Mike's Oud Forums

heavy oud

A7mad - 12-19-2004 at 08:17 AM

i noticed that the ebony oud by M.F.Shehata weighs more than any oud i came across,should i be concerned here , cause i heard that generally ods should not be heavy...

Ronny Andersson - 12-21-2004 at 07:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by A7mad
i noticed that the ebony oud by M.F.Shehata weighs more than any oud i came across,should i be concerned here , cause i heard that generally ods should not be heavy...


I don't think ebony makes a good tonewood. Many oud makers builds to heavy instruments and ebony ribs needs to be thinner than other woods, else you have a very heavy instrument that the tone will be suffering. The renaissance and baroque lutes are very light instruments and also if they are made of ebony.

Haluk - 12-21-2004 at 12:11 PM

We use Ebony wood for fingerboards and pegs.It is heaviest and strong wood.Only Ebony wood sinks in the water because of it's heavy specific gravity.As my opinion it is not useful for to build oud or saz-baglama.

Regards all.

A7mad

sydney - 1-18-2005 at 05:27 AM

As far as I know about M.F. Shehata ouds is they are always numbered.

What oud number do you have?

Zulkarnain - 1-18-2005 at 07:54 AM

The Ebony Rosewood Oud that I have is fine :)

Hello Zul

sydney - 1-18-2005 at 04:33 PM

:wavey:

How you doing there brother?

I hope things are getting better for you there.


I was asking A7mad about his heavy Shehata oud .. what number is it?

Do you know what number Ebony ouds come under?

My oud is heave too

Mamdouh - 1-18-2005 at 04:55 PM

I just bought one Ebony oud and it is very heavy.. what is going on?

Zulkarnain - 1-18-2005 at 07:29 PM

Hi Sydney

Things are ok here bro :) I think the Oud number on my Shehata Oud is 1101

Neck, Pegs, Peg Box, Fingerboard and all trim around the Oud is Ebony. The rest is Rosewood.

Salam

Zul bacha

sydney - 1-18-2005 at 08:59 PM

:wavey:

I am glad everything is going alright for you mate.. All the best budd.

Now I was asking about the full Ebony oud. That is what A7mad was originally talking about. Rosewood is way too light comapred to Ebony .

Have you got a full Ebony oud?

How heavy is it comapred to the normal other ouds?

all the best mate !

Zulkarnain - 1-19-2005 at 12:15 AM

Hi

The one I have for sale right now is not all Ebony fortunately :) The ribs are all Rosewood with Ebony spacer between them and the soundboard is Spruce of course :) Its slightly heavy around the Neck and Peg Box area because they are all Ebony I guess. Overall I think its ok - doesnt bother me at all to be honest with you - still deliver great sound ;)

Salam

sydney - 1-19-2005 at 04:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zulkarnain
Hi

The one I have for sale right now is not all Ebony fortunately :) The ribs are all Rosewood with Ebony spacer between them. Its slightly heavy around the Neck and Peg Box area because they are all Ebony I guess. Overall I think its ok - doesnt bother me at all to be honest with you - still deliver great sound.

Salam


Yeah , Zul, good for you brother I am happy it delivers a great sound. I'll keep this in mind when I want to buy a new oud. but this is not what I am going on about !!

If you say your oud is "slightly heavy" yet it is not made of full Ebony. If it is fully Ebony how heavy would it be?

I am not sure if you would be able to answer me this .. What happens if you receive a faulty oud ? Do you return it to Shehata or what do you do? Does Shehata shop provide warranty after sale?

Zulkarnain - 1-19-2005 at 07:12 AM

Hi

Yeah u can always return the Oud back to him (the last 6 Ouds I order from him arrived with 2 of it with some damages) He said I can return them back and he will replace it for a new one.

