Mike's Oud Forums

1889 Baseel Altonji restoration

Dr. Oud - 1-13-2014 at 08:39 AM

I thoiught youse guys would like to watch this one...Finally on the bench. Step 1 - reglue the tail block.



[file]29977[/file] [file]29979[/file] [file]29981[/file]

[file]29983[/file]

Alfaraby - 1-13-2014 at 09:29 AM

Label:

Number 123
Work of Baseel Al Tonjy The Carpenter in Aleppo
Year 1889


For the record: the label says Tonjy not Totanjy, like I first thought it's a typographical error, unless someone would correct us saying his name is Al Tonjy !

Richard: Is this the same oud we've related to here: http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=6286&pa...

Can't wait to see how a skeleton would come back to life :)

Yours indeed
Alfaraby

Faladel - 1-14-2014 at 03:01 AM

Dear Dr.Oud and Alfaraby :

the label says NOT Tonjy and not Totanjy , The label says ALTONJI , great family in Aleppo and that a component was our neighbors . There are several families Altonji in Aleppo.

Alfaraby - 1-14-2014 at 03:04 PM

Your 300 post came right in time, doc. Thanks for the correction.
I first thought Baseel Altonjy is a relative of a famous Qanoun maker called Gabriel Totanjy. Seems I'm wrong.

Long time we didn't hear from you يا أبا نادر

Yours indeed
Alfaraby

kathyviola - 1-15-2014 at 01:35 PM

Richard,

That oud is beautiful. What do you have planned for it? And what kind of wood is it made of? I'm also curious how you got it. There must be a story there.

Kind regards,
Kathy

Dr. Oud - 1-15-2014 at 04:04 PM

I plan to restore it and see how it sounds. I have 2 Nahhats (1902&1927) and a 1924 Suliman Haddad that I would sell any 2 of them (lot$) and keep the leftover. They are all about equal in tone. The Tonjy oud may enter that group or exceed them as a keeper, or if it doesn't make the cut it will go on the block when restored (lot more$). It is a walnut back & maple neck, but too dirty to be sure at this stage. I acquired it in a barter for some repair for Ronny Andersson of Switzerland. He also sent me an aged Lebanese cedar soundboard that I may use if it is long enough. This body is way long and narrow, much like some Roufan Nahhats of the same era.

Dr. Oud - 1-15-2014 at 11:14 PM

Next step is to rejoin the separated back. The separation is also sprung out of alignment, so I plan to glue it in sections, bending then gluing as I can match the edges. The ribs are very thin, from 1.5 to 2mm so the curve of the joining ribs must match exactly. The edges are also very dirty, having been separated for many years, so the old dirty glue will be cleaned off. A little hot water from my glue pot and scrape away with my trusty Xacto #11. I then cleaned off the top surface so the tape will stick when I bring the edges together and viola! The "walnut" was transformed into maple. There is a missing piece of rosewood purfling right in the center of the first section to be glued, so it must be replaced. I looked through my box of rib scraps...nope, then checked out my can of shorter purfling pieces....nope, then in my cubby hole drawer of even smaller pieces, and oh boy! Not only a close color match, but the right width as well. I little bending to match, trim the ends and prep the matching rib edges, then prime the rib and patch with hot hide glue. (Rosewood should be primed because of the oils in the wood), now I'll have to wait 'til tomorrow to glue the it in.

[file]30039[/file] [file]30037[/file] [file]30035[/file]

bulerias1981 - 1-16-2014 at 01:57 PM

Wow, I wonder if that's real Lebanese cedar!! Incredibly rare if it is.

Dr. Oud - 1-16-2014 at 02:01 PM

the back ribs are too hard for cedar. maple/poplar/some kinda hard light colored wood. Ronny did send me some Lebanese cedar, at least he said so.

Dr. Oud - 2-4-2014 at 11:47 AM

The back is glued together, with some additional filling and leveling yet to be done. The big separation took three separate glue operations, with some heating and bending at each stage to match the curve of the edges. It looks like birch, or possibly English walnut or some similar nut wood, with rosewood separation strips. The next step is to re-attach the body to the neck block.

The edge tiles have an unusual profile, stepped up to 3.3mm at the soundboard edge. Only a couple of small fragments of the face remain, measuring 2.3mm, so the edge tiles actually rose 1mm above the surface of the face. Hmmmm?

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muhssin - 2-4-2014 at 07:49 PM

@Dr. Oud,
where on earth did you get this old one?

