Mike's Oud Forums

Iraqi Oud Tayyar,

Chris_Khouri - 8-11-2004 at 06:31 AM

I found this 3ood for sale in ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=621&...


what do u guys think?

Hilal :D

Zulkarnain - 8-11-2004 at 06:35 AM

Hi

Check out Zeryab Maqamat - Naseer Shamma CD. on the inside notes theres an image of him holding a similar Oud to that (single hole).


Salam

Walidk - 8-12-2004 at 06:17 AM

Hi,
I have a Tayyar Iraqi Oud. Somewhat similar since mine is also a Bashir oud.

Tayyar brothers are of Iraqi origins and they have settled down in Montreal area.
They make very high quality music instruments. The craftsmanship is supberb, and their work is very clean.
They told me that Munir Bashir has one of their ouds. Also they used to repair Munir's ouds made by Fadel.

They make theirs a bit shorter than the arabic style oud which makes it more comfortable for playing.

I bought mine about three years ago directly from them and I'm very happy with it. Excellent sustain (I use Daddario strings), projection and good action.
Mine is a bit different though. It has a cut-away style at the neck for ease of playing. Also the design of the neck is very unique, since there is no straight joint on the neck. It is as if it's a block. This design according to Tayyar prevent the neck from bending at high tensions.
My oud is made of all rosewood except the for the ebony pegs and spruce face.

As I said earlier, I love my oud. Mine cost me at the time twice as much as the one posted on Ebay.

Hope this helps.

spyrosc - 8-12-2004 at 04:22 PM

Hey Brother,

Can you post some pictures of your oud, especially the neck joint ? We are very interested in oud construction details.

Shukran
Spyros C.

journeyman - 8-13-2004 at 04:16 AM

I teach at York University and there are Middle Eastern music courses there. The professor there, Rob Simms, told me that they have bought several ouds by Tahir in Montreal and he thinks that they are great. He also commented on how he often experiments with different designs for his ouds. It would be interesting to see one with a cutaway.

Cheers,
Roy

Walidk - 8-13-2004 at 04:59 AM

I'll try to take some pics and post them soon.

thx.

Walidk - 8-13-2004 at 05:57 AM

here are some pics.

Cheers,
Walid.

Walidk - 8-13-2004 at 06:00 AM

Neck and face.
The blemishes on the finish of fingerboard are caused by my sweaty fingers. Anybody has a solution for sweaty hands/fingers problem.
Maybe this is a topic for a new thread.

Thx.
Walid.

Walidk - 8-13-2004 at 06:02 AM

More detail of fingerboard.

Walidk - 8-13-2004 at 06:03 AM

General view of back.

Walidk - 8-13-2004 at 06:05 AM

cut-away and neck.

Walidk - 8-13-2004 at 06:07 AM

Pegbox. This design on the tip of pegbox is their trademark.

Walidk - 8-13-2004 at 06:08 AM

General view of oud.

Walidk - 8-13-2004 at 06:09 AM

Another neck detail.

chuckerbutty - 8-13-2004 at 06:29 AM

Interesting instrument. I see what you mean about the neck joint - it looks like the neck and the neck block are a single piece.

Oud neck

spyrosc - 8-13-2004 at 08:42 AM

I've played an oud made in 1979 by our own Dr. Oud that had an identical neck (without the cut-away). I always wondered how you would straighten the neck out if you had to, but you're saying it actually prevents the neck from needing to be straightened.

Spyros C.

Walidk - 8-13-2004 at 09:47 AM

Fortunately I don't have to tinker with the neck (if it ever bends). The makers (Tayyar brothers) actually guarantee their work. They would fix it or give me another oud if this ever happens.

Walid.

journeyman - 8-13-2004 at 03:15 PM

Hello Walidk,
Do you find the cutaway useful? I hace a cutaway on my classical guitar and find it very useful, especially for playing jazz and Brazilian music. Do you find it hard to play an oud with no cutaway now that you are used to yours?

Cheers,
Roy

mavrothis - 8-13-2004 at 03:20 PM

Hey guys,

That is a great idea for making playing higher on the face easier.

