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hi Faggiuols,

before you start on the braces, I would advise you to reduce the thickness of your soundboard. Maybe this will afford you the opportunity to do your inlays around the holes again if you whish.

I would aim to have the soundboard at just a touch about 2.3mm

hello Samir
the picture shows the soundboard before smoothing. now soundboard is about 2.3 mm.
I do not think I will inlays again. I will try to make some other corrections to those done.
Samir thanks !!

faggiuols - 11-3-2015 at 09:04 AM

If you wish you can also go ahead without the rosettes until you find a suitable pattern. A rosette may be designed so that it can be fitted and glued into place after the sound board is installed. This is achieved by having a slot or open space in the rosette outer edge to allow the rosette to be inserted - on its edge - through the open sound hole and into the bowl. The rosette will first have string attached so that it may - after insertion - be pulled up into position and glued.
The procedure has been reported with images in an earlier thread but I cannot remember where - as I recall it was a topic first posted by forum member Alfaraby?

Don't be concerned about working slowly - I still have instrument projects that are still only half completed after many years waiting. Life and other priorities always get in the way! That is the great thing about not having to earn a living making instruments!

Looking good.

Thanks Mr. Downing
for your valuable advice!
I agree nice to not have to live with what we love to do a lot, you can enjoy it to the fullest.

I saw the technique to insert the washer after gluing of the soundboard. As usual you have the solution to everything! it's nice to know you're there!

faggiuols - 11-3-2015 at 09:12 AM

Quote: Originally posted by suz_i_dil

I meet Samir advice. Don't hesitate to sand down your soundboard. Then it is a matter of taste, maybe you wish to achieve a stiff soundboard.
if you want something more reactive, go down in thickness. It depends also of the quality of the wood of the soundboard.
As an exemple, for mine I went to 1.8 mm .. but that is a short range to make the final cleaning of the soundboard once the work finish

For the rosette you have time, keep it open. It s even an advantage. Maybe at the end you wish to correct some things on the braces before gluing the rosette. Some makers do that sometimes.

Keep on the good work, il looks great

thanks suz_i_dil
I wondered how the thickness affects the sound ..
for example, according to the little that I know, if I decrease the thickness should be a sound more shrill and less sustain? it's right?
I want a warm sound, rich in harmonics and maybe even with a good sustain!
I want too .... but how would I reason with my table ..
today the thickness is 2.3-2.4mm .., still it lacks the final sanding and should reach around 2.0 - 2.1 ..
where I can find some guidance on the criteria for selecting the thickness?
the braces as they affect?
thank you very much to all and excuse my ignorance!

faggiuols - 11-3-2015 at 09:22 AM

here is a picture of the inlay of the holes.
I proceeded to a grouting to try to correct, but the result is still poor ..
I hope to make beautiful rosettes to look away from mistakes.

tomorrow maybe I post a picture sharper.
the small holes are still to be cut, will be larger. large hole instead is only to be finished.
thank you!

jdowning - 11-3-2015 at 12:22 PM

Do not make the sound board too thin at this stage as you can always remove some material later but you cannot put it back on!

The chosen optimum thickness depends to some extent on the properties of the wood as it affects the stiffness of the sound board - thicker = stiffer all else being equal. So in general a softer sound board in say cedar would be made a bit thicker than one of spruce, however, due to the range of densities for each wood species (denser = harder) there could be some overlap of properties between wood species. Also the quality of the soundboard - exactly quarter sawn, no spiral grain etc - are all factors that can significantly affect sound board stiffness and 'acoustic goodness'.
Usually the sound board will be made a bit thinner around the edges and with inlay banding to introduce a deliberate slight weakness at the edges to help sound board vibration.

This - together with sound board bracing - is all in the realm of luthier 'black magic'. There are no hard and fast rules to guide you only experience in building instruments! So just play it safe, follow an established bracing layout, construct as precisely as you can with minimal forcing of fit of components and you will be pleased with the result.

The sound hole inlays look fine for a first attempt - better than some I have seen coming from small commercial shops.

faggiuols - 11-4-2015 at 10:04 AM

Do not make the sound board too thin at this stage as you can always remove some material later but you cannot put it back on!

The chosen optimum thickness depends to some extent on the properties of the wood as it affects the stiffness of the sound board - thicker = stiffer all else being equal. So in general a softer sound board in say cedar would be made a bit thicker than one of spruce, however, due to the range of densities for each wood species (denser = harder) there could be some overlap of properties between wood species. Also the quality of the soundboard - exactly quarter sawn, no spiral grain etc - are all factors that can significantly affect sound board stiffness and 'acoustic goodness'.
Usually the sound board will be made a bit thinner around the edges and with inlay banding to introduce a deliberate slight weakness at the edges to help sound board vibration.

