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RAST/GEORGE ABYAD

David.B - 8-24-2011 at 02:45 AM

http://www.mikeouds.com/audio/real/george_abyad_rast.rm

At last, I'm able to play the whole track. Now I'd like to analyze it with your help :

00:00 I guess this is a Samai in maqam Suznak. I don't know the composer and of course this is an extract from the whole piece. Does anyone know the composer, have the score or the interpretation of a musician?

00:22 Glissando Bb -> B, Bb as a dint to B (Hijaz tetrachord on G). See Arab Music Theory in the Modern Period (AMTMP) page 621.

00:24 Glissando G -> F, on the 3rd course.

This extract and the whole taqsim confirm the example p. 580 (AMTMP) : maqam Suznak does not duplicate in the lower octave. It uses GG AA BB-b- C, in other words the lower notes of Rast.

David.B - 8-24-2011 at 04:31 AM

00:00 This is Samaee Rast by Mohamed Abdel Karim. I can see/hear differences between George's track and the score. I'll study it next...

A huge :applause:

and

to Husain Sabsaby, and if you don't mind I put the score here. Also, it's an extract from : "Composition by famous oud players of the modern age, Silh al wadi institute" by Husain Sabsaby.

David.B - 8-24-2011 at 04:55 AM

بحري التركماني بزق bahri altorkmani آلة البزق + بزق -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUf390VQlhI

David.B - 8-25-2011 at 01:45 AM

Is it me, or the staff notation? I don't understand why it is written 4 above the G clef. 5 should be written instead of 4 and 7 instead of 5, am I right? If I am, what GA (George Abyad) plays is written between the 5th and 8th measure, twice. The 6th measure starts on F and GA starts on E-b- with the same pattern. GA's version is also different at the 8th measure. In both case GA exclude the note A (natural). So, I think it is voluntary in order to keep the Hijaz tetrachord on G.

myeyes2020 - 8-25-2011 at 10:04 AM

It's interesting that the samai is called "samai rast" while the taslim is in susnack. The variation in GA's rendition may be his style of ornamenting the taslim. How the heck did you find the score to this....lol I like how he modutates to Bayati G at 5:20 (I'd have to play this on my oud to make sure as I can't always identify these by ear). This would make the maqam Nairuz at this point (Rast DO + Bayati Sol).

You may be interested in the Egyptian son Ghanili shwaya swhaya (sing to me slowly) in maqam suznak that modulates to bayaty sol (Nairuz?) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZI2-jbxbVs&feature=related

thanks for the education.

David.B - 8-25-2011 at 12:56 PM

Great minds think alike! I was trying to send to you a message while you were writing here ... (bad connection with the airport).

Quote: Originally posted by myeyes2020

It's interesting that the samai is called "samai rast" while the taslim is in susnack.

I see what you mean, the modulation is supposed to happen in the 2nd khana... only?

Samai is Turkish, so I think we must consider the seyr -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=XqZE_O3ww20

Hijaz tetrachord on G is common in Rast maqam. So seyr ... modulation ... ? Also the score comes back quickly on A natural.

Quote: Originally posted by myeyes2020

The variation in GA's rendition may be his style of ornamenting the taslim.

I don't feel it like ornamentation. This is something deeper, it's not a coincidence if it happens at each time a A natural appears.

Quote: Originally posted by myeyes2020

How the heck did you find the score to this....lol

Finally, a few contacts on facebook is not so useless

Quote: Originally posted by myeyes2020

I like how he modutates to Bayati G at 5:20 (I'd have to play this on my oud to make sure as I can't always identify these by ear). This would make the maqam Nairuz at this point (Rast DO + Bayati Sol).

I don't want to jump directly at 05:20, but I confirm the presence of maqam Nairuz (I write Nirz). I like this modulation, it comes with a soft attack and contrasts a lot with the precedent part.

Quote: Originally posted by myeyes2020

You may be interested in the Egyptian son Ghanili shwaya swhaya (sing to me slowly) in maqam suznak that modulates to bayaty sol (Nairuz?) [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZI2-jbxbVs&feature=related

[/url]

Off course, one of my first song on oud

And education will come from our discussions. I hope for different points of view, it will be less rigid than my analyze of Shadd 'Araban in one block.

Jono Oud N.Z - 8-26-2011 at 05:42 PM

Hi.
Cool, the score appears!
I will learn this piece.
It is in maqam Rast, but 'borrows' from Suznak for 'added flavor'.
The A natural usually replaces the Ab.
The second Khana modulation appears to be Nawa Athar (I wonder in there was an Eb instead of an Ed in the first half of the second bar here originally?)
Often, with older compositions the score came after the recording..
In maqam Panjgah, the lower jins is Nishabour (E, F#, G, A), the E replaces the Ed in this context.
Panjgah is a compound of Rast and Nishabour.
('Music of the Ottoman Court', W. Feldman).