That might be a solution for preventing "oud back" from playing high notes.
;)

Thanks for sharing,

mav

Elie Riachi - 8-13-2004 at 07:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by spyrosc
I always wondered how you would straighten the neck out if you had to,

Spyros C.


Hello,

If ever needed to straighten the neck, I would assume planing the finger board level with the sound board will take care of it.

Very nice looking oud. Very clean work. I can only guess at how the ribs are joined at cut-away!!!!

Impressed,
Elie

revaldo29 - 8-13-2004 at 07:18 PM

Is it just me or is the sound hole on these ouds smaller than usual? If so, how does that affect the sound?

Walidk - 8-14-2004 at 07:23 AM

Thanks for all your comments.

As far as cut-away being helpful when playing high notes..it does help a bit. But as you can see most professional players don't use (and don't need) one. I think after playing for a while on any instrument, you fingers get used to it. Playing on a cut-away oud does not hinder your playing on a regular oud, but it just makes the high notes a bit more reachable.
Bottom line, IMHO, it's how good you can play. And that's of course a function of how much you practice..cut-away or no cu-away does not make a lof of difference.

As far as sound hole size. Yes it is a bit smaller. It does not affect the sound at all. look at holes in violins and other instruments..I think there was a lenghty topic on this subject with scientific explanations of sound waves etc. previously on this. I think everybody agrees that a couple of cm more or less will change nothing of the sound projection of the oud.

Regards,

Walid.

Zulkarnain - 8-14-2004 at 09:02 AM

Hi Walidk

I agree with you and IMO if anyone need a cut away instrument..pick up the guitar.


Salam

Jonathan - 8-14-2004 at 09:21 AM

It seems like that is the problem. Electric ouds, cut-aways--maybe we are starting to think of the oud as nothing more than a fretless guitar. A pity.

Dr. Oud - 8-14-2004 at 07:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by spyrosc
I've played an oud made in 1979 by our own Dr. Oud that had an identical neck (without the cut-away). I always wondered how you would straighten the neck out if you had to, but you're saying it actually prevents the neck from needing to be straightened.
Spyros C.

Could you please send or post a picture of your 1979 Hankey oud? I am very curious about which one it is. I've attached a picture of a Turkish style oud I made in 1980 with an extended neck joint.
1980 Turkish Style
This increases the surface area to strengthen the neck/body joint, but it will not prevent neck warp. This oud has not shown any warp and the action is still very playable. The neck is stabilized with a center beam of walnut laminated between the 2 pieces of mahogany. The neck of the oud seldom warps unless the wood is green or soft or the grain is flat anyway. One warp causing feature is the notch cut into the neck for the peg box. Without any reinforcement this will weaken the neck at the top allowing the neck to bend up. By far the biggest problem in raising action is the bending of the body of the oud. The back really doesn't have much structural resistance to the string tension other than the ribs, and they are often too thin to contribute much stiffness. This is why the end of mandolins and many European lutes has a doubler rib wrapped around the tail. Many old ouds I've seen show evidence of the body having been trimmed down to realign the tail end with the fingerboard and lower the action. With the extended neck joint I believe the body trim is the best method to realign the neck. There usually is not enough material on the top of the neck to plane it into alignment.

Elie Riachi - 8-14-2004 at 10:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Oud

By far the biggest problem in raising action is the bending of the body of the oud. The back really doesn't have much structural resistance to the string tension other than the ribs, and they are often too thin to contribute much stiffness.


How about bracing the back Doc?

Elie

Dr. Oud - 8-15-2004 at 08:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Elie Riachi
How about bracing the back Doc?
Elie

I am planning on using a carbon fiber laminate around the inside of the top rib to stiffen the body. The Lemon oud pictured has an extra thick top rib (3mm), but the relentless tension over time will still bend it up. It has raised only 1/16 inch over 24 years so far....
I am encouraged to see some innovation like this Tahir oud. There will always be traditional designs, but I believe it's high time oud makers started to incorporate some of the developments being used in classical guitar construction, like: Fan, Lattice, or Kasha bracing using carbon fiber/balsa laminates, etc. These new approaches have dramatically improved the sound of classical guitars, why not ouds too?

