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Do maqamat have to start on a specific note?

Lysander - 8-26-2013 at 01:34 PM

Sorry for the really n00b question but I'm trying to get my head around this.

I'm playing a lot of stuff in Nahawand at the moment. Now, I have a Turkish oud so I am playing it from the third open string, which is an E. Now, as far as my understanding goes this would be Nahawand on D on an Arabic oud, but for Turkish tuning everything is a step up, so anything on D gets transposed to E.

So, if you are playing Nahawand from the E string [D in Arabic], is it still called Nahawand or is it called something else? And if you are playing Hijaz - which is normally played from D, is it STILL called Hijaz because on the Turkish tuning everything is a step up?

Hope that makes some sense.

Lysander - 8-27-2013 at 01:42 AM

Right, looks like I'm about to answer this for myself. I imagine the lack of replies was due to the annoying basic nature of the question!

But anyway, I can see that maqamat generally have to start on the same note though they can be transposed to certain different tonics.

For instance, Nahawand can be played on D as Buslik, Nawa Athur can be played on D as Hisar, and Hijaz Kar can be played on D as Shehnaz etc.

The only thing I have a question about is Nakriz, which starts on C and can be transposed to G. Can this maqam be played on D?

Khalid_Salé - 8-27-2013 at 03:05 AM

Technically any maqam can begin on any note, but conventionally speaking certain notes are frequently used. What is more important is consistency of tone centre and tone-spatial relationships; you wouldn't switch this around during a performance. For example, technically any note can be the RAST note (I mean the note, not the maqam), but once you have established what that note is, you don't change it around during the performance. So if you are playing in the usual 'Arabic' tuning of RAST = C, DUGAH = D and so on, you would stay within that framework. It is very helpful to learn the traditional names of the notes and think of the maqams in terms of those names, rather than ABCDEFG or Do-Re-Mi etc, which is not the system under which the tradition developed. It all becomes much easier to understand then. Once you know that, you will know the difference between a 'transposed' maqam and just playing the same maqam in a different key or tuning (they are not the same thing).

Danielo - 8-27-2013 at 04:18 AM

Hi,

actually this question is not basic at all !

There is indeed a maqam resembling Nahawand and with a tonic on D called Busalik, but it is not the same maqam. The seyr (which notes are emphasized in which order, the typical modulations, etc....) is different, and there is also supposedly some microtonal discrepancy of the second degree.

If you play Nahawand on D the same way as you would play it on C I would still call it Nahwand.

The same applies to the other examples in your list. Shehnaz an Hijaz Kar are a little bit different from each other (this specific case is analyzed in Signel's book)

Dan

Quote: Originally posted by Lysander

Right, looks like I'm about to answer this for myself. I imagine the lack of replies was due to the annoying basic nature of the question!

But anyway, I can see that maqamat generally have to start on the same note though they can be transposed to certain different tonics.

For instance, Nahawand can be played on D as Buslik, Nawa Athur can be played on D as Hisar, and Hijaz Kar can be played on D as Shehnaz etc.

The only thing I have a question about is Nakriz, which starts on C and can be transposed to G. Can this maqam be played on D?

maqams and taqsims

sandranis - 8-27-2013 at 06:39 AM

Hi, all

thanks Angelo for your explanations, and for everything you've been doing to help those who start learning the OUD: as far as your answer concerning the NAHAWAND is concerned, I think you shoud add there is only one NAHAWAND and it starts on the note RAST( DO fourth string, 1st position with finger 3). When it is transposed on another fundamental or tonic( the root), it must be indicated: NAHAWAND on D, G or whatever. THe NAHAWAND on SOL YAKAH is often called SOLTANI...The main concern is that the separation between the notes is preserved, now am I right or wrong? Your are a living diamond because your help is valuable to everyone on this forum...I will soon ask for your help again, best regards, sandranis :applause:

Lysander - 8-27-2013 at 07:35 AM

OK thank you everyone for your answers, so basically it is not 'wrong' to play a maqam on a different tonic to its original, just unconventional esp when it comes to playing with others. I can see that now. I also see that there is a slight difference between Hijaz Kar and Shehnaz... there is a lot of conflicting information about these things on the internet!

I think the best thing, for me anyway, is that the open string remains the tonic which is why, on a Turkish oud, it is better for me to start the maqam tonics on C#, F#, B and E and I use E most commonly at present.

My other question is this: when you say e.g. "hijaz on E" would you be going by the note or the placement? Since on an Arabian oud this would be on a D [Turkish is one step higher].

Jody Stecher - 8-27-2013 at 08:31 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Lysander

I think the best thing, for me anyway, is that the open string remains the tonic which is why, on a Turkish oud, it is better for me to start the maqam tonics on C#, F#, B and E and I use E most commonly at present.

Why do you say the open string is the tonic? How would that work for Rast or Segah etc?

Lysander - 8-27-2013 at 08:42 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher

Quote: Originally posted by Lysander

Why do you say the open string is the tonic? How would that work for Rast or Segah etc?

I read that's how it should be. Is it incorrect?

Jody Stecher - 8-27-2013 at 11:58 AM

It often happens when modulating from one makam to another that the second string ("sol" in arab oud music) is the point of departure from the makam which was played first. In that case one is playing a phrase in a new makam from an open string.

Or suppose you are playing makam Hijaz. That is normally begun from an open string (not counting the leading tone ). One may play it in a different key starting from a different open string. That is different from playing *all* makams from an open string.

The sound that is one octave below the open highest string (course) is called Rast. Many makams start there.

Maybe try this: Look at Turkish oud playing on youtube. Do a search for Nihavent. Do you see anyone playing with the tonic at an open string? I think it cannot be found. It is always the fourth course, and usually the third finger. The position is Rast. If that course is tuned to B then the absolute pitch is D.

Do the same for Arabic oud and Nahawand. Do you see anyone playing from a starting point that is anywhere but the position Rast?

Jody Stecher - 9-6-2013 at 10:52 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Lute

In the old method yes they do.

The question is not whether they do, or whether they may, but whether they must. What I really had in mind re youtube was

1) taqasim. Songs, in contrast to taqasim, will always be pitched according to the singer's voice. Sure, a song, may be described as —for instance —Nahawand from Sol rather than Farahfaza or something else. But the option to move a maqam from the conventional position is hardly the same thing as a rule that says that conventional playing positions must never be used. That view makes no sense to me. If the conventional position were never used how in the world could it be called "conventional"?.

2) presenting readily accesible evidence that for maqamat whose normal tonic is a closed position on the oud, the majority of players will not transpose the tonic to an open string as an opening and closing position. As I said in the previous paragraph, this is what makes "normal" normal.