Mike's Oud Forums

Live Sound

mavrothis - 8-27-2004 at 09:49 AM

Hi guys,

I've been experimenting with various things for live sound, from the electric ud to using pick ups and mics.

My latest attempt with a nice condensor mic did not work very well, too much feedback, not enough power. But, I'm now looking at an internal pickup by K&K (Pure Classic w/ 4 transducers) in combination with an external preamp by Fishman. I'll have to have them installed in the ouds, but I feel it's the best option for me right now.

I'll let you know how they turn out, it should be taken care of within the next 2 weeks. My friend will install one into my Najarian, and maybe one into my Dimitris Nahat copy, we'll see.

Take care,

mav

K&K

Live Recording

Feynfou - 9-27-2004 at 01:56 AM

Hello Mav,

I'm replying to this message by a question...
I'm also interested in recording my playing. I'm new in this wounderfull world of OUD, but i do try to make some Takassim...
I tried windows recorder, but the record time doesn't exceed 69 seconds.

Are there any softwares that allow longer recordings?

Regards,
and love for the OUD.:airguitar:

Walidk - 9-27-2004 at 08:55 AM

I use a free software called Audacity to record on computer and convert to mp3.
It's not professional by any means but it does the job for me.

You would need a microphone attached to you computer just like Windows player.
It allows to record much more than 69 seconds..
Look it up on the internet. If you have problems, let me know.

Walid.

Hello Feynfou

sydney - 9-27-2004 at 01:50 PM

:wavey:

A good software to record your taqasim:

Try http://oudpage.tripod.com/

and look on the green list for Rec your oud. there are two programs for you to use Goldwave and n-Track

Good Luck

Emad from sydney

Elie Riachi - 9-27-2004 at 02:51 PM

Hi Mav,

I think the best amplified oud sound is by using mics. Did you try directional mics? To cut down on feedback, try installing the mic in a cone where the outside of the cone is lined up with thick foam (I know not very cool looking.)

Elie

Trick Windows Sound Recorder

Greg - 9-28-2004 at 12:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Feynfou
I tried windows recorder, but the record time doesn't exceed 69 seconds.

Feynfou,

You can use Windows Recorder to record longer than 60 seconds by using the following trick.

1/ Record 60 seconds of nothing.
2/ When it stops at the 60 second mark, invoke Edit/Copy.
3/ Then Edit/Paste Insert (now you have 120 seconds.)
4/ Each time you invoke Edit/Paste Insert you add another 60 seconds.
5/ When it has sufficient length for your purposes, take the slider back to 0:00 seconds and begin recording your taqsim. (it will continue recording for the new duration)

To further refine this method, you can actually save off the original recording of nothing (say 4 minutes) and load it up each time you want to record another taqsim.

Regards,

Greg

mavrothis - 9-28-2004 at 10:53 AM

Hey,

I've installed the K&K pickups in two of my ouds. They sound pretty good with a preamp. Mics are always best, but not ideal in every situation.

We've had some real nice dialogue on live sound at my forum - Oud Cafe Forum

For live recording, lots of people recommend just buying a CD burner and hooking it up to the console/amp you are using and simply record while you play. That's up to 80 min of recording time.

:)

mav

k&k sound

mercm525i - 10-1-2004 at 12:16 PM

hey i have the k&k sound system on my oud. It's the twin spot classic with the pure preamp. it souds very rich and deep and there are no problems with reverb. Order from the factory website, its cheaper. They have a sound sample online of the oud and it sounds very real for my oud. I highly recommend it. Battery life is 250hours on the preamp, which uses a 9V battery. You want to search with your fingers where the most vibration is coming from and that is where to put the transducers, one on the left and one on the right...good luck

mavrothis - 10-3-2004 at 02:51 AM

Hi,

The pickup I used by K&K actually has 4 transducers, it's the Pure Classic version. It sounds pretty good, and should work fine for the smaller venues I'll be playing in (hopefully more and more ;) ).

I think sometime I'd like to try the AKG C411 also, it seems to have a great reputation.

Take care,

mav

Multi Kulti - 10-4-2004 at 02:38 PM

Hi everybody..

