Mike's Oud Forums

Why don't ouds use tuning mechanics similar to guitars?

naddad - 11-15-2011 at 08:20 AM

A oud needs to be tuned at least every day and each time it takes much longer than tuning a guitar.
Why haven't tuning mechnics been used for ouds?

Brian Prunka - 11-15-2011 at 11:34 AM

An oud with properly fitted tuning pegs of good quality doesn't need much adjustment unless there are changes in the weather/temperature/humidity.
Once you get used to it, it doesn't take much longer than tuning a guitar (accounting for the 5 extra strings).

Having 11 machines on the pegbox would dramatically throw off the delicate weight balance of the oud. Ouds are much lighter than guitars, and the extra weight would be a problem.

Once you get experienced with pegs, it really isn't much harder to deal with.

naddad - 11-15-2011 at 03:01 PM

In my (very limited) experience, pegs always need to be pushed in every now and then so they don't slip. Moreover it is difficult to make adjustments as fine and as easy as mechanical tuners.
For example, if I'm tuning an upper peg (i.e. one pointing toward the sky), I need like a table to rest the tip of the oud head on it in order to be able to push the peg down. Same thing for the pegs pointing down.

I understand it's a weight issue but I guess I have a hard time understanding why the switch hasn't been made. Isn't it just a matter of habit? One can get used to a slightly head-heavy oud... no?


ameer - 11-15-2011 at 03:16 PM

I once (approx ten years ago) owned an oud that had been retrofitted with mechanical tuners. I wouldn't have described it as unusually head or neck-heavy- if anything it balanced out quite nicely. Then again that probably means that the body was unusually heavy to begin with. It didn't have very much ring to it so perhaps the body was too heavy.

spyros mesogeia - 11-15-2011 at 03:23 PM

A very good quality oud doesn't have any issues of that kind,there are instruments 100 years old and the pegs work perfectly.
Regards:wavey:

naddad - 11-15-2011 at 04:10 PM

A very good quality oud would also cost a lot of money. Few can afford that. Conversely, take any beginner guitar and you could tune it in a snap.
I have a friend who wanted to learn oud, and was so frustrated tuning his $150 oud with wooden pegs that he just gave up the instrument. Beginners need an easy tuning the most.

DoggerelPundit - 11-15-2011 at 04:53 PM

My 2 cents - What would be the added cost of 11 (compact yet effective) tuners production fitted to an otherwise inexpensive oud, including pegbox redesign? Would they sell?

Would that be less expensive than a full peg refit/replace by a violin luthier, on an already purchased inexpensive, traditionally pegged instrument? In the case of inexpensive ouds, which nonetheless play and sound well, it might be worth it.

Also, haven't there been a number of threads here with good advice on peg-slip problems?

-Stephen

Marcus - 11-16-2011 at 03:02 AM


Hi all :wavey:

I think another reason for wooden pegs is that the sound/vibration of the strings have to go thrue all the wood of a oud. With mechanics the vibration stops at the tuner.
Just take a look at professional Flamenco-guitars,the old ones shure have wooden pegs, but the high quality new ones have them also.

The push-the-peg-in-problem dissapears after a while, you just have to get the "trick".

Cheers

Marcus

sylvainbd - 11-16-2011 at 05:37 AM

Hey :)

I found good compromise for ouds ...
http://ssl.bfit.jp/~jby/product_info.php?products_id=169

This oud maker used this keys for his ouds ...
http://www.provost-guitare.com/

naddad - 11-16-2011 at 05:58 AM

Just found the solution
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nw_V_UX5Vnk&feature=related
Skip to 6:28 for a demo

naddad - 11-16-2011 at 06:12 AM

Quote: Originally posted by sylud  
Hey :)

I found good compromise for ouds ...
http://ssl.bfit.jp/~jby/product_info.php?products_id=169

This oud maker used this keys for his ouds ...
http://www.provost-guitare.com/


I'd buy this.