Because both Rast and Bayati feature jins Hijaz on G so commonly, they probably are quite liberal with this modulation.
'Tahmilla Rast' by Mohammed Qassabji...

(http://www.mikeouds.com/qassab.html)

...features this Suznak focus also and Simon Shaheen renamed the piece 'Tahmilla Suznak'.
Also the Ab of jins Hijaz on G (in Bayati) used to be called 'Bayati', and this movement was inbuilt in the early Bayati repertoire. ('Music of the Ottoman Court').
Ushshaq was the main maqam in the Bayati family originally.
('A History of Arabian Music to the Thirteenth Century' by Henry George Farmer).

Jamil Bashir's 'Samai Rast' also has a modulation in the Taslim and other parts of his piece that is very prominent.
He actually ends the Taslim with Nawa Athar. ('Jamil Bashir's oud method, vol 1').
This compound maqam is referred to as maqam 'Hayyan' in 'The Music of the Arabs' (Habib Hassan Touma).

The stops on F (below jins Hijaz on G) represent a suspended cadence and is jins Nakriz on F.

The Bb to B motive used to be played Bb to Bd (Awj) in the old intonation, this occurs in current Turkish music and hints at maqam Awj.

'Nairuz' was originally a 'maqam' that was only a pentachord to start with (D, Ed, F, G or G, Ad, B, C), this later evolved into a full maqam, later called maqam Ushshaq.
The 'Zebek' article explains this.
Here is an old anonymous piece in Nairuz too.
Maqam Nairuz itself is jins Nairuz above jins Rast, although I have never seen a composition actually composed in the maqam itself.
It is a very common modulation though and can often lead on to Saba on G afterwards.

Attachment: Zebek and History of Makam Structures.pdf (236kB)
This file has been downloaded 349 times

David.B - 8-27-2011 at 02:49 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Jono Oud N.Z

The second Khana modulation appears to be Nawa Athar (I wonder in there was an Eb instead of an Ed in the first half of the second bar here originally?)
Often, with older compositions the score came after the recording.

And what about Hijazayn, since the finalis of the modulation is D? Also I understand what you mean about the shrunken augmented second. In this case Ab might be a little higher (but not necessarily) ... But more important, this Samai has been written by Mohammed Abdul Kareem for bouzouki :

"Husain Sabsaby was born in Syria. His father gave him his first music lesson at the age of six. He would enroll in the Arabic Institute of Music in Halab, and then continue his musical journey being tutored by Mr. Mohammed Abdul Kareem, "Prince of Bouzouki"." (source -> http://www.arabicouds.com/links.html)

Does bouzouki allow the concept of shrunken augmented seconds?

Quote: Originally posted by Jono Oud N.Z

In maqam Panjgah, the lower jins is Nishabour (E, F#, G, A), the E replaces the Ed in this context.
Panjgah is a compound of Rast and Nishabour.
('Music of the Ottoman Court', W. Feldman).

Do you mean Rast on G as the higher jins (G A B-b- c) and Nishabour as the lower (E F# G A)? I'm a bit confused.

Brian Prunka - 8-27-2011 at 01:34 PM

it's not bouzouki, but buzuq (or buzuk or buzouk etc.), which has tied frets like a saz or tar . . . i.e., you can have frets for any notes you want. It's not uncommon to add extra frets to accommodate the small A2 in hijaz.

Jono Oud N.Z - 8-27-2011 at 02:07 PM

Hi.
Good point about the fretting of the buzuq.
It is possible to adjust the moveable frets to play these non equal tempered intervals.
I would be surprised if Syrian musicians play 'piano' Hijaz, as many reject the 24 quarter tone system.
Most Syrian musicians play Hijaz the old way.
Omar Naqichbendi and Al Kindi Ensemble, etc, play like this for example.

I am not sure about Hijazayn, but will investigate..

Concerning maqam Panjgah:

'Cantemir considered the makam Pencgah to be a compound of Nisabur and Rast:
'This makam is produced by three secondary scale degrees and one basic scale degree. The secondary scale degrees are acem, uzzal (hijaz), buselik. The basic scale degree is rast'.(Music of the Ottoman Court.)

When the F# appears, the Enatural replaces the Ed in maqam Panjgah. The upper part of Nishabour is usually G, A and Bb. So, the basic sayr of Nishabour is: G, A, Bb, A, G, F#, E. This is blended with maqam Rast in Panjgah. In the final descent the F replaces the F# and the Ed, the Enatural; concluding with maqam Rast.