Mav you made the best decision to buy the Pro-eq platinum from Fishman.Its the best preamp and can be combined with the AKG-C411. I use this setup 2-3 years now and i am very pleased with the sound i get...

Try it out...

Ta leme

Nikos

mavrothis - 10-5-2004 at 05:47 AM

Geia sou megale,

Could you tell us what setup you use with the phantom power requirements of the AKG through the preamp?

Do you have a pa mixer, or do you use a phantom power unit.

Na'sai kala,

mav

Multi Kulti - 10-5-2004 at 07:24 AM

So i use the AKG-C411 the older series(not with the XLR output) .That has a small volume preamp which is necessary.Then i connect it to Pro-Eq Platinum from Fishman and then to the main-mixer or if you want to a personal amp-monitor.

If you want more power you could buy 2 C411's and connect them to the same volume preamp from Akg (it has 2 parallel inputs) and then to the Pro-eq.The 2 mics you should put them at the 2 edges of the bridge or on the bridge.So you have a balanced bass and treble sound and you can adjust the volume separately.

Ufff ta katafera

Nikos

mavrothis - 10-5-2004 at 07:34 AM

Euxaristw!

mav

love sound

wfspark - 10-12-2004 at 05:38 AM

Hey guys. For my setup, I have the Dean Markly sweetspot pickup that is attached to the edge of the bridge of my oud. It is then connected to an ampeg V4 bass amp from the 70's. The amp is powerfull enough to pick up the sound, and I have the EQ set so I get pretty much the same sound as the old oud recordings of the 70's and earlier. Let me know what you guys think.

William F. Sparks

oudplayer - 10-12-2004 at 02:14 PM

hey all
umm what do you thin the best cheapest way to amplafiy my oud i have a like a cheap turkish oud but i wanna plug it in and wanna spend alot of money and what the easyest one to install or just to put on
thx
sammy

mavrothis - 10-13-2004 at 10:59 AM

Hey,

For a cheap and reasonably good sound, use the K&K twin spot. It works great.

Take care,

mav

THANKS

Feynfou - 10-18-2004 at 12:41 AM

Hello friends,

I just want to thank every one who took time to answer my (old) question about recording my playing.

I used the one with copy paste from Greg. thanks man.

This helped me a lot. I now know how my playing sounds...I gotta to practice
Kepp it up friends:wavey::airguitar:

hama - 4-29-2010 at 02:01 AM

Hi all
has any body uses C411 L AKg on ouds

http://www.dv247.com/microphones/akg-c-411-l-acoustic-pick-up-minia...

is it any good, does it need an adaptor ? any feed back on the sound quality ?
does it need to be connect to MPa III L Micro Mic phantom adaptor ??

http://www.dv247.com/microphones/akg-mpa-iii-l--28052
or the C411 L can be connected directly to the pre amp without an adaptor?



Luttgutt - 4-29-2010 at 03:23 AM

Hi Hama!

I used it until 2003 if I still remember well. I still have it but don't use anymore. Now using Shadow for oud.

At the time, both I and my sound man, were impressed by the "quality" of the sound. But not as much by the "strenght" (volume).
It was too week to play in a normal jazz setting (piano, base, sax, guitar, drums...).

But if you are not to compeet with such instruments, the sound is good, well balanced, and good possibilities for adjustments.

fernandraynaud - 4-29-2010 at 04:05 AM

When you say too weak, you mean that if you turned the amp up enough to play with piano, bass, etc, you would be ruined by feedback?

The shadow mounts in the string loops? Which model do you like best?

hama - 4-29-2010 at 06:51 AM

thanks luttgutt, just found out they have C411 Pp aswell which can be connected directly to the mixer without adaptor , do you know much about that one?

Luttgutt - 4-30-2010 at 05:20 AM

You are welcome Hama!

But I have no idea what the defference is between C411 pp
and C411 L.

