Mike's Oud Forums

ARDENT DEBATES SEEM MORE ATTRACTIVE THAN ...

farukturunz - 5-9-2010 at 07:42 AM

I posted two identical announcements to the Forums.
One of them seems to have ended by reciprocal jokes (has been clicked 751 times so far) while the other seems to continue if Mike does not shut it down (has been clicked 1315 times)

I wonder if any ardent debates attract peole's interest more than any calmer ones. Of course some of the clicks have been made by the involving individuals but it is still interesting. 1315-751 = 564 is a significant difference, isn't it?

DaveH - 5-9-2010 at 11:41 AM

An interesting statistic Faruk. I sympathise with your dilemma.

When I started coming on these forums, one thing that struck me was that, while it was a very friendly place, it lacked a little controversy. Comments were always enthusiastically complementary - be they on luthiers' new ouds, member's recordings, CD reviews, whatever. I thought, wouldn't it be nice if every once in a while, people would express different (though respectful) opinions.

I've changed my mind.

While the robust exchange of views is a great thing, I'm not sure internet forums of this sort are conducive to it. What tends to happen I think, is that the same old debates get recycled again and again, with the same old arguments and views don't really change. What usually happens is that the belligerent parties come to some sort of an understanding, usually exchange a joke or two (with a generous helping of smiley faces of course) and waltz off into the sunset together, leaving the same argument to a whole new generation of belligerents in about a year's time. I'm sure you've noticed a strange sense of deja vu in that debate raging on your thread.

I find the best way to cope is to come on this great resource every now and then, post something if you really feel the urge, and ignore these controversies. After all, they're only virtual, and if you ignore them, they do go away. Just watch - this thread may also go postal, but I'll not be back on it.

I appreciate it's trickier for you as some of these arguments might pose threats to your reputation as a luthier and therefore need to be corrected, but responding to ill-informed rants can be a tricky path!

Sorry to sound a slightly cynical note on this superb forum, but I'm starting to miss some of the good old measured and above all knowledgeable (unlike me) contributors, who seem to have taken to the long grass, even if an argument every now and then does spice things up.

farukturunz - 5-9-2010 at 02:47 PM

Dear Dave,

I highly appreciate your insight. Your words distilled out of a vast understanding and wisdom. They are very precious.

Please show tolerance to my attitude showing impatience. Yes, "they are only virtual", sure they go away but they stamp some bad signs in the minds of others.

I think that, today opinions are controlled and manipulated by virtual designings more than that has ever been. I am afraid that all those virtual things go away in time but conditioned opinions stay.

With my deep respects.

Edward Powell - 5-9-2010 at 10:26 PM

Hi Faruk... I don't think you have anything to worry about - concerning some people getting conditioned against you --- in fact, all this bickering, and even the negative stuff simply draws more and more attention to you, and by default you simply become more and more well known - - - and those that "try" to hurt you are simply helping you, believe it or not, even with nasty comments!

[John Clease said that Monty Python's movie HOLY GRAIL would have just flopped had it not been for the Catholic church banning it. . . . because then suddenly everyone noticed it and HAD to see it! Ozzy Osborne also admits to the same phenomenon - after biting the head of a DOVE (not a premeditated act) out of drunkenness and anger at a record company meeting - his fame and sales skyrocketed due to the publicity and NEGATIVE contravercy.]

so you have to be only very happy about all this attention - even if it is seemingly "negative". People attacking you only proves that you are someone WORTH attacking, and in a stupid and sick say - this helps you very much. That's a weird fact.

Now, on to the business of day to day life. . . . nobody finds it fun to be attacked, even when it is actually good for business. Personally I think you would be better off simply to not respond at all when this happens. First of all, your work speaks for itself, and secondly, there are plenty who will come to your defense instantly.

