Mike's Oud Forums

armenian oudist tearing it up in the 1920s

hartun - 11-14-2013 at 07:00 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSBBZkIsD6k&noredirect=1

adamgood requested the lyrics of this a while ago here on the forum but he never posted it so i wanted to share

its in 7/8 and its a type of melody called "laz bar" in armenian (meaning laz dance)

majnuunNavid - 11-14-2013 at 09:55 PM

This is fantastic, thanks for sharing.

PaulS - 11-14-2013 at 11:53 PM

Isn't this Hicaz Mandira? Or part of it anyway
I don't know the words but it was a tune composed by one of the Ottoman Sultans I think.

This is my favourite version
http://youtu.be/UnG_OMOhcTo

Branko - 11-15-2013 at 06:59 AM

It is High Aghchg, Tchar Aghchg not Higaz Mandira attributed to Andon Efendi Kiryazis.

Branko - 11-15-2013 at 07:15 AM


http://sarkilarnotalar.blogspot.com.au/2011/05/hicaz-mandira.html

Jody Stecher - 11-15-2013 at 07:49 AM

An Ottoman Sultan composing a song in Armenian? That would be extraordinary. Stranger things have happened though. Thanks for the clip, that is some powerful violin playing.


Quote: Originally posted by PaulS  
Isn't this Hicaz Mandira? Or part of it anyway
I don't know the words but it was a tune composed by one of the Ottoman Sultans I think.

This is my favourite version
[url]http://youtu.be/UnG_OMOhcTo
[/url]

hartun - 11-15-2013 at 08:33 AM

well, it would not be unusual at all for armenians to take a preexisting turkish song and put armenian lyrics to it. i have several by this same artist in fact. i.e. "darildin mi cicim bana" which m. douzjian sings as "hokvov siretsi". not to mention the greek version, "hariklaki".

Paul, its very interesting, your video of Hicaz Mandira for the first 15 seconds is extremely similar to the song I posted. However the other clip posted by Branko doesn't have that same little bit of the melody. So I think the guys in the first video are just vamping in 7/8 until they start the actual Hicaz Mandira at 0:15. I don't think Hicaz Mandira has words.

How do they have the same melody as "High Aghchig Char Aghchig"....because "High Aghchig" isn't an original song its based on the Armenian folk dance "Laz Bar" which is also known in Turkish as "Laz Havasi". This is one of those songs that go back a long way in both traditions and its unable to tell who had it originally. There are old folk lyrics in both Armenian and Turkish (however the "high aghchig" lyrics were probably written by douzjian himself, they don't seem to be folk lyrics to my ears although i could be wrong) Laz Bar might even be an actual adaptation of a Laz melody (Laz for those who don't know are a people living on the coast of the black sea in northeast turkey who are muslim but speak a language related to georgian). The dance "Laz Bar" i believe is intended to be "in the style of the Laz" hence the name.

The unfortunate thing is I don't even know the names of the musicians. Ian Nagoski who put this song out on CD claims the oudist is M. Douzjian (who is certainly the singer) but I don't know if he was just assuming that or he had some evidence. In any case that still doesn't tell us who the violinist is. And we don't even know M. Douzjian's first name. Nagoski's research turned up a "Mgrdich Douzjian" in New Jersey at that time but its unclear whether its the same guy.


John Erlich - 11-15-2013 at 10:08 AM

I don't know about the origins of this Laz Bar, but here are two sheet music versions (no 1/4 tones used - I play this song on D bayati myself). This song is well-known in the Sephardic Jewish world, with Ladino (Judeo-Spanish) lyrics, as "La Comida La Manyana" ("The Morning Meal"), e.g.: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXJ9J5Jx4Jw



John Erlich - 11-15-2013 at 10:52 AM

Hijaz Mandira is also a great song. Here is it in Turkish notation.

[file]29365[/file]

John Erlich - 11-15-2013 at 10:53 AM

Hijaz Mandira in Arabic/concert pitch notation.

hartun - 11-15-2013 at 11:45 AM

john, the melodies are SLIGHTLY different. la comida la manyana seems to be the same melody as "hamsi koydum tavaya"
sung here by pontic greeks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nla3__TL3yM
(again the connection to pontus) the kef time band has a recording thats partially the same melody as well.

Brian Prunka - 11-15-2013 at 02:31 PM

Although it seems a lot of people play the second part of the Hijaz Mandira as Ajam on Nawa (Acem/Neva), it seems to me that it is intended to be Rast.

This confusion comes up a lot because the Turkish Rast is very close to the Arabic Ajam. Listening to Necati Çelik's version, it sounds like to me like he is playing Rast.

Rast Nawa is a much more typical modulation from Hijaz . . . Ajam is a weird change.

Maybe Adam Good or Mavrothi can chime in with their thoughts . . . ?