I am not even sure wich one I have! I'll check when I get home...

hama - 4-30-2010 at 06:03 AM

C411L needs Phantom power adaptor,
C411pp connects direct to XLR connector on the Mixer ( i think) takes power direct from the mixer which is good for my purpose

Luttgutt - 4-30-2010 at 06:12 AM

You mean that C411 pp does not need a battery?

hama - 4-30-2010 at 11:56 AM

correct

Aymara - 4-30-2010 at 11:53 PM

Hi everybody,

in my opinion the AKG C411 regarding the specs has a too high bass resonse and will need a lot of equalization to produce a natural oud sound:



May I invite you to my homerecording thread, where we also discuss microphone choices for recording and stage?

Maybe you'll find new inspirations ;)

PS: You might also find THIS discussion in a different forum useful.

Sazi - 5-1-2010 at 01:20 AM

But then again, if you have say, a floating bridge oud that has great tops but is a bit light on in the bass department, as some of them can be, then this AKG C411 would balance the sound out quite nicely...

Aymara - 5-1-2010 at 02:12 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Sazi  
..., then this AKG C411 would balance the sound out quite nicely...


At the deep C of the oud at 65,4 Hz the C411 boosts the bass by +10dB, which is pretty much, so I would expect the relation between bass, mids and trebbles quite unbalanced even on a floating bridge oud. On the other hand this might be compensated by the placement position on the soundboard.

So far for the theory ;)

Experience is a different medal ... the question is, do those people who have experience with this AKG compared it to good stage mics?

Don't misunderstand what I said ... I don't wanted to say, that the AKG is a bad choice ... I just wanted to throw in some thoughts about possible alternatives to optimize sound quality.

Brian Prunka - 5-1-2010 at 12:18 PM

I have an AKG C411, and used it on some gigs. it works okay, but IMO didn't sound great, a little better than a pickup maybe.
I compared it to an very inexpensive MXL pencil condenser, and it was no contest, the MXL was far superior.
It's not a bad choice, you can attach it to an oud without modification, sounds pretty decent.
On the other hand, if you have phantom power, why not just get a good microphone?

Aymara - 5-1-2010 at 01:11 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  

On the other hand, if you have phantom power, why not just get a good microphone?


Most people seem to be worried about feedback problems. But I think as far as one's not sitting to near to a monitor speaker or another loud instrument like percussion is nearby, an experienced sound engineer should be able to handle a good mic.

And even when phantom power is missing ... some good mics like the Rode M3 can use a battery ... and a decent preamp isn't too expensive.

fernandraynaud - 5-1-2010 at 01:24 PM

Some ouds have a very live soundboard, you can feel it WOW, its not even related to timbre or volume in obvious ways, and those ouds will have more tendency to feed back.

There is a major peak around 200 hz (G#) on most ouds, and that needs notching.

Aymara - 5-1-2010 at 01:29 PM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  
There is a major peak around 200 hz (G#) on most ouds, and that needs notching.


No problem for an experienced sound engineer, don't you think so?

Luttgutt - 5-1-2010 at 01:32 PM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  
Some ouds have a very live soundboard, you can feel it WOW, its not even related to timbre or volume in obvious ways, and those ouds will have more tendency to feed back.

There is a major peak around 200 hz (G#) on most ouds, and that needs notching.



Totally true :)

And Aymara, good sound engeneers don't grow on trees. It is too much "risk" to "build your world" assuming that the next sound man you encounter is good enough!

But that is said, good sound system and engineer does not help at all when you play with drums, el guitar, base, trompet, sax, synt! The oud WILL feed or NOT get heard!

Again, when you play for 5000 people, just forget usual microphones!

So it all depends on your needs


Aymara - 5-1-2010 at 01:39 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Luttgutt  
... when you play with drums, el guitar, base, trompet, sax, synt! The oud WILL feed or NOT get heard!


Ok, in this case a pickup seems the only way.

fernandraynaud - 5-1-2010 at 03:32 PM

A pickup, yes, and it sounds like stuffing the oud full of socks is necessary too. Black socks work better than red and white striped ones. That adorable flatback $150 oud from The King would probably be a great building block if you don't like the toilet seat look.

Sazi - 5-1-2010 at 03:46 PM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  
...Black socks work better than red and white striped ones. .