What I do when this occationally happens to me - occationally I get aggressively attacked on the Fretless guitar forum (http://www.unfretted.com)... I used to fight back until as Dave pointed out, I realised that this is totally pointless and only makes matters worse. What I do, is simply and completely avoid this forum for a period of time when things get hot - I absolutely do not allow myself to read posts from those particular people who are the known attackers - or I simply avoid that forum entirely....

farukturunz - 5-9-2010 at 11:25 PM

I totally agree with you and Dave, my friend.

BTW, I am sad that you have encountered that loose neck of Ragmakamtar. Take it easy Eddi.

Ta ta ...until they understand and settle down:wavey:

Edward Powell - 5-10-2010 at 01:04 AM

how much I wish your amazing and friendly workshop would be just around the corning right now, to help me set my troubles in order. . . . . but alas I now permanently carry around with me the wisdom I gained from my time with you, and I am confident I will survive alone now in the big world - even with primative means.

by the way, my new ragmakamtar design which as you suggested, simply employs an enormous soundboard - and finally gives me a real oud-like sound on the oud neck. . . . and I am simply using 4 ladder braces so perhaps your brace tuning method will work on it?

Luttgutt - 5-10-2010 at 01:45 AM

Quote: Originally posted by farukturunz  


Ta ta ...until they understand and settle down:wavey:


Hmm.. this sounds to me pretty much like the language crimilnals use in a gangster film :shrug:

Greg - 5-10-2010 at 08:32 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Luttgutt  
Quote: Originally posted by farukturunz  


Ta ta ...until they understand and settle down:wavey:


Hmm.. this sounds to me pretty much like the language crimilnals use in a gangster film :shrug:


Mr Türünz clearly has a better understanding of vernacular English than you.
"Ta-ta" or "Ta Ta", or "Tata" means goodbye. The term is used in many English speaking countries. The Oxford English Dictionary. says this is "a version of 'goodbye' used playfully by adults" and offers 1837 as the year it came into the language.

I would ask that you choose your words more carefully, as this type of unnecessary provocation will not be tolerated.

Greg Marsh

fernandraynaud - 5-10-2010 at 02:46 PM

"will not be tolerated" ??? Respectfully I ask: After all this don't you think nature can safely run it's course?

Peyman - 5-10-2010 at 04:37 PM

I thought it was "ta-da." ;)

ameer - 5-10-2010 at 04:52 PM

Ta-da is more of an exclamation upon unvailing something new in my experience. While I've only heard it a few times ta-ta is a valid though less than well known goodbye phrase.

Edward Powell - 5-10-2010 at 09:11 PM

"ta ta" means "Dad" in Czech :))

littleseb - 5-11-2010 at 12:21 AM

'ta ta' is the noise a trumpet makes, if played correctly.

Edward Powell - 5-11-2010 at 12:28 AM

Quote: Originally posted by littleseb  
'ta ta' is the noise a trumpet makes, if played correctly.


TATA is also a company that makes Camions in India :cool:

...and there is a Czech rock group called the TATA BOYZ :shrug:

littleseb - 5-11-2010 at 12:35 AM

i tried to kickstart my moped this morning, but all i got out of it was a miserable 'ta ta', rather than the desired 'tackatackatacka'. hence i had to ride my pushbike and was half an hour late for work.....

Aymara - 5-11-2010 at 03:38 AM

Hi everybody,

please calm down ... no need to worry ... the market will heal itself ;)

Let's compare Türünz ouds to Gibson guitars. A long time ago Gibson raised the prices for it's wonderful instruments more and more. And what happened? Some day the market for high priced guitars got saturated and Gibson introduced lower price models, that are also very good.

And besides that, there are many other brands, that are as good as Gibson.

So ... no need to worry or to get angry or attack anybody ... it's just a matter of time ;)

fernandraynaud - 5-11-2010 at 04:19 AM

And another thing will happen that we may or may not want to happen with ouds: the Chinese.

I have a vintage Gibson ES335, a Martin D-18 and a Fender Precision bass, all from the 1960s, and they are considered primo and are worth some serious money. The point is, Turunz oud owners, hang on to your instruments until you are old.

