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Playing in tune

luan - 1-24-2012 at 07:07 PM

Surprisingly, as much as I search, I haven't found any thread that discuss this topic:
How to play in tune and the technique required to do it.

I'm relative new to the oud, and I can tune more or less 75% of the notes I play, however i'm self taught and I don't know how some things are supossed to be done.
1) When you tune the open strings and then you start to play, you just search for the notes in first position with the first finger, and then you "lock" the thumb on that place so all the other notes are in pitch?
That seems logic and that is what I've heard, however that doesn't seems to be enough, because when my first finger goes to another string, seems like the in tune note it isn't in the same place but on another string, maybe it is 1 mm to the left or to the right. I hope I'm being clear here (I'm from argentina).
2) If I want to play higher in the register, that point where the neck meets the body is the perfect 5th of the open string, but the same things happens, it's not on the same exactly spot on each string, am I right (again)?
3) If I use the first finger to play an A on the G string for example, I lock the thumb in order to play that on pitch, ok. Now, if I have to play an Ab, I have to "unlock" the thumb, move my hand a little to the left, and play that Ab, and then return the hand to the "normal position"?

Is there anything I'm doing wrong in each point?
Any suggestions on how to approach this?

Thanks a lot!!

Marcus - 1-24-2012 at 11:06 PM

Hi luan :wavey:

Where you heard that you should lock your thumb? That`ll make your hole hand kind of tensed, so relaxed playing is immpossible.
1.
If you dont get the right tone in the same possition, maybe the strings are not proper tuned? A few hz are allready a millimeter.
2. same thing?
3.could you post a photo of what you called "normal position" of your hand? Maybe something is wrong with it. That can make a lot of problems in many cases, not only with "hit the right tone".
I also hope I'm being clear here (I'm from germany).

Cheers,
Marcus

fernandraynaud - 1-25-2012 at 05:51 AM

Your hearing is the most important. You can easily hear a few cents' error and correct once you play oud for a while. It doesn't hurt to use various aids to get you oriented initially. One is a tuner that's fast enough that you can watch it as you play. AP Tuner for the PC is free and works OK. Another is to put marks on strings. I admit I still like to mark my bass string on the player side, so it's not visible from the front, because there are some days my whole pitch sense shifts, which sounds OK within the oud, but terrible with another instrument tuned ET or whatever. I also like two little inlays on the neck at the third and fourth. But it's just for orientation, as you're not after fret-like intervals.

The issue of "not in the same spot" has to do with a lot of things, one of them being that perfect intervals do NOT fall on "the same spots", proof in the fact the circle of fifths does not land on a perfect octave. They do in Equal Tempered, like on a guitar, but those are not perfect intervals, ET was developed as a compromise where ALL the intervals are a little off. On harpsichords we use different tunings that are perfects in certain keys only. On the oud you can always correct by a hair, except the open strings. I suspect that most good oud players work entirely by ear and tune the open strings to perfect intervals, then correct as needed, although chords are not much used, there's still the sympathetic resonance of the whole string set. There's that wonderful illustration from, what, the 13th century, and it shows the Arabic player playing single note style using a risha, and the European playing chords with his fingers. I wonder how they sounded together ;-)

Christian_and_Muslim_playing_ouds_Catinas_de_Santa_Maria_by_king_Alfonso_Xm.jpg - 172kB

I have an oud made in Cairo that has "fretlines" inlaid on the neck. We went through this with Richard here, the "frets" are NOT in ET positions, yet they work very well, to my surprise.

littleseb - 1-25-2012 at 06:15 AM

hi luan,

couple of things stood out from what you said:

- first of all: when you are on the G string, your basic position is the following: 1st finger Ab, 2nd finger A, 3rd finger Bb, 4th finger B. Stick to this position untill you can play in tune and feel confident. practise the chromatic scales in this position very very slowly, then gradually build up the speed.

- your thumb: in this basic position your thumb should be where the neck meets the pegbox. try not to move it, even when playing the 4th finger. this will feel weird in the beginning, but you will soon get used to it. that way you always know where your fingers should be.