I reckon if its a all Ebony Oud, the weight might be a bit more heavier than the one I have now :)


Salam

Mike - 1-19-2005 at 07:42 AM

Hi Sydney,

Ebony is a much denser wood than say walnut or padauk. It is going to be heavier. It is also more expensive. Price an ebony guitar on the Net to see what I mean. As far as damaged ouds go, my guess is the oud got damaged during shipping. When Mav and I were in Egypt Maurice showed us a beautiful oud that looked perfect to the eye. The soundboard was inlaid with intricate silver pieces and mother of pearl. Maurice was not satisfied with the sound of that oud. The next time Mav and I went to his shop, we saw that the soundboard was removed and was broken to pieces. He told us something to the effect of how could he offer an oud to somebody if he himself is not satisfied with the sound of the oud. In other words, he takes pride in his work and won't release ouds unless they are perfect. If you received a damaged oud, let him know about it. I'm sure he will work things out with you.

Good luck,
Mike

mavrothis - 1-19-2005 at 04:37 PM

Hi,

First of all, Shehata's favorite wood for oud bowls and body is ebony. Why? For the sound. He loves the sound of ebony ouds, that's what he told us in Cairo. They are just heavier because ebony is a denser wood, as Mike mentioned. It's not like you're going to break your leg holding it, it's just heavier than you are used to. There is no defect related to the weight. If you like the sound and it plays well, there is no problem. I have heard and played a few ebony ouds and they really tend to have a dark/rich sound that I enjoy, very Farid.

I also remember when he destroyed the silver-inlaid oud b/c he didn't like the sound. He is particular about his ouds, that is why players like Abadi, Ahmad Fathi, and Mamdouh el Gebaly use them.

Now, about a warranty, if there is something wrong with an instrument, you should contact the maker. First be sure it was not damaged after it was purchased, and then contact them. It is possible that any instrument from any maker might have a problem, for whatever reason. The only way to take care of it is to contact the luthier and explain the problem. This is true for any maker of any instrument.

I personally have played many of his ouds and watched the work done in his shop, and was very impressed with their instruments and their attention to detail.

BRAVO

sydney - 1-19-2005 at 08:06 PM

:applause:


That was an absolute perfect M. F. SHEHATA defence.

There was no need for it though.

Dear Mike,

I have sent you an e-mail telling you that I am having a problem with M. Shehata ouds - I sent it to you seeking only advice and I had no aim to bring it to the open knowing that it will disturb a lot of people wishing to buy an oud from M. Shehata.

Sorry mate, you have forced me to do so.

I also told you that I have sent an e-mail to info@mauriceouds.com and I got no reply from there.

How come you could not be bothered to reply my e-mail? I know you do not care.

Any way .. I am sure a lot of oud fans have seen posts by me recommending Shehata ouds - That goes to show that I had nothing against him. but I am also in deep shock to experience such an absolute neglection towards customers after sale to start with.

To send one oud back from Sydney to Egypt it may cost almost the price of the oud. So I might as well forget about it.

The oud I am talking about was brought by a friend and it was sitting all the way from Egypt to Sydney in between his arms.

Zul, when you send ouds back to Egypt .. who pays for that? I do not have oud shop or an on line web site to sell ouds. I can only work hard to save money and buy one oud.

Mr. Mavrothis,

I remember long ago you have strongly supported playing the oud for at least four hours "DAILY". This won't be very pleasant when the oud is heavier than normal. But again this thread was started by a member named A7mad more than a month ago.. how come you have decided to step in now? Any way thanks for dropping those lines. Mike said the same words right before you.


There is so much to say but sadly I do know for sure that it is not going to get us anywhere.

Thank you all for your opinions.

mavrothis - 1-19-2005 at 09:11 PM

Here's some news for you Emad, talk to any professional player, and they will tell you the same thing about practice time - how many hours does Afif Taian usually practice before a performance? Are you no longer a fan of his playing? How many hours does Munir N. Beken practice before a concert tour? Guess. Any advice I give is from advice I've received or personal experience.

Why did I step in now about this oud? I'll tell you, b/c I'm tired of how you insist on insulting people, whether it's webmasters or luthiers, and then pretending like you don't know what you did. Do you own a telephone? If you do, use it and call Shehata about any problem you may have. Why do you constantly need to create drama on the net? Nobody forced you to get an ebony oud, I certainly never told you to. The fact is the ones I've played sounded great. And, every luthier I've ever spoken to has made at least some instruments that needed reworking at some point, nobody is perfect.