For a project I needed a short scale fretless bass, a five string fretted with steel strings and I wanted a fretless 6 string. By knowing what to look for and where, I got Chinese Electric basses that met ALL the requirements, including great looks, for about $120 each. In truth they actually are no worse than my primo vintage instruments.

They even make ancient instruments like viola da gambas. The oud is not a tiny market, the Chinese will apear at some point. We might want to think about how we will relate to that!

Alnoud85 - 5-11-2010 at 04:31 AM

If you type the name of any well know product in the world in to google followed by the word review you will find all diffrent views, opinions list of pros, cons and feedbacks which thousands of people view regardless of it being positive or negative.

With all due respect to everyone who commented on the "Ardent debate", It is the place of the market to decide what is reasonable, desirable and acceptable in regards to any product, not the manufaturer close friends and or family members.

After all this is a oud forum and we were discussing an oud in a polite, proper and respectable manner.

Yassir Alnoud:wavey:

Aymara - 5-11-2010 at 04:36 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  
And another thing will happen that we may or may not want to happen with ouds: the Chinese.


Wasn't it a few months ago, that someone here in the forums found the first Chinese ouds on Ebay? I'm not quite shure.

And what about Turkish ouds? Aren't there already cheap factory build models on the market?

PS: Besides these facts, Faruk Türünz is some kind of pioneer with his double soundboards. BUT others will follow. I expect, that the oud will develop further very soon ... the more popular it gets, the more development will take place. Who knows, if adjustable necks won't become standard one time or maybe adjustable bridges?

Edward Powell - 5-11-2010 at 04:47 AM

There is one famous oud maker (not mentioning names) that was approached by a Chinese company who offered to build for him in China, with computerized machines, all the oud parts. This maker refused.

Aymara - 5-11-2010 at 04:50 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell  
This maker refused.


But maybe another won't ... some time.

Because the oud's popularity still rises, I expect the market to get devided into mass market and high end market ... maybe traditional too.

Isn't that already the case in Turkey? I'm not shure.

Sazi - 5-11-2010 at 04:54 AM

Maybe more people will make their own ouds?

Aymara - 5-11-2010 at 04:56 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Sazi  
Maybe more people will make their own ouds?


Possible, but who will, when good quality becomes available cheap? Only enthusiasts.

Sazi - 5-11-2010 at 05:09 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara  
Only enthusiasts.


That'd be us then...

littleseb - 5-11-2010 at 05:52 AM

when i started my personal oud journey i would have been happy if there would have been a cheap mass-produced made-in-china-oud with a fairly decent sound quality. that would have safed me looking for a semi-decent sukar for months on end and would have helped me to decide whether i actually wanted to learn properly.
but that's off-topic i guess, and i seem to remember that there was some sort of threat on this a while back....

fernandraynaud - 5-11-2010 at 06:40 PM

I actually chased down the Chinese company that was advertising ouds back then. As I expected, they lied and said they had them, but then admitted they had merely taken photos of existing ouds and they told me they could easily deliver instruments "like that" in quantity if I was prepared to place an order. It IS just a matter of time. I have greatest respect for makers like Sukar who are producing solid "volkswagen" ouds like his Model 1 in batches at reasonable prices, applying techniques he developed making high-end instruments like his Model 211, 212 and 14. I was very interested to learn that Sukar refuses to use the costliest woods, it reminds me of what Aymara-Chris once said about the ecological implications of so many boutique luthiers using rare woods. We will see how all this works out.

It's unfortunate that Western companies have equipped the Chinese State with all the tools and computerized milling machines they needed to compete with and wipe out their own industries. At least when I purchased several excellent Chinese electric bases inexpensively, I was pretty sure I wasn't putting any locally-producing electric instrument makers out of work, as there were none left. :)

fernandraynaud - 5-11-2010 at 11:10 PM


Btw if someone here is tempted by the idea of a fretless 6 string electric bass, and yes it's very "Oudy", these guys are very good to do business with, they will refund 100% including shipping (!) if you don't like an instrument. Their short scale 4 string fretless SX basses are very sweet at $110, I got their $139 short scale 4 string "jaguar style" SX fretless and it's my favorite bass, like it better than my vintage $10,000 Fender Precision. They are low on inventory at the moment I see, but this is a very nice one, though a little more. The quality and QA on the Brice brand is excellent.