This - together with sound board bracing - is all in the realm of luthier 'black magic'. There are no hard and fast rules to guide you only experience in building instruments! So just play it safe, follow an established bracing layout, construct as precisely as you can with minimal forcing of fit of components and you will be pleased with the result.

The sound hole inlays look fine for a first attempt - better than some I have seen coming from small commercial shops.

thanks Jdowning
for your more precise descriptions.
having no experience (except for a guitar) will be like rolling the dice .. let's see what will come out!
to the next post!

suz_i_dil - 11-6-2015 at 02:17 PM

+1 for the answer John Downing made you.
I cannot be more informative being ignorant and beginner in building. But I developed my idea and taste by playing
Make it wise and you only be pleased by the result, and looking at the pictures you send you are on a good way to be pleased by the sound of your oud
good luck, looking forward to see the following

faggiuols - 11-9-2015 at 01:29 AM

Quote: Originally posted by suz_i_dil

+1 for the answer John Downing made you.
I cannot be more informative being ignorant and beginner in building. But I developed my idea and taste by playing
Make it wise and you only be pleased by the result, and looking at the pictures you send you are on a good way to be pleased by the sound of your oud
good luck, looking forward to see the following

thanks for your words suz_i_dil.
I am attaching the picture of soundboard with braces rough before modeling.
see you soon

faggiuols - 11-18-2015 at 07:51 AM

Greetings to all the friends of the forum.
I have a doubt about the best material to make the rosettes of my oud ..
alternatively also I find very elegant rosettes dark, so I was thinking to mahogany or cedar..
I want a white rosette, which wood do you recommend? which wood is also better for a beginner like me?
also they are still undecided on the design, but I do not know if I can post in the forum designs downloaded from the internet to show my favorite designs and have you any suggestions ..
this is possible?
thank you all!

Hibari-San - 11-19-2015 at 10:04 AM

Your soundboard is spruce right ? I did never made a rosette but I would take spruce wood because of its excellent tonal
characteristics. It even has a bright color mostly, not white but still nice, matches perfectly with the rest of the soundboard and it is soft. I think mahogany or harder wood could be challenging to cut. More white but even more hard is maple. I also heard about multi layered rosettes but I haven't got enough experience to advise on that

jdowning - 11-19-2015 at 04:34 PM

The material of the rosette does not matter acoustically- as Hibari suggests choose a material that is easier to work for you - the harder, closer grained the better for cutting - by fret saw - any finer, complex detail. Softer, easier to work materials for less complex patterns. Spruce would not be a good choice unless, of course , you are following lute tradition by cutting the rosette directly into the sound board.The rosette pattern - complex or simple - has little acoustical effect (air resonance frequency). I would avoid plastic or synthetic materials for the rosette - but that is just my personal preference.

Multi layered rosettes are OK for baroque guitars but not ouds - unless you want to break with tradition!

faggiuols - 11-20-2015 at 07:19 AM

Thank you all for your contributions.

surely the plastic will never touch my oud!
So I think I'll stay in the two possibiilità: mahogany or cedar.
the problem is always to find the right pattern .. I have not chosen yet!
Today jamesissa2004 has posted images of an oud made by Nahat that حس very beautiful rosettes ... I do not mind find these designs! does anyone know where I can find them?
unfortunately the photo distorts the image and you can not use the photos!
if someone can help me in this I will be very grateful to him! even something like this will be fine ...
thanks to all in advance
I attach the image

[file]37482[/file]

of course I know that the center is the signature of the luthier and therefore that part would be to draw new ..

jdowning - 11-20-2015 at 04:50 PM

You will never be able to cut a rosette with that amount of fine detail using mahogany or cedar - the latter being particularly soft. Your material should be bone veneer or some similar hard, grain free stuff - even hard plastic sheet such as 'Formica' - all cut with a fine bladed jeweller's fret saw.

faggiuols - 11-23-2015 at 09:52 AM

You will never be able to cut a rosette with that amount of fine detail using mahogany or cedar - the latter being particularly soft. Your material should be bone veneer or some similar hard, grain free stuff - even hard plastic sheet such as 'Formica' - all cut with a fine bladed jeweller's fret saw.

thanks Jdowning
for your valuable advice.
I would like to use wood for the rosette and I am available to modify the idea of drawning, but I don't want use ant. About the bone does not know if it's easy to find a piece of bone of sufficient size to achieve rosette .. usually you go to the butcher? I can see if it is feasible! I prefer dark color..
however I'm starting to think of a simpler design for use wood ..
I saw that many luthiers use mahogany, or rosewood o zircote ...
it will mean that I will do some testing! My luck is that I do it for pure passion!
thanks

P.S:
Today I bought the magazine of villanella Neapolitan, with magazine attached (CD + magazine) and I'll be happy to send it as soon gift! then in pvt you send me your address!
unfortunately it is all in Italian but I know the magazine and I believe you'll find it very beautiful. It will then be a privilege to help you translate the parts you want.