- it is very useful to know exactly where the C is (3rd finger A string). practice maqamat starting with C (Nahawand and Ajam are good to start with as they don't have quartertones). the F should be on exactly the same spot, but one string up. if it isn't you are probably not tuned correctly.

- don't worry too much about the higher registers untill you are confident in the basic position.

- train your ear. get to know each and every note on the oud. this is a lot easier than you think it might be.

i hope this helps. if anybody thinks I'm talking balls, feel free to correct me.

good luck, let us know how you get on!

Seb

Brian Prunka - 1-25-2012 at 09:59 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

The issue of "not in the same spot" has to do with a lot of things, one of them being that perfect intervals do NOT fall on "the same spots", proof in the fact the circle of fifths does not land on a perfect octave.

Fernand, I don't think these have anything to do with one another. The intervals do fall in the "same" spots, the minor issues of string diameter and parallax notwithstanding. The relationship of stacked fifths to the octave is irrelevant.

Most likely, either the strings are not correctly tuned or the poster is mistaken when thinking the fingers are in the "same" spot due to the distortion of perspective when seen from behind the oud.

fernandraynaud - 1-25-2012 at 03:39 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka

Fernand, I don't think these have anything to do with one another. The intervals do fall in the "same" spots.

I'm not 100% sure of how it all works out, "in the end", but it sure seems to me that the don't (line up). If they did, then why would fretted instruments ever have been made with staggered frets?

http://home.comcast.net/~dcanright/guitar/

We're talking about small offsets, and of course in the context of Western chords and intervals, like perfect thirds, fifths, etc. It's one of the beauties of the oud, that we can have any intervals we want. We all know that magic thing that happens when one note is played and other strings resonate, and that's the feel of perfect intervals. I suspect a good player does it all without even thinking about it.

Also look at what a viola da gamba player is doing:

luan - 1-25-2012 at 06:33 PM

Quote: Originally posted by littleseb

- first of all: when you are on the G string, your basic position is the following: 1st finger Ab, 2nd finger A, 3rd finger Bb, 4th finger B. Stick to this position untill you can play in tune and feel confident. practise the chromatic scales in this position very very slowly, then gradually build up the speed.

Does everybody uses this fingering?
It is logic to me, but my teacher told me to use the first finger to play Ab and A, that's why I'm asking

Fernandraynaud:
I think you are right. I thought about what you said when I made this thread, but I wanted to wait to conclude to that.
I'm a guitarist, and I know the problems of guitar being non tempered. And playing in the same spot on Oud for each string would logically have the same problem.
I will maybe ask a violinist what he thinks about this.

Thanks a lot!!

Brian Prunka - 1-25-2012 at 08:15 PM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka

Fernand, I don't think these have anything to do with one another. The intervals do fall in the "same" spots.

I'm not 100% sure of how it all works out, "in the end", but it sure seems to me that the don't (line up). If they did, then why would fretted instruments ever have been made with staggered frets?

That is because harmony in Western music is based on both 3rds and 5ths, not only fifths. Frets tuned to provide fourths/fifths correctly will not provide correct thirds/sixths.

You are correct that if you tried to tune 13 open strings all in 4ths on the oud that you would wind up with a problem, but I assumed we were talking about playing an actual oud, not a hypothetical one.

Quote:

Yes, there are many small offsets used in Arabic music for various reasons, but the difference between notes a fourth apart on adjacent strings in terms of fingerings is an order of magnitude smaller than the difference between a finger being angled 90º vs. 75º.

My advice would be to find a teacher, this problem is almost certainly due to not having any guidance, and not due to any variation in the actual location of the pitches on the strings.

