8 built so far.
Except for the soundboard, fingerboard, pegs & combined floating-fixed upper bridge, it's all carbon fiber one piece oud. Very light, still extra
strong, as carbon fiber is.
No action adjustment ever needed, no cracks caused to the bowl because of accidents, no paint issues, no polish or refreshing polish .. etc.
I met the luthier last weekend. Philip Shaheen from Tarsheeha, Upper Galilee, (yes, yes, a relative of Simon's). Remember this name
pretty well.
Very interesting nice young man & a gifted player as well. We had a very long exciting debate about the sound making process.
The young man got the talent, knowledge, open mind, passion & desire to learn & benefit from anyone ... even from me.
See, listen & tell us all what do you think !
Yours indeed
Alfarabyameer - 12-17-2012 at 03:01 AM
Interesting sound. I'll have to try and meet him next time I'm in the area.Multi Kulti - 12-17-2012 at 03:48 AM
I have nothing against innovations and i would love to play it...but i think it deserves another name because Al Oud means "WOOD" and thats the magic
about this instrument..the beauty of the wood..
NikosAlfaraby - 12-17-2012 at 03:56 AM
I totally agree Nikos !
I suggest "Carboud" or "C FOud"
Yours indeed
AlfarabyALAMI - 12-17-2012 at 06:49 AM
It sounds very oudy to me, after all the main elements that create the sound: the face, braces and fingerboard are still wood.
It is practical to have the option of a rugged, weatherproof oud for travel or unfriendly environments.
Could also be interesting to sell the one piece fiber bowl, neck and pegbox to other luthiers that still can produce their own sound. mass producing
it can open a way for more affordable high quality ouds.
Would be interesting to experiment with a full fiber oud in one piece like those cellos: http://www.luisandclark.com/ Microber - 12-17-2012 at 11:05 AM
It sounds very oudy to me, after all the main elements that create the sound: the face, braces and fingerboard are still wood.
I agree with you Alami. It also sounds good to me.
I think I would prefer a good fiber glass oud than a bad wooden oud.
But, yes, wood is so nice !Bodhi - 12-17-2012 at 11:44 AM
To be honest I think were looking at the future of most instruments there!
I certainly wouldn't say no.jiggo - 12-17-2012 at 01:24 PM
Very nice craftmanship. I appreciate innovation but still my opinion is that to this day wood instruments have the best sound.SamirCanada - 12-17-2012 at 04:17 PM
Bravo.I think it was very tastefully done. I wonder why the use of a saddle bridge.
In my experience it has a effect on the sound it is helpful to amplify but I prefer regular bridges. It must take some great skills to work the cf
that well just pay attention to the details around the pegbox etc. About it being affordable, I thought CF was rather expensive dubai244 - 12-18-2012 at 02:23 AM
I guess, this is a turning point for oud making and we are witnessing, from this new invention, new era of oud making. I am windering how it would
sound if the oud made from fiber plus double sound board ?!
Alfaraby, thank you very much for high-lighting this new invention and share it with us.
Thanks fadel - 12-18-2012 at 03:47 AM
hi
thank Alfaraby
i see like this oud from bahrain
but this oud good sound
thank u jdowning - 12-18-2012 at 07:46 AM
Of course building musical instruments from reinforced plastics is not new as some lutes, guitars and bowed instruments were being made this way
decades ago.
Nevertheless it will be interesting to see how this latest development for oud making turns out and whether or not the instruments will gain general
acceptance compared to traditional wooden ouds. This was not the case for plastic lutes made in the 1970's as the market demanded traditional
construction but then CF ouds, hopefully, may be a more successful niche market.
One thing to mention is that although Carbon Fibre reinforced laminated plastics are strong they are also brittle and may fail under relatively low
impact loadings (i.e. if an oud is accidently dropped onto a hard surface - yes it can happen!). Failure of the laminates under these circumstances
can be catastrophic.
Also as Samir correctly observes that the materials are expensive (not to mention the cost of the molds and manufacture). So it would be interesting
to know the current cost of the CF ouds as well as the overall weight of a completed instrument compared to an all wood oud? SamirCanada - 12-18-2012 at 09:27 AM
that's what I thought John.