http://www.rondomusic.com/hxb406natspfl.html

Kurt is the owner, he's adored by the bass community.
http://www.rondomusic.com

Aymara - 5-11-2010 at 11:53 PM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  
At least when I purchased several excellent Chinese electric bases inexpensively, I was pretty sure I wasn't putting any locally-producing electric instrument makers out of work, as there were none left. :)


Does that mean Gibson, Fender & Co. are producing everything in China too?

But back to topic ... I fear, that when the oud gets popular enough in the Western world, that the market might get flooded with Chinese factory ouds.

But what will be the result? I think, a few "small" luthery workshops will remain and only sell to the local arabic oud market. But what about the famous luthiers? Will they survive?

Edward Powell - 5-12-2010 at 12:33 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara  
I fear, that when the oud gets popular enough in the Western world, that the market might get flooded with Chinese factory ouds.

But what will be the result? I think, a few "small" luthery workshops will remain and only sell to the local arabic oud market. But what about the famous luthiers? Will they survive?


just look at what has happened to the guitar market. . . the oud market will more or less replicate that - probably.

fernandraynaud - 5-12-2010 at 12:46 AM

Yes. Gibson & Fender produce 95% (?) in China. Better ones in Korea and Mexico, and a few "prime" units in the US. The company management should be fired, because the Chinese are proving that a modest investment in machinery could have worked. The capitalist idiots have no long term view and they gave the first world away to China.

As the Chinese get better at it, the same factory is making instruments under various labels, so a SX bass is the same as a Fender/Squier. The Brice instruments e.g. were being made in Korea as of 2 years ago, and they are better than the ordinary Gibsons and Fenders. Everything changes unannounced.

The impact on ouds will play out, probably first on the electric ones.

Edward Powell - 5-12-2010 at 12:55 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  
The capitalist idiots.....


...that's because they have absolutely no nationalistic regard. Power and money are a global thing now, and the corperation is the new boss (or the new Hitler depending on how you see it).

fernandraynaud - 5-12-2010 at 01:41 AM

There is hope. Even the guitar market is still changing. All it takes is a "fad" like "unplugged" to dramatically change everything - who would have thought that acoustic and "world" instruments would be so popular? Yet they are, and the oud is one of them.

Regardless of it's specific role in the Arab world, the (unquestionably just beginning) rise of the oud is happening on the world stage, not because everyone recognizes it as a beautiful instrument (I wish), but because we are in and out of that stupid "organic music" phase -- so these are very very complex interactions, not analogous to the bigger guitar market.

But because IF the oud becomes a mainstream instrument in pop music it will benefit Arab culture and politics in many ways, the promotion of the oud during this (realistically) narrow window of opportunity (an opportunity caused by a naive and sentimental view of "natural instruments and folk music" on the part of a large segment of the youth and young adult markets of Europe and the US), this opportunity, in any case, should be very seriously exploited.

Anything that promotes its success (like even that "Arabian" label) should be embraced in the interest of the whole. That's how it is. The pricing discussion has to be seen in that light as well.

We may come to similar points in relation to the Chinese problem, where the "greater good" might mean accepting some losses.

But not wanting to have your people and culture destroyed is not "nationalism". Accepting the lowest cost of labor performed by a population enslaved, by a regime that aims to devour you, is just stupidity.

Aymara - 5-12-2010 at 03:19 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell  

...that's because they have absolutely no nationalistic regard.


How could they in a world of globalization? But Fernand is right, they are idiots nevertheless, because they are only interested in short term profit, though they should know better from university.
Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  
... IF the oud becomes a mainstream instrument in pop music it will benefit Arab culture and politics in many ways, ...