Brian Prunka - 1-25-2012 at 08:19 PM

Quote: Originally posted by luan

Quote: Originally posted by littleseb

Does everybody uses this fingering?
It is logic to me, but my teacher told me to use the first finger to play Ab and A, that's why I'm asking

Yes, this is the fingering everyone uses. On fretless instruments it's essential to grasp the importance of positions. Oud players tend not to use specific names, but based on traditional string terminology, Littleseb is describing the "half position": i.e., the position one half-step up from the open string.
Your teacher is telling you that you also use the first finger for A, because a lot of playing on the oud is in "first position", i.e., the position one whole step up from the open string. The two are separate, and you need to learn both, but the basic idea of one finger per half step is sound.

luan - 1-25-2012 at 09:01 PM

Thanks man!
I was already using those two positions, each one for each maqam when it was more appropiate.

I can play in tune, really. My dad is a musician and he is listening to me when I practice, and he would definitely notice if I play something out of tune, and I realize when I do that.

It's just that when I play an open string and then the 5th of it, there's no way to fake that, you have to play it 100% in tune or it doesn't sound right, so that is a good exercise to train the fingers and ears!

Is the "second position" used on strings other than the first?
I can play in tune in the first string in all positions (just have to look a little to my hand)

Thanks!!

Brian Prunka - 1-26-2012 at 09:54 AM

Hi Luan,

Second position and higher are mostly used on the first two courses, although they can be and are used on lower courses in some circumstances.

Have you tried playing in front of a mirror? It gives you a more accurate view of your hand and allows you to practice with the correct posture while still being able to look at your fingers when you need to.

I'll reiterate that very slight differences in the angle of your hand and/or finger will cause dramatic shifts in pitch, so consistency here is very important in order to assure that you can put your fingers in the same place each time and get the same note.

Regarding "locking" the thumb, you should be able to play without your thumb even touching the oud . . . there shouldn't be pressure or a feeling that your hand is fixed in place.

Brian Prunka - 1-26-2012 at 10:01 AM

Also, depending how you tune, you might have slight variations in the location of the notes due to equal temperament. In short, fourths are 2 cents too wide in equal temperament, and as a result, if you tune all your open strings with a tuner you will have to adjust some positions slightly to compensate. It's not so bad that one can't compensate, but it is a minor issue.

Since in Arabic music we view G as the central note, let's assume G is the tuning reference. If you tune the open strings with a tuner:

c is 2 cents too high. This is nearly imperceptible.
g is in tune
D is 2 cents too low, also nearly imperceptible.
A is 4 cents too low, this is slightly noticable
F is 4 cents too high, this is slightly noticeable (if you tune to G, obviously it is in tune)
C is 2 cents too high.

So in Equal temperament, you will have to shift the fingers slightly to get pure fifths.

luan - 1-26-2012 at 10:34 AM

Oh, now I get it!
Thanks a lot man!!!
That is exactly what was happening, since I use the tuner, I have to move my fingers a little in order to get the fifths.
So, you guys recommend to tune by ear?

Thanks again!!

alim - 1-26-2012 at 11:06 AM

Brian,

Regarding the ET vs Just Intonation tuning, do you or others tune your oud using JI, if so do you center on G?

I have a tuner app (Cleartone on the iPhone) that claims to do JI,
and has the following Temperaments:

Equal Temperament
Strings: Stretch Tuned Guitar, Violin Family
Pythagorean/Just: Pythagorean, Pythagorean Just, Standard Just Intonation
Mean Tone: ...... a bunch of options ..........
Well Tempered: ...... a bunch of options ..........
French: ...... a bunch of options ..........

I have been using the ET setting, would you recommend any of the other temperaments?

Thanks,

Ali-

Brian Prunka - 1-26-2012 at 11:41 AM

Alim,

I and many others tune our G to a reference, and the rest of the strings to pure fourths by ear.

This is Pythagorean tuning, which is described as well in ancient texts by Farabi, etc.

I cannot speak to the accuracy of specific tuning settings on the "cleartone" tuner, but if you choose Pythagorean centered on G, it should work.

If I was playing with a piano or guitar, I might use the ET setting in order to get a better compromise.

littleseb - 1-26-2012 at 02:06 PM

Quote: Originally posted by luan

So, you guys recommend to tune by ear?

i tend to use a tuner for brand new strings, but just as a rough guide (new strings can do my head in, sometimes). once they have settled a bit i tune by ear. i find it easier and more reliable.

stos - 6-15-2012 at 01:27 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka

c is 2 cents too high. This is nearly imperceptible.
g is in tune
D is 2 cents too low, also nearly imperceptible.
A is 4 cents too low, this is slightly noticable
F is 4 cents too high, this is slightly noticeable (if you tune to G, obviously it is in tune)
C is 2 cents too high.