Another reason I've stepped in is b/c I think it's pathetic that before you even try calling Shehata and talking to him in person, you go out of your way to badmouth him on the net. How Christian of you Emad, always creating arguments and badmouthing people, that's the way good people act. BRAVO TO YOU.

I'm obviously in the wrong by passing on advice I've gotten from world-renowned players about practice. And of course I'm wrong in pointing out that if you have a problem with an instrument, you should act like a man and do everything you can to contact the luthier (i.e. phone him) instead of acting like an immature baby and badmouthing him in a public forum.

Let me guess Emad, are you getting ready to "forgive me?" Save it man, I'm not writing here b/c I care about you one way or the other, I care for sticking up for someone's reputation whom I respect.

Mike - 1-19-2005 at 09:21 PM

Emad,

You are pathetic, and your attitude is dispicable. How many times have you caused silly back and forth arguments before? Honestly, I can only remember you as being the only person to ever instigate such silliness. I'm sick of your holier than thou attitude.

I responded to your email, but apparently you did not bother to read it. I was surprised to see your post this morning, basically implying that Maurice's ouds arrive damaged. Anyway man, I'm not going to argue with you.

Emad, you are wrong about one thing though. We are getting somewhere. You have been banned to ever post in these forums again. This decision has nothing to do with "defending" Maurice's ouds, as you put it. He doesn't need me or Mav or anybody else to defend his reputation. The respectable artists who play his ouds speak volumes.

I'd like to be banned too.

Mamdouh - 1-19-2005 at 10:21 PM

Hey,

I am not sure if Emad saw this

The guy told you that he contacted Shahata and got no reply ... why did you give the blind eye to this?

Mav-you take sides and you never tell the truth. You even repeat Mikes word for word. you do not even play half as good as Emad.

I'd like to be banned too.

Mike - 1-19-2005 at 10:24 PM

Maybe his email isn't working. He said he didn't get a response to the email he sent me, yet I replied to him.

No problem. I can make that happen. You are now banned.

I wouldn't like to be banned... back to ebony ouds?

eliot - 1-19-2005 at 11:35 PM

If the thread can return to ebony ouds for a bit, Necati Celik has an amazing oud built I believe in the 1970s whose body is made almost entirely of ebony. I think it was a gift from his teacher, Cinucen Tanrikorur. It is an exceptional instrument with a very unique and beautiful tone, but I have played other ebony instruments that in no way sounded nor played similar. Perhaps this one ebony oud is an exception, but it is one of the finest instruments I've ever seen or played. And yes, it's very heavy- about twice as heavy as any of his other instruments.

Technical thoughts on Ebony oud bowls

Elie Riachi - 1-20-2005 at 08:13 AM

I wouldn't think that the resonance of the bowl contributes that much to the sound of the oud, ouds are played with the bowl in close contact with the player's body which dampens most of the resonance anyway. What I think is an important function of the bowl is the refelction of the sound, which can be achieved by using denser woods for the bowl and smoothing the inside. Also the stronger the bowl, the more stable the action will be.

Having stated the above, I would consider ebony bowls to have a favorable effect on the sound and integrity of the oud.

A disadvatage to making bowls out of ebony is that they are hard to work with (cuting and bending and can dull tools fast from what I read.)

As for making the oudheavy, if it causes them to tend to slide off during playing, maybe some sort of a rubber pad (the sort you find at hardware stores to hold wood for routing) can be used between the oud and the player's thigh which the oud rests on.

eliot - 1-20-2005 at 10:02 AM

... not to mention the very toxic dust produced from working with ebony!

Zulkarnain - 1-21-2005 at 07:13 AM

Hi

I guess this topic is pretty close now and I just want to clarify something about what I had mentioned earlier. Regarding the 2 Oud that I returned to Mourice is not his professional one (or even build by him) It is those other Oud from other maker that he have available at his shop in Cairo and Doha.

Salam

Monawar Al-Jabar - 1-22-2005 at 06:35 AM

Dear Mike

I think you have don the right thing to bannd any one who make bad coment about any one .My advise to all members is if you have a problem sort it don't cry on the forums. This forums is for every one benefit to learn from one another and to shear any infromation that some one can learn from. From day one of me finding this forum i have learned many things that i would have other wise . I can only thank you and every one who helped and posted infromation on the forum.