Elie Riachi - 8-15-2004 at 09:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Oud
I am encouraged to see some innovation like this Tahir oud. There will always be traditional designs, but I believe it's high time oud makers started to incorporate some of the developments being used in classical guitar construction, like: Fan, Lattice, or Kasha bracing using carbon fiber/balsa laminates, etc. These new approaches have dramatically improved the sound of classical guitars, why not ouds too?


Hello Doc,

I have noticed that my presumably "Yaseen Ali Khalefeh" tourist oud, utilizes fan bracing for the lower part of the sound board!

I have an Oscar Shmidt acoustic guitar (fan bracing) and comparing it to my oud and my son's plain braced guitar, my guitar seemed somewhat quiter than the latter two.

I wonder to what extent, if any, the fan and lattice bracing patterns impede the resonance of the sound board as compared to the plain bracing pattern?

I know that one advantage is that they distribute the vibration along the sound board, but I would think a sound board, with the grain properly oriented, already has that advantage. Just wondering.

Elie

journeyman - 8-20-2004 at 06:32 AM

Hello Eli,
I am not a builder, but I am sure that there are many other factors contributing to volume. The Spanish were the first builders to use fan bracing in guitars, and one theory is that it gave their instruments more volume than guitars with the lateral bracing used in the rest of Europe. Volume was an issue for the Spanish as their style of song and dance was more robust than in the rest of Europe. When the French and Italians started using single-strung six string guitars, the Spanish stayed with the six-course, paired-string instruments, presumably because they produced more volume. As a non-builder, the question for me is what contributes to the volume of an oud more, the bracing or the liveliness of the lightweight construction. My rosewood Shehata oud is quite heavy and does not have a lot of volume; evenness and sustain yes, but volume, no. Just a few observations and idle thoughts.

Cheers,
Roy

Elie Riachi - 8-20-2004 at 08:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by journeyman

My rosewood Shehata oud is quite heavy and does not have a lot of volume; evenness and sustain yes, but volume, no. Just a few observations and idle thoughts.

Cheers,
Roy


Hi Roy,
What type of bracing does your Shahata oud have? How would you rate it in terms of loudness relative to other ouds?

Also are you getting enough tension in the strings (what is the tension of the strings)? I think 8 to 9 pounds is acceptable. Note the plain nylon strings should be about a 1.5 pounds or so higher because they stretch out the first few days. Also, the tension becomes lower when the scale length is shorter than scale length at which the strings tensions are indicated to obtain the open string notes. In this case denser or higher tension string sets are used to bring the tension higher.

See, I think it is a battle, louder can be acheived by higher string tension, this leads to strengthening the bracing or coming up with a stronger bracing pattern for the mass which means fan bracing and other than the travers bracing. In my oppinion, this might kill some of the low frequency harmonics produced by the top and create distributed regions which might be restricted to produce the higher harmonics. At this point, I think it starts sounding more like a piano (for a lack of a better description.) This is how I think the guitar sounds. On the other hand, I think, an oud made using the transverse type bracing sounds more like a banjo (again for the lack of a better description.) I am not ruling out other types of bracing. The way I interpert the article regarding the lattice bracing which Dr. oud posted the link to earlier is this:

lattice structures can have much higher strength / mass ratio which create stronger and lighter structures. Using lattice type of bracing, one can make the soundboard even lighter hoping that the combined lattice brace and soundboard will add up to a system which would be stronger and lighter than the traditional brace/soundboard system (kind of like the construction of an airplane's wing.) This is great, but, my logic tells me that it must also be as flexible as the traditional. Just pondering!