Brian Prunka - 11-16-2011 at 11:40 AM

Quote: Originally posted by sylud  
Hey :)

I found good compromise for ouds ...
http://ssl.bfit.jp/~jby/product_info.php?products_id=169

This oud maker used this keys for his ouds ...
http://www.provost-guitare.com/


This isn't a bad idea, but it would be $120 + labor to replace all the pegs on an oud; if the problem is cheapo ouds, why would you spend all that money on a cheap oud?

John Erlich - 11-16-2011 at 02:32 PM

All,

I believe that Shehata makes ouds with guitar-style machine tuning pegs--maybe by special order only. I tried one at his Cairo studio in 2000. I found the instrument uncomfortably top-heavy at the peg box. More importantly, it was just UGLY. I ended buying an oud with "traditional" friction pegs. I must say that the Shehata's friction pegs rarely slip, and the instrument doesn't need to be retuned very often.

Just my $.02 on the subject...

Peace out,
"Udi" John

Fernando of Sor - 11-16-2011 at 05:08 PM

I'm toying with the idea of temporarily using a 12 string acoustic guitar with the frets removed, and filled in. Then using Oud strings.
However, I do realise that an acoustic 12 string is far heavier built than an Oud, and consequently would not be anywhere near as resonant.
I'm sure any Oud afficionado's would consider this as appalling. And that would be fair enougth.
But it would keep me playing until I can afford a higher quality instrument :airguitar:

- Mark

Brian Prunka - 11-16-2011 at 08:23 PM

Honestly, playing a fretless 12 string guitar is nothing like an oud and will not really help you progress as an oud player. You would be better off with a cheap oud. Acceptable student-model turkish ouds can be found inexpensively that would be a much better solution.


Fernando of Sor - 11-16-2011 at 09:10 PM

Hi Brian, yes you are probably right. I have very limited options at the moment financially , the chance of me even getting a student model Turkish Oud is remote. The 12 string idea would be a very temporary solution, which would only allow me to study theory to a limited degree. I am in the process of selling a budget Oud, and really want to save to get a higher level Oud of some description before I commit myself fully to proper study, which is my intention. I am considering the possibility of getting an electric Oud also, for practical reasons.
But I take your advice on board. All the best - Mark

danieletarab - 9-23-2012 at 12:54 AM

You don't have to spend a fortune to get a good oud with pegs that work perfectly. I have a nisadir oud that costed me 600 euro, an it,s as easy as a guitar to tune.

jiggo - 10-3-2012 at 03:06 AM

I would definitely welcome this idea of using mechanics for the pegs. I don't know any other instrument which is so easy to tune like a guitar, because the machanics allow very precise adjusting due to the leverage effect.

Matthias - 10-3-2012 at 03:31 PM

Quote: Originally posted by naddad  
A oud needs to be tuned at least every day and each time it takes much longer than tuning a guitar.
Why haven't tuning mechnics been used for ouds?

Hello,

if you do not like wooden pegs, theese pegs will be a solution:
http://www.wittner-gmbh.de/cgi-bin/db_search_e.pl?rubrik=Finetune-P...

You will find them in my shop:

http://music-strings.de/index.php?k=553&lang=eng

Best regards

Matthias

fernandraynaud - 10-4-2012 at 05:48 AM

Matthias, am I reading this right? 333 Euros plus shipping and installation for 12 pegs? I'd have to do this in stages. I can afford 4 pegs now. Which courses do you think I should convert? But what also worries me is that the strings "click". Maybe I need a nut with ball bearings?

Matthias - 10-4-2012 at 09:52 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  
Matthias, am I reading this right? 333 Euros plus shipping and installation for 12 pegs? I'd have to do this in stages. I can afford 4 pegs now. Which courses do you think I should convert? But what also worries me is that the strings "click". Maybe I need a nut with ball bearings?


Hello,

The price comes from the producer Wittner, not from me.
They are originally developed for Violin Viola and Cello. I suppose you know the prices of theese instruments. There you have another relation between new pegs and the instruments value. I personally prefer wooden pegs. I never had problems with my installed wooden pegs. I gave here only an information that theese pegs exist. But btw. I already had some clients who got them from me and know collegues who usees them.

Finally, if he taper of the old and Wittner pegs is the same, the work for changing is minimal and can probably done by the player himself.

Matthias