As I said in the Jazz discussion before, to make Westerners interested in arabic music/instruments is a way to overcome Racism and bad political propaganda, which is told them by CNN & Co. nowadays ... people learn, that there is more about the arabic world than terrosism and Islam ... there are friendly people, an interesting culture, etc..

And there is even more ... what about the youth? In my region live many Turkish people and most of the young people mainly listen to Western charts and Hip-Hop. Isn't there a similar trend in Turkey and other "arabic" countries?
Imagine a successful Hip-Hop band, that uses oud and darbuca instead of rhythm boxes and sound samples ... nearly all traditionalists would call that crap, but the youth would automatically get more interested into their cultural roots.

Music is the language that overcomes borders :airguitar:

Edward Powell - 5-12-2010 at 04:04 AM

truth in what you say Chris, and it is this attitude of promoting peach thru learning about the cultures of other parts of the world has a lot to do with why I went into Indian and Oriental music....

but the other side of the coin is that putting oriental sounds into western music can be little more than changing from chocolate to vanilla icing on the Western Dominated cake. A bit like a small oriental spice tasted on totally WESTERN TERMS. Probably better than nothing. . . . . but........:shrug:

Aymara - 5-12-2010 at 04:39 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell  
Probably better than nothing. . . . . but........:shrug:


I would call it a first start. Imagine someone, who starts getting interested in Jazz ... if he/she starts with "easy listening" Jazz it might be the first step to further Jazz interest development. If the start would be Free Jazz, it might be the abrupt end of this interest :D

I think with the introduction of Westerners to world music it's similar ... "baby steps" usually do work better ;)

fernandraynaud - 5-13-2010 at 04:49 AM

I was contacted on u2u by a member perhaps VERY carefully avoiding asking anything even remotely off-topic. The answer is: Without going into details, a 6 string fretless bass and oud are somehow very similar and compatible. My post higher in this thread links to an excellent source for 6 string fretless basses, namely Kurt at RondoMusic.com. They usually have a Douglas at $189. The $279 Brice is probably a better one. I see a $149 5 string today. They refund even shipping if you don't like anything, and they have guitars, like a 12 string fretless.


Aymara: On the Jazz, I agree of course that a little exposure is better than none. But the issue that Edward was correctly identifying was whether there is actually even a baby dose of Sharky musical content in these. What I was jokingly referring to as "crap" was the totally ersatz stuff, where a minor scale and a ney sound (and maybe a belly dancer) are supposed to convey "the Arabian expanse", or other ethnic cliché. The only positive "baby steps" in such cases might be exposing the bourgies to the sight of an oud.

But as recently duly beaten-up newcomers here who post too much, off-topic, in a culturally incorrect way, because we are deficient and seeking recognition, and most importantly because we are "empty vessels", let us better keep quiet so our elders can have the "breathing room" to feed us "official and tested" opinions at the approved rate.

Ararat66 - 5-13-2010 at 09:14 AM

Here's to empty vessels . may they become full to the brim:xtreme:

Edward Powell - 5-13-2010 at 10:29 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  
I was contacted on u2u by a member perhaps VERY carefully avoiding asking anything even remotely off-topic.


I personally very much hope you and the rest of us will keep posting just as we all have. Keep rockin' and keep this GREAT FORUM ALIVE!

THANKS MIKE, YOU ROCK!

spyros mesogeia - 5-13-2010 at 01:57 PM

Thank you my friend,
I am the member that asked about those instruments and I really apreciate your help.
Best Regards
Spyros

Branko - 5-14-2010 at 02:49 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  
.
we are deficient and seeking recognition, and most importantly because we are "empty vessels", let us better keep quiet so our elders can have the "breathing room" to feed us "official and tested" opinions at the approved rate.


fernandraynaud, I haven't seen anyone pointing you in the discussion on the topic of big effluent. Why that harsh self-assessment?
:(

Brian Prunka - 5-14-2010 at 08:24 PM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  
Yes. Gibson & Fender produce 95% (?) in China. Better ones in Korea and Mexico, and a few "prime" units in the US.