:D

Some really good comments here, (serious as well as humorous)

I agree with Brian as far as the sound goes, these mics seem to work better for things like violin. After all, it's still just the sound of the wood, not the air moving, and anything on the soundboard that doesn't need to be there shouldn't, though as I said Chris, it did balance out one of my ouds nicely, and I was able to play with about 1/2 dozen Daf players, (try it sometime, those chains can be LOUD!) two darbukas and two tonbaks all going off, and still be heard clean and clear with no feedback problems.

Aymara - 5-2-2010 at 12:06 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Sazi  
... play with about 1/2 dozen Daf players, (try it sometime, those chains can be LOUD!) ...


Yes, I know ... I bought a Tar last week and also tried a Daf. How powerful a Daf can be, can be seen HERE ... great performance in that video btw.

I think, the main problem is, what Luttgut reported, that you might be confronted with a sound engineer, that should be better called a sound tinkerer ;)

Last weekend I have been at a medieval market and there I saw/heared such a disaster ... 3 female and one male singer with Davul drums and a lute ... the mic of the male vocals was too bassy and the lute can't be heard at all, though it had a pickup.
The sound engineer was totally overextended.

mavrothis - 5-2-2010 at 07:05 PM

I use this for concert situations - if you have a good instrument, it simply amplifies the actual sound very clearly and beautifully. I place the mic attachment to my oud's bridge and pair it with a Presonus Tube Preamp.

DPA Miniature Microphone

I highly recommend it.

This works more accurately than anything else I've tried, though not the best for extremely high volume situations.

If you are playing with a very loud band without a dedicated sound engineer, then I recommend the K&K Twin Spot Internal paired with one (or even two) preamps. Of course, at super high volumes, the oud might not sound like an oud anymore depending on your PA system and preamp quality...but the K&K pickups when placed well do sound very natural at low to medium-high volume settings.


Take care,

mavrothi

Aymara - 5-2-2010 at 11:45 PM

Hi Mav!
Quote: Originally posted by mavrothis  
I highly recommend it.


No wonder ... the specs are stunning (totally linear over the oud's complete frequency range) and DPA mics have a very good reputation.

The downside is the price ... around 400 Euros only for the DPA. And the Presonus Tube preamp costs a further 100 Euros.

On the other hand, the DPA is that good as it seems, that it could also be used for recording. But for recording the Presonus isn't the best choice. But who cares ... even my Tascam US-122 for just 140 Euros would do a good job here. It might also work on stage, because it has line out ... but you'll need a USB power connector.

So overall the DPA seems to be a very good tip!

mavrothis - 5-3-2010 at 12:37 AM

Hi Aymara,

Yes, the price is pretty high for the DPA, no denying that. But the sound is really something. When I place the mic on my bridge, the sound that I hear is exactly the sound that comes from my oud acoustically!

The two channel Presonus is just a more affordable option with a pretty decent (warm) sound b/c of the tube option. Compared to the crazy boutique and generally high end preamps out there (The 2 channel Grace Design preamp is over $1500! - the single channel is around $600 - Grace Designs) the Presonus is a good deal for the price for good live sound. I usually sing while performing, so a 2 channel mic preamp is the best option for me.

The DPA's are used in the theatre, and take pretty much anything, even water! The actors often have them actually taped to their faces and then covered in makeup. This I've heard from a company that supplies theater/broadway troupes. Anyway, that just tells you it's a sturdy mic, even though it is very tiny.

If you are serious about having a really true sound in live situations and in the studio too, the DPA is a wonderful though admittedly pricey option. However, if you compare the price to a quality vocal mic, like a Neumann KMS 105, the price is pretty reasonable.

Take care,

mavrothi

Aymara - 5-3-2010 at 01:11 AM

Hi again!
Quote: Originally posted by mavrothis  
When I place the mic on my bridge, the sound that I hear is exactly the sound that comes from my oud acoustically!


That's what I expected from the specs and the reputation of this manufacturer.
Quote:
The two channel Presonus is just a more affordable option ....


... which I expect to be pretty good on stage, but a bit too noisy for serious recording.
Quote:
The 2 channel Grace Design preamp is over $1500! - the single channel is around $600 ...