Another thing i did notice, the face of the oud is attached to a wooden rib which is then attached to the carbon fiber bowl. This is really clever,
that way the conection from the face to the back is wood to wood. Alfaraby - 12-18-2012 at 03:57 PM
Thanks all for the ongoing interest in this thread.
Philip is still trying to find some time to register and become one of us. For the time being, he wrote to me as follows:
"ANSWER TO jdowning AND TO SamirCanada
"although strong, they are also brittle and may fail under relatively low impact loadings"
This should not happen when you keep the proper ratio between carbon and epoxy, what I did in this case. Moreover, the geometry improved at the box by
adding longitudinal tunnels along the oud curvature. It strengthen the box and helps to absorbs the shock
at the time of impact at the same time (sorry I had to think about it beforehand ☺.
"materials are expensive (not to mention the cost of the molds and manufacture)"
Yes it is, the process is also complicated and not cheep. But I built it in order to be affordable. This issue is being currently discussed
with our friend Jamil (Alfaraby). I am not worried about the price, announcement will come soon.
Carbon Weight: 570 gr
Total Weight: 1100 – 1150 gr
"Innovation never stops"
Be ready for more surprises in the near future.
Thanks everybody for this objective discussion and support. I will gladly accept any criticism you'd come up with.
Truly yours
Philip Shaheen" baseelo - 12-19-2012 at 12:05 AM
Wonderful job Philip!!
I think that the best invention that any oud maker could come up with is a pegbox/pegs that minimizes the possibility of the srtings going out of
tune. This is an issue that is important to any oudy. So please put it on your future agenda of things to do!!Luttgutt - 12-19-2012 at 02:58 AM
Well done!
This Might be a good solution for people who has to travel a lot with the oud.
What are the dimention? String length? Would this be available in turkish size?
Good luckAlfaraby - 12-19-2012 at 11:07 AM
585 mm, Turkish size.
I told Philip he should have done it 61.5 like most of the Arabian ouds. He said: the next 20 k$ !
OMG ! how expensive these experiments are !
I doubt if he's up to Turkish & I mean Turkish tuning, not size. At least not in the coming few years.
Yours indeed
AlfarabyLuttgutt - 12-20-2012 at 03:47 AM
Thank you alfaraby!
Some photos
Alfaraby - 12-23-2012 at 01:07 AM
For those who haven't seen the video, here are some photos of the CF ouds of Philip Shaheen
Hope you like them.
Yours indeed
Alfaraby
[file]25217[/file] [file]25219[/file] [file]25221[/file] [file]25223[/file] [file]25225[/file] [file]25227[/file] [file]25229[/file]stos - 12-23-2012 at 08:31 AM
hello!
could we maybe have an idea of the prices of thos ouds?
thanks!Alfaraby - 12-23-2012 at 10:00 AM
It's still hard to price these ouds. The costs are very high due to the ongoing experimental process. I may dare and say that with no profit
whatsoever, it could easily reach somewhere beyond 1500 $. Once the luthier concludes his experiments, buy large quantities of CF, make as much pieces
as he wishes on the mold, the costs would be reduced, and the price (+profit) would be about 2000 $ +- !
This is only my personal guess/hunch, not based on what he could have said on this issue.
Time would tell !
Yours indeed
Alfarabyfadel - 12-29-2012 at 10:19 AM
Bravo to Philip Shaheen, I find his carbon fiber oud a most welcome addition to the world of ouds.
Personally, I have no problem calling it an 'oud', anyone buying or selling one would of course indicate it was a carbon fiber oud; perhaps calling it
something else may even detract from it's professional qualities, anyway let's leave that to Mr Shaheen to decide, n'est pas?
I've seen and heard carbon fiber resonator guitars made by the NZ company Beltona, they are excellent quality, much lighter than the traditional
metal-bodied style resonator guitars, and well respected by other guitar players into this style of playing delta blues, slide guitar or similair. No
one has a problem calling it a guitar, though Beltona makes several models and each model has it's own name, like 'Southerner', etc.
As far as weight, I never considered the oud a heavy instrument!