John Erlich - 11-15-2013 at 02:55 PM

Hi Hartun,

Thanks for the link! I would chalk up the differences between the Sephardic/Greek versions on one hand and the Armenian/Turkish ones on the other mostly to style and Westernization.

Unfortunately, none of the versions of "La Comida La Manana" on YouTube are in maqam bayati; all are Westernized.

Peace out,
"Udi" John

adamgood - 11-15-2013 at 03:04 PM

Hopefully the attachment is coming through...here's my chart for the song "High Aghchig Char Aghchig" that I marked up using standard Turkish Makam notation.

Again, Harry (Hartun) I thank you for the lyrics!!!

Adam

PaulS - 11-15-2013 at 09:45 PM

Thanks everyone. I learned a lot from this discussion!

PaulS - 11-15-2013 at 09:58 PM

Thanks everyone. I learned a lot from this discussion!

reminore - 11-17-2013 at 03:56 PM

hi hartun - do you have a reference for hokvov siretsi? ie. a recorded armenian version - it would nice to have it in a repertoire! if you have the lyrics...that would be great!

Ararat66 - 11-18-2013 at 09:07 AM

The double cd this comes from is really worth getting hold of it is called 'To what strange place'

Leon

hartun - 11-18-2013 at 06:00 PM

i agree with leon....the liner notes are sometimes incorrect but he did what he could with VERY little information....but the stuff on that collection "to what strange place" (actually a triple CD) is great, a bunch of different styles and ethnicities of the ottoman empire represented.

reminore, theres no version of hokvov siretsi currently available it's only on 78. from the top of my head it has like a different nakarat and some different instrumental sections as opposed to the common greek or turkish versions. as recorded by douzjian its not really a dance song its a kind of listening record.

the lyrics are as follows (again I had already transcribed them for my own use. I actually sang this at a wedding with my own jerry rigged arrangement) again the e with a thing over it is the "uh" sound essentially pronounce as the turkish dotless i.

Kadifa pazmots choonim
Kěrbaněs dasnots choonim
Kezme zad, yar, havada
Oorishin hed kordz choonim
Aghvorěs, sirooněs akh bězdig aghchig sirděs gě vari
Aman Asdvadz hokis gě vari
Aghvorěs, sirooněs akh bězdig aghchig sirděs gě vari
Aman Asdvadz hokis gě vari

Sevdan akh-vakhin dagě
Hamě kaymakhin dagě
Yes kez kaghdoog siretsi
Varě ojakhin dagě
Aghvorěs, sirooněs akh bězdig aghchig sirděs gě vari
Aman Asdvadz hokis gě vari
Aghvorěs, sirooněs akh bězdig aghchig sirděs gě vari
Aman Asdvadz hokis gě vari

Aghchig yegoor mer odan
Menk yenk yegher boy fidan
Yes kez kaghdoog siretsi
Inchoo hanetsir meydan?
Aghvorěs, bězdigěs akh siroon aghchig sirděs gě vari
Aman Asdvadz hokis gě vari

the first verse is actually kind of clever "kadifa pazmots choonim" is just a translation of "kadife yastigim yok" which is well known from the song kadife...and then they needed something to rhyme with pazmots so he came up with "dasnots" (10 dollar bill) so its "i don't have a velvet pillow, i don't have a 10 in my pocket, aside from you, sweetheart, believe it, i have nothing to do with anyone else" you will note several other turkish words although pronounced with an armenian accent (i.e. kaymakh instead of kaymak)

the other verses seem to be old armenian quatrains, floating verses you can find in many songs. the chorus is a loose translation of the turkish. i should say "based on" the turkish.

so my assumption is that these lyrics were written in america, probably by douzjian himself. although "dasnots" could technically mean a 10-kurush or 10-para ottoman coin, but the whole thing just has an american ring to it.

i'm a singer so that's why i'm pretty much obsessed with lyrics and have ~150 armenian songs transcribed.

if i digitize hokvov siretsi i'll post it.

adamgood - 11-19-2013 at 07:50 AM

Quote: Originally posted by hartun  

i agree with leon....the liner notes are sometimes incorrect but he did what he could with VERY little information....but the stuff on that collection "to what strange place" (actually a triple CD) is great, a bunch of different styles and ethnicities of the ottoman empire represented.


By the way, Canary Records ("To What Strange Place" label) just put out some more great recordings on "To What Strange Place B​-​Sides: more songs of the Ottoman​-​American diaspora, 1909​-​29"

Available to download here:
http://canary-records.bandcamp.com/album/to-what-strange-place-b-si...

It's great, I ran to download right away. Ian Nagoski is putting out some treasures.

hartun - 11-19-2013 at 06:04 PM

damn thats sweet thanks adam. note track 13 is kemani tatyos' famous huseyni saz semai