Hibari-San - 11-23-2015 at 10:34 AM

Saluto !

what jdowning meant was bone veneer which is already put together to a flat, thin plate.
As a veneer you can find bone in various measurements.
In germany I found it in a instrument maker supplier store, who also sells mother of pearl veneer and stuff like that.

Good luck for your rosette cutting !!

jdowning - 11-23-2015 at 04:19 PM

Faggiuols - thank you for your kind offer to send the villanella Neapolitan magazine/CD. I will look forward to that.
In return I could make up and send you some 2 to 3 mm thick veneer plates in African Ebony that I have in stock for making the rosettes - the wood is completely black, hard, fine grained and well seasoned (if plain black is the colour that you want?) - so it should also hold fine design detail. What are your sound hole diameters and I will check what I have in stock to suit?

If you prefer a lighter coloured wood I also have some old Castello boxwood in stock - it is pale yellow in colour - again hard and fine grained so will also hold fine design detail. I use it for pegs, fingerboards and inlay work.

I will email you later with details as I have a family emergency to deal with at present.

faggiuols - 11-24-2015 at 12:54 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Hibari-San

Saluto !

thanks Hibari-San ..

actually I did not understand what bone is used for rosette!
thanks for your clarification !!
Now I'll do some research on the internet!

faggiuols - 11-24-2015 at 01:14 AM

Faggiuols - thank you for your kind offer to send the villanella Neapolitan magazine/CD. I will look forward to that.
In return I could make up and send you some 2 to 3 mm thick veneer plates in African Ebony that I have in stock for making the rosettes - the wood is completely black, hard, fine grained and well seasoned (if plain black is the colour that you want?) - so it should also hold fine design detail. What are your sound hole diameters and I will check what I have in stock to suit?

If you prefer a lighter coloured wood I also have some old Castello boxwood in stock - it is pale yellow in colour - again hard and fine grained so will also hold fine design detail. I use it for pegs, fingerboards and inlay work.

I will email you later with details as I have a family emergency to deal with at present.

thank's mr. Jdowning
for your very welcome offer ..
But I actually prefer a less dark ebony color, but lighter than the yellow boxwood .. I do not really like the yellow.
ebony, with the dark background of rosewood , will not stand out sufficiently.
the color should be like mahogany, wood color, but in between the clear fir and black ebony.
do you think that mahogany is not good to make rosette? I could possibly cut a rosette in mohogany with greater thickness and then decrease the thickness?
Instead, if you can help me, I would like very some rosette design or some indication of where I can find drawings on internet .. I do not have many, especially for small holes!
quiet for your family emergency, the family first! I, as you know, I did not hurry!

jdowning - 11-24-2015 at 05:11 PM

Thank you faggiuols.
Of course, you may use any wood species that you want for a rosette - the rosette design or its material has little if any significant acoustical effect. My only point is that if you want to cut a very complex design of rosette with fine detail you will need to use a hard, fine grained material - be it bone veneer or wood. Mahogany will be OK but it is relatively soft with some grain so will not accept such fine detail without being weak and so potentially prone to breakage. So a simpler more robust design choice will be necessary.
Sorry, I do not have a source of oud rosette designs large or small.

I will be in touch by email hopefully within a few days.

faggiuols - 11-26-2015 at 08:24 AM

yuppies!
found it !!!!!
I finally managed to find a rosette file that looks beautiful to me!
I am attaching!
Now I have to find drawings of rosette for small holes that go great together!
now I'm going to do the tests .. if I can not do that, I'll try to take a simpler design!
goodbye at all

[file]37502[/file]

faggiuols - 11-27-2015 at 01:01 AM

Goodmorning everyone

Yesterday I started roughing braces (3 mm in the center - 4 mm near the bowl).
I am attaching a photo.
the problem is that the points where the braces will paste on the bowl, the contact surface is not perfect, but it touches only partially.
do you believe this will be a problem during the gluing of the soundboard, or the glue will fill all the spaces, making bonding good?

thank you all

[file]37510[/file]

jdowning - 1-5-2016 at 04:00 PM

The CD and Amadeus periodical 'Le Villanelle alla Napoletana' arrived today. Thank you for your kindness faggiuols.