This is very misleading. All guitars that say "Gibson" on the headstock are made in the U.S. (with the exception of counterfeits/forgeries/unauthorized copies, of which there are indeed a number made in China).
Epiphone indeed makes many guitars in China, but they are no more "Gibson" guitars than a Toyota is a Lexus. The best Epiphones are made in Japan, while certain middle models are still made in Korea.

The majority of Fender guitars are made in Mexico and the US, although they do produce low-end guitars in a number of other countries, including China and Singapore. They used to make terrific guitars in Japan, but I think that's stopped. Even some "Mexican" Fenders are made in the California factory, depending on relative factory capacities at the time (they are fairly close to one another), although the instruments designated "Mexican" are of lower-grade woods and finishes.

China is producing some great instruments (Eastman), though, and will doubtless get better.

Aymara - 5-14-2010 at 10:07 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  

Epiphone indeed makes many guitars in China, but they are no more "Gibson" guitars than a Toyota is a Lexus.


But Epiphone is still listed on the Gibson website. So it seems, it's still an entry level "sub-brand" like Squier for Fender.

Brian Prunka - 5-15-2010 at 06:18 AM

It's not a sub-brand in the same way that Squier is, since Squier is just a name Fender introduced for their cheaper guitars, much like Toyota and Lexus, or Honda and Acura, etc.

Epiphone is an actual company that was later bought by the same company that owns Gibson.

From Wikipedia:
Quote:
The history of Epiphone started in 1873, in Smyrna, Ottoman Empire (now İzmir, Turkey), where Greek founder Anastasios Stathopoulos made his own fiddles and lutes (oud, laouto). Stathopoulos moved to the United States of America in 1903, and continued to make his original instruments, as well as mandolins, from Long Island City in Queens, New York. Anastasios died in 1915, and his son, Epaminondas, took over. After two years, the company was known as The House Of Stathopoulos. Just after the end of World War I, the company started to make banjos. The company produced its Recording Line of Banjos in 1924, and, four years later, took on the name of the "Epiphone Banjo Company". They produced their first guitars in 1928. Epi Stathopoulos died in 1943. Control of the company went to his brothers, Orphie and Frixo. Unfortunately, they were not as capable owners as Epi. In 1951, a four month long strike forced a relocation of Epiphone from New York to Philadelphia. The company was bought out by their main rival, Gibson in 1957. In the famous "Dueling Banjos" scene in the 1972 motion picture Deliverance, actor Ronny Cox plays an Epiphone acoustic


I wonder if anyone still owns an Epiphone oud?! Who knew that a major American guitar brand started out as a luthier's shop in Izmir?

It's true that Gibson's parent company more or less treats Epiphone as a entry level marketing strategy, but not exactly. Epiphone has its own president, still, and produces a number of distinct guitars that are related to its history (Sheraton, Casino, Broadway), and some of their high end guitars are actually made in the U.S.

But Fernand's statement is definitely false. No actual Gibson guitars are made in China, and to my knowledge no Fender guitars are either.
Many Epiphone and Squier guitars are made in China, but it's not same thing.

Multi Kulti - 5-15-2010 at 06:37 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  

I wonder if anyone still owns an Epiphone oud?! Who knew that a major American guitar brand started out as a luthier's shop in Izmir?



As i know there are no Epiphone-oud (actually you would call it a Stathopoulo's oud) found ..only bouzoukis and lutes... if you are interested you can see here http://oldbouzoukia.wordpress.com/ some old Stathopoulos and read about the story of the Family.. Actually they come from Sparta,Greece and then they moved to Smyrna because of a better instrument-market...


Nikos

Aymara - 5-15-2010 at 08:39 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  
Who knew that a major American guitar brand started out as a luthier's shop in Izmir?


I didn't and find it very interesting as Nikos' addition too :bowdown:

Brian Prunka - 5-15-2010 at 07:03 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Multi Kulti  
Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  

I wonder if anyone still owns an Epiphone oud?! Who knew that a major American guitar brand started out as a luthier's shop in Izmir?