Dr. Oud - 2-4-2014 at 09:48 PM

I bartered for some repair for a client.

muhssin - 2-5-2014 at 09:59 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Dr. Oud  
I bartered for some repair for a client.


that is what I call LUCK:applause:

Dr. Oud - 2-6-2014 at 01:38 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Alfaraby  
....
Richard: Is this the same oud we've related to here: http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=6286&pa...
Alfaraby

Yes, unfortunately the photos were deleted in that thread, so...

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Dr. Oud - 2-6-2014 at 05:08 PM

The edge lamination is interesting. There is a thin strip of rosewood on top of the rib, extending underneath the face. The ogee shaped edge tile is on top of this strip, then another strip is between the edge of the face and the edge tile. The top of the tile is 1mm above the surface of the face. Its really a nice way to capture the face edge and protect the top of the face edge as well, doncha think?

Dr. Oud - 2-13-2014 at 05:12 PM

I could not glue the back down on the neck block with the neck attached, so I removed the neck from the block, then glued the back on. No fixture, just cleaned the joint with hot water, applied a liberal coat of hot hide glue and let it set up. The next day I attached the rib ends by ironing them down one at a time on the neck block using a small craft hot iron. The glue joint will later be reinforced on the inside with parchment paper. There is a lot of patching to be done. Next I'll start to build up the missing 3 ribs.

[file]30493[/file]

Dr. Oud - 2-16-2014 at 09:39 AM

After the neck block is re-glued to the ribs (what's left) it shows a severe twist in the body. This is probably due to being split apart for so long, things warped and this is the result. I could make a new neck block, but it might be just a matter of twisting the body back into alignment. In the same way that ribs are bent, the body could be neated and forced in the other direction plus a spring back factor to re-align the neck block with the tail. (I hope) If not I can make a new neck block, but the ribs will be off I think.

[file]30532[/file]

SamirCanada - 2-16-2014 at 03:25 PM

This isn't a restoration... More like a resurrection :)

Was I in your shoes, to the dumpster it would have gone

Dr. Oud - 2-16-2014 at 07:23 PM

send me your broken ouds, any maker, any age. I will even pay some compensation depending on their condition. No instrument belongs in a dumpster. My roommate had an old Mexican plywood standup 3/4 base given to him. He dismantled it to get the back, which was painted with Mexican girls and a guy wearing a fez. He screwed the back to the wall, saved the neck w tuners and broke the rest up and put it in the trash. He didn't think of asking me about it. Such a loss, many old plywood basses are much sought after by jazz bassists and certainly this one would have brought a good price from a Mariachi bassist. Stupid.

Dr. Oud - 2-17-2014 at 05:40 PM

So here's my back twister fixture in my usual crude but git er done style. The tail is clamped to a block that's glued to the plywood plate. The torque arm is screwed to the neck block and clamped on the high side, and some wedges under the other end to twist the back to level with the tail block. The steam is supplied by my shop espresso machine. I just hope the back bends before the glue releases and all the ribs spring apart!

[file]30534[/file]

Dr. Oud - 2-18-2014 at 10:48 AM

and OILA! The neck and tail are aligned now at least in one plane. There will be some more bending of the body to align the top surfaces front to back.
The left rib is distorted and the overall width has shrunk, so I spread the sides apart to a reasonable width and to form a smoother outline curve. (this will also bring the top surfaces more in alignment). Then I traced the curve of the good side into a board and cut it out. The flattened rib was heated and clamped in the cleat and left to cool down.
There's a lot of patching, leveling, gluing and lining the inside with new parchment paper to reinforce the seams. The old paper lining has dried out and is not contributing much.
There are 3 missing ribs to replace as well.

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Dr. Oud - 3-22-2014 at 02:50 PM

Well I'm stuck in sprung rib hell. There' so much damage, distortion and missing pieces I think it'll take a year to just fix the back. Oh Man! The process: clean and re-glue each rib seam one at a time. After gluing, Scrape off the old rotted paper liner strip and replace with new parchment paper. Finally, using a small craft iron, flatten the sprung section to level the back surface to minimize any leveling sanding. Yes, Martha, it will have to be sanded, patina or not, it just is too distorted to align the seams. Then there's 3 missing ribs, an one side there seems to me not enough tail block for the top rib, so that'll have to be built up. Oh Man!