The performance and artistic interpretation of the music is outstanding and the historical information in the magazine is covered in depth - even including information about the colascione - one of the instruments used in the recording.

I must now make a start on learning the basics of reading Italian!

A Happy New Year to all.

Alfaraby - 1-6-2016 at 02:38 PM

Now I have to find drawings of rosette for small holes that go great together

Please contact me through e-mail. I might be of some help.
Good luck
Yours indeed
Alfaraby

faggiuols - 1-7-2016 at 01:00 AM

The CD and Amadeus periodical 'Le Villanelle alla Napoletana' arrived today. Thank you for your kindness faggiuols.

The performance and artistic interpretation of the music is outstanding and the historical information in the magazine is covered in depth - even including information about the colascione - one of the instruments used in the recording.

I must now make a start on learning the basics of reading Italian!

A Happy New Year to all.

Dear mr Jdowning

I am happy that it has arrived to you.
I know that the magazine is beautiful and I hope you likes it.
I want to Thank you for any help that you reserve at all in this forum with your wisdom.
Happy new Year.

faggiuols - 1-7-2016 at 01:01 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Alfaraby

Now I have to find drawings of rosette for small holes that go great together

Please contact me through e-mail. I might be of some help.
Good luck
Yours indeed
Alfaraby

Dear mr Alfaraby

Thank you very much for your kindness.
I send you an email immediately.
thanks a lot.

faggiuols - 1-25-2016 at 01:41 AM

Hello everyone

a little update on my slow work.
I am realizing the covering of neck with maple wood. Small splints because the single piece I can not bend it (unique piece was in my original plan).
I'm deciding whether to insert the inlay of rosewood between a cue and the other or leave it white.
If someone wants to say their opinion is always well accepted.
the next update.

SamirCanada - 1-25-2016 at 05:57 AM

I think it would be nice with 1 rosewood splint down the middle. or alternating 2 white maples, 1 rosewood, etc...

of you can simply add a small 1 mm rosewood or black stripe in between.

I am sure you know this but you can use a plane inverted to make the glue angle match exactly on the wooden splints. just like when you make the ribs.

faggiuols - 1-25-2016 at 09:25 AM

Hello Samir
nice idea to put a small 1 mm rosewood strip betwen le strisce di acero!
I really like!
Now I am going to do some test!

I will keep you up to date.
bye

faggiuols - 1-26-2016 at 12:48 AM

Dear forum participants

someone, in pvt, told me that being a neck white in contrast with the dark bowl is not a good idea .. all my oud project collapsed, in my mind!
it being understood that even my idea remains the same, I would like to know, if possible, some other opinion.
I thank you all in advance.

abc123xyz - 1-26-2016 at 02:13 PM

someone, in pvt, told me that being a neck white in contrast with the dark bowl is not a good idea .. all my oud project collapsed, in my mind!

Well if you're building this oud for yourself, then it's entirely a matter of personal aesthetics, isn't it?

You have enough of the oud finished at this point that you can confidently tell whether you're going to like the light neck on the dark body or not, and should proceed accordingly.

If you're hoping to sell it however, then you might want to get a few opinions besides your own, but only then, just to see what's most commonly wanted.

My first and only oud was a cheap no-name model with a body of alternating dark and light woods and a light-colored neck cut from a single piece of wood with no veneer or anything, and I like how that neck looks. I even prefer it to many of the more fancy necks I've seen, though I should admit that in general I prefer simple and minimally adorned instruments.

In matters of engineering and how structure affects sound and playability, one should definitely defer to those with more experience, but, in regard to aesthetics, one should always follow their own heart ¦·)

David

faggiuols - 1-27-2016 at 01:41 AM

thanks David
a nice answer .., I would greatly appreciate your words.
I do not have to sell this oud, it will be "my" oud!
actually, after this remark on the color of the neck, my idea of the colors of the oud was broken, and I no longer very safe.
I enclose below the images of how it should be, the veneer is also given by poor technical capacity, in fact I preferred all white, but I can not get over the good bonding between the pieces. for this reason I prefer to put the thread of rosewood.
Certainly I follow my heart as soon as this has stabilized again.
I hope to soon overcome this uncertainty
Thanks so much, David.