Elie

Dr. Oud - 8-22-2004 at 09:32 AM

The difference between traditional ladder bracing and fan bracing is that the node points created by the traverse ladder braces are eliminated from the soundboard. The idea is to allow a larger area of the face to vibrate freely and produce an even balance of frequency response. All ouds have favorite frequencies, which are the result of the traverse tone brace locations. The guitar's characteristic tone is due to more complex features including the size and shape of the body, number of strings, string length, etc, than simply the bracing design.
The Kasha design took a different approach, bracing the face and the back to balance response based on acoustic principles, rather than structural, of which fan bracing is still a variable.
Lattice bracing reduces the mass of the face significantly if used with balsa/carbon fiber construction. This lower mass allows longer vibration and more amplitude increasing volume and sustain. It allows the largest area of the face to vibrate freely.
The traditional oud's traverse bracing is effective if the structure is light enough and the locations are correct for the length of the face and volume of the body. The problem is that the range is very narrow, while the more modern bracing methods are more predictable. and consistent.
Increasing tension in the soundboard by using larger guage strings can increase volume, balance volume among the strings but inhibits sustain. Up to a point where the bridge peels off the face.
It's all a balancing act whatever method is applied.
Hey Mike, should this thread be moved to the Advice & Tips forum?

Elie Riachi - 8-22-2004 at 11:29 AM

Hi Doc,

I would like to note that if the shape of the oud varied as much as the guitar shape, the tone qualities would be dependant on that also as well as the number of strings and their tension. You said the same in your post but it may not be readily understood in the first part of your post, however you make that clear in the last part of the post. So, my understanding is: the shape of the oud, size, strings and tension, would affect its tone as well as the bracing but to a lesser extent. Is this correct?

I think this is the best thread so far in discussing bracing. I wish that some other oud makers would share their thoughts with us here. This may be the best way for them to promote their products by illustrating to the oud community their depth of knowledge in making the oud.

I admire Dr. oud for his effort, time and contributions in participating in these forums and his book.

Also, Thank you Mike for providing such informative forums, this is an important and noble contribution. It is one of the few things left which is not driven by "making money."

Last but not least, Jameel. His illustrations and narratives are worth a thousand thanks.

Keep it going....

Elie

Jameel - 8-22-2004 at 02:32 PM

Thanks for the kudos, Elie.:bowdown:

Bracing, this is the most puzzling part of oud building. From what I've read so far, the purpose of the braces is

1. support the soundboard

2. do #1 in such a way as to let the soundboard perform to the best of its ability by arrangement/design of the braces.

I'd like to get pretty basic here and say that perhaps through the centuries oud makers may have tried many different kinds of braces. I don't think that they were intelligent enough to make ouds, but never try any other bracing than traverse. Perhaps the reason most ouds use this bracing is because it works the best. I suppose the oud could be analyzed to the teeth and experimented with to the extent that guitars have, but then we might end up with ouds that sound like a piano. I would have to say that the classical guitar, which is identical to the oud in terms of its most basic form and function sounds more like a piano than an oud. My biggest question is how to build ouds and get consistently good sound. I'm not after the holy grail of oud sound, just a good overall sound. I suppose some of this analysis is moot because most of these questions will answer themselves after many ouds are built, but I would still like to know how to design a bracing pattern from oud to oud regardless of shape or size. In other words, have a general rule for bracing that doesn't follow a specific layout (as, for example, provided in a specific plan). Any ideas?

Jonathan - 8-22-2004 at 04:11 PM

Turunz briefly discusses this in the following link, under the section entitled "A Short Summary of My Acoustical Researches"
http://www.oudmaster.com/characteristic_of_oud.htm

Elie Riachi - 8-22-2004 at 07:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jameel
Thanks for the kudos, Elie.:bowdown:

I would still like to know how to design a bracing pattern from oud to oud regardless of shape or size. In other words, have a general rule for bracing that doesn't follow a specific layout (as, for example, provided in a specific plan). Any ideas?


You are welcome Jameel...

I have the same question and have an idea of where to start the research for an answer... I will start my research by posing a basic question open to all oud lovers, players and makers: What distinguishes the Classical Oud's voice from other musical instruments?

In other words, what are the characteristics of the Classical Oud's sound?

This can be answered scientifically by doing a sound spectral analysis on an oud which every expert agrees that it has the sound of the ideal classical oud. To me this would be the start. I intend to make such a measurement in time, but the hardest factor is having access to such an ideal oud.