So in Equal temperament, you will have to shift the fingers slightly to get pure fifths.

hello! I jump ın the topic because I was talkıng about thıs wıth an oudıst here ın ıstanbul about thıs pythagorean tunıng

he tune hıs oud by ear

but he told on a tuner to do lıke thıs (440 hz ıs just an exemple)

upper strıng 442
440
442
440
bass strıng 440
(wıthout bam)

ıt doesnt fıt wıth your estımatıon

what do you thınk about ıt?

could you explaın why takıng the G strıng as base?

when you talk about "cents" what do you mean?

thanks a lot!

Brian Prunka - 6-15-2012 at 02:00 PM

Stos,

It's confusing to talk about tuning to Hz, because Hz is cycles per second so it's different in every octave, while every octave has 1200 cents.

So if A=880, 440, 220, 110, one A to the next might be a difference of 110 Hz or 440 Hz.
Whereas it's always 1200 cents regardless of what octave you are in.

I would be interested to have your teacher tune by ear and then check with a tuner. I doubt that it will match with what you have outlined here; in fact I can't imagine how someone would tune that way by ear.

In your example, the interval between the first two strings is very wide. The interval between the 2nd and 3rd courses is pretty good, but the 3rd and 4th are also very wide. The 5th course depends on what you are tuning it to, if it is all 4ths, it would be one way, if it is an octave below the 2nd course then obviously it should be tuned the same as the 2nd course. If it is a 9th below the 2nd course (as in my example), it is different again.

Assuming you are using the ABead tuning, the A, e, and a strings would sound good together but the B would be low and the d high. I can't see why someone would want it that way, and I don't know anyone who tunes that way. Have you tried tuning that way? Do you like the way it sounds? I'm curious to hear it.

The 2nd course is the base because it is the central pitch or dominant in most maqamat. In Turkish music this would usually be "A", in Arabic music it is usually "G".

fernandraynaud - 6-15-2012 at 02:09 PM

Cents are 1/100 of a half tone. So the third note of Rast will fall around 50 cents flat from E, and the third note of Ajam somewhere around 20(?) cents flat from E. Of course it depends on the temperament used, but the concept of cents is very useful.

How close together do people tune a course? Playing oud has sure improved my hearing. I used to have to mute one string in a pair when tuning big clavichords that have e.g. 60 notes, so 120 pegs. Mercifully, and for reasons that nobody understands, the also all-wooden Clavichords stay in tune better than most other instruments. Anyway, now I can tune pairs easily without muting a string, and if the two strings are exactly in tune the volume drops. There are subtle offsets that give different sounds. So how do most roux players approach this?

stos - 6-15-2012 at 02:13 PM

wow thanks for the quıck reply!

Hıs estımatıon was done lıke you saıd : tunıng by ear and the check wıth tuner

but I thınk we made ıt quıck and not very precısely

I thınk ıll try thıs pythagorean free tuner we dıscussed on the forum and see wıth thıs oudıst what he thınks about ıt

Im sorry beıng a begınner ın makam theory but I had the feelıng that a lot of makams had D or C (for arabıc oud..) has a tonıc and ımportant note?

but maybe G ıs always there or offen ? ıs that what you mean?

thanks a lot!

fernandraynaud - 6-15-2012 at 02:17 PM

The G is central to both C and D based maqamat. I think they call G the "tonic" of C (Rast) where jazz and rock players would say C is the tonic.

Jody Stecher - 6-15-2012 at 03:18 PM

Test any two tuners made by different manufacturers and you will see that they do not agree. So they can't all be correct. Even were that not true (and it IS true), tuning tempered music by trusting an electronic device that has no musical sensibilities and no cultural priorities will lead to muzak, but not to any kind of music that sounds like humans are involved. So using tuners for anything but reference in tempered music is... what shall we say? ... is SILLY.