[file]38006[/file] [file]38002[/file] [file]38004[/file]

jdowning - 1-27-2016 at 04:34 AM

Nicely done faggiuols! Neat workmanship.
The built up veneer blank is quite thick (that you will be trimming down to finished size once glued in place) so your decision to use black strips in the joints is a wise one. The use of contrasting woods in this way was often employed by some of the finest luthiers in history where the joining of wood segments (such as non symmetrical lute ribs) was a bit complicated. The contrasting woods (dark against white) disguise any slight discrepancies in the joints so they will never be noticed.
As for appearances the choice is entirely yours. It looks just fine to me. I have made instruments with light coloured, dark veneered and black stained or painted necks - all techniques found in historical instruments. A black neck is often preferred only because it is less likely to show marks in use - that is all.

If you are planning to add a traditional 'bracelet' strip covering the neck joint this will be a natural break in the continuity between the ends of the bowl ribs and the neck veneer and will also cover any slight discrepancies that may be visible in the neck joint itself.

Varnishing (a penetrating finish gunstock such as Truoil) will protect against staining of the white wood in use and will bring out its natural grain figure as an additional decorative feature.
Good progress.

faggiuols - 1-28-2016 at 12:44 AM

Thanks mr. Jdowming
for your words .. I feel much better!
I needed solace.
naturally I will put the bracelet between the neck and the bowl. I think it will be in continuity with ebony for the keyboard also made of ebony. also off well with rosewood with maple.
The pegbox is maple interior and exterior rosewood and, if I can, I would put the wires maple on the outside .. this will update my thread later.
thanks for the appreciation for my work too!

SamirCanada - 1-28-2016 at 11:16 AM

I like it!,
In fact I have seen some very expensive ouds with the same colour scheme.

Microber - 1-28-2016 at 12:45 PM

Hi Faggiuols,
I also like it very much. Keep on your good work. And build your oud as you feel.
Robert

faggiuols - 1-29-2016 at 01:28 AM

Dear Samir and Robert

thanks for your kind words of appreciation.
unfortunately I am a neophyte in the world of the oud and I do not know, like you, the tradition of it. thanks for sharing with me many things about this wonderful musical instrument!
however, the veneer is glued!
Last night I finished gluing, and in a few days I will check if everything went well. I am attaching the photo
I will update in a few days.
Goodbye and good weekend!

jdowning - 1-29-2016 at 09:09 AM

Note that if using an oil/varnish formulation for a hand rubbed finish (easy to use) on the neck veneer, the thin varnish is absorbed into the wood and does not sit on the surface (or wear out in use) like a plain clear varnish. The absorbed oil/varnish mixture will slightly darken the bare wood as it 'brings out' the wood grain and result in an attractive hard, durable, water resistant semi matte (i.e. not glossy or shiny) finish.
One commercially available example of an oil/varnish mix is 'TruOil' - originally intended for finishing gun stocks - or alternatively a 'Danish Oil' varnish can be used. A hand rubbed finish may also be applied to the bowl and does not require practiced skill to apply like a 'French' polished finish.

If you cannot purchase 'TruOil' in Sardinia, Italy then you can very easily make your own oil/varnish finish at low cost as I have described here.

http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=12156

Unfortunately, I am not allowed to ship 'TruOil' by mail otherwise I could have sent you a bottle to try.

SamirCanada - 1-29-2016 at 09:16 AM

I think you needed more clamps and rubber tubing for gluing the strips. :rolleyes:

jdowning - 1-29-2016 at 07:43 PM

Always test oil/varnish or any varnish on a scrap piece of wood to ensure that it will dry properly. Some of the exotic hardwoods (some rosewoods for example) may contain natural oils that prevent drying. The maple veneer on the neck should not be a problem.

Hibari-San - 1-30-2016 at 01:00 PM

Wow faggiuols ! compliments on ur work so far !! very beautiful

I am using oil on my instruments too. Especially for the neck, I really like the visual and the "feeling" of it.
High gloss varnish is not really my taste, using superior german wood oil with it's easy application gives a very nice color and strength in the grain.
You can have a look in my threads

I even only wax my soundboards.

attached drawing

man_go - 2-1-2016 at 12:32 AM

I realized that I did not post my project.
I remedy immediately. of course the design is done by following the text of Hankey.

I precise that it seemed to me that the book has some inaccuracies mainly on the size and location of the bridge. I could be wrong view to have understood my difficulties with English.
in any case there are small differences with respect to what is written by Hankey in my project.

the file is not easily readable.
if anyone is interested I can send it in a format heavier or even in dwg.