Dr. Oud - 4-4-2014 at 06:28 PM

Measuring the width of the bowel it seems much too narrow to me (13 in /33cm). In addition, the neck block top surface is way out of alignment with the tail block top surface. So I decided to re-shape the back by clamping the bowel top to bottom and squeezing until it looks more like I think it should (15in/38cm). While I doing that there is a distortion of the rib in the lower left bout that needs correcting. I traced a cleat from the right side and cut it out of a block of redwood. After clamping I heated the top ribs and the clamped section with my heat gun and will keep it clamped for a few days. Hopefully it will spring back to around 14in/35.5cm wide. There's still a lot of patching to do, as well as re-aligning the seams and replacing the old paper liner strips.

[file]31131[/file]

journeyman - 4-11-2014 at 06:05 PM

Doc, if you can restore this oud you should try your hand at raising the dead! The suspense is killing me. -Roy

Dr. Oud - 4-12-2014 at 07:33 AM

Roy, maybe you'll be next! Seriously, this will be a long process, there are so many things to do to get the back restored, I haven't even counted all the problems. Each repair takes a day to cure the glue, and I can't do more than one at a time in order not to disturb the fresh repair, so be patient, chill, take a pill, whatever.

journeyman - 4-12-2014 at 05:58 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Dr. Oud  
...... chill, take a pill, whatever.


...and miss all the excitement? Nah, I'll just have a pint once in a while and watch this unfold. Seriously though, I would never have thought it possible to restore something in this condition. Looking forward to seeing the finished product. -Roy

Ronny Andersson - 4-13-2014 at 10:13 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Dr. Oud  
the back ribs are too hard for cedar. maple/poplar/some kinda hard light colored wood. Ronny did send me some Lebanese cedar, at least he said so.


Great Richard!
It will be very nice and as always very interesting to follow one of your projects.
I bought the Lebanon cedar from a French instrument maker who has purchased a stock of tonewood in the Middle East many years ago.

Dr. Oud - 4-13-2014 at 10:54 AM

Thanks for the tonewood, Ronny. I have done some patching and decided to re-line the inside seams to stabilize the bowel. This will allow me to flatten the spruing seams with my iron to level the outer surface. Then I will begin to add the missing ribs.

Dr. Oud - 5-5-2014 at 04:54 PM

I added one rib, patched some holes and have concluded that the body has been stretched out too much. The top surfaces of the neck and tail block are misaligned front to back, and the ribs are turning in at their top edge. The width unclamped is about 14in/35.5cm, not too narrow, but those top edges and the the top surfaces won't do. With the clamp applied to align the top surfaces, it's 15in/38cm not too wide, and the top edges of the ribs are in a better position.

back-unclamped.jpg - 483kB [file]31316[/file]

Dr. Oud - 5-27-2014 at 03:34 PM

Here's the back together. Some ribs alignment and stain to match yet to be done, but it's together at last. I added 3 ribs, but the top rib ended up rather short just to make it level. The tail block remnant indicates that the original top ribs were pretty slim anyway. I had to trim the neck block down to align with the tail, so this is the result. Not really that unusual for arabic ouds. Oh well.

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Dr. Oud - 6-18-2014 at 03:32 PM

Calling all Calligraphers :wavey:
I'm starting the face and would like to make a shams (rose) with a center medallion of the maker's name, similar to the Nahhats for example. So if there is an artist among you who can design the name into a connected medallion ->
< Baseel Altonji >(in arabic of course) 20 - 30mm (1-1 1/4in) diameter.
Please submit graphic files in AI, .jpg, .doc, pdf, whatever to me, richard@droud.com. The selected entry will get credit on the label, or maybe some compensation or a discount toward purchase or service from Dr. Oud, plus my undying gratitude..

Faladel - 6-19-2014 at 07:56 AM

Dear Richard

send you the grafic

Dr. Oud - 6-19-2014 at 07:57 AM

Ok, now I have a dilemma (or is it a conundrum?) The Altonji body length is 560 mm. Now I have a brace layout from a 1880 Ikwan Nahhat, the closest in time and space to the 1889 Altonji. The Ikwan body is shorter (520mm), so I calculated the ratio and located braces and bridge accordingly. So now the length(Altonji) from neck block to the bridge is 470mm. Well the neck is only 198mm, or 35mm short of the 1/3 ratio to locate a fifth at the body joint. Relocating the braces to make the 1:3 string length ratio places the bridge too high in the face. So should I proceed with the calculated brace locations? Lengthen the neck by 37mm? (not gonna happen). Shorten the body by 88mm? (just kidding). I think this oud is just gonna have to be outside the 1:3 ratio box. Oh well.....