Using electronic tuners for anything but reference (to get started, to get G for instance) for modal music is ... what shall we say? ... to call it "madness" overstates the case.... let's call it "guaranteed to be unproductive. "

For instance to get a real world rendition of Hicaz/Hijaz to correspond to any brand of tuner is bound to be frustrating. How anyone can assume the machine is right and the musician is wrong is hard for me to understand. Harder yet to understand is asking whether one should place the fingers where it sounds right. Of course one should. Later as one's hearing gets refined the fingers will adjust in tiny increments.

RubabPlayer - 6-15-2012 at 09:08 PM

To be honest fretless scares the hell out of me for the reasons that are being discussed here. I am buying and Oud after long consideration. My biggest worry is finding a practical and effective way to get used to the note locations and later become able to adapt quarter tones that are so much a part of our music.

Coming over from Rubab and Setar, it is pretty challenging to think of doing the same without frets. Though I do play off the fret area on the Rubab finger board.

So here is my question. Is there a proven model that the players here have used to drill these note placements into our heads and hands? And without local instructors, are there resources out there that the community here recommend to help with this?

Jody Stecher - 6-15-2012 at 10:20 PM

Ears.

Quote: Originally posted by RubabPlayer

So here is my question. Is there a proven model that the players here have used to drill these note placements into our heads and hands?

luan - 6-16-2012 at 06:51 AM

Quote: Originally posted by RubabPlayer

To be honest fretless scares the hell out of me for the reasons that are being discussed here. I am buying and Oud after long consideration. My biggest worry is finding a practical and effective way to get used to the note locations and later become able to adapt quarter tones that are so much a part of our music.

Coming over from Rubab and Setar, it is pretty challenging to think of doing the same without frets. Though I do play off the fret area on the Rubab finger board.

So here is my question. Is there a proven model that the players here have used to drill these note placements into our heads and hands? And without local instructors, are there resources out there that the community here recommend to help with this?

It's easier than it seems, trust me : )

stos - 6-16-2012 at 10:35 AM

hmm İ have another question about the JI tunıng of the oud

maybe I don t understand practılly what does tunıng "by ear" means :

ıs ıt usıng the neck/body joınt to tune the lower strıng every tıme or really just tune by ear? are they dıfferent technıques somebody could post about ıt?

maybe ım affraıd beıng so long tıme dependant on ET and don t trust my ears any more :shrug:

thanks a lot

Jody Stecher - 6-16-2012 at 11:45 AM

"By ear" means the same method one would use to sing in tune. The human being does have a neck/body joint but it is not relevant for making vocal music. Whatever tuning one uses on oud the four highest courses are always an interval of a fourth apart. This is an easy interval to hear and to know if it is correct or not. Our brains seem to be hard wired to recognize it although constant dependance for all pitches on electronic tuners can temporarily limit our natural ability to hear it. The fourth is the range between the lowest to the highest pitch in the djins of almost any maqam you can think of. It's a "tetrachord" . The remaining (lower strings) are octaves of one of the higher strings or are also tuned an interval of a fourth below its neighboring string.

Quote: Originally posted by stos

hmm İ have another question about the JI tunıng of the oud

maybe I don t understand practılly what does tunıng "by ear" means :

ıs ıt usıng the neck/body joınt to tune the lower strıng every tıme or really just tune by ear? are they dıfferent technıques somebody could post about ıt?

maybe ım affraıd beıng so long tıme dependant on ET and don t trust my ears any more :shrug:

thanks a lot

Brian Prunka - 6-16-2012 at 01:30 PM

Quote: Originally posted by stos

thanks a lot

Jody's comment is correct but might not be enough to help you.

Fundamentally, tuning is about resonance. In a nutshell, resonance is when waveforms line up with one another.

A "perfect fourth" means that the fourth peak of the waveform of the higher string lines up with the third peak of the waveform of the lower string. You don't actually need to know the numbers, this is just an illustration of what happens.

