Mike's Oud Forums

Nylon 3rd course

Bodhi - 8-4-2012 at 02:23 AM

I am thinking about experimenting with a nylon 3rd course and would like some help choosing the gauge for the strings.

I have been using Daniel Mari strings and would like to continue with them as the main set but, which gauge of nylon should I use for a third course to fit with the set?

I decided to try this after talking with a well known luthier who felt the tension on the 3rd course of the Mari set was a little higher than the rest of the set. Does anyone else have any ideas on this?

thanks in advance
Bodhi

jdowning - 8-4-2012 at 03:03 AM

What is the string length and tuning of your oud open strings Bodhi (at A440 standard pitch)? Do you know the tension of your present third course (wound?) strings?

Bodhi - 8-4-2012 at 06:09 AM

I tune Standard Arabic:CGAdgc'
60cm scale length Barbat
The Mari set is low tension but not sure exactly how much as I can't find that information online.


here are the Mari Gauges:
1st: .025in / .625mm
2nd: .028in / .72mm
3rd (wound): .024in / .61mm
4th (wound): .029in / .74mm
5th (wound): .033in / .84mm
6th (wound): .041in / 1.03mm


here is a link to oudstrings.com with a comparison table (I don't really know what to make of it)

http://www.oudstrings.com/index.php?route=cms/article&path=3&am...


jdowning - 8-4-2012 at 04:59 PM

The comparison table is really not much help when it comes to comparing wound strings due to the variables involved in string construction.
The first and second Mari courses appear to be plain nylon as advertised. For the first course at c' string tension would be about 3.2 Kg and the second course g about 2.4 Kg for a string length of 60 cm (calculated using a Pyramid lute string calculator). So this appears to be quite a light string tension set if all the other courses are 2.4 Kg or less.
If a d third course plain nylon string is chosen with equal tension to the second course of 2.4 Kg, the string gauge would be about 0.95 mm - quite thick and about the limit for plain nylon to sound well I suspect. Alternatively for a lower tension of about 2 Kg string diameter would be about 0.87 mm.
An alternative brighter sound might be achieved using PVF strings - PVF being more dense than nylon means that the string diameter is less for the same tension. So a Pyramid PVF string equivalent would about 0.74 mm diameter or 0.8 mm for a higher tension of 2.7 Kg or 0.7 mm for a tension of 2 Kg.
All of this assumes that the Pyramid and Mari nylon and PVF string densities are about the same.

Hope that this is of some help but if anyone has other first hand data about this Mari string set and tensions involved and can offer other suggestions please advise.

ameer - 8-4-2012 at 06:15 PM

Another factor to consider is that certain Nylon strings e.g. the DAdario J series are altered such that they sound significantly better at thicknesses around 0.04" or 1mm. I have yet to find a brand of PVF that doesn't sound honky to my ear as a third course.

Bodhi - 8-5-2012 at 02:19 AM

Thats very detailed jdowning thank you. It seemed to me (just by eye) that the 3rd course would have to be around 1mm, I did find a VERY cheap set of strings from Turkey called Manol (I think) and their 2nd course was about that thick (I think it was actually a doubled up guitar string set) and it sounded very dull as a 2nd course but maybe as a third would do alright. I think I will avoid the PVF as it seems to open a whole new kettle of fish.

Thank you ameer I will look at the D' Addario at 0.04" that is 1.02mm, do you use this? Do you use the D' Addario set with this additional 3rd course? would the Single .039in/.99mm be in anyway a better option?

ameer - 8-5-2012 at 04:00 AM

I use different ones depending on the oud and the tension levels I'm looking for. Here's what I would start with:
http://www.stringsbymail.com/store/daddario-pro-arte-j4503-3rd-stri...
After that adjust thickness or brand as you see fit.

jdowning - 8-5-2012 at 12:19 PM

No question that trying various brands of nylon strings - as ameer suggests - is the way to go for arriving at that subjective 'best' sound from a nylon third for a particular instrument.

I know nothing at all about the chemistry of 'nylon' but it would appear that it can be produced in an almost infinite variety of formulations dependent upon the physical properties required. Linear density of an instrument string is an important factor in how a string performs.

Until recently, I assumed that an average density for plain nylon instrument strings was 1.08 grams/cc. The handy 'on line' string calculator developed by Arto Wilka assumes an average density for nylon strings as 1.04 grams/cc. A few days ago I carried out some tension tests on a set of Pyramid #650 oud strings in order to calibrate my string test rig - resulting in a calculated density for the plain nylon first and second courses of 1.06 grams/cc.

Mimmo Peruffo (Aquila strings) says that DuPont Tynex polyamid 6-12 is the nylon most used for plucked instrument strings. This grade of nylon has a density of 1.06 gram/cc - so I would have to guess that this is the grade of nylon used by Pyramid for their plain nylon strings. Other manufacturers may use another nylon formulation with higher density allowing smaller diameter brighter sounding strings for a given tension all alse being equal. Mimmo's 'Nylgut' formulation results in a plastic string with a density close to that of natural gut (1.30 gram/cc) brighter sounding than 6-12 nylon without some of the disadvantages of gut.

Use of a plectrum (risha or mizrab) should produce a brighter sound from thicker monofilament nylon (compared to lute strings plucked with fingertips) allowing use of relatively larger diameter strings but I am not sure what the lower tonal limits are.

So let us know how you get on with your trials Bodhi.


Alfaraby - 8-5-2012 at 02:23 PM

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning  
The handy 'on line' string calculator developed by Arto Wilka assumes an average density for nylon strings as 1.04 grams/cc.

Some explanation about this calculator & how how it aught to be used on ouds, will be more than welcome/needed.
I tried by myself & got very funny results, such as 4.4 mm, or 28.9 kgm !! :shrug:

Thank you

Yours indeed
Alfaraby

jdowning - 8-5-2012 at 04:41 PM

Goodness!
Could you post an example of the input to the Arto Wilka calculator that you used to arrive at those strange results Jamil? Hopefully the physics of oud strings are not unique to the instrument.

Alfaraby - 8-5-2012 at 09:31 PM

Oops ! Sorry ! I can't recall the mess I've made using the calculater.
Could you please show me what to do.

Thank you

Yours indeed
Alfaraby

jdowning - 8-6-2012 at 04:51 AM

I didn't use the Arto Wikla on line string calculator for the above (I used the handy Pyramid slide rule lute string calculator instead) so let's compare the results as an example. Go to :

http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/NewScalc

You will need Java (free download) to view the calculator.
Input data: pitch standard a'440Hz, pitch third course d, string length 600 mm, material nylon, string tension 2.4 Kg or 2.0Kg.