Hello
This is my first contribution in this unique Forum
and i am Following-up your wonderful project and I wish you good luck up to the end.
Finally, if you don't mind can you send me the full copy of the attached drawing in post quoted above please?
thanks and keep on the good work.
EMAIL: abood11847@gmail.com

faggiuols - 2-1-2016 at 12:56 AM

Always test oil/varnish or any varnish on a scrap piece of wood to ensure that it will dry properly. Some of the exotic hardwoods (some rosewoods for example) may contain natural oils that prevent drying. The maple veneer on the neck should not be a problem.

thanks Mr. Jdowning
for valuable tips on painting the oud.
in truth, in my mind, I am very far from that point yet.
I know already what is sure, it is that I would like a flat paint and not semi-gloss or glossy. honestly I have not yet studied a lot about this, but I think there will also beeswax!
I know that many luthiers mate tru oil to the beeswax, but I do not remember very well how and by what procedure..
Do you know any technique to get a result matte finish that highlights the wood?

Thanks for all

faggiuols - 2-1-2016 at 12:59 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Hibari-San

Wow faggiuols ! compliments on ur work so far !! very beautiful

I am using oil on my instruments too. Especially for the neck, I really like the visual and the "feeling" of it.
High gloss varnish is not really my taste, using superior german wood oil with it's easy application gives a very nice color and strength in the grain.
You can have a look in my threads

I even only wax my soundboards.

Thanks Hibari-San

for your compliments.
Indeed, as I wrote above, I would like a matte finish. Any advice is accepted with great pleasure!
How does painting with beeswax?
I used it for a table, but never for musical instruments!
thank you

faggiuols - 2-1-2016 at 01:05 AM

I think you needed more clamps and rubber tubing for gluing the strips. :rolleyes:

thanks Samir
for your advice ..
I glued the veneer and I think came pretty well.
I also got a first cleaning the neck and it seems to me that it came good. I attach some pictures of the work. I would be happy if you tell me what you think!
if I could do the job again, maybe I would do the slats of maple much tighter. seem disproportionate to the ribs of the bowl .. what do you think too?
[file]38051[/file] [file]38053[/file]

faggiuols - 2-1-2016 at 01:20 AM

Quote: Originally posted by man_go

hello mango
I sent you an email with the file in pdf.
Let me know if you can be interested to file autocad.
If you use this software is certainly better for you.
bye

SamirCanada - 2-1-2016 at 06:31 AM

it came out looking excellent! I was just joking my friend. The amount of tubing on that thing it wasn't moving even if you had a tornado come through your house.

faggiuols - 2-2-2016 at 12:19 AM

it came out looking excellent! I was just joking my friend. The amount of tubing on that thing it wasn't moving even if you had a tornado come through your house.

hello Samir

sorry ... but we Sardinian people we get two days to understand jokes!
(in fact your observation had seemed strange ..)

jdowning - 2-2-2016 at 04:08 PM

A beeswax finish if done properly over a smooth surface is a high gloss finish and not a very durable one at that as it is relatively soft and will attract dirt over time on a neck. It will likely feel sticky to the touch on warm days.

A hand rubbed oil/varnish fiinish is hard and durable and and very easy to apply. Just wipe it on with a brush or cloth. Let it stand for about 15 minutes until fully absorbed into the wood, wipe off any varnish remaining on the surface and leave it to dry for a day. For a dull finish just dilute the varnish a little with thinners.

faggiuols - 2-3-2016 at 12:45 AM

A beeswax finish if done properly over a smooth surface is a high gloss finish and not a very durable one at that as it is relatively soft and will attract dirt over time on a neck. It will likely feel sticky to the touch on warm days.

A hand rubbed oil/varnish fiinish is hard and durable and and very easy to apply. Just wipe it on with a brush or cloth. Let it stand for about 15 minutes until fully absorbed into the wood, wipe off any varnish remaining on the surface and leave it to dry for a day. For a dull finish just dilute the varnish a little with thinners.

Thanks Mr. Jdowning

your explanations are always very clear and useful.
Indeed I know that beeswax does not protect the oud.
But I would add that I wish that the soundboard and maple veneers of the neck, after painting, whiter possible, ie without color. So I want a paint that does not color.
One of the options I was considering was also shellac extra-light.
You think Truo-oils can be painted with the result not to give color?

what kind of diluents should be used to make matte finish?

thanks a lot

jdowning - 2-3-2016 at 06:20 AM

The thinner for a TruOil type finishes is just a standard paint thinner.

I don't use it but I suspect that even bleached shellac has some slight colour? Note that shellac should be applied in many very thin layers rubbing down each layer between coats to achieve a smooth blemish free surface - a surface that will not be completely dull (or could be very shiny if skilfully applied as a 'French Polish'). If you really want a dull finish then any shiny surface can be made dull by lightly rubbing with very fine steel wool (being careful not to cut through the finish to bare wood underneath).
However, in the case of the back of a neck, a dull surface will soon become polished and shiny over time due to movement of the thumb until the varnished or shellac layer becomes worn through to the wood and will require repair. Refinishing is easily done with both shellac and an oil/varnish finish.