Here is a classic piece that illustrates this.
Panjgah is also a useful link between Rast and Nakriz as also shown in the composition.

Nawa Athar seems more likely in the Samai though.
Also, thanks for the sheet again!
I will learn this piece.

I had trouble removing italics, so I added bold too, LOL

Attachment: pencgah_saz_semaisi_i.pdf (48kB)
This file has been downloaded 212 times

David.B - 8-27-2011 at 03:25 PM

Really interesting, I've just sent a message to Husain Sabsaby, wait and see...

No problem with bold, but let's have some color too

Jono Oud N.Z - 8-27-2011 at 04:50 PM

Cool!!
Good idea
I am interested too...

David.B - 8-28-2011 at 01:56 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Jono Oud N.Z

The stops on F (below jins Hijaz on G) represent a suspended cadence and is jins Nakriz on F.

The Bb to B motive used to be played Bb to Bd (Awj) in the old intonation, this occurs in current Turkish music and hints at maqam Awj.

OK, now I understand the glissando-s. Also I "feel" it like that : F <- -> B (which is supposed to be Awj in the old intonation), while I "feel" -> G C <- at 00:54. I don't know if there's something interesting to grab here :shrug:

Quote: Originally posted by Jono Oud N.Z

Maqam Nairuz itself is jins Nairuz above jins Rast, although I have never seen a composition actually composed in the maqam itself.
It is a very common modulation though and can often lead on to Saba on G afterwards.

Yes, I think this is what happens at 05:27, the note cb is introduced, even if c is not totally excluded.

I have to read the 'Zebek' article ... It's amazing how a makam can drift, it's impossible to understand in term of Arabic scale!

Jono Oud N.Z - 8-28-2011 at 02:53 AM

I had often heard these Nakriz sounds in many maqamat, and other 'secondary' jins too, but didn't know how to think of them.
The 'Makam Guide' by Murat Aydemir was the one who termed these temporary stops 'suspended cadences'.
This was very helpful for me too.

Even in D'Erlangers work, it seems that a maqam was explained more precisely, where as these days only the two basic jins are mentioned or even worse, as you said; the scale concept.
The scale is good as a skeleton, but that's all, it doesn't show the sayr or these temporary jins either.

Sayr does not have to be complex at all, it seems that each maqam has a basic 'inbuilt melody', and every piece in this maqam is like a 'variation on the core melody'.

I found the Zebek article very interesting; the evolution of the maqam.

David.B - 8-29-2011 at 10:54 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Jono Oud N.Z

The 'Makam Guide' by Murat Aydemir was the one who termed these temporary stops 'suspended cadences'.

I read this term 'suspended cadences' a few days ago but impossible to get hold on it. The books by Touma and Lloyd were open at that time ...

Quote: Originally posted by David.B

00:56 Trill G -> Ab, so the Ab sketched at 00:54 is more important and l'd like to call it a dunt (AMTMP p.618), but it's not used as a precadential accidental.

I would say it's a touch of Suznak ...

01:03 Qarar F (FF) : Jaharkah

01:20 Qarar C (CC) : Rast

01:28 Trill G -> A-b- -> G ... Touch of Nirz

01:35 Qarar F (FF) : Jaharkah

01:50 Qarar C (CC) : Rast

Note : many pivot-notes. I'm a bit lazy and qarar shows two of them.

02:00 Little glissando E-b- (Rast) -> E-b- (Bayyati) what do you think about these two E-b-?

02:01 Qarar D (DD) : Bayyati what do you think about this modulation, Rast -> Bayyati?

02:05 Glissando F -> Gb -> F ... Touch of Saba

Jono Oud N.Z - 8-29-2011 at 02:36 PM

I had a listen..
Very interesting glissando! (Ed)
I had not noticed this before.

I have read that modulating from C maqamat to D maqamat and similar modulations is not generally accepted.
But...
Then, after learning pieces in maqam Ushshaq, I found that there is a b7 Rast jins emphasized underneath the Ushshaq jins.
In Turkish music this emphasis separates Ushshaq from maqam Bayati, also Ushshaq descends to a lower Rast on G below the tonic too.

I started to notice suspended cadences on D in many Rast pieces and taqasim, this is the reverse of what happens in maqam Ushshaq.

Later I learned a maqam called Rast Kardani (Gerdâniye in Turkish).
This maqam begins with Rast on Kardan (high C) and cleverly descends to Ushshaq, using G as the pivot note and connecting point between the two maqamat.