If you have trouble hearing it, practice singing with a drone--your body and brain can feel when resonance occurs. Once you can recognize that feeling, it is relatively easy to recognize it in its subtler form occurring on an instrument.

Being dependent on ET certainly can interfere with developing an internal sense of pitch, IMO. It can confuse you because ET has no perfect resonances except between octaves. Fifths and fourths are pretty close to perfect (as close as humans generally get anyway).

amna.al.hawaj - 6-16-2012 at 02:59 PM

When I first started playing Oud I definitely couldn't tell weather I was hitting the correct notes or not...

I used a marker on the top of the neck to mark each fingers spot then used a mirror to make sure my fingers fall in the right place... lots of Oud students do that... some even use a marker on the strings themselves... then all you do is practice practice practice....

fernandraynaud - 6-16-2012 at 04:57 PM

Watching a tuner program on a laptop as you play can be very helpful at times. The problem with any kind of chromatic markers is that it teaches you to watch your left hand, which is a bad habit and very hard to shake later. I like to put two "dot" guides at the third and the fourth on the side of the fingerboard (like on many guitars), it's OK to glance at now and then, especially if you move your hand a lot and are playing with other instruments, but for practice mostly watch the tuner to check your intonation and help train your ear, while getting away from watching your hands.

Jody Stecher - 6-16-2012 at 06:17 PM

How will the tuner program know if you are practicing the Rast of Turkey or the Rast of Cairo ?

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

Watching a tuner program on a laptop as you play can be very helpful at times. The problem with any kind of chromatic markers is that it teaches you to watch your left hand, which is a bad habit and very hard to shake later. I like to put two "dot" guides at the third and the fourth on the side of the fingerboard (like on many guitars), it's OK to glance at now and then, especially if you move your hand a lot and are playing with other instruments, but for practice mostly watch the tuner to check your intonation and help train your ear, while getting away from watching your hands.

Brian Prunka - 6-16-2012 at 06:51 PM

An overly dogmatic approach can often do nothing more than discourage beginners. Different approaches are necessary for different individuals.

Like you, I would not generally suggest relying on a tuner, but if an individual is having the kind of difficulty that would lead to their giving up then it is the lesser evil and can serve as a temporary stopgap.

If your attitude is "do it by ear, and if you can't then you should give up because you lack musical talent" then I would say that it's not very helpful advice.

RubabPlayer - 6-16-2012 at 07:07 PM

Learning to hear and understand notes is a separate issue from finding them on a given instrument. I have very good sense for notes, event microtones thanks to playing Persian Setar and Turkish Saz. The key to learning to hear the notes is spending a lot of time exposing yourself to them.

But finding notes on an instrument is a matter of practice. Play, play some more and play some more and it will come.

Still intimidated by fretless, but hoping to place that Oud order this week and dive in.

luan - 6-16-2012 at 07:35 PM

There's two intervals that you should test to see if you can know if they are in tune or not: the octave and the fifth.
That's the two I practiced the most at first. They are in the same spot actually, the fifth of one string is the octave of the string before. If you can play those in tune, then you need to hear the other notes in tune in first position. When you master that, you learn second position.

Jody Stecher - 6-16-2012 at 08:05 PM

Brian, I never said anything about talent or quitting. Talent give one a head start, that's all. Anyone can learn to hear but only if they try. My background is in American vernacular music (blues, bluegrass, appalachian music, all of which is microtonal and much of which is modal). I have witnessed an entire generation — no, Two generations become functionally deaf and unable to discern or reproduce the fine and true intonation of the late 19th and early 20th century because they have surrendered their power of discernment to a box (the electronic tuner).

The dogmatic approach is the one that says "I must rely on the tuner because it must be right". My approach is the one that says "playing music without listening is like painting without looking". Or even "playing music by relying on visual cues is like painting by relying on the sound of the paint". In the beginning one's perception of pitch is coarser than it will get later on. But if a music student doesn't make the attempt to hear their ability to hear can't improve.

I would never tell someone to give up. I'm suggesting the opposite. I'm saying "Start Listening and do it today. You'll get better".