In the 'Note' box - select d
In the Octave box - select c -b
set standard a' = 440 (default)
In string length box - input 600
In string material box select Nylon

In the Tension boxes input 2.4 and 2.0 - the calculated diameters then show as 0.964 mm and 0.88 mm respectively. Also if you reset the material box to Carbon (i.e. PVF) for the same tensions the diameter results then show as 0.734 mm and 0.67 mm - all agreeing with the results from the Pyramid slide rule.

Note that the A.W. calculator can only be used for plain string calculations of uniform material and construction - not strings of wound or roped construction. Also it will only calculate tension for a given diameter or diameter for a given tension.
The input values need to be realistic and practical otherwise unrealistic results will be presented - so beware.

Calculators and slide rules are much more convenient than working from first principles with a pocket calculator. I prefer slide rules as they are accurate enough and can provide useful information like the tonal range limits of the various string materials.

A much more comprehensive software string and fret calculator is the Beier string calculator that also includes wound string data from the leading manufacturers Savarez, Pyramid, Kuerschner and Aquila. It is shareware with a free trial period or 30 tests before registration is required. I am currently trying out this program

fernandraynaud - 8-17-2012 at 01:14 AM

John, how is the Beier program working? What I did once was work backwards from published D'Addario wound string tensions and arrive at "effective" densities for the wound strings. Here are the values I got on a typical oud set.

0.024" 4540 kg/m^3
0.029" 4890
0.033" 5765
0.040" 6225

Then I would plug those into Arto's calculator. For intermediate gauges, interpolate. Well, why not? As I recall D'Addario uses a thicker winding wire than say a Daniel Mari wound string, so they have more metal/nylon fluff, and are heavier, hence more tension. They sound more metallic too. I would be interested to know how that compares to what you see with that Beier calculator.


On the Nylon 3rd for The Ameer Sanction approach, these Ernie Ball Ernesto Palla guitar 3rds look interesting, they mike at 0.040 and allegedly the black nylon is a little brighter. I have one, it's lovely, can't find the other I think I had, but I keep losing stuff more every day:

http://www.juststrings.com/ebl-1513.html

jdowning - 8-17-2012 at 06:33 AM

So far I have only tried some brief preliminary testing of the Beier String and Fret Calculator but trials are currently on hold. It is shareware but free to try for 30 attempts before registration is required. I have tried contacting Paul Beier to find out what the software costs but - so far - have had no response. The program is also supposed to sound the pitches of strings open and stopped for various fret temperaments but I cannot get that feature to work. The software can be downloaded free from here if you want to give it a try:

http://www.musico.it/lute_software/bsfc/index.html

The usual approach in design of wound strings is to work with equivalent diameters of the core material - nylon, silk, gut or whatever. I plan to post more detail on the actual calculation procedure in the recent topic 'Oud Strings, Calculations and Tuning' (soon!) so will not deal with the question in depth here.
Briefly the formula (which comes in various levels of refinement) calculates the diameter of a wound string as if only made from the core material (i.e. the equivalent diameter). This equivalent diameter can then be used to estimate tension at a required pitch using the Arto Wilka on line calculator for example (which has no restriction on diameter or tension unlike some of the commercial slide rule type string calculators). So, it is a relatively straightforward matter to calculate the equivalent diameter of any wound string knowing the outside diameter, density and diameter of the wrapping wire (round section) and the density of the core material (requires an accurate micrometer - but low cost these days - to measure the diameters).

So, for example, recent examination of an old copper wire on silk filament wound oud string measuring 0.9 mm outside diameter (of unknown manufacture) gave a calculated equivalent diameter of a plain silk string of 1.7 mm. For a string length of 61 cm at F pitch (875 Hz - 5th course, A440 standard pitch) string tension is then about 3Kg. (Of course a plain, low twist, silk string of 1.7mm diameter would not work at all at that pitch and string length - hence the wound string!)

Anyway, more on that later.

fernandraynaud - 8-17-2012 at 07:14 PM

We'd like to be able to mike a wound string and plug that into Arto's, and not have to estimate an equivalent thickness of the core material, unless there's a relatively simple formula we can use. If I have a 0.037" silvered copper on nylon fluff wound string, how do I get that equivalent nylon thickness? And is that somehow a better model than trying to use an effective density for the sandwich?

We could, with an accurate scale, weigh a carefully measured length of wound string and from the mike'd diameter and length, seen as a cylinder, derive the volume, and from that an effective density. I wonder if 1) we'd get similar values to what I got by working backwards from published data, and 2) if that would then work in Arto's over a reasonable range, i.e. would the values agree with published data?

The reverse-calculated "effective densities" I listed are (obviously) correct at the point at which they were derived. Is there any reason to believe that as we raise and drop pitch or length the tensions we get from Arto's will (or won't) be roughly correct? In other words is Arto's model usable with anything but a homogeneous material?

As I recall I checked the published tensions that were available at different scale-lengths and pitch for the D'Addario strings I was working with, and it was in the ball park.

I rather think that if you can use Arto's model on an "effective thickness" of a solid cylinder of the core filament material, it would work the same on an "effective density" model.

If that's the case, then a chart or nomograph with interpolated values can be used to get a rough effective density for other wound silvered copper on nylon string diameters, assuming that commercial wound strings are made with a roughly similar ratio of silvered copper to inner fluff at different diameters.

John, from your experience, leaving aside unusual materials, is there a huge difference in the construction of silvered copper on nylon filament guitar/oud/lute wound strings, such that one maker's 0.039" wound string gives say twice the tension of another maker's 0.039", or are the differences in tension of different oud sets largely, if not entirely, the result of different gauge strings being used in the sets? I rather suspect the latter, but can't be sure. Maybe use a small correction factor for different makers' construction?

p.s. It sure would be lovely to have a device you could use, say at the midpoint of a mounted string, and that would, by pulling the string up a specific distance, calculate and display a tension figure.

fernandraynaud - 8-17-2012 at 09:54 PM

OOps, I just looked at the D'Addario Black Nylon, and what they say is that it's mellower, not brighter, than clear nylon.
They have some blue tint "titanium" nylon strings that they say ARE brighter.
The tensions and gauges for rectified, plain, black and titanium nylon are the same.

jdowning - 8-18-2012 at 05:10 AM

The problem with wound strings is that the manufacturing process used influences the final out come as well as the relative wire and core diameter - all else being equal. The procedure for making a wound string is to rotate the core between two centres and allow the wire to be fed uniformly along the core - like the coils of a spring (see how Mimmo Peruffo does it on his Aquila strings website). The wire must be fed under sufficient tension to grip the core securely so is itself subject to compression forces tending to flatten the wire coils somewhat. So even if the same diameter wire is used, the string properties may vary somewhat between manufacturers. Of course, if the wire to core diameter ratios also differ between manufacturers (as they likely do) then measurement of the outside diameter of a wiound string will not mean a lot.
No doubt armed with all of the string design data of each manufacturer I suppose that it might be possible to put together some accurate equivalent comparative string tabulation but I don't know if this work has been done to date.

Another approach would be to measure pitch and tension of a particular wound string on a simple test rig as I have been doing in order to check the results of the 'equivalent diameter' calculations.

The problem with compound material strings is that the Mersenne-Taylor law used to calculate tensions etc. requires a string to be a uniform cylinder and of homogeneous density - hence the equivalent diameter approach.

I will show how to measure and calculate equivalent diameters of close wound strings in some detail under the topic 'Oud Strings, Calculations and Tuning'. It is quite a straight forward procedure and accurate enough to enable string tension at a particular pitch to be determined for any wound string of known or unknown manufacture.

jdowning - 8-19-2012 at 05:53 AM

As suggested by fernandraynaud, out of curiosity I have just had another look at the Beier string calculator and can confirm that it does indeed give wound string equivalents for various makers. The lower tonal limits given are for plain lute strings plucked with soft fingertips rather than a risha so the limits might be a bit lower for ouds perhaps.

Here is what the program gives as equivalents for a 60 cm third course pitched at d (147 Hz):

Plain Strings (maximum allowable diameter at lowest tonal limit)
Nylon - 0.896 mm at 2.16 Kg
Gut - 0.922 mm at 2.86 Kg
Nylgut - 0.94 mm at 2.86 Kg
PVF - 0.804 at 2.86 Kg

Wound Strings
Savarez NP NF 90 at 2.91 Kg
Pyramid 1008 at 2.88 Kg
Kuerschner VN 5094 at 2.97 Kg
Aquila D 094 at 2.97

Alternative strings may also be selected by varying string tension for a given pitch.

(No other string makers are currently listed in this program).

Neat!! I have still yet to hear from Paul Beier concerning the cost of registering the software and resolution of the lack of sound problem.


fernandraynaud - 8-19-2012 at 06:15 AM

John, can you please post the "gauge" or diameter of these wound strings from different makers?

jdowning - 8-19-2012 at 08:02 AM

I don't have any information on the outside diameters of wound strings - except for those few types of Pyramid lute wound strings that I have in stock. Perhaps that information is already tabulated somewhere?
I shall measure those strings and post the information. Perhaps others would do the same for Pyramid and other makers in order to build up a data base?

Brian Prunka - 8-19-2012 at 08:27 AM

This is an interesting topic, the choice of plain dd course certainly shows a lot of room for experimentation. I will look into the various offerings and see if I can't provide more options for this choice.

I got a chance to play Ameer's oud this week (he is a great player by the way, full of tarab and plays beautiful taqasim! Simon and Najib Shaheen were both very impressed). I thought that it sounded good, but the tension on the nylon dd still seemed too light.

I'll also talk to Aquila, with its high density, maybe nylgut could provide a smooth transition from nylon to wound. I have used it for the gg course and liked the way it was not as drastic a change from nylon to wound.

The Pyramid lute strings are also a bit darker sounding than most wound strings; this makes the wound dd course not an abrupt transition.

Regarding the Mari (and most sets): the gg course is often quite a bit lower in tension than the rest of the set. I do not know why, but it seems to sound better that way. The rest of the Mari set has tensions that are average around 3-3.4Kg tension (I don't have precise tensions for these, but I have compared them to sets with known tensions and feel this is a good estimate).

I don't care much for Mari's nylon strings, I feel that D'addario, Pyramid, and Savarez all make for a smoother transition between the plain and wound courses.

Another option is nylon wound nylon for the gg or dd courses, if anyone knows a good maker for that I will see if I can get some options available.

Bodhi - 8-19-2012 at 12:03 PM

I am supprised that we made it back to the topic ;-)

Thanks Brian, your input is greatly valued. I will still be considering the options for awhile yet so I look forward to hearing what you discover. I am also very intrested in the idea of nylon wound nylon!!! I didnt have any idea that sort of thing existed.

It is getting much bigger than I expected this nylon dd course!!!

Thanks again

fernandraynaud - 8-19-2012 at 11:54 PM

A propos nylon wound on nylon, I fell in love with a very unusual set for Classical Guitar. Thomastik KR-116:

http://www.thomastik-infeld.com/guitars/index.html

http://www.juststrings.com/toi-kr116.html

The trebles are nylon flat-wound on nylon core, the basses are flatwound silvered copper on nylon(?) rope. They are light tension yet loud and absolutely incredible-sounding on Spanish Guitars. Take a good look at that set, it's truly an innovation. For one thing they stay in tune from the moment you install them. I was very tempted to get two sets to try on an oud, but the price for a double set is a bit steep, especially for somebody who buys Daniel Mari sets, tosses the nylons and replaces them with PVF fishing leader! But for a single course it's manageable, they have the flatwound nylon on nylon TN_KOI16, 24 and 25 (0.016", 0.024" and 0.025") here:

http://www.juststrings.com/classicalthomastik-infeldguitarsinglestr...

Somebody's going to have to run the numbers. But I have a feeling these could solve some peoples' oud string issues.

p.s. I've been a devoted user of Thomastik strings for a long time, in spite of the price. For me to spend over $100 for a six string bass set, there's got to be a serious reason. For steel-string "acoustic guitar" players, they make amazing strings too:
http://www.juststrings.com/toi-ac110.html
and the related heavier sets.

Microber - 8-20-2012 at 01:49 AM

Wow Fernand, FLATWOUND !
It sounds very attractive.
Once, I 'touched' flatwound strings on the fretless bass of a friend.
Amazing and very different.

Robert

Brian Prunka - 8-20-2012 at 05:27 AM

Thanks Fernand, I will look into it.

I only use Thomastik on my electric guitars, but haven't tried them on my classical guitar (I usually get LaBella for free so I have to make an effort to buy new strings). I'll make it a point to try these.

I'll have to see about carrying some options from them. I never cared for their oud sets, but someone told me they improved them.

Bodhi - 8-20-2012 at 06:19 AM

Just hypothetically, if one was to buy two sets of these Thomastik sets (which at $55.90 are a little out of my reach) then going off of this table http://www.juststrings.com/toi-kr116.html could someone figure out the tension which that would yield on my Oud? I am a poor mathematician. The idea is really interesting to use flat wound strings on an Oud especially that they are nylon/nylon.

Microber - 8-21-2012 at 01:52 AM

It seems that the Thomastik KR116 are cheaper in Europe.
Available here for €18,40 [$22.70].
http://www.thomann.de/be/thomastik_kr116.htm

ameer - 8-21-2012 at 04:44 PM

Thanks for the kind words Brian. For reference, the third I was using was only .036" in diameter, so .038" or .040", which are more standard gauges, should feel a bit better.

fernandraynaud - 8-21-2012 at 05:57 PM

Here are the tensions I get (an hour later) for the doubled up Thomastik KR116 set on an oud:

600 mm scale tuned cc gg dd AA FF C
3.99, 3.55, 3.05, 3.1, 3.55, 3.55 Kg

615 mm scale tuned cc gg dd AA FF C
4.19, 3.74, 3.21, 3.25, 3.73, 3.73 Kg

585 mm scale tuned dd aa ee BB F#F# C#
4.78, 4.58, 3.66, 3.71, 3.79, 3.79

These are acceptable I think, though better for an Arabic oud.

The interesting rule of thumb, that I mentioned before, is that Spanish guitar tensions are about double the oud's. Steel string "acoustic" or "western" guitar tensions are about double again.

If you take a classical guitar set's tensions as published for standard scale and guitar tuning, and divide by about 1.8, you get around the resulting tensions on an Arabic oud tuned cc gg dd AA FF C.

Divide by around 1.5 and get the tensions on a Turkish oud tuned dd aa ee BB F#F# C#. So generally 2 light tension Spanish guitar string sets do make a passable oud set.

Looking at D'addario's Normal Tension "Classic set" tensions, their thin plain nylons are less dense than the norm, and so even their 0.028" high E string (that I was worried about) should work fine as a c oud course, at 3.6Kg. The second B string gives 2.9 Kg on the gg course.

Their third course G 0.040" plain nylon is actually a little light as a plain dd oud course at 2.6Kg. The Thomastik TOI-KN15

http://www.juststrings.com/toi-kn25.html

in the KR116 set likely makes a better plain DD at 3.09Kg.

On a guitar, the KR116 set sounds brighter and richer than typical nylon, with lovely sustain. I can promise you a unique sounding oud. The only reason I haven't tried it yet is the price. But, hey, some people spend that much on oud sets all the time.

As to whether nylon/nylon will hold up to a risha, with a little restraint I think so, these strings are tough. The flat-wound basses don't finger-squeak. And no "clicking" on the nut when tuning! Their tuning stability is amazing. I couldn't believe that when I strung and tuned the guitar, they were still in tune the next day. An amazing set, all around.

Bodhi - 8-22-2012 at 07:26 AM

Thanks for that fernandreynaud. I am a little hesitant to put them on at that tension as I usually opt for lower tension strings, I admit it is mostly due to paranoia that I will go to take my Barbat out of its case and find that the whole thing is smashed. :shrug:

It seems to work out over all strings at about 3.5kg which is less than the Pyramid Orange, so I suppose it would be fine. As for holding up against a risha, we will have to wait and see.

But supposing I tuned down a half step or a whole step what would the tensions be then? I really appreciate your help on this as I am not by any stretch a maths mind.

fernandraynaud - 8-22-2012 at 11:01 PM

You have to work with the scale length you have, and which I don't know. Assuming it's 600mm, the highest tension strings being the cc course at 3.99 Kg, if you tune it down to B will be 3.55 Kg, and tuned Bb will be 3.17Kg. The others should go down by a similar ratio. So you could always start out tuning it a whole tone low and see how it feels.


fernandraynaud - 8-23-2012 at 07:00 PM

Oh, I understand your concern. But isn't it the total tension that matters most, and as you say 3.5 Kg average is not unusual for an oud set. You could always use a nylon or PVF pair on the cc course if you're worried. But I found that the 0.52mm PVF that sounds and plays best is pushing 4 kg too, and I'm normally a low tension fan.

Bodhi - 8-30-2012 at 05:17 AM

Just picked up my Thomastik KR116's and am in the process of getting them on the Barbat. I will give an update about the sound in a week or so when I have played them in a little. I would love to post a sound clip but I haven't a microphone, I will see if I can get hold of one.

Thanks for the help everyone.

Bodhi - 9-7-2012 at 03:40 AM

Hi everyone,

Having had the KR116's on for a week now I will give my opinion on them.

They are a high class string with great sustain and a VERY bright tone, this is due to the steel rope used inside rather than nylon. They as stated previously stay in tune from the moment they are put in place!!!
They are a really unique set of strings, of the highest quality.

However, I do not like them on my Barbat!

The timbre of the first 3 courses are too bright, pushing the sound towards that of a Tar! Ofcourse it is not exactly the same, retaining its Oud-like-ness, but changing it enough that the intimacy of the oud is lost. I would say the low frequencies are almost altogether lost with a very mid-range sound and at the touch of the risha a "jangy/scratchy" sound which is altogether out of character for Ouds. If you use your fingers it transforms them to quite the opposite with a very warm rich tone still bright but not overbearing. As I played classical Guitar for many years before adopting the Oud as my primary instrument this was not a problem for me, for others this may not be so easy (especialy for fast passages). They also react well if you play like a Setar, using up and down strokes with the index finger but this is also a skill in itself ofcourse.

The bottom strings are very nice as they reduce the scratch of your fingers along the string and hold a note for about a 3rd longer than any other string I have used (on any instrument). This is great for a taqsim, giving a very spacy feel. With these bottom courses it is nice to have a little extra in the high registers of the harmonics.

All in all they are incredible strings but just not for me! Perhaps for others they would be perfect, who can know. It would be nice if someone else tried them and also gave an opinion.

After seeing the quality of their strings I am tempted by their Oud string set! Although Brian Prunka has a low opinion of them, He did say that they have been changed since he tried them. Has anyone else tried them recently?

I wish I could post a sound clip but as I have said, I have no Mic. so you just have to rely on my musical language:shrug: or try them yourself.;)

Hope this is informative, and thanks once more to everyone for their input and especially to Fernandreynaud for his suggestion.

Bodhi - 9-21-2012 at 05:56 AM

OK, like I have said the bottom strings are really nice but the top strings are quite 'Raspy' on the attack. So I have been thinking to replace the top 3 courses with nylon. Now my problem is matching the tensions! I have them tuned down a whole step to lower the tension generally so I would ofcourse do this with the top 3.
So for the top 3 tensions like this at standard tuning: cc 3.99, gg 3.55, dd 3.05.

If anyone could tell me what gauges I would be looking at it would help alot.

Thanks
Bodhi

fernandraynaud - 9-22-2012 at 02:19 AM

Wow, that's great you tried it, great description, and of course too bad the trebles are not exactly what you were looking for. But aren't they the most amazing bit of string technology? I would probably love them for playing with the fingers, or a very soft risha. Do you have any soft ones, like those rishas of soft white gummy-bear-like WhateverItIs? You could try to cut one out of a margarine tub lid or find something thicker. Worth a try.

On the top courses, I would think nylon would be too much of a "jump" in timbre. If you want I can send you some PVF strings to try for the top two courses.

What's your scale length? Assuming 600mm, for equivalent tension nylons you'd want 0.027", 0.035" and 0.043". But I think a 0.020" dual layer PVF would be OK for the cc and a 0.024" for the gg, which is what I use for standard tuning. I don't have a good one for the DD, but maybe with a softer risha you can leave the Thomastiks on for that one?

Also since it was the top courses that had the highest tension, if you swap those, you might be able to pull the instrument up to standard pitch. Write me an e-mail with your postal address if you want to try the PVFs. And meanwhile do try a margarine tub risha ;-)


Bodhi - 9-22-2012 at 01:31 PM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  
Wow, that's great you tried it, great description, and of course too bad the trebles are not exactly what you were looking for. But aren't they the most amazing bit of string technology? I would probably love them for playing with the fingers, or a very soft risha. Do you have any soft ones, like those rishas of soft white gummy-bear-like WhateverItIs? You could try to cut one out of a margarine tub lid or find something thicker. Worth a try.


Yes they are probably the highest quality strings I have ever seen! It is like they are from another more highly advanced world, perhaps they really are made by aliens! I think that Austrians are a pretty odd bunch so we might be on to something here. I don't even have to mention the H word.:))

As soon as i started to play them, I mean the first pleeeeeung, I could just hear this scratchy, rasping sound and thats all I ve heard for about 3 weeks:shrug: My wife at first was really impressed and liked the clarity, the sustain and the width of sound but after a week or so she also started to hear nothing but Shcrrrrrrrape, Shcrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrape. It really is a shame.
I really don't want to change the bottom strings, such an incredible sound, but the top ones have to go!

I have a few of those gummy-bear-like whateveritis thingy-mi-bobs, I think everyone got ripped off on ebay for those;), but they just don't help. The least raspy sound actually came from my thickest and stiffest risha which is made of cherry wood (not bark), it is 1mm and not very flexible but doesn't get inbetween the nylon windings on the strings so avoids the dreaded rasp, this is all fine apart from THE RISHA IS 1mm THICK AND STIFF LIKE STEEL!!!:shrug:
I think the margarine tub risha would be too thin and get inbetween the windings thus causing more dreaded rasp. However I will give it a try (when I run out of margarine ofcourse).
Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  
On the top courses, I would think nylon would be too much of a "jump" in timbre. If you want I can send you some PVF strings to try for the top two courses.

What's your scale length? Assuming 600mm, for equivalent tension nylons you'd want 0.027", 0.035" and 0.043". But I think a 0.020" dual layer PVF would be OK for the cc and a 0.024" for the gg, which is what I use for standard tuning. I don't have a good one for the DD, but maybe with a softer risha you can leave the Thomastiks on for that one?

Also since it was the top courses that had the highest tension, if you swap those, you might be able to pull the instrument up to standard pitch. Write me an e-mail with your postal address if you want to try the PVFs. And meanwhile do try a margarine tub risha ;-)


Yes my Barbats scale length is 600mm. I did decide on slightly lighter strings for the tops after using Artos thingy to try to match tensions and gauges with the intention of lowering the average tension and thus feeling more comfortable to raise the tuning to standard.
Perhaps you are right, nylon may well be too different and I would really appreciate the PVF (I will send you an e-mail shortly):D The worst rasp comes from the 1st course so it could sound nice just changing the top two.

Ofcourse I will let you know how that works out after a week or so of playing with them.

Thanks
Bodhi

P.S. I may be borrowing a mic soon so I will try and get a recording with just the Thomastiks and then one with the PVF to give a comparison.

fernandraynaud - 9-23-2012 at 06:00 AM

I just put some KR116 on my Martin D-18. Very nice, but let me tell you the funny part, and a tip, especially as you have 12 strings: LABEL THE STRINGS somehow. I couldn't figure out which is the 2nd and which is the 3rd string. The 4th was easier, because it's decidedly more shiny metallic like the bottom 2, but even so I wasn't convinced, because the 2nd, the 3rd and the 4th all have the same gauge, around 0.024". I switched the 2nd and 3rd and only as I tried to tune up, realized this was all wrong from the tensions. Unbelievable. They are so totally martian. Anyway, i think you'll be happy with PVF, you'll still have some nice brightness on the top. A lovely promo for the KR116 strings would be this one, you can really hear the incredible sustain, especially on such a small guitar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FOcHnNFzbM
I didn't realize Dominic Miller co-wrote this.

Bodhi - 9-23-2012 at 12:44 PM

You know what, I had the same problem!!! My wife and I spent hours looking at the strings and eventually figured out they were the right way round, first of all it felt comfortable, second against a dark background we could see the minute difference. I think the winding is a little different (thicker?) on the second.

thanks for the clip I really enjoyed it, plus it led me to this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA2TbQrAHBY&feature=related
its a trad. Bosnian song in the Sevdah tradition, thats basically the muslim music in Bosnia. Once the court music and part of the Bosnian Makam system which untill 100 years ago-ish was still part of peoples life. Now the Makams have been lost but the songs remain... and what beautiful songs they are. Usually/traditionally a saz would be the only accompaniment but since the 50s/60s full orchestras have been used, I am not a fan of it generally, but with the saz and this lute of Edin it is magical.

Bodhi - 9-23-2012 at 01:06 PM

I just did the maths on Artos website and a gg course with PVF at 0.024"/0.61mm equates to 2.95kg is that not a little light? I was going to go for something at 3.4kg (nylon @ 0.79mm). I'm not trying to look a gift horse in the mouth but just seemed a big jump between the 1st and 2nd courses, perhaps this is just because I am uneducated as far as string tensions go. It would make it lighter than my 3rd course. what do you think? Would that be unusual?

Brian Prunka - 9-23-2012 at 03:10 PM

The gg course is generally thought to sound better at a little lower tension, 2.95 isn't too low, IMO, but of course it depends on how it balances with the rest of the set, and your personal tastes.

Usually I feel like 10-12% less than the average tension usually works well.

That said, the "same" tension sometimes still feels different with different materials; I recently tried a .66mm PVF string for gg, and thought it felt floppy compared to a .76 rectified nylon, which should be a little less tension.

Oh, the mysteries of strings :D

fernandraynaud - 9-24-2012 at 02:02 AM

Yes, mysteries. I still don't understand why a 0.018" PVF on 600mm cc sounds more metallic than a 0.020". Both are OK, but I prefer the timbre of the 0.020". And then again my 0.020" is a slightly different material, with a slightly lower tensile strength rating, AND every oud is different. The variables are just too numerous. The KR116 set felt rather low tension on a Spanish guitar, and on a Martin with about the same scale they feel tight.

For me anything between 2.5 and 3.5 Kg on an oud can very unexpectedly feel right or wrong. With the dual layer PVF material I'm using, cc at 0.020" and gg at 0.024" is my sweet spot on several ouds of scale 600mm tuned 440. Bright/rich enough to have no timbre shift from the wound DD, and mellow enough to be lyrical.

The Thomastiks have a sound of their own that we may not want on every oud, but i'd think it's worth having those long sustaining basses on one. If the scraping on the DD course is acceptable, so you don't have to swap it (and frankly I hadn't even though of that as a problem on the trebles), but my guess is this will balance out to a very unusual but nice set.


Bodhi - 9-24-2012 at 04:59 AM

That sounds fine then. If it is generally a norm to drop tension on the gg and it works for Fernand then I'm satisfied.

The scraping would perhaps not be so evident on a different oud or perhaps someone else would not find it so disagreeable, but for my poor ears it just isn't what I want.

I look forward to getting the PVF's.

Bodhi - 10-5-2012 at 02:09 PM

Today I ran out of margarine whilst buttering (is that correct "buttering with margerine"?) my bread! I thought to myself "I need more margarine" but then it occurred to me that I need to throw away the old tub first. So, being the practical guy I am, I headed over to the bin with my empty margarine tub only to be struck by a voice in my otherwise empty mind, the voice I had never heard before but it had a decidedly Californian tinge. I thought "who's that in my head" but the voice continued talking saying repeatedly "And meanwhile do try a margarine tub risha". It went on for a good minute or two whilst I stood, margarine tub in hand, bin in front of me. So anyway I turned around went to my kitchen draw, took out a pair of scissors and cut myself a risha from the side of the tub, then getting all sort of giddy and excitable like a puppy I cut a second one from the top, as the material seemed a little thicker/stiffer.

Anyway, I doesn't make a difference to the scratchy, scratch, scratch however it did increase the metalic sound somewhat giving the string a more accentuated zzzzzing bringing the similarity to the tar even closer. I think if I raised the action and added some frets I would have a unique sounding tar-like instrument.

fernandraynaud - 10-5-2012 at 05:39 PM

I won't ask what KIND of margarine. Save those rishas, in 20 years you won't be able to get such quality plastic. And now that you're good with the scissors, it leaves a few other rubbish materials to try until PVF strings arrive. For instance, have you tried cat gut? I understand many Chinese restaurants have an inexplicable supply of cat parts.

Bodhi - 10-5-2012 at 10:21 PM

Sunflower spread from the company Pure. The best I can find at the price range £1.50. I will enquire at the chinese restaurants about this "cat gut" sounds interesting (and probably cheap). Regarding the plastic; perhaps we should all be stock piling cheap plastic tubs and the like for the foretold "great quality plastic dearth of 2030"???

fernandraynaud - 10-6-2012 at 12:53 AM

tip: at Chinese restaurant best not to ask for "cat parts", use euphemisms such as "swan". By 2030 I suspect all packaging will likely be a dirty gray and easily cracked; primo vintage margarine tubs will be used to frame precious pictures, and as ceremonial coffins.

Bodhi - 10-7-2012 at 12:04 PM

Vintage margarine and euphemisms but I'm still struggling to find a place to fit George Michael in here, it should be easier!


I wanted to post some revised tensions for the Thomastik KR116's as the one's Fernand originally posted turned out a little off

At 600mm:
1st cc 4.11kg
2nd gg 3.66kg
3rd dd 3.55kg
4th aa 3.61kg
5th ff 3.66kg
6th c 3.66kg

This gives and average of 3.7kg which is equal to the pyramid orange set.

I did some research on the Thomastik website and it seems IMO the Classic N-series flatwound CF127 have more favourable tensions:

1st cc 3.83kg
2nd gg 3.05kg
3rd dd 3.11kg
4th aa 3.61kg
5th ff 3.55kg
6th c 3.55kg
which gives an average of 3.45kg. These strings differ from the KR116's as they are top 3 nylon and bottom 3 Chrome Steel on nylon. This gives the desired Nylon 3rd and also flatwound mellowness/scratchless-ness. Even though I don't expect the wonders of the KR116's from this set this option definately interests me (and I will try them after I have tried the PVF 1st and 2nd courses with the KR116's) as I have never had a problem with the tone of nylon.

I am also interested in the Thomastik Oud strings as the 11 string set comes as standard with nylon 3rd, I have found a favourable opinion from Ghassan Bashir on this forum here: http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=709#pid4752
If anyone knows a site in europe which sells these strings please let me know as I am struggling to find them.

Now back to my KR116's, I wanted to ask if I tuned the bottom C course up half a step to C#what tension would I get if it is 3.66kg at C on my 600mm I am imagining something like 4.1kg if I am correct would this be unreasonable for the bottom string? If someone has a more accurate calculation then that would be great.
Also just to clarify the Thomastik KR116's are (all flatwound) Bottom 3: steel-plated copper on STEEL rope core and top 3: nylon wound with STEEL rope core. This I had originally thought was Nylon on Nylon before I purchased them, and I had commented on them in that respect a number of times so I thought I better state that they are not.

Bodhi - 10-23-2012 at 01:46 AM

Whilst I am waiting for the PVF strings from Fernand or waiting for Godot;-) I thought I'd give the Nylon option a try and ordered .56mm for cc and .71mm for gg D'addario gauged singles, this gives a lower tension than the rest of the strings but actually I quite like the feel like that. Also the sound going from the thomastik nylon wound steel rope dd is really quite effective. The timbre change is not as dramatic as I thought it would be and I am quite enjoying playing without the zzzzzing.

Still looking forward to the PVF.

....

Bodhi - 11-27-2012 at 05:23 AM

I wondered if anyone has ever tried these strings:
http://www.mid-east.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=RBSOUDA&eq=&Tp=
Roosebeck Arabian set. I have seen them available with an optional nylon 3rd although I cant find it on the site this time.
They are rectified nylon which is a good thing as it goes when talking about nylon 3rds.

BTW... where is Fernand? He hasn't been on for a long time...

Microber - 12-11-2012 at 04:40 AM

Hi Bodhi and Fernand,

Finally, what is the correct tension for the KR116 on a 60cm string length ?

Here is a table with the tensions you gave

KR116--|----Bohdi---|-----Fernandraynaud
| |
cc-------|----4.1------|-----3.97
gg-------|---3.66-----|-----3.52
dd-------|---3.55-----|-----3.03
AA------|---3.61------|----3.09
FF-------|---3.66------|----3.58
C--------|----3.66-----|-----3.55

I would like to give a try on my 60cm floating bridge, but I hesitate besause I'am afraid the tension will be too low.
Any opinion?

Thank you.

Robert

Bodhi - 12-11-2012 at 05:11 AM

Hi Robert,

The tensions I gave feel more correct to me. I was really not happy with the bottom strings, they really felt too tense on my Oud (not floating bridge) never mind the ZZZZZING, the middle courses felt tighter than the 3kg tensions given by Fernand, so I did a few calculations and used Arto's website (using relative densities and string gauge) came up with the above calc.'s. I cannot say 100% I am right but I didn't simply guess, I would say my calc.'s are more correct because of a few aspects.

firstly by feel and second by the maths. keep in mind I am not very mathematical so Fernand could have been right to start with, I don't know what his method to find the tensions was.

All that aside, what is an average tension on a floating bridge Oud at 60cm? If mine are correct then they have the same tensions as the Pyramid Orange etc.

Could you not tune up if that is too low tension? Just for the experience? I would recommend putting Nylons or PVF on the bottom 2 courses and eliminate the zzzzing (however, you may like it).

did this help or confuse, because I confused myself.

P.S. In the next couple of days I will post a sound clip (finally got hold of a mic.) of the thomastik KR116's with D'addario R.Nylons on the Bottom 2 so you can get an idea of how they sound. I quite like it.

Microber - 12-11-2012 at 05:47 AM

Thank you Bohdi !
The tension I have now is between 4.3 and 4.7kg, that I find a little too stiff. I'm just afraid to have too low tension.
Anyway, I'll order two set of KR116 and try it.
If I'm not satisfied, I sill have the possibility to reuse it on my daughter's guitar. So nothing is lost.:rolleyes:
Fernand, any opinion?

Robert

Bodhi - 12-11-2012 at 06:11 AM

nothing ventured, nothing gained.

hope you enjoy them.

Microber - 12-11-2012 at 07:50 AM

;)

Bodhi - 12-13-2012 at 03:03 AM

Here is the sound file:

https://soundcloud.com/prem-bodhi/nahoft-navaa
Starts on the high strings in gushe Nahoft on D'addario Rectified Nylons, ends in Navaa Forud on the thomastik dd and the ff at the end, with
that lovely phasing which they have shown quite well.

hope you enjoy and it gives a reasonable idea of how these two types of string sound together.

Bodhi - 2-13-2013 at 01:39 PM

I installed (is that a good word to use?) on my dd course a pair of D'addario rectified nylons, replacing the thomastik nylon wound on steel, and I have to say i am happier than ever with the sound. I am very pleased with the D'addario rectified nylons on the first 2 courses, they are really solid and have a good clear and long sustain, with a good mix of brightness and warmth. the same applies for the new 3rd course.

Like I say I am the happiest I have ever been with the sound of my Oud. The mix of warmth and brightness is just at the optimum balance.

I think I have come to the end of the 3rd course Journey. I think I can just play around with gauges now and see what suits my fingers best. (untill I buy a floating bridge:D)

Thanks to everyone who helped me out, for me it has been well worth it to get the sound I have now! I just hope more people will try it and then maybe sets with nylon 3rds will become more readily available.

Thanks again (especially to Fernand)

Brian Prunka - 2-13-2013 at 02:41 PM

Hey Bodhi, I am glad you found a sound you like. I agree that D'addario's rectified nylons are quite good. What gauge did you end up using for dd?

Bodhi - 2-14-2013 at 02:56 AM

I went with 0.038in thats about 0.97mm I think. Can't remember what tension it gives, but it feels comfortable, I would say on the light side.

I didn't like the Thomastiks for the top courses they just don't suit me or my Oud, the bottom courses are fantastic, they have a sustain like no other string and match up quite well with the rectified nylons. They both have a good blend of warmth and brightness.

Thanks Brian for your input.

Ararat66 - 2-16-2013 at 12:17 PM

Hi Brian and Bodhi :)

I'd like to try the rectified nylon for the top three courses of my Tasos oud. What guage would you suggest (I have Kurschner lights on right now and used the Necati Celiks previously which were very nice). Tuning - C#F#BEAD Scale length - 585 mm.

Hope this doesn't open such a huge can of worms - lovely thread btw and lovely playing from Bodhi.

Leon

Brian Prunka - 2-16-2013 at 12:43 PM

Usually .022 and .028 give good results for Turkish scale/tuning. You could go down to .027 for the aa course. For ee, I am honestly not sure . . . it is always a tradeoff between tension and tone when using thicker nylon.
I would be inclined to use the same .038 that Bodhi is using. D'addario doesn't make anything between .034 and .038, and .034 will be way too light, at about 2.2 KG.
.038 would be 2.8 Kg, a pretty reasonable tension. You could push it up to .039 pretty safely, at 2.9 Kg.

For reference, .022 give 2.9 Kg for the d' string, and .028 gives about 2.7 Kg for the a string.

For Arabic tuning, I would think that .039 or .040 would work a bit better, depending on the scale length. On a 610mm Arabic oud, .039 would be about 2.5Kg tuned to d, .040 yields just over 2.6Kg. .038 is just under 2.4Kg, which seems a bit on the low side to me.
.041 would yield almost 2.8Kg.

Ararat66 - 2-16-2013 at 12:54 PM

Thanks Brian

I'll have a think :rolleyes: and put in an order.

Cheers

Leon

Microber - 5-27-2013 at 12:04 AM

My try with the Thomastik KR116 here.
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=11094

Robert

juju - 7-29-2013 at 05:35 AM

For arabic tuning, did anyone try to use PVF for the "d string" ? What about the gauge you use ?

In the case of the 2rd course, the rectified nylon gives good results when the string is relatively thin . In my case with a 61,5cm oud, the 0,85mm doesn't sound, and the 0,76mm sounds perfect.

In the case of the "d string", if we try to use PVF, is it a good idea to follow the same logic ? To look for a thin string ?

Best.

Julien.

Bodhi - 8-25-2013 at 02:39 PM

Quote: Originally posted by juju  
For arabic tuning, did anyone try to use PVF for the "d string" ? What about the gauge you use ?

In the case of the 2rd course, the rectified nylon gives good results when the string is relatively thin . In my case with a 61,5cm oud, the 0,85mm doesn't sound, and the 0,76mm sounds perfect.

In the case of the "d string", if we try to use PVF, is it a good idea to follow the same logic ? To look for a thin string ?

Best.

Julien.



jdowning says
"An alternative brighter sound might be achieved using PVF strings - PVF being more dense than nylon means that the string diameter is less for the same tension. So a Pyramid PVF string equivalent would about 0.74 mm diameter or 0.8 mm for a higher tension of 2.7 Kg or 0.7 mm for a tension of 2 Kg."

Ameer says
"Another factor to consider is that certain Nylon strings e.g. the DAdario J series are altered such that they sound significantly better at thicknesses around 0.04" or 1mm. I have yet to find a brand of PVF that doesn't sound honky to my ear as a third course."

these comments however were based on the scale length 600mm.

I just wanted to bring this thread back to life as I have just ordered the Pyramid Yellow Label set with black nylon dd course! I will get them on, let them settle and hopefully whack out a short taqsim or something with them for you all to judge the sound (of the strings not my playing!).

Bodhi - 8-25-2013 at 02:48 PM

Leon, did you get your 3rd course changed over to nylons or...? Let us know and give us a sample taqsim :D

Bodhi - 9-13-2013 at 01:06 PM

I have had the Pyramid Yellows on for about 1 week and i have to say i have a mixed reaction to them. I have never enjoyed using Pyramid strings (granted I have only bought them a couple of times but still...) however, the copper bass strings sound great on my Oud... the black nylons however are a little dead sounding. My Oud
has a very active bass register and I think the warmer sound of the black nylons is being lost due to this and the lack of treble is not allowing them to shine to their full potential, the 3rd course nylons are too thick and the tension too low, the sound is not good at all perhaps on someone else's Oud they could work but on mine the cumulative effect is not the best it could be. Like I said the copper wound bass strings sound fantastic so I am very keen to have them again... but I nee to get rid of the top courses. I will make a recording in the next week.

My next step, I think, will be to get some D'addario rectified nylons and see how they sound with the Oud and against the copper wound bass strings. I am also going to invest towards November time in a set of the savarez copper wound with PVF trebles including a PVF 3rd course, that way i am guaranteed the warm, silky sound in the basses and the extra brightness for the trebles! I can imagine this would work but I am no expert in PVF as I have never used it. Lets see how this goes :)

Thomastik Classic N series (CF127)

alchemy - 12-21-2014 at 12:36 PM

Hi guys, sorry to resurrect this thread, but as you've been talking deeply here about the Thomastiks KR116, I would like to ask you: have you instead tried the Classic N series (CF127)? They come with flatwound chrome steel basses and the normal plain nylon that we're used to for trebles (and we can have a nylon 3rd course). Maybe it's a good option for getting flatwound basses?
Thanks for any information about them.

fernandraynaud - 12-22-2014 at 06:18 AM

I'm a big fan of the KR116 set for guitar. It's specified as a Spanish guitar set, though I use them on my steel string Martin D18. I thought they would work for the bass strings of the oud. The tensions as i recall looked ok. Spanish guitar wound strings from a "light" set are about the right gauges and tensions for Arabic oud. The scale and pitch are different of course, but if you crunch the jumbers you will find that the 4th course of a light classical guitar set will be about right for the 4th course of an Arabic oud. It makes for a usable desperation strategy if you only have access to guitar strings. But of course it's a rough guide and specifics still need to be worked out case by case. The N series I thought was roundwound but anything could be tried.

I don't remember who, but someone here tried the KR116 bass strings. As i recall he reported that the scraping sound of the risha on the windings was unacceptable. Let's see, sorry I'm too sleepy now.

BTW My method of approximating silvered copper wound string tensions was to start from tensions supplied by d'Addario at specific scale, gauge and pitch. Then using Arto's to calculate an effective mass for a given gauge silvred copper wound string. Then interpolating for the sightly different gauges we have no d'Addario data on, giving us what looked like plausible effective masses, and finally using the "effective mass" as the Mass in Arto's to get tension at any specific oud scale and pitch.

Feeding the results back in different conditions confirmed it was a usable approximation. D'Addario is now releasing a new Web applet tension calculator that was "two years in development". What I did check using that applet suggested that my old "effective mass" method was pretty close.

I didn't have a milligram scale back then to actually weigh small lengths of wound string but now that I do we could also try that approach if necessary.

alchemy - 12-22-2014 at 12:59 PM

I'm interested in measuring methods, still have to sit and read more deeply and maybe make some calculations myself.

With regards to the Thomastik Classic N strings, I forgot to mention that they come in two flavors: roundwound (CR127) and flatwound (CF127) basses (with plain nylon trebles always). I was suggesting this one as I think I've read that that the scrapping sound was on the nylon wound trebles of the KR116 that didn't sounded ok on the oud. That's because I'm considering keeping those nylons if I like them. Otherwise, would need to mix with another set of trebles.
More info on the Thomastik Acoustic Guitar catalog.

alchemy - 12-22-2014 at 01:07 PM

I've made rough calculations basically dividing tensions in the CF127 set by 1.8 (so they're for a 60cm scale oud, tuned to arabic standard).

cc 3,83 kg
gg 3,05 kg
dd 3,11 kg (plain nylon)
AA 3,61 kg (wound)
FF 3,55 kg
CC 3,55 kg

That throws an average of 3,45 kg, which I think is around what is accepted as "normal" for the oud?

Thanks for following up on this.

alchemy - 12-23-2014 at 11:33 AM

I just put strings from CF128 for the dd course (wound, not nylon in CF128). I don't like it so far, way tooo dark, even though I like darker sound. It's like the string is muted somehow. I will try some of the others, specifically gg and AA, and see.