So, it seems that a full modulation between C and D maqamat, etc is not common, but these do seen to represent temporary stopping points or suspended cadences.
Not dissimilar to a C, Dm, C chord change in Western music.

Rast Kardani being an exception.
This maqam shows that these modulations are possible if they are achieved smoothly though.

David.B - 8-30-2011 at 10:06 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Jono Oud N.Z

I have read that modulating from C maqamat to D maqamat and similar modulations is not generally accepted.

I've read the same thing. On the same CD you have a modulation from Nakriz to Hijaz: track 7 at 00:31. But I read in AMTMP that Hijaz is so strong in Nakriz and / or Nawa Athar that one can quickly module to Hijaz.

Quote: Originally posted by Jono Oud N.Z

Then, after learning pieces in maqam Ushshaq, I found that there is a b7 Rast jins emphasized underneath the Ushshaq jins.
In Turkish music this emphasis separates Ushshaq from maqam Bayati, also Ushshaq descends to a lower Rast on G below the tonic too.

Do you think that is the case here? I do not feel a lower Rast on GG... And what about Gb? Is it usual to use this note in Ushshaq? I'm not sure, but I think Bayyati is unfolding from A to the note C at 02:10 and we are back on Rast at this moment. So it's about 10 seconds of Bayyati.

Quote: Originally posted by Jono Oud N.Z

So, it seems that a full modulation between C and D maqamat, etc is not common, but these do seen to represent temporary stopping points or suspended cadences.

I feel it like that at 02:45, a suspended cadence on D (you have a qarar too), what do you think? These concepts of suspended cadences and pivot-notes are brand new for me, I used to focus on notes out of the scale.

Jono Oud N.Z - 8-30-2011 at 01:42 PM

The Nakriz sound in Hijaz is the b7 'chord' beneath the tonic.
The Hijaz jins a tone above the tonic in Nakriz is the equivalent in reverse.
I have never actually heard a full modulation between these though (e.g: a piece or taqsim in Nakriz linking to one in Hijaz), where as the shift from Rast to Ushshaq and Bayati does occur sometimes.
The differences between Ushshaq and Bayati are explained here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBOizia1tZg

Traditionally, maqam Bayati does not have a focus on the Rast jins on b7 (C) under the tonic, but this is very common to Ushshaq.
This would make the transition to Ushshaq more likely traditionally. The lower Rast on G jins is not always present.
In Bayati, the main sayr is; G, F Ed, D (descending).
Here are two pieces that illustrate the differences.
Often Syrian and Egyptian (etc) musicians play Bayati-Ushshaq as one maqam these days (Bayati).
Older Arab archive recordings reveal the differences though.
In Turkish music the separation is more pronounced.

The Gb is a taste of Saba off Ushshaq / Bayati

Attachment: Beyati Saz Semaisi G.Baktagir.pdf (97kB)
This file has been downloaded 229 times

Attachment: ussak_ss_neyzen_aziz_dede_ney.pdf (38kB)
This file has been downloaded 266 times

Jono Oud N.Z - 8-30-2011 at 07:55 PM

Quote:

And what about Hijazayn, since the finalis of the modulation is D

I am just looking into maqam Hijazayn.
This maqam was created by the famous Ottoman Sultan composer Selim III (1761-1808).
'Hijazayn' means 'double Hijaz.'

http://www.donjuanarchiv.at/veranstaltungen/symposia/symposia-2008/...

This maqam begins with Hijaz and ends on Hijaz on Usharyan (low A).
Interesting maqam... :cool:

David.B - 9-3-2011 at 04:46 AM

I've just skimmed the 'Zebek' article.

Introduction comes into resonance with the article below, which expresses the use of usul and four or five modes with Pythagorean intervals into the learning method. Unhappily still only in French. If someone is brave enough to type it and translate with google for example ...

Development comes into resonance with the way I feel Hijazayn in the second khana. Modulation peaks on the c and created a tension that resolves the D to the tenth bar. I think that this approach came to me because of what the Egyptian subcommittee at the 1932 congress established : a piece of music can start on any note but it is imperative that end on the tonic (asas). Here I'm really curious to know what Arab style players think.

Attachment: ENSEIGNEMENT ET ORALITE A LA VEILLE DU XXIe SIECLE.zip (570kB)
This file has been downloaded 196 times

David.B - 9-3-2011 at 05:07 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Jono Oud N.Z

Traditionally, maqam Bayati does not have a focus on the Rast jins on b7 (C) under the tonic, but this is very common to Ushshaq.
This would make the transition to Ushshaq more likely traditionally. The lower Rast on G jins is not always present.
In Bayati, the main sayr is; G, F Ed, D (descending).
Here are two pieces that illustrate the differences.
Often Syrian and Egyptian (etc) musicians play Bayati-Ushshaq as one maqam these days (Bayati).
Older Arab archive recordings reveal the differences though.
In Turkish music the separation is more pronounced.