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka

An overly dogmatic approach can often do nothing more than discourage beginners. Different approaches are necessary for different individuals.

Like you, I would not generally suggest relying on a tuner, but if an individual is having the kind of difficulty that would lead to their giving up then it is the lesser evil and can serve as a temporary stopgap.

If your attitude is "do it by ear, and if you can't then you should give up because you lack musical talent" then I would say that it's not very helpful advice.

Jody Stecher - 6-16-2012 at 08:08 PM

I submit that these two things are fundamentally the same. If you can hear it you can find it on the string.

Quote: Originally posted by RubabPlayer

Learning to hear and understand notes is a separate issue from finding them on a given instrument.

Brian Prunka - 6-16-2012 at 09:21 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher

The dogmatic approach is the one that says "I must rely on the tuner because it must be right".

The dogmatic approach is the one that says "there is one right way to do something that applies to all people in all situations."

I quite agree with you in the details, but I refuse to agree with a dogmatic approach. There are many as paths to knowledge as there are people.
Note that Fernand suggested using a tuner, not me . . . my suggestion was to sing.

Quote:

I would never tell someone to give up.

You don't have to tell people directly to give up. Whether or not you realize it, an inflexible approach is as good as telling some people to give up.
If you say "this is the one way to learn" and they just can't get it after repeatedly trying then they will conclude that they just don't have the ability. After all, they practiced the "right way" and didn't improve--if the method isn't faulty then it must be their talents that failed them.

Some people have a lot of trouble with pitch and tuning. It is important to give those people as many tools as possible to ease the intense frustration of learning to play an instrument. If for a certain period of time this includes using a tuner then that is okay.

Thousands of string players used markers in the early stages of study to help learn the positions without detrimental effects on their ears. Fuzzy hearing can be refined later once a student has made some progress.

On the occasions when I thought a student could benefit from using a tuner as a reference, I made sure to communicate very clearly that the tuner was inaccurate by design and that it is only a rough guide--always listen, and whenever there is a discrepancy between your ears and a tuner, trust your ears.

Jody Stecher - 6-16-2012 at 11:33 PM

My earlier posts in this thread were strongly worded and seem to have created the impression that I have inflexible views. I regret that and apologize for any annoyance it has caused. . The force with which I wrote was rooted in sadness over the loss of microtonal nuance in American vernacular music, and a similar loss in the raga music of India, and in the shock of seeing the beginnings of the same thing in maqam music.

I don't know why you think we have a quarrel, Brian; I don't think we do. Your teaching methods are admirable and are not under attack from me. Of course different people learn different ways and of course one should use any tool available to become a better musician.

I don't understand the significance of your point that Fernand was the one to mention the tuner, not you. I addressed my rhetorical question to a quote from his post, not to one from yours. In response to requests from several forum members for help in tuning and help in finger placement I wrote that our brains and ears are better than tuners, provided we use them. You agree with that so what's the problem? We do disagree about whether what I said or how I said it amounts to dogma.

amna.al.hawaj - 6-17-2012 at 06:00 AM

If some one is having trouble with finger placement, then there is no harm in dotting the spots and using a mirror, the mirror helps to keep your eyes off your left hand.

Plenty of Oud students use this cheat and after a few hours (more for some less for others) your fingers will remember their place and once they do your ears will follow.

This all depends on how much experience you have with instruments, personally I had none when I first started Oud and my ears were not trained at all and I can tell you that if I had to use a tuner to figure out where every note was I would not have learned Oud.

Technical and in depth-information can be great, but complicating simple things like finger placement is not.

Also this is a great video for scale exorcises there is a written not for it somewhere online by Tareq Al Jundi.. Check it out it might help you develop your ears and maybe help with the finger placement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B480Uk5aN2M

Brian Prunka - 6-17-2012 at 07:57 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher

My earlier posts in this thread were strongly worded and seem to have created the impression that I have inflexible views. I regret that and apologize for any annoyance it has caused. . The force with which I wrote was rooted in sadness over the loss of microtonal nuance in American vernacular music, and a similar loss in the raga music of India, and in the shock of seeing the beginnings of the same thing in maqam music.