As i know there are no Epiphone-oud (actually you would call it a Stathopoulo's oud) found ..only bouzoukis and lutes... if you are interested you can see here http://oldbouzoukia.wordpress.com/ some old Stathopoulos and read about the story of the Family.. Actually they come from Sparta,Greece and then they moved to Smyrna because of a better instrument-market...


Nikos


Thanks for that Nikos, the story is very interesting. Here's a direct link:
http://oldbouzoukia.wordpress.com/2009/05/29/luthier-anastasios-stathopoulo/

fernandraynaud - 5-15-2010 at 10:08 PM

"Fernand's statement is definitely false"

- Really? Not just "mistaken"? A lie, then?

Maybe I'm a bit touchy, but that's not being suitably cautious, nice or respectful. On what grounds would you say "Definitely"? It's constantly changing, as I said. Here for instance is Gibson's own long-forgotten press-release.

http://www.gibson.com/GBME_News.aspx?AliasPath=/Products/GBME/Sub+P...

They said Gibson, they said China, and THEY said the numbers are "huge". Who knows all subsequent details. Wikipedia is hardly a credible source about corporate internals. I don't know what the true numbers are/were and when. But stop for a moment; do you seriously accept the notion that that little plant in Nashville, with that one guy hand-spraying the finishes, produces all the Gibson-labeled guitars on the world market?

Without being verbose, in their own words: Company Name: Beijing Zhen Musical Instrument Co., Ltd.
Company Address: #8-2-3, No. 1 Baiziwan Road, Chaoyang District, Beijing, China
Our business focus on Musical instruments, for example, guitar, we have the brand of Gibson, Epiphone, Fender, Ibanez, Jackson, Olp etc.
The guitars I understood were made FOR Fender, Gibson, etc, and didn't seem like black market stuff, and the numbers looked significant. I have no idea what is "definitely" anything any longer, and that's as far as want to go with this. But please don't just call someone a liar, or G might go ballistic and M will possibly delete the entire forum to be on the safe side. :D :))

fernandraynaud - 5-15-2010 at 10:27 PM

p.s. Judging by this, things are not simple on the Gibson mass marketing front

http://dockets.justia.com/docket/court-tnmdce/case_no-3:2008cv00279...

.. .what WAS the topic again? Ah, ARDENT DEBATE. So it's on-topic! That's not like the admin coming in and deleting the single most moving example of conflict-resolution without the use of censorship or billy clubs. A wonderful story, in which alienated family members were at last coming together, while strangers were amiably solving their differences, and ardent folks with widely divergent views all ended up in a "Lassie" or "Walt Disney" ending, leaving the scene virtually hugging, with practically tears in their eyes! Religious people were coming from far just to touch the servers this demonstrably happened on, and (after it was all over) (but just before anybody had a chance to save it all and present it to the Vatican, or to the great Ecumenical conference in Jerusalem, or at least on Oprah), the admin tread in with combat boots because he'd heard of conflict, and wiped out the whole thread, and this most precious evidence of Man's ability to cooperate went up in bits, never to be believed! That's like burning the Dead Sea Scrolls to prevent controversy! :( :shrug: :)

Aymara - 5-16-2010 at 12:18 AM

Mmh, maybe we ALL should have a tea to calm down and hope the forums will soon come back to the harmony, they were so famous for!

Brian Prunka - 5-16-2010 at 06:33 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  
"Fernand's statement is definitely false"

- Really? Not just "mistaken"? A lie, then?


I didn't say you were lying, I said the statement is false. I made no judgment of your intent or character.

Quote:

Maybe I'm a bit touchy, but that's not being suitably cautious, nice or respectful. On what grounds would you say "Definitely"?

Well, for one thing, they all prominently say "Made in the USA" on them, and on hollowbodies the label inside it say which US plant made the guitar. Unless Gibson is engaging in fraud, of which we have no evidence, then they are definitely made in the US.
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It's constantly changing, as I said. Here for instance is Gibson's own long-forgotten press-release.

http://www.gibson.com/GBME_News.aspx?AliasPath=/Products/GBME/Sub+P...