I would not use a waxed finish on a sound board (although some luthiers do). On sound boards I usually use a very thin (diluted with alcohol so that it is water thin) application of shellac that can be simply wiped on with a cloth pad (or no finish at all).

faggiuols - 2-3-2016 at 09:27 AM

shellac has light color color, although clear, but the real problem is that it is a gloss finish. But it protects well the oud.
Maybe I did not understand. you use shellac to the soundboard, but what do you use for the bowl and the neck? Sometimes you let the soundboard without paint?
thank you

jdowning - 2-3-2016 at 12:03 PM

I use brushed on varnish for bowl and neck or wiped on TruOil type finishes. Note that all varnishes are clear or transparent and - those made from natural materials - usually have some degree of natural colour tint. They can also be tinted to be more heavily coloured yet are still transparent when applied.

Paint is opaque and coloured - OK for preserving the woodwork of a house for example but not generally used for instrument making.

In the Turkish oud making tradition the sound board is left unfinished as any oil, varnish or wax on the surface is considered to adversely affect the sound of an instrument. I use a very dilute coating of shellac wiped onto a sound board with a pad to protect the surface from dirt over time.

faggiuols - 2-4-2016 at 01:48 AM

thank you!
very clear.
I do not really like using different types of varnish for soundboard and bowl .. maybe I take the idea of shellac again, even very diluted, throughout the oud.
thanks as always.
P.S .: I am sorry, but this time Renata Fusco did not respond to my message. I tried yesterday to send a message again, if she were to answer me I will tell you immediately.

Alfaraby - 2-4-2016 at 06:52 AM

I'm tuned, yet have little to contribute to your great project dear friend.
excuse my intrudance, but the dimensions of the neck should be very close to:
width: 37-8/55 mm;
Thickness: 20/22-3 mm.
It's very important to keep this cone/taper of the neck, in order to ensure smooth playing.

Good luck

Yours indeed
Alfaraby

jdowning - 2-4-2016 at 08:33 AM

Shellac on the bowl is always a good choice as an alternative to a varnish. You will be fine using just shellac. It is best to make up your own fresh shellac solution from dry shellac flakes dissolved in alcohol. Once made into a solution its shelf life is limited (about 6 months or so) and old shellac solution will not dry properly. Shellac flakes have an infinite shelf life if stored properly. If a shellac solution is purchased from a store ready made there is no guarantee that it will always be fresh so always check the date on the can.

Shellac is a fast drying finish so should be made dilute to facilitate even application without streaks etc. The very thin shellac solution means that you will have to apply several coats (using a cloth pad wiping in the wood grain direction) with very light sanding between each coat - to build up a thick enough finished coat. About 4 or 5 coats should be enough.
How thin is thin? Well if you purchase a ready mixed can of commercial shellac, dilute one third of it with 2/3 by volume of alcohol. Shake and leave the mixture to stand for a day or two and then decant the clear liquid from any residue that has settled out. Then dilute the clear liquid further with an equal volume of alcohol, That thin - almost like pure clear alcohol!! The finish applied this way will not be glossy - unless you polish it - but will have a smooth fine lustre.

In fact I would apply shellac as a sealer coat on rosewood before applying varnish. This is because some rosewood species contain natural oils that may prevent varnish drying properly - shellac is not affected by the oils so acts as a barrier between the wood and varnish overcoat. Brazilian rosewood is particularly troublesome in this respect and requires wiping with a degreasing agent before applying any finish.

Thanks for trying to contact Renata on my behalf. She likely has about the same grasp of English as I currently have of Italian so has concluded that communication would not be practical. Not to worry as she has already been very helpful in enabling you to track down a copy of the out of print CD/magazine complete with the lyrics of the Neapolitan songs. No need to bug her any further.

faggiuols - 2-5-2016 at 08:27 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Alfaraby

I'm tuned, yet have little to contribute to your great project dear friend.
excuse my intrudance, but the dimensions of the neck should be very close to:
width: 37-8/55 mm;
Thickness: 20/22-3 mm.
It's very important to keep this cone/taper of the neck, in order to ensure smooth playing.