I don't know why you think we have a quarrel, Brian; I don't think we do. Your teaching methods are admirable and are not under attack from me. Of course different people learn different ways and of course one should use any tool available to become a better musician.

I don't understand the significance of your point that Fernand was the one to mention the tuner, not you. I addressed my rhetorical question to a quote from his post, not to one from yours. In response to requests from several forum members for help in tuning and help in finger placement I wrote that our brains and ears are better than tuners, provided we use them. You agree with that so what's the problem? We do disagree about whether what I said or how I said it amounts to dogma.

Okay, Jody-- I apologize if I misunderstood what you were getting at. I understand why you felt the need to be so insistent, I share your view on the loss of nuance in much American popular music and for that matter, classical music. Though the case is, I think, not quite as dire as you indicate once you step out of the more commercial areas--I believe we are having a bit of a renaissance with regard to subtleties of intonation. After all, ET is unnatural and people tend to revert to pure resonances when they can.

The disconnect of many people's ears is pretty profound, however, and I think one has to be careful in saying "our ears will do the job if we just learn to use them". While 100% true, the difficulty in learning to use their ears after a lifetime of neglect will cause many people to give up if not provided with additional assistance to ease the transition. Of course there is a danger in relying on a tuner that an individual will just read the tuner and not listen--that has to be guarded against.
But just saying "use your ears" without any practical suggestions on developing the ear is not terribly helpful for many people.

I don't particularly think we have a quarrel--as I said before we agree on the details. Using a tuner would never be my first (or second) suggestion, but for students with serious difficulties it can help provide a usable reference, as long as they know to use their ears foremost and to move away from the tuner as soon as they can.

cheers,
Brian

Jody Stecher - 6-17-2012 at 08:28 AM

Well said, Brian.
best wishes,
Jody

fernandraynaud - 6-17-2012 at 02:54 PM

All of this acrimony! And all this (be)moaning ... For all the talk of "ears", how is someone without a teacher supposed to develop intonation without a framework or feedback?

A good tuner is not a $5 box with yes/no lights. It shows WHERE a played note lies, not just whether it is or is not an ET "D".

Pitch falls along a frequency continuum, but display in Hz is not too informative. So a tuner can be set up for the center notes of an ET scale, or pythagorean, or a specific maqam, or whatever reference grid you want to set up, and then it shows deviation of what you sing or play from those reference notes down to tenths of a cent.

It's up to the player to at least know where the notes of a given maqam or scale are supposed to be. The tuner only shows where your notes are landing, how repeatably you can play them. I'd say that's helpful, it's feedback, and feedback creates a cycle of reinforcement. If you can't quite hear it, without confirmation you can keep missing the note a thousand different ways, and not even know it. Nobody is going to "just look at the tuner", that makes no sense.

Is someone here suggesting that such frequency measurements are inaccurate, and that their hearing is beyond what the electronics can resolve?

Or is the idea that such feedback is irrelevant? What then is suggested as a way to confirm correct intonation?

The finger placement method does not take into account the huge anatomical differences among people. If a teacher tells you "no, you must spread your fingers a little wider", that's the same kind of feedback. If you don't have a teacher the tuner can do that job, and is pretty essential to get started.

But the real issue is that a student has many options available, even if no teacher is on hand.

Jody Stecher - 6-17-2012 at 04:20 PM

Yes, tuners such as these would be helpful.

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

All of this acrimony! And all this (be)moaning ...

A good tuner is not a $5 box with yes/no lights. It shows WHERE a played note lies, not just whether it is or is not an ET "D".

Pitch falls along a frequency continuum, but display in Hz is not too informative. So a tuner can be set up for the center notes of an ET scale, or pythagorean, or a specific maqam, or whatever reference grid you want to set up, and then it shows deviation of what you sing or play from those reference notes down to tenths of a cent.

It's up to the player to at least know where the notes of a given maqam or scale are supposed to be. The tuner only shows where your notes are landing, how repeatably you can play them. I'd say that's helpful,