Dr. Oud - 6-19-2014 at 08:14 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Dr. Oud  
Calling all Calligraphers :wavey:
I'm starting the face and would like to make a shams (rose) with a center medallion of the maker's name, similar to the Nahhats for example. So if there is an artist among you who can design the name into a connected medallion -> ....

I received a fax sent to my email inbox, unfortunately I could not open the fax (banned content) and have no return address for the sender. Please submit files as native graphic images, no faxes, please.

Alfaraby - 6-19-2014 at 03:17 PM

Is this good enough ?

Yours indeed,
Alfaraby



[file]31828[/file]

jdowning - 6-19-2014 at 05:01 PM

Isn't this old oud an example of one based upon the ancient proportion of neck length being 1/4 of overall length (rather than the neck length being 1/3 string length)? This would make a string length of about 67.5 cm. Some earlier discussion here:

http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=6286&pa...


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Dr. Oud - 6-19-2014 at 06:19 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Alfaraby  
Is this good enough ?

Yours indeed,
Alfaraby



Very nice, thank you so much.

Dr. Oud - 6-19-2014 at 06:21 PM

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning  
Isn't this old oud an example of one based upon the ancient proportion of neck length being 1/4 of overall length (rather than the neck length being 1/3 string length)? This would make a string length of about 67.5 cm. Some earlier discussion here:

http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=6286&pa...


I believe so. With the Ikwan brace layout the string length is 668mm. Thank you for you expert info.

Alfaraby - 6-19-2014 at 08:31 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Dr. Oud  
Very nice, thank you so much.


Most welcome.
HQ ai, psd, pdf files shall be sent to you shortly.
Good luck :)

Yours indeed
Alfaraby

Dr. Oud - 6-20-2014 at 06:29 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Alfaraby  
....

Most welcome.
HQ ai, psd, pdf files shall be sent to you shortly.
Good luck :)

Yours indeed
Alfaraby

No need my friend, the image you sent is .jpg and already scaled and printed. I may modify the calligraphy somewhat to connect some fragile sections, but it is beautiful, thank you. I may modify as well the outer design to a design similar to the Ikwan, just to be more contemporary with its time period. I will credit you on the repair label for all your excellent design.

Alfaraby - 6-20-2014 at 10:34 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Dr. Oud  
I may modify the calligraphy somewhat to connect some fragile sections


Don't mention it at all pal.

OMG ! Please don't ! You may modify the design as a whole, but don't touch the calligraphy. Any small change shall make a big difference.
Pay attention this's Allepo not Damascus, so no Nahat design is really welcome there. This should be strictly kept in mind.

Any how, here's the famous Nahat Maqamat rose with Tonjy's name.
Hope you like this as well.
If you need more, I'm here.
Are you going to cut it manually or by laser ?

Good luck either way
Yours indeed
Alfaraby

[file]31834[/file]

Dr. Oud - 6-20-2014 at 11:08 AM

I like the Maqmat design very much, although I might delete one of the rings around the center, I mean it looks redundant, no? I will cut it manually, laminated bone on wood. Thanks again and for the local iinformation. Is the Maqmat design acceptable in Allepo? I would be grateful for your guidance to select an appropriate design.

jdowning - 6-20-2014 at 11:51 AM

Hi Richard
The original images show a small hole in the neck block that I originally thought might have been a nail hole (for attaching the neck + glue - as in European luthier practice). Yet with the neck removed the hole on the other side - of much larger diameter - suggests that the neck is attached with a wooden dowel that (for some reason) does not extend the full depth of the neck block? Perhaps the small hole then is just a vent to allow surplus glue to escape when attaching the neck?
Just a point of detail only of significance to luthiers
Thanks

Dr. Oud - 6-20-2014 at 02:30 PM

The dowel hole does go clear thru the neck block. I don't know why a nail in the neck, perhaps a misguided attempt to repair a loose neck?

Alfaraby - 6-20-2014 at 02:34 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Dr. Oud  
Is the Maqmat design acceptable in Aleppo?

No Sir ! The maqamat design has been adopted and/or adapted by Abdo Usta: to the core Damascene maker & design. The same as to the famous Ottoman Toghra, though rarely seen on Aleppo's ouds also. (look at George Hayek's 1912).
I gave a try because you mentioned Nahhat and the period of time they both worked: late 1800's.

To be honest, I'd set aside both designs and stick to less "sophisticated" design, such as the attached George Hayek's design from the early 1900's.