One question that comes to mind is would the carbon fiber oud's sound mellow or improve at all with time like a wooden oud, or would it stay about the
same as when new?
regards, MWDr. Oud - 12-30-2012 at 09:50 AM
Years ago I collaborated with a composite engineer/oud player to develop a carbon fibre one piece oud. I sent him a 3D CAD file I used to document the
1910 Hanna Nahhat I used for the Oud Construction book. The file was converted to a CAM program that produced the plug to build the mold for the oud
body, neck and pegbox all in one piece. Unfortunately I cannot find any pictures of the oud, and I lost contact with the engineer after he
unsuccessfully tried a carbon fibre face on the body - it sounded awful. Carbon fibre can be designed to produce sound waves similar to wooden
soundboards, and has been done in the violin family for several years. http://www.allthingsstrings.com/Instruments/SELECTION-PURCHASE2/A-B...
A carbon fibre soundboard has not been done yet, to my knowledge. This oud by Mr. Shaheen only proves the case that the back is only a structural
element and only provides a chamber for low frequency sound wave reflection. The sound is fine, but it comes from the wooden face without any affect
from the carbon fibre.
The finite element analysis (FEM) model looks impressive, but in fact wood cannot be accurately modeled because of its anisotropic characteristics.
This means that wood is not a homogenous material due to the variation in density, ring spacing, moisture content, etc., so it cannot be modeled with
any conclusive accuracy by FEM. Modeling an oud face is rather moot anyway since there is thousands of years of experimentation by oud makers that has
only shown that the face design is as variable as the material. This is the real key, many designs work, it's the fine tuning to match the
characteristics of each individual piece of wood that makes an oud sound great, not some specific design.Dr. Oud - 12-30-2012 at 09:54 AM
I think that the best invention that any oud maker could come up with is a pegbox/pegs that minimizes the possibility of the srtings going out of
tune. This is an issue that is important to any oudy. So please put it on your future agenda of things to do!!
The problem is not the pegbox or pegs, (unless you have poorly fitted pegs). The strings, the wood face and the body all expand and contract even with
small changes in temperature and humidity, so there is no solution to the problem of tuning. Otherwise it would have been solved for other stringed
instruments long ago, ya think? The best you can do is be sure your pegs are properly fitted so they don't slip, and keep your oud in a climate
controlled room and never take it out, 'cause it will surely change pitch.
my first post
Philip Shaheen - 1-2-2013 at 12:16 PM
I have no doubt that Dr. Oud and many more people have thought about building a carbon fiber oud. It is expected from scientific and industrial
aspects that it was only a matter of time till this happens. Bringing an idea to this level with such product is totally a different story.
I'm a die and mold engineer, cutting tools designer, a process innovator, craftsman and oud player, and above all an open-minded person who appreciate
the expertise of other people and get to learn from them. Hard work and patience is paid off at the end.
Wood of course, is "anisotropic" material (means that mechanical properties varies with the wood grain direction), but it is possible to simulate the
behavior of wood when you have the right knowledge, reference academic researches made on wood, scientific tools and the proper "pilot" behind the
wheel.
Moreover, what you have seen at the movie was the 4th vibration mode out of 6 vibration modes that me and my friend (PhD expert in sound and vibration
analysis) have done to compare the effect of different bracing pattern on the natural frequencies for two different sound boards, we kept the same
wood properties but changed the geometry (one must agree that this is possible) by the way !! We've considered the orientation of the wood grain for
the bracing too.
The contribution of the body to the sound ? A much more talented man than my self "Antonio de Torres Jurado" the famous guitar maker has said "back
and sides contribute very little to the sound quality"… assuming that the oud body have a major roll for the sound quality, what do you think would
happen with the oud sound when you hold it close to your body… I think it will be blocked by the human body.
I thought it will be most appropriate to adapt this concept for my oud…. It is fine with me if you choose to use a different technique.
Baseelo point of view: I believe this was a good hunch, when the wood is sensitive to weather condition, while carbon Fiber is not. When you deal with
100% wood oud you usually get 100% response to climate. With 60% carbon in the oud you only have to worry about 40% of the problem.
Pegs/pegs house, the angle and stiffness of the peg house are also very sensitive to tuning control.
I'm not a scientist, just an oud lover who is motivated by a charisma for innovation, a smile and thrill of other oud passionates when they meet this
oud. I'm expecting an objective criticism that promotes to improve the product.