:bowdown:

Elie Riachi - 1-22-2005 at 09:46 AM

I do not see anything wrong with warning the community about some poor quality instruments such as the oud from Pakistan, etc.

But it would be a problem to use the forum to defame and carry personal attacks. No one is perfect and deffects sometimes escape the quality inspection. In making the judgement one should look at the overall quality of the products from a certain source. One out of a thousand deffect should not reuin the reputation of a maker, considering the number of hands involved in the exchange. In this case it doesn't sound like it was a deffect, just the nature of the item by choice.

walkad - 1-23-2005 at 03:57 AM

Elie Riachi wrote:
Quote:

I wouldn't think that the resonance of the bowl contributes that much to the sound of the oud, ouds are played with the bowl in close contact with the player's body which dampens most of the resonance anyway. What I think is an important function of the bowl is the refelction of the sound, which can be achieved by using denser woods for the bowl and smoothing the inside. Also the stronger the bowl, the more stable the action will be


Elie, you put out some very intersting points that got me thinking. The problem is what you say sounded very logical, and still souds ok, but I cant agree with you on all the points...

Whats intersting is, the bowls role, is it only for projection of sound?? I say partly yes, the bowls main role is projecting the sound, but the material of the bowl consume some frequencies. Thats why for example sycamore bowls are very clear on discant tones but the bass is not quite as strong. The ebony tends to consume discant tones, thats why it tends to be dull on higher notes.

Another thing is that every wood sort puts its flavour on the sound, and flavour is a personal thing, some of us like ebony sound, others (like me) likes walnut etc..

From experience, I've noticed that the lighter the oud is, the louder the sound, and I think thats a fact. You can even apply this on guitars, compare a flamenco guitar to classical guitar and you will see weight differences.
From that you can conclude that the ebony oud wouldnt be a loud oud..

I good friend of mine is a electric guitar builder, he told me that his favourite woods is maple and ebony, and they would be not good in acoustical instruments but in electrical guitars you have the pick ups (the microphones) with them you can catch the sound flavour of ebony without a suffering sound volume

Elie Riachi - 1-23-2005 at 09:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by walkad
....From experience, I've noticed that the lighter the oud is, the louder the sound, and I think thats a fact. ....


Hi Walkad,

Your experience is in line with the perception of sound by the human ear; the human ear perceives higher frequency notes as louder than lower frequency ones. The way to judge loudness is to use a sound intensity meter.

You also bring up a good point; the whole instrument vibrates, no doubt, and the denser the material the more the response will be in the low frequency range. If the bowl is allowed to vibrate much (not rigid or weak), the energy of the vibration gets absorbed by the bowl and the oud's sound will be weak. This is not to say that the bowl should not vibrate, because my understanding that is what contributes to lower frequencies, at least in acoustic gutars.

revaldo29 - 1-23-2005 at 09:26 AM

Walkad,

If what you say is true, about woods absorbing certain frequencies, does mixing woods help reduce this problem?

Added a line

Elie Riachi - 1-23-2005 at 09:40 AM

Please note I added a line to the pervious post to clarify the last part of the post.

Elie Riachi - 1-23-2005 at 10:01 AM

Revaldo, good question. If you think of the ribs resonating and reinforcing certain frequency ranges depending on the type of wood (density, stifness), then that may be a plus. But would there be enough ribs to make a difference or would they work against each other and dampen the the sound instead of resonating!

Maybe that was the reasoning behind using different types of woods for the ribs in one oud by the old makers and that is to provide a wider frequency response range from the back.

walkad - 1-24-2005 at 03:06 AM

Quote:

Revaldo, good question. If you think of the ribs resonating and reinforcing certain frequency ranges depending on the type of wood (density, stifness), then that may be a plus. But would there be enough ribs to make a difference or would they work against each other and dampen the the sound instead of resonating!


Intresting point!! I am of the opinion that you shoold be careful on what woods to mix in a bowl.

Another intresting aspect of mixing woods for some people is the estethical part, many wood combination is very beautiful.