Herewith is a 100% Aleppian design.
Take a close look.

I'd dare to suggest laser for the precision it assures and the time it spares. Use this time for another great restoration of yours.
His beatitude monsignor Abdo George Nahhat himself used to hire craftsmen to carry out his rosettes and inlays. So feel free with this issue.

P.S. As to your reward offer, thank you kindly, but I make these designs gratis, on the house, especially when you're 8000 miles away; but I'd accept this oud in particular :) :)

Yours indeed
Alfaraby

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Dr. Oud - 6-20-2014 at 08:22 PM

Thank you for your generosity and effort, my friend. I like the Allepo 2 design and will incorporate it as best I can. I still want to hand cut it or if I could find some cheap skilled labor I'd use them. Laser just leaves me with a bad feeling, its too sterile. i like the lopsided, asymmetrical funky look of a handmade rose. To me the rose is like a signature, and if it's done by a machine, it loses the personal aspect. A handmade rose imparts a feeling of commitment of the builder. I've seen molded roses as well, just awful.

I don't have any of those ouds to give, and with all respect, I'm not sure I would trade one for a rose design.....:shrug:

Alfaraby - 6-21-2014 at 11:54 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Dr. Oud  
I don't have any of those ouds to give, and with all respect, I'm not sure I would trade one for a rose design

Where's your sense of humor ? :rolleyes:
Come on Doc. ! did you really take it seriously ?
On regular basis, I'm the one who gives & not vise versa :cool:
Good luck with the rosette. I agree that hand made rosettes are precious, per se.
Please show me the final product before putting it on.

Yours indeed
Alfaraby

jdowning - 6-21-2014 at 03:45 PM

Richard - you say that the dowel hole goes clear through the neck block yet in your image of the hole viewed from the neck side of the neck block I do not see daylight at the other end.
Also Ronny's original image of the neck block, viewed from the inside of the bowl, seems to show only a small hole (that I took to be a nail hole) - not the end of a dowel poking through?

Now I am confused!

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[file]31864[/file]

Dr. Oud - 6-22-2014 at 05:57 AM

it is the end of the dowel hole, not all the way through after all, but daylight at the end of the hole.

Dr. Oud - 6-22-2014 at 06:00 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Alfaraby  
...
Come on Doc. ! did you really take it seriously ?
On regular basis, I'm the one who gives & not vise versa :cool:
Good luck with the rosette. I agree that hand made rosettes are precious, per se.
Please show me the final product before putting it on.

Yours indeed
Alfaraby

No I didn't take it seriously actually. I do appreciate your contributions and particularly your input an the history of the Nahhat family, it was very helpful and I appreciate it very much. I will surely show the rose prior to installation for your inspection and approval.

jdowning - 6-22-2014 at 11:44 AM

So if the dowel only goes part way through the neck block perhaps the small hole is there to vent any trapped air/excess glue that would otherwise prevent the neck being properly seated when being glued in place? So not a nail hole after all?

Dr. Oud - 6-22-2014 at 11:58 AM

i would say not a nail hole, perhaps glue relief.

Alfaraby - 6-22-2014 at 01:36 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Dr. Oud  
.. I appreciate it very much. I will surely show the rose prior to installation for your inspection and approval.

:bowdown:
My pleasure dear Richard
I wouldn't say "approval", but Arabic calligraphy is a very delicate art, so a calligrapher should take a look before gluing the rose. That's all.
Good luck again

Yours indeed
Alfaraby

Faladel - 12-20-2014 at 08:39 AM

Richard, any updates on this oud?

Dr. Oud - 12-20-2014 at 09:37 AM

I have gone through a difficult situation this summer and have re-located to Sacramento, CA. I have yet to move and set up the shop, so all oud work has been suspended. Thanks for your concern.

ilnokaly - 10-23-2015 at 10:31 AM

Very nice post and very informative as well, but do you have a picture of the braces and its measurements ? It would be great ..
And great job :)

Dr. Oud - 10-28-2015 at 11:05 AM

I do not have the face or any information about the original bracing. I will apply calculated locations and sizes and hope for a good result.

ilnokaly - 10-29-2015 at 01:32 AM

great, do you have any idea about the sound house length/ measurements ? (the last 2 braces in between of which the bridge is located)

Dr. Oud - 10-29-2015 at 07:18 AM

The oud is packed away for relocation so I don't have any numbers for you. I plan to use the bracing design from the oldest Nahhat that I have specifications for, adjusted for the length of the Atonji.