direction, as long as you manage to fool the audience. Got it!

I still think to be a Master, or even a player, you should be able to play in tune and you should be able to do taqasim, ok, lets take taqasim out of it, an improvisation. What Rabih does is neither, it has no direction or phrasing or height or sweetness and this is because he's not good at it. All his music is carried by others. Cant anyone not hear that on most if not all, his oud is not intune to begin with?

Lutt, you say "I want MORE from the oud. I want the oud to become A MUSICAL INSTRUMENT in the full sense. Not just someone sitting alone playing the same....."

Do you think its going to become this, if we have poor players representing it? Theres plenty of great stuff out there, unfortunately marketing is the real master.

An OUD MASTER should at least have a basic knowledge if not a vast knowledge of taqasim and the aspects related to it.
You also say "Nowadays, it is not possible anymore to be good at all styles. It is not like in the old days. At least in my point of view. Because, as I said, I want oud to do more then "just" taqsim."

First of all, no oud players do 'just' taqasim, its a very big part of an oud player but not 'just' the only thing.
Im also not talking about ALL STYLES, Im talking about OUD, yes, you can be good at all aspects of oud and earn the term Master or virtuoso, its just rarer and thats the point, the people that can do that are special players, earn their term master. Why do we have to group the people that cant with the people that can. This is our problem.

Thanks.

Ps. Lutt, who are the players you like and who do you listen to on the oud?

Luttgutt - 4-17-2010 at 05:21 AM

Oh NO! we are still misunderstanding each other

1- Yes, I ment Thread (bad inglish) :cool:

2- You wrote: "Any player can now be a master"

No James! I never said or ment that!
what I tried to say is that to me there are NO masters no more! We now call them teachers!!

3- I believe I was very clear in saying that I DON'T think Rabia is a good player. But that is MY opinen! And I can't, and don't want to impose my opinien on the world. Neither should you.

4- Yes there are bad players (it is inavitable. Not everybody can be good!). But there are good players too!! I just listen to those I want to listen too. Why do you need to listen to the others?? (I for one don't listen to Monir

)

5- you say
"First of all, no oud players do 'just' taqasim"

Well what did Monir do? Did he leave behind any recording that went into music history???? Rabia DID!!

6- You say:
"Im also not talking about ALL STYLES, Im talking about OUD"

Well, I don't understand your point here!? Are you talking about Oud independently of music?? As a musical instrument or as a historical instrument??

Again thanks for the Thread

JamesOud - 4-17-2010 at 07:28 AM

Im glad you werent thankful for the threat!

Monir actually has alot of pieces, most famously and played throughout the oud world is "asfour al ta'er" (The Flying bird) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQmqoAu4lPQ&feature=related
This is one of the most famous repertoire pieces for students and oud players.
Theres also plenty of music pieces by Mounir which you can find in the arab world, maybe they didnt make it into the west as much.

As, for Rabih, I don think he's in jazz history at all. If you speak to anyone about jazz, they will say Miles Davis, Dizzy Gillespie, John Coltrane etc and I assure you NO Rabih

Has he won a grammy or any jazz awards? no. Actually Anouar Brahem has, maybe because he deserves it and is a great player.

As for styles, I interpreted this as "genre", no player can be perfect on all genres.

Thanks for the responses Lutt, we're coming closer to middle ground.

Ps. which oud players do you listen to?

Luttgutt - 4-17-2010 at 08:01 AM

Yes yes, I ment "genre" not style :rolleyes:

Well of course I have heard asfour al tayer. I think it is boaring. I thik there is NOTHING musical about it (that is MY opinion, not a TRUTH). It is no more then a sale excersice to me.

There are many many many more names that it is impossible to list all, but the few you mention, Miles Davis and the rest, is the old jazz school. Rabia does not belong there, neither does Keith Jarret or Kenny Wheeler for example.

I don't know where you live, but all the CD shops I have been to in europ and states carry Rabia! NONE has Monir!
And that fact cannot be dismissed as all shop owners and byers are idiots (you are intitaled to think so, but it does not make it a truth).

Whom I listen to have varried a lot through out the years. It depends of many many factors.
And I have to say that I listen to, and learn from and try to emitate lots of musicians that don't play the oud too.
To me music is music!
I have played, on the oud, people like Keith Jarret, Paco de Lucia, Pat Matheny, Rabia (I include him here since it is his MUSIC I was interrested in, not his playing

) to mention a few. So it is the MUSIC I am intererested in!

When it comes to oud players, I listen to many, and I have no chance to mention all!
Today for instence, I listend to Alioud from this Forum

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLdMQfWWzSs

katakofka - 4-17-2010 at 09:27 AM

Oud Master? there is better...the best oud player
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AJ5Hz-mJZ4
:xtreme:

JamesOud - 4-18-2010 at 07:01 AM

Lutt, I must say you're confusing. Im sorry to say, but I feel like I have wasted my time with you.
Its great that you're open in your musical tastes, but unfortunately you are part of this bad quality control. We are talking oud, oud mastery infact and not jazz. Its great oud can appear in jazz, but there is a language there which people have created over the years for the oud and it should not be forgotten due to poor technical ability or lack of respect.

I dont care if you dont like Monirs Asfour, but that is proof that he has musical pieces, and even if its a study, well its a study and he has made more of an impact on the oud playing world, which Rabih hasnt. If he's impacted on jazz (which I stil think he hasnt) but if so, then thats jazz and not oud. And thats what this post is about. Oud mastery. Not compositional jazz mastery. But mastery of things associated with the oud.
Your other tastes, also might indicate that you havent got the ear for Arabic oud playing, and you cant see the finer things to do with oud. Tone, technique, soul, phrasing. You listed jazz artists but no oud artists. You say music is music, and I say to you Oud is Oud, it deserves time, respect and if is to move forward with quality, quality players have to be recognised and given the job of expanding it properly into other areas. Not people with poor technique and good marketing...
Anyway, Its been great discussing all of this with you, but we're on two different musical planets...I retire from this one.

Retired James.

Luttgutt - 4-18-2010 at 07:16 AM

Quote: Originally posted by JamesOud

Your other tastes, also might indicate that you havent got the ear for Arabic oud playing, and you cant see the finer things to do with oud.

I'll be more then happy to put an end to this discusson with you, James!

Not because we disagree, but because you keep on judging people the way you do (like in this quote above)!

Note that I have not once said a bad word about YOU!