Elie

journeyman - 8-23-2004 at 10:19 AM

Hi Eli,
I'm not sure how the top is braced in my Shehata oud. While it is not as loud as some other ouds, it is certainly not a problem for me. It has a nice warm sound with lots of sustain and is pretty even throughout the entire range. I had a cheap tourist oud that was very loud, but the tone above the lower register was like cardboard.

Cheers,
Roy

Jameel - 8-23-2004 at 01:53 PM

I was also thinking recently about the effect of the raqma or pickguard on the sound. There is always the consideration of soundboard thickness, thickness symmetry, grain direction, bookmatching, runout, number of pieces, but little discussion of the effect of the pickguard. There is so much emphasis on how the top vibrates, shouldn't the pickguard material/size be considered? I've noticed many pickguards vary greatly. Most Nahat pickguards I've seen are pretty small. I've seen some that are quite large, extending from the big hole almost all the way to the bridge and halfway to the small holes. This is the most important part of the soundboard in terms of sound production/character and after all the careful bracing and soundboard thicknessing, we slap a piece of hardwood veneer, turtle-shell, or even plastic. I've seen a couple Najarian ouds with large plastic pickguards, plus a clear plactic pickguard that extends beyond that one. This kind of makes all the tedious sounboard analysis a little pointless, imo. Then again, maybe after making a few ouds, I will better understand the whole principle. Just doing some theoretical daydreaming here.....

Elie Riachi - 8-23-2004 at 02:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jameel
I was also thinking recently about the effect of the raqma or pickguard on the sound.


Hi Jameel,
I share your concerns and I am sure the raqma has an effect just like the inlay would. And I wonder if a raqma is needed, at least not the way I play so far. But I think the effects of the raqma may be negligible if its size and thickness are kept to minimum. I have also noticed a minimal amount of inlays in the soundboards of a Nahat, but I haven't seen a lot of Nahats so my statement may not be accurate.

Dr. Oud - 8-23-2004 at 06:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan
Turunz briefly discusses this in the following link, under the section entitled "A Short Summary of My Acoustical Researches"
http://www.oudmaster.com/characteristic_of_oud.htm

Unfortunately, Turunz only discuss his theory for the "tuning" of braces, but doesn't mention anything about location. The location of the braces is the most critical thing and is related to the length & width of the face & the volume of the back, (according to Arafati). He's developed a formula for the size & location of the tone braces based on analysis of over 150 ouds he and his Father in law made and or repaired. He has intended to publish this in a book when he retires, but he's not giving it up just yet. He has mentioned in a recent letter that he has an apprentice, so hopefully his knowledge will be passed down. Maybe what we need to do is for everyone with a really good oud to measure the body, face and location of the braces & bridge (if they can get inside). The data could be correlated and analized to find location patterns and/or ratios common among good ouds. Otherwise, it's build it as thin as you dare, string it up and pray for tone!

Money? What money? Where's the money?!?

mavrothis - 8-23-2004 at 09:48 PM

Hi,

This is a pretty cool discussion. All I have to say is that I've played a lot of nice ouds with large pickguards and great tone/projection, so I don't think it's that great of a concern. My Najarian has an extended thin plastic guard under the large rosette and on one corner, and it is only improving in tone as time goes on. I think lots of old Karibyan ouds had big pickguards too.

About Turunz, I think he mentions something about bracing position from his speech at the Thessaloniki oud meeting, something about 'nodes' (I'm not a big math person).

Anyway, I feel that the best ouds I've played or heard in person were either made by one of the old master makers, by their students (like Farouk Shehata or Fathi Amin), or were well-made copies of ouds made by the old masters. Pickguards didn't seem to be an issue. You could test that though, simply by finding a decent oud and removing the pickguard and comparing the tones. (Please record before and after if anyone does this, it would be cool if it did make a difference.)

Take care,

mav

Elie Riachi - 8-24-2004 at 05:10 PM

Hi Doc.,

I guess one way to learn the secrets is to become an apprentice!

Elie