OK, I understand. So, what I call 'Bayati' is 'Ushshaq'. This explains why I find it hard to locate when the modulation ends ...

David.B - 9-4-2011 at 02:24 AM

02:16 The E-b- is still a little low.

02:17 In the phrase D E-b- F, D E-b- F, F E-b- D C. The E-b- comes back a little higher : Rast.

02:26 Ab, precadential accidental.

02:29 Ditto.

David.B - 9-5-2011 at 03:59 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David.B

I feel it like that at 02:45, a suspended cadence on D (you have a qarar too), what do you think?

In fact we have the same scenario, Qarar on D (DD) at 02:45, and glissando F -> Gb -> F ... (touch of Saba) at 02:56, and focus on C. I'm not sure but the E-b- sounds a little bit low too (and maybe the BB-b- as well). So, I guess we're back on Ushshaq.

Hi

Jono Oud N.Z - 9-5-2011 at 06:09 PM

I have been away for a few days.
I will get back to this discussion soon.
Very interesting!

David.B - 9-6-2011 at 02:27 AM

Welcome back :wavey:

Now I'm puzzled about the Gb used as a touch of Saba. At 02:00 and 02:45 it's OK, GA uses to make qarar for a specific reason.

But at 04:08 :

E-b- F G Ab B c B Ab G F E-b- F G, GG
Ab G F E-b- D
B Ab G F E-b-
c d B Ab B c Ab G Ab B G F G Ab F Gb F (related, but not a trill) E-b- F E-b- D E-b- D C
Ab G F E-b- D D E-b- (tremolo) D C

And at 08:00 :

F G A Bb c Bb Bb A Bb A Bb A (trill) G A G Ab G F G F Gb F E-b- F E-b- F E-b- D
c Bb A G, Bb A G F, G F E-b- D, F E-b- D C
G BB-b- C D (tremolo), F E-b- D F E-b- D E-b- (starts on F, focus on E-b-) D C

The Gb in red don't belong to Saba. To me it sounds more like a precadential accidental. This accidental is common in Nahawand for example but nothing is written about it in Rast!

Jono Oud N.Z - 9-7-2011 at 12:10 AM

Hi, back again..
Interesting...
I have a book called 'The Repertoire of Iraqi Maqam' by Rob Simms, it is very good.
The book contains vocal transcriptions and the theory of the Iraqi Maqam. This can be applied to oud and instruments too.
Page 22 in the book mentions two varieties of Rast; 'Rast Hindi' and 'Rast Turki'.
'Rast Turki' has a naghmah modulation of Saba on 2.
This could possibly explain this.
Saba on 2 resembles Nahawand Murassah somewhat too.

I just looked at your description of the notes again..
Another possiblity is a hint of Mukhalef (Iraqi; Segah with flat 3; Gb).
Master Munir Bashir even modulates briefly from Hijazkar to Mukhalef on the third.

http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=12198#pid82...

Actually...
I had a few listens, and I believe it is a touch of Saba (D).
This seems to help the downward flow to the tonic, and pull the emphasis away from the fifth (the opposite of the Ab)
This note is used in cadences in Hijazkar all the time too (although not Saba here, but functionally the same).

David.B - 9-7-2011 at 03:34 AM

You have a bunch of amazing books that I absolutely must have!

Quote: Originally posted by Jono Oud N.Z

I had a few listens, and I believe it is a touch of Saba (D).
This seems to help the downward flow to the tonic, and pull the emphasis away from the fifth (the opposite of the Ab)
This note is used in cadences in Hijazkar all the time too (although not Saba here, but functionally the same).

Yes, this is what I call a precadential accidental.

I think it's a mix too :

02:05 Touch of Saba, because the final cadence is far away, the Ab at 02:26 and 02:29 announce the cadence by emphasis on G.

02:45 Qarar on D (DD) and glissando F -> Gb -> F ... Touch of Saba which works in the cadence.

04:08

E-b- F G Ab B c B Ab G F E-b- F G, GG
Ab G F E-b- D
B Ab G F E-b-
c d B Ab B c Ab G Ab B G F G Ab F Gb F (related, but not a trill) E-b- F E-b- D E-b- D C
Ab G F E-b- D D E-b- (tremolo) D C

The Ab is a part of Suznak and the Gb works as a part of the cadence. The rest on C is really close and E-b- sound high.