Yes, high-end preamps are pretty expensive as microphones too.
Quote:
Anyway, that just tells you it's a sturdy mic, even though it is very tiny.


Very interesting story.
Quote:
However, if you compare the price to a quality vocal mic, ...


I dicided for a AKG C3000B just for recording purposes and am very happy with it ... it's hard to beat for a price of 190 Euros ... a better one like yours costs about the double.

But because it's a large diaphragm condenser, it is not the perfect choice for stage, if there are other loud instruments or monitor speakers nearby.

So I think your tip is absolutely great for those people seeking the best possible sound on stage.

fernandraynaud - 5-3-2010 at 04:16 AM

Without starting an argument, I rather think most systems are assembled out of very inexpensive parts. Leaving aside the ones that use a known commercial microphone, the good ones don't really cost more to make than the bad ones. So let's try to made our own based on the cumulative experience of our members

As for best overall placement of a sensor, Luttgutt was saying he was down to the "under the string loops", like using the Shadow one. That's the same sense I get from the "mic attached to stick under the string loops", as well as that strange reverb box that has a pickup version.

It makes sense to NOT attach to the soundboard because of feedback, and after all the bridge is the first element the strings excite. On guitars the "under the saddle" position is excellent, which on the oud, if we're not drilling or otherwise modifying the bridge, translates to "under the string loops".

I'm looking for a way to design this general purpose pickup-with-preamp that will (also) work for loud venues and that we can have for under $100, and I have a wide choice of sensors and parts to work with, including ones that can be slipped under the strings. Can anyone else confirm that "under the string loops" is working very well (best) for them?

mavrothis - 5-3-2010 at 06:13 AM

Sometimes internal pickups directly under the bridge can sound boomy. It really depends on the oud, and so you need to check if the under the bridge is best, or perhaps slightly behind it or to the side.

It would be great to have a good live sound option at an affordable price - that is why I like the K&K brand, though I'm not crazy about their preamps.

Take care,

mavrothi

fernandraynaud - 5-3-2010 at 07:07 AM

No, no I meant ON the bridge. I would expect under the bridge to be boomy and feedback-prone. Next to the bridge is unpredictable. The soundboard's vibration is how feedback occurs. Adhesives are always uncertain, and moving even a millimeter changes everything.

The Shadow pickup that I think Luttgutt likes best goes under the string loops, sitting on top of the bridge. Drilling/slitting into the bridge would probably work well, but I wouldn't want to drill mine, and we'd need a very thin sensor. So the string loop trick is probably best.

http://www.shadow-electronics.com/showpic.html?id=245&nr=2&...

The next question is whether people are willing to drill into the end plate to mount an end-pin jack?

http://www.tapastring.com/vintagejack%20special%20orders.htm


Aymara - 5-3-2010 at 09:05 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  

The next question is whether people are willing to drill into the end plate to mount an end-pin jack?


A further problem is, that some ouds like mine don't have an end plate. I would expect, that on such ouds mounting an end-pin jack isn't advisable. But it should be possible to mount an endplate ;)

fernandraynaud - 5-3-2010 at 01:46 PM

I meant the internal wood end plate. I would imagine that for loud amplified playing you w'oudn't want to use the same oud that has the best acoustic sound, so maybe drilling into the end-cap on one's worst sounding oud would be OK. Personally I'm going to wait, but if I find a great pickup combo that can be mounted inside .... there's an oud in the corner of my office that lives in fear of sharp objects! I think that as soon as I fix it up enough to play it, it's going to do everything to "open up" and please me so I don't "open up" it's butt plate with a reamer ;-). There's an Adani that did just that, and is enjoying a new life, being taken out, being called "baby", etc.

You don't even need to attach a fish pump, or stick them in the fish tank and shout "information!", all you have to do is scare 'em a little! I know it's harsh, but it's for their own good. Try talking about the cold weather this year, and the winter of 1809, when the custodians at the Paris conservatory used over a hundred "obsolete" historical priceless harpsichords for firewood. Hire an old grizzled lute whisperer to tell that story and watch even the most stubborn instruments come alive. The only one it hasn't worked on around here is an old battle-scarred Martin D-45, because it's deaf as a fence post, and stupid to boot.