Good luck

Yours indeed
Alfaraby

dear friend Alfaraby
thanks for your commitment to follow my long process of building oud.
about measures of the neck, I used the measurements of the book by Hankey and, although I have not had the opportunity these days to precisely control, I think they are like you say. If I remember correctly:
width 38 mm - 54 mm
Height 19 mm, but without the thickness of the keyboard with which grow to about 21 mm.
Then I will write in the coming days the exact measurements ..!
thanks and continues to follow me !!

faggiuols - 2-5-2016 at 08:50 AM

Shellac on the bowl is always a good choice as an alternative to a varnish. You will be fine using just shellac. It is best to make up your own fresh shellac solution from dry shellac flakes dissolved in alcohol. Once made into a solution its shelf life is limited (about 6 months or so) and old shellac solution will not dry properly. Shellac flakes have an infinite shelf life if stored properly. If a shellac solution is purchased from a store ready made there is no guarantee that it will always be fresh so always check the date on the can.

Shellac is a fast drying finish so should be made dilute to facilitate even application without streaks etc. The very thin shellac solution means that you will have to apply several coats (using a cloth pad wiping in the wood grain direction) with very light sanding between each coat - to build up a thick enough finished coat. About 4 or 5 coats should be enough.
How thin is thin? Well if you purchase a ready mixed can of commercial shellac, dilute one third of it with 2/3 by volume of alcohol. Shake and leave the mixture to stand for a day or two and then decant the clear liquid from any residue that has settled out. Then dilute the clear liquid further with an equal volume of alcohol, That thin - almost like pure clear alcohol!! The finish applied this way will not be glossy - unless you polish it - but will have a smooth fine lustre.

In fact I would apply shellac as a sealer coat on rosewood before applying varnish. This is because some rosewood species contain natural oils that may prevent varnish drying properly - shellac is not affected by the oils so acts as a barrier between the wood and varnish overcoat. Brazilian rosewood is particularly troublesome in this respect and requires wiping with a degreasing agent before applying any finish.

Thanks for trying to contact Renata on my behalf. She likely has about the same grasp of English as I currently have of Italian so has concluded that communication would not be practical. Not to worry as she has already been very helpful in enabling you to track down a copy of the out of print CD/magazine complete with the lyrics of the Neapolitan songs. No need to bug her any further.

Dear Mr Jdowning

thanks for your luthiery lessons .
I am happy to follow your precious tips ..
Yesterday I ordered on the internet a little bottle of tru oil to make the first varnishing tests.
Now I would order the clear shellac to make some tests with shellac too.
thanks to you and also to all the other members of the forum for the help that you give me. Without you I would never have managed to get this far!
I also got the idea to put all your writing on this forum and make a book to be kept in my lab, in your posts is all the art of violin making.
It would take a long time but I'm sure it would come out a great book! (It's just an idea that definitely includes your consent!).
Maybe all the members of the forum could help to achieve a great open source book!
they are only ideas !! I think it would be a wonderful job!

Thanks and to the next episode!

faggiuols - 2-19-2016 at 09:54 AM

Dear friends

here is a new update on my work.
I cut the neck to insert the pegbox.
I attach some pictures of the work.

faggiuols - 3-2-2016 at 08:10 AM

hi to all forum members.
I'm doing the pegbox. I attach some pictures.
I wonder if the size and angle of the pegbox are standard, or whether each luthier face as he prefers.
I like the oud, when it is backed with the soundboard upwards, is in orizzontal position, then the length of the pegbox must be aligned with the bowl, ie the keyboard is horizontal.
I hope to have expressed well.
if someone wants to say their idea I I'll be happy.
thank you all.

Dr. Oud - 3-3-2016 at 07:59 AM

If you want perfect symmetric grain as you say you can't have an uneven number of ribs, and the apex should be a joint not a rib. I don't think its a big deal once it's done because it will be hard to see an issue with symmetry even if you use the uneven number of ribs. Now for the famous makers research Nahat, Manol, karibyan, you will get ideas of bracing. There are no reliable books or resources other than the net, Oud makers are a secretive bunch

I don't understand this comment. I have never seen an oud with the joint at the apex, every one has been odd numbers of ribs. A joint at the apex makes the back weak and susceptible to cracking open more than having a rib there. As for grain symmetry - if you mean book matching, it's a choice between matching each pair of ribs or over the whole back. It can be done if you have enough wood in the original billet and select the pairs accordingly.

As for researching for bracing, good luck. I learned about bracing by dismantling ouds over many years and what I found was there are many ways to brace the face, and many work. The bracing in my book is based on a Hanna Nahhat model 1910. Hanna's ouds are unsurpassed in tone and overall sound for Arabic style. Follow Manol certainly if you want the Turkish sound. Karibyan follows the Manol design as do all Turkish makers.As for books - besides mine, there are books in Turkish and apprentice programs there and in Iran, if you care to travel. The Arabic makers not so much, they don't seem to share knowledge