I refuse to accept any credit that is not mine, but maybe I've succeeded to convince more forum members that this achievement deserves respect.
I truly believe that any support of the experienced forum members will contribute to bring this product even for higher levels.
Wish you all the best
Philip Shaheen fernandraynaud - 1-2-2013 at 03:04 PM
The concept that the back and sides of string instruments play no role in the timbre does not agree with experience, or current luthier thinking.
Tightly hugging my ouds sure changes the sound. Carbon may be usable, but it will somewhat affect the timbre, for better or worse, just as Ovation
guitars have a specific sound. It's not clear that it would solve the tuning issues.
The problem of tuning stability has been even more daunting when many more strings are involved, and has been attacked for centuries. The modern piano
has overcome it with an all iron frame, not too practical for an oud. But short of that, even instruments made of synthetics exhibit shifts, because
even minimally humidity/temp reactive materials stretch. The changes can then be magnified or reduced by specific geometries.
Many harpsichords have been built with different materials to improve tuning stability, with poor results. Only John Challis' all-aluminum design has
worked well. On the oud it's doubtful that what is, on a good instrument, a minor tuning drift, would disappear just by using a synthetic bowl. The
strings alone play a significant role.
And it's an interesting fact that long style clavichords, made entirely of wood, are generally very stable, while other instruments in the same room
go desperately out of tune.
It is believed that it's due to the way different wooden members in the design work against each other, creating a self-compensating geometry. I have
a Zuckermann like that.
I bring that up because it suggests that, perhaps by adding some cross-members, or specific bracing, an oud could be made much more stable than usual,
without using metal or synthetics. It's a design more than just a materials issue, I think. Some existing (all wood) ouds are more stable than others.
As to the all-carbon fiber oud, if the whole bowl/neck/pegbox is all one piece, I suppose it might be rigid enough to help. But in practice (with the
other parts and strings) does it really hold tuning perfectly?
Such an oud could probably be mass-produced, and there's room for different approaches, though people are attracted to wood. Not just ouds. Electric
guitars could be made of anything, yet most players always come back to wood. No offense intended, your carbon ouds can be wonderful on their own
merits. SamirCanada - 1-3-2013 at 05:17 AM
A question for Philip,
When playing the carbon ouds you have made, do you feel it in your gut? I ask this because when playing a good wooden oud, often you can feel the
vibrations coming from the bowl into your belly.
to me, this is the indication that the back of the oud plays a part in the sound however minute. Perhaps by absorbing vibrations or not absorbing them
as much depending on the species of wood or now depending on the material wood vs carbon.
From the videos you posted, it seems like the oud projects very loudly. much louder than a traditional oud. The ouds do sound new so it will be
interesting to see how the carbon oud sounds with a top that has been aged a few years. I find from experience after a oud reaches 7-10 years you can
really start to hear a difference in the sound.
As for tuning, mechanical violin "peg heads" and other devises have been invented to hold the tuning. My opinino is that its fair to say the problem
lies just as much with the strings which constanly strech no mater what. There might be a point when you feel they are being relatively stable (in a
stable atmospheric enviorment also) but you just may no longer notice they are streching however they surely they are constantly streching as long as
tension is applied to them. Perhaps different string material would solve this issue but not without changing the tone of the oud we have come to
apreciate. Philip Shaheen - 1-4-2013 at 08:28 PM
Answer to Samir
"When playing the carbon ouds you have made, do you feel it in your gut? " – NO
Actually it was the first remark I had from an oud player a friend of mine, he said "I feel that the sound is moving away from me, could not feel it
in my body".
I also didn't notice it my self, even when I tried a lot of times with 4 ouds I have for the past two days. I think this feeling is individual, maybe
it can be measured, let me think about it…. hussamd - 1-10-2014 at 05:25 AM
Any updates on this topic? I watched the clips and the oud sounded wonderful. I have mixed feelings on this topic since beauty is one integral piece
of this instrument (to me at least), along with a rich voice. The fancy woodwork on some ouds is breathtaking. Personally I would rather see the
nice wood grain so if I get yelled at when playing it, I can at least use it as art
.