08:00

F G A Bb c Bb Bb A Bb A Bb A (trill) G A G Ab G F G F Gb F E-b- F E-b- F E-b- D
c Bb A G, Bb A G F, G F E-b- D, F E-b- D C
G BB-b- C D (tremolo), F E-b- D F E-b- D E-b- (starts on F, focus on E-b-) D C

This phrase sounds perfect as a cadence : Bb leads to the A, Ab leads to the G and Gb to F. Then a quick emphasis on G (and maybe the 'shrunken' grepetto on E-b-) before the final cadence.

Also I found two new examples :

05:04

BB-b- C
E-b- D C, F E-b- D, Gb F E-b-, A-b- G F, B-b- A G, c B-b- A, d
c d c B-b- A G
c d e-b- d c, c B-b- A G, G F E-b- D, D G F E-b- F E-b- D E-b- (grepetto) D C

Here Gb appears in an ascending movement with a A-b- ...

The grepetto is complete and matches with the one at the final cadence. So Gb is a precadential accidental.

06:33 Glissando E-b- (Rast) -> E-b- (Ushshaq/Bayyati), 06:39 Glissando F -> Gb, 06:45 Rest on C. Like at 02:45 both uses are intertwined.

Jono Oud N.Z - 9-7-2011 at 08:48 PM

The term 'precadential accidental' is an excellent one!
This is a good way to describe these notes.

The Ad is also very interesting, it is quite fast and easy to miss this section.

All I can think is that the Ad functions as the third of Hijaz on F, in the old tuning (like Turkish), like Nahawand Murassah again.

These types of variant tunings and subtlety are more common in Turkish music, but they come up in the Iraqi maqam book too (vocal transcriptions) and in older Arabic recordings.

There are definitly two tunings of the Sikah pitch in this taqsim that vary in context too.

David.B - 9-10-2011 at 01:07 AM

I understand what you mean about the A-b-

My thoughts, my feeling to be more precise :

On the 2nd course we have A-b- and B-b- at both ends. It sounds like a shrunken augmented second of A B in the Hijaz jins on G. Also there's a mirroring effect A-b- A l Bb B-b-. Two ajnas fitted togheter with four possibilities (Bayyati, Rast, Nahawand, Hijaz with a shrunken augmented second). But I must confess, this sounds far-fetched ...

David.B - 9-10-2011 at 01:26 AM

03:09 Focus on E-b-, strong presence of maqam Sikah.

David.B - 9-10-2011 at 10:41 AM

03:33 Fast descending movement on the Rast 'scale'

03:35 Many qararat, AAb, FF, DD, GG, C, then a sort of chord F A F which seems to be a qarar ameliorated -> Ornaments

03:51 Many glissando Bb -> A. It acts as a 'leading tone' to the G (AMTMP p.591)

03:54 Ab, Suznak

What happens at 04:08 has been treated here :

Quote: Originally posted by David.B

04:30

A Bb A G G G, B-b- B B-b- B A A A, c d c B-b- B-b- B-b-, d e-b- d c c

Is this ornament, with such an interval (smaller than a minor second), common for you?

Jono Oud N.Z - 9-10-2011 at 04:39 PM

If the 'shrunken augmented second' is too shrunken it becomes Sikah Baladi.
Hijaz should be non-tempered but...

http://www.maqamworld.com/maqamat/sikah.html#sikah-baladi

In the song 'Shams El Asil' sung by Oum kalsoum, there is a modulation from Hijazkar to Sikah Baladi, very interesting and effective, there is a link on the page.

Regarding the B to bd interval, this is certainly not common.
But...

This would be a touch of Mahur I believe.
Mahur is Persian originally (=Ajam, Persian).
But in the Ottoman tradition this became a compound maqam, being a mix of Mahur and Rast.

Dimitrie Cantemir writes:
'...makam mahur which employed the secondary scale degrees buselik and mahur.' (Music of the Ottoman Court').

There seem to be two different versions of Mahur today, the Turkish and the Arabic.
The difference is that the Turkish one has two additional notes; Sikah and Awj.
The Arabic one has only one; Mahur (B).

But...

'...MAHUR, is also incorrectly notated by present performance standards. The notation indicates the pitches Puselik and Mahur for the 3rd and 7th degrees...Musicians...,however invariably perform MAHUR with the same sacle as RAST, i.e., with Segah and Evic as the 3rd and 7th degrees..'

(From Makam, Modal Practice in Turkish Art Music', Karl Signell).

