Mike's Oud Forums

Nahawand maqam, its true intonation ?

charlie oud - 12-5-2012 at 05:19 AM

Hello oud folk
I'm a huge fan of Nahawand and have heard it played with varying microtonal styles.
Can you please comment on a frequent intonation, I feel I am hearing, in terms of authenticity. The notes are the Western pitch followed by my comment in brackets as played in Nahawand.


C (the same)
d (the same)
e flat (slightly flatter)
f (the same)
g (the same)
a flat (slightly flatter or
slightly sharper)
b flat (the same)
or b natural (very flat, almost b half flat)
c (the same)

Marina - 12-5-2012 at 02:35 PM

Nahawand is supposed to be minor, without quarter tones. :cool:

ALAMI - 12-5-2012 at 02:57 PM

Your ears are right, in traditional performance Nahawand on C has a slightly flatter E flat.
In fact Nahawand is trickier than just being a minor,
When your intention is to emphasis the Hijaz on G jins of Nahawand, the A flat and B natural are treated (exactly like the Eflat and F sharp in Hijaz on D): the A Flat is slightly Sharpened and B natural slightly flattened.
But when you are playing a straight Nahawand on C followed by Nahawand on G, the B becomes regular flat but the A flat is extra flattened a bit as it is now part of a jins Nahawand on G.
Simple :D
In fact Maqams are just the Aristocracy, jins (Ajnas) are the real population of Maqams.

PS- For Farhfaza, who is supposed to just be a transposition of Nahawand on G, the above does not apply (I don't know why)... Some say because Farhfaza usually likes to play with Ajam nearby so the flats and sharps have to behave...

Brian Prunka - 12-5-2012 at 03:42 PM

"But when you are playing a straight Nahawand on C followed by Nahawand on G, the B becomes regular flat but the A flat is extra flattened a bit as it is now part of a jins Nahawand on G."

I think you mean Kurd on G . . .

Jody Stecher - 12-5-2012 at 05:07 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  
"But when you are playing a straight Nahawand on C followed by Nahawand on G, the B becomes regular flat but the A flat is extra flattened a bit as it is now part of a jins Nahawand on G."

I think you mean Kurd on G . . .


Or Nahawand from F?

Jono Oud N.Z - 12-5-2012 at 10:54 PM

There is the extra possibility of Hijaz on F - Nahawand Murassa, (which may have possibly evolved from a modulation to Saba, which was an old modulation from Rast).

http://www.maqamworld.com/maqamat/nahawand.html#nahawand-murassah


This features in this famous piece:
(Turkish sheet).

This is very effective when played as a short modulation near the end of an improvisation which is very common.


[file]25043[/file]

[file]25042[/file]

ALAMI - 12-5-2012 at 11:12 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  
Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  
"But when you are playing a straight Nahawand on C followed by Nahawand on G, the B becomes regular flat but the A flat is extra flattened a bit as it is now part of a jins Nahawand on G."

I think you mean Kurd on G . . .


Or Nahawand from F?



Sorry, my mistake, you're right Jody, I meant Nahawand on F And not on G.

charlie oud - 12-6-2012 at 02:26 AM

Thank you for these replies. Alami, I am grateful for this confirmation and the comment on the maqam falsely assuming aristocratic authority is refreshing to hear as I have come to find also that the Ajnas hold all the secrets. I now approach Taqsim more in this way, only 3 notes only at a time may be 4, as I improvise, create and try to move through their relationship with each other. Marina, I'm sorry but Nahawand is very far away from Western minor scale due to the slightly flatter E flat and the presence of Kurd on G, Hijaz on G (both of which slightly flatten or sharpen one of their degrees and then Nahawand on F again flattens the A flat as Nahawand C does to E flat. It is a very microtonal maqam, I said 'almost' half flat referring to the very flat b natural when Hijaz jins forms part of Nahawand delivery. When I began playing I took the C minor approach but over time realised this is perhaps the biggest mistake you can make with playing and understanding Nahawand, Thanks for the piece Jono and to Jody and Brian for your input.

Ararat66 - 12-6-2012 at 02:56 AM

Hi Charlie

Great to see and hear you (and your M Moussa oud) the other day :-) 'can of worms' and 'kettle of fish' springs to mind when discussing such things - it is what makes the universe. Forget special string theory - think ajnas !!!

Cheers

Leon

Brian Prunka - 12-6-2012 at 07:55 AM

The problem with comparing maqam tuning to Western scale tuning is problematic, since there isn't a single Western tuning to use as reference.

For instance many people when singing or playing variable pitch instruments (violin, cello, certain wind and brass instruments) will play their thirds and 6ths in just intonation, while the piano and guitar have fixed equal-tempered pitches.

The Western minor scale has particularly confusing tendencies:

The pure tuning of the 3rd and 6th degrees is considerably higher than the piano tuning, while the tuning of the major 7th is lower.

The tuning of the 7th, however has another issue, which is that string players like to exaggerate the sharpness of the interval, so you may hear it played very high.

The piano has a very low 3rd and 6th, and a high 7th. The oud intonation should not be much lower (about 5ยข) than the piano Eb or Ab (though slightly), but is much lower than the conventionally sung minor third. Of course the Ab is higher in a Hijaz tetrachord, but their intonation varies over geography and time--are you taking about an early 1900s Turkish hijaz, or an 1940s Egyptian hijaz, or a 1960s Lebanese Hijaz?

The Arab Hijaz as now practiced is nearly identical to the non-tempered intervals in Western music, though the B is still even slightly lower. In Turkish music, according to the theory, they are identical to non-tempered Western intervals (though Turkish musicians may alter them in practice). If you are used to the "piano hijaz" then yes, the intervals are much closer together. If you listen to very old recordings, the intervals were played much closer than they usually are today.

And of course, all of this intonation is variable for expressive purposes . . .

In general, I think Nahawand is best described as Nahawand C + Kurd G and Hijaz G. While Nahawand F is a possibility, the dominant is G and is the more logic place to describe the second tetrachord. Nahawand Murassa being an exception as noted by John.

PS. Alami: I think you are right about Farahfaza: in order to get the Bb Ajam to have the correct low third for Ajam, the Bb has to be played a bit higher than in Nahawand. Because of the tendency to modulate to Ajam, it probably tends to stay higher in Farahfaza. Essentially you are tuning the Bb to match the open D instead of the open F.

Rambaldi47 - 12-6-2012 at 03:37 PM

Very interesting discussion but would it be possible to post some recorded examples
of this varying intonation?

Thanks.

adamgood - 12-6-2012 at 08:52 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ALAMI  

PS- For Farhfaza, who is supposed to just be a transposition of Nahawand on G, the above does not apply (I don't know why)... Some say because Farhfaza usually likes to play with Ajam nearby so the flats and sharps have to behave...


Ferahfeza is such a different makam from Nihavend. One way to play it is such: basically make a complete makam Acemasiran, making a stop on the note Acemasiran. But make it short, you need to keep going to Yegah for your karar.

But Ferahfeza can take little tastes of buselik around the neva pitch or hicaz around dugah depending how you want to look at it. Similar to Sultaniyegah.

adamgood - 12-6-2012 at 08:55 PM

Also I haven't seen anyone mention that Nihavend likes to touch on ussak around the neva pitch, leading up to the gerdaniye pitch. In Arabic notation that would be a microtonal Ab, not friendly to piano.

ALAMI - 12-7-2012 at 12:33 AM

Much interesting indeed, thanks Brian and Adam for the insights.

While in Turkish music theory the Maqam language and coma notation kept things scientifically expressed, it is also interesting to give a look at the terms used by Arab musicians to express those micro tuning finesses, in fact in practice, they never accepted the decisions of the 1932 convention, and in the absence of official words, they invent their own, very subjective and sometimes very funny.

They use the term "pull it" and "push it" or more exactly "tighten it" and "loosen it"
In the Lebanese accent they say: sheddel-HA and rakhil-ha.
So for the Eb of Nahawand they'd say "Rakhil-ha" and for Eb of Hijaz "sheddel-ha".

When I started learning, a musician was trying to explain to me the difference between the Segah of Bayat and the Segah of Rast. He said: when you play the Segah of Bayat, you should feel the taste in your mouth, it is the taste of a fat Segah fried in lamb grease from Hama and covered with sugar syrup from Tripoli while the Segah of Rast is a grilled and salty fresh fish... And that's how I got it.
Bon appetit..

spartan - 12-7-2012 at 02:39 AM

Quote: Originally posted by adamgood  
Also I haven't seen anyone mention that Nihavend likes to touch on ussak around the neva pitch, leading up to the gerdaniye pitch. In Arabic notation that would be a microtonal Ab, not friendly to piano.


the famous Zikrayati makes such a modulation .
http://www.issaboulos.com/archive/scores/dhikrayati.pdf

Maybe its not so common in classical ottoman pieces, but in Arab music I think a modulation in Beyati is possible and catchy in every pitch!

==========================================
About the third note in Nahawand maqam in Arab music there is an extended essaie on Scott Marcus Arabic Music (pages 200-210) .
===========================================

In my humble opinion intervals or intonations etc. are not the main target. They are used on a way or another to express the right feeling (or taraab) of a maqam.
I guess that's the reason that the 3rd note of Nahawand (Eb) is played a komma lowered than the european pitch. There is a more dramatic or romantic feeling when you play like this and that's more close to the Nahawand feeling I have in my mind and soul.

nice thread by the way, great posts from everyone

spartan - 12-7-2012 at 02:57 AM

Quote: Originally posted by ALAMI  


When I started learning, a musician was trying to explain to me the difference between the Segah of Bayat and the Segah of Rast. He said: when you play the Segah of Bayat, you should feel the taste in your mouth, it is the taste of a fat Segah fried in lamb grease from Hama and covered with sugar syrup from Tripoli while the Segah of Rast is a grilled and salty fresh fish... And that's how I got it.
Bon appetit..


That's the best definition I ever heard !
didnt know you put sugar syrup in lamb though....

Jono Oud N.Z - 12-8-2012 at 03:40 PM

Classic as description indeed!:cool:



How about if you are playing with a qanun or buzuk etc?

I have been playing with a Persian setar player for example.
(Esfahan is like Nahawand with a neutral sixth).
The Persian setar also matches the old fretting of the Ottoman tanbur and the old (eastern) Arabic tunings pre 1700's.
Hijaz used to have a neutral second and a major third.


[file]25081[/file]

One more question:
When is the 'regular' Eb used?

The Eb (in C key) used to be called Nahawand, now - Kurdi.
(The second in Hijaz was Ed - Segah).





spartan - 12-9-2012 at 02:15 AM

I guess the main problem is the 3rd minor interval .
the C-Eb interval (or anyone else)

I think that a 3rd minor "naturally" will be a little lower than the european one. Scott Marcus call this 3rd minor minus a komma (based on many arab musicians and on Pythagorean theories)

So I personnaly prefer the 3rd minor lowered and thats the case of Nahawand particularly.
When I play Kurdi maqam I play the kurdi pitch as the european one.

Maybe it's wrong I m not sure, but for me it's a matter of taste, the feeling that I get from Nahawand
===========================================
Another problem is that in Arabic music (dont know about the Persian though) the pitches from Dugah are : Dugah-Kurdi-Segah-Buselik.

So when we play with a qanun or lavta or buzuq someone have to copromise!


ALAMI - 12-9-2012 at 05:48 AM

Quote: Originally posted by spartan  


So when we play with a qanun or lavta or buzuq someone have to copromise!




This the case where everybody has to settle for "just falafel" :)

Jono Oud N.Z - 12-9-2012 at 01:25 PM

Excellent point, and LOL :cool:

I guess that the voice, oud, bowed and wind instruments have the most freedom to colour the jins appropriately to get the most effective / expressive moods for the maqamat.