That's not a press release, it's an excerpt from a newspaper artice, written for a Nashville paper. Here's a link to the article:
http://nashvillecitypaper.com/content/city-business/gibson-cues-mass-market
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They said Gibson, they said China, and THEY said the numbers are "huge". Who knows all subsequent details.

If you read the article, there is nothing in it supporting your original assertion that Gibson guitars are made in China. and the "They" is the newspaper, not Gibson per se.
This appears to be about the line of guitars which they are offering at Best Buy, called "Maestro". Again, not "Gibson".
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Wikipedia is hardly a credible source about corporate internals. I don't know what the true numbers are/were and when. But stop for a moment; do you seriously accept the notion that that little plant in Nashville, with that one guy hand-spraying the finishes, produces all the Gibson-labeled guitars on the world market?
'The' plant in Nashville isn't so little, they have more than one location in Nashville and have been expanding:
http://nashvillecitypaper.com/content/city-news/gibson-guitar-begins-24-million-expansion
Also, they have plants in Memphis, TN and Bozeman, Montana. Conspiracy theories and innuendo are hardly more credible than Wikipedia. Do you really think that if there was a company-wide conspiracy to label Chinese-made guitars as being "Made in the USA" complete with faked labels
as to the US origin that some disgruntled employees wouldn't have blown the whistle on it and caused a huge scandal (and it would be huge if it were true).
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Without being verbose, in their own words: Company Name: Beijing Zhen Musical Instrument Co., Ltd.
Company Address: #8-2-3, No. 1 Baiziwan Road, Chaoyang District, Beijing, China
Our business focus on Musical instruments, for example, guitar, we have the brand of Gibson, Epiphone, Fender, Ibanez, Jackson, Olp etc.
The guitars I understood were made FOR Fender, Gibson, etc, and didn't seem like black market stuff, and the numbers looked significant.


That does obviously seem like black market, if it's even legit. If you care to look, a number of folks seem to have been defrauded by this "company", sending them money and not even receiving guitars.

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I have no idea what is "definitely" anything any longer,

And yet you confidently say that "95%" of Gibson guitars are made in China?
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But please don't just call someone a liar

I didn't.

I'm done discussing this. I wanted to correct the misinformation you were spreading, from here on everyone can decide for themselves.


Mike - 5-16-2010 at 08:36 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  


.. .what WAS the topic again? Ah, ARDENT DEBATE. So it's on-topic! That's not like the admin coming in and deleting the single most moving example of conflict-resolution without the use of censorship or billy clubs. A wonderful story, in which alienated family members were at last coming together, while strangers were amiably solving their differences, and ardent folks with widely divergent views all ended up in a "Lassie" or "Walt Disney" ending, leaving the scene virtually hugging, with practically tears in their eyes! Religious people were coming from far just to touch the servers this demonstrably happened on, and (after it was all over) (but just before anybody had a chance to save it all and present it to the Vatican, or to the great Ecumenical conference in Jerusalem, or at least on Oprah), the admin tread in with combat boots because he'd heard of conflict, and wiped out the whole thread, and this most precious evidence of Man's ability to cooperate went up in bits, never to be believed! That's like burning the Dead Sea Scrolls to prevent controversy! :( :shrug: :)


You seem angry. In the past 6 or 7 years, I've NEVER felt compelled enough to "censor" an entire thread like I just recently did. Why? Because I never felt like it needed to be done. Fathom that. One other thing, this will be the last time I address you, so if you feel like responding with a few hundred word response, mixing in...what you may believe to be witty.... analogies, I ask you to please refrain. If it will make you feel better to get the last word, then have at it. I most likely won't even read it, and I could care less how you think is the best way to run these forums.

fernandraynaud - 5-16-2010 at 12:31 PM

Yes, I was angry. Had my tea. We disagreed. Spoke my peace. Hope I didn't upset anyone. Thank you. Especially for hosting this wonderful forum.