It seems the Arabic version is in the middle, and is described as jins Rast + jins Ajam on Nawa.

http://www.maqamworld.com/maqamat/rast.html#mahur

Muhammad Qadri Dalal's CD 'Unwonted Maqamat' features this version.

http://www.amazon.com/Syrie-muhammad-maq%C3%A2mat-insolites-unwonte...

Two examples of the same piece:

Attachment: phpJUbUMq (67kB)
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David.B - 9-11-2011 at 02:18 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Jono Oud N.Z

If the 'shrunken augmented second' is too shrunken it becomes Sikah Baladi.
Hijaz should be non-tempered but...

http://www.maqamworld.com/maqamat/sikah.html#sikah-baladi

In the song 'Shams El Asil' sung by Oum kalsoum, there is a modulation from Hijazkar to Sikah Baladi, very interesting and effective, there is a link on the page.

You give the name of a maqam to my feeling! Perfect, even better : Sikah Baladi includes the idea of Hijaz (Kar). This small extract could contains, potentially, five genres! This is about concept, not concrete execution ...

Quote: Originally posted by Jono Oud N.Z

Regarding the B to bd interval, this is certainly not common.
But...

This would be a touch of Mahur I believe.
Mahur is Persian originally (=Ajam, Persian).
But in the Ottoman tradition this became a compound maqam, being a mix of Mahur and Rast.

Dimitrie Cantemir writes:
'...makam mahur which employed the secondary scale degrees buselik and mahur.' (Music of the Ottoman Court').

There seem to be two different versions of Mahur today, the Turkish and the Arabic.
The difference is that the Turkish one has two additional notes; Sikah and Awj.
The Arabic one has only one; Mahur (B).

But...

'...MAHUR, is also incorrectly notated by present performance standards. The notation indicates the pitches Puselik and Mahur for the 3rd and 7th degrees...Musicians...,however invariably perform MAHUR with the same sacle as RAST, i.e., with Segah and Evic as the 3rd and 7th degrees..'

(From Makam, Modal Practice in Turkish Art Music', Karl Signell).

It seems the Arabic version is in the middle, and is described as jins Rast + jins Ajam on Nawa.

[url]http://www.maqamworld.com/maqamat/rast.html#mahur

[/url]

Perfect! Nothing to add :bowdown:

Quote: Originally posted by Jono Oud N.Z

Muhammad Qadri Dalal's CD 'Unwonted Maqamat' features this version.

[url]http://www.amazon.com/Syrie-muhammad-maq%C3%A2mat-insolites-unwonte...

[/url]

I'm currently listening to the CD. The booklet brings to me a new info : Mahur = Rast + Tshahar-gah on G.

Jono Oud N.Z - 9-11-2011 at 05:04 PM

Cool

Such an important CD!

This is the only recording of this maqam (at least, a full rendition) on the Arabic oud that I have heard.

...Apart from the Samai Mahur I posted, this is sometimes played at the beginning of a Wasla suite in Rast.
This CD features the piece as 'Samai Rast', at the beginning..

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hermana-Luna-Turath-Al-Ensemble-/2608102347...

David.B - 9-12-2011 at 09:26 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David.B

04:30

A Bb A G G G, B-b- B B-b- B A A A, c d c B-b- B-b- B-b-, d e-b- d c c

Is this ornament, with such an interval (smaller than a minor second), common for you?

After this phrase the highest part of the maqam Rast is explored until the note g.

David.B - 9-17-2011 at 01:13 AM

04:53

Bb, A Bb, A Bb c d Bb A-b- G F E-b- D E-b- F G A A-b- (G) (glissando), E-b- Gb F, D F E-b-, C E-b- D C BB-b- BB-b-

05:02

Descent on the Rast scale from c to C.

Quote: Originally posted by David.B

05:04

BB-b- C
E-b- D C, F E-b- D, Gb F E-b-, A-b- G F, B-b- A G, c B-b- A, d
c d c B-b- A G
c d e-b- d c, c B-b- A G, G F E-b- D, D G F E-b- F E-b- D E-b- (grepetto) D C

My first feeling is to understand the rest on BB-b- as a leading tone to C in the next phrase. But I wonder about Bastanikar.

"3. Taqsim in maqam bastah nkar
This long improvisation in three parts is characterised b numerous modal ambiguitezs and by progressive construction of the maqam bastah nkar which does not appear until the end of the second minute. The main maqam is referred to more than it is played, acting as a sort of watermark to which the musician periodically returns, with discreet touches, between his explorations of other modes such as hijaz, saba, nahawand, tshahar-gah, bayati ..."

Muhammad Qadri Dalal, Unwonted maqamat.

I should listen to this track carefully, but it's too much work, if someone can infirm or confirm a touch of Bastanikar here ...

David.B - 9-18-2011 at 02:20 AM

05:20

E-b- F G A-b- Bb Bb A-b- A-b- G G, G A-b- Bb A-b- G, G+c Bb A-b- F, A G, Bb cb Bb A-b- A-b- G, G A-b- Bb -> cb -> Bb -> cb ... c Bb c d -> c, c Bb cb Bb A A-b- G, c Bb c eb d c c Bb A-b- G, G A-b- Bb A-b- G, G A-b- Bb c d Bb, A-b- Bb c A-b-, G A-b- Bb G F G A-b- F E-b- F G F E-b- D C

Here we have a modulation in maqam Nirz (Nairuz). The jins Bayyati on G is exploited from G to eb, with a touch of Saba on G (cb).

Note: this kind of 'chromatic' movement in tremolo Bb cb Bb A A-b- G

David.B - 9-24-2011 at 02:26 AM

05:49

Bb A-b- G F, Bb A-b- G F, Bb A-b- G F, Bb A-b- G F, Bb -> cb -> Bb, Bb A-b-, A-b- G, G F, F E-b-, D E-b- F G A-b- c Bb, c A-b- Bb G A-b- F

From 05:46 to 05:58, focus on Bb and F in Ushshaq on G with cb as a touch of Saba. I deduce this from what's going on previously at 02:00, 02:45 and next at 06:33 on maqam Ushshaq (D).

David.B - 10-15-2011 at 02:00 AM

A quick come back at

00:53 Trill G -> A-b-, touch of Nirz

And now

06:01 A, Rast

06:21 Bb used in the final cadence of the non-metric taqsim

06:34 Rhythm Wahda

06:59 Trill G -> A-b-, touch of Nirz

07:02 Ditto

07:19 Ab, Suznak

07:38 eb and focus on c, Nahawand on c

07:47 E-b-, Suznak

07:53 Trill Ab -> Bb, touch of Kurd on G

07:54 Trill B-> c and Ab, Suznak

08:00 A, Rast

And Finally

Quote: Originally posted by David.B

08:00

F G A Bb c Bb Bb A Bb A Bb A (trill) G A G Ab G F G F Gb F E-b- F E-b- F E-b- D
c Bb A G, Bb A G F, G F E-b- D, F E-b- D C
G BB-b- C D (tremolo), F E-b- D F E-b- D E-b- (starts on F, focus on E-b-) D C

This phrase sounds perfect as a cadence : Bb leads to the A, Ab leads to the G and Gb to F. Then a quick emphasis on G (and maybe the 'shrunken' grepetto on E-b-) before the final cadence.

David.B - 10-16-2011 at 05:41 AM

I forgot :

At 06:31, I guess it's an "impro". If it's not, please let me know

David.B - 11-27-2011 at 08:28 AM

I'm back to add an interesting reference about Ushshak :

"94- The second (mode) derived from the rast after zankulah,
is the makam 'ushshak for whom my heart was glad.
95- His starting (note) is the first companion,
and then climb all (notes) quickly to the sixth,
96- bring them down to the second note,
and settle down on the third you there now."

The book of generosity in the understanding of modes

by Shams al-Din al-Saydawi

David.B - 8-12-2012 at 05:48 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David.B

00:56 Trill G -> Ab, so the Ab sketched at 00:54 is more important and l'd like to call it a dunt (AMTMP p.618), but it's not used as a precadential accidental.

I would say it's a touch of Suznak ...

The difference is subtle, but at 00:54 there's a glissando A -> A-b- (not Ab) and at 00:56 the trill is G -> A-b- then F G A

01:19 Glissando F -> G Tremolo on C, CC

06:51 Glissando F -> G C x 3

06:58 Trill A -> Bb + G -> A-b-

I think, what we find here, in the taqsim, is inspired by what we can ear during the last piece.

David.B - 4-11-2013 at 10:50 AM

Finally, I managed to do a cover!

https://soundcloud.com/david-brocard/taksim-rast-george-abyad-cover

Still I've whittled down more than a minute in comparison with the original :shrug:

Rambaldi47 - 4-13-2013 at 11:33 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David.B

Finally, I managed to do a cover!

https://soundcloud.com/david-brocard/taksim-rast-george-abyad-cover

Still I've whittled down more than a minute in comparison with the original :shrug:

Awesome! Very close to the original. :buttrock:

David.B - 4-14-2013 at 05:20 AM

Thanks, greatly appreciated

A good thing done, now I'll be able to focus on the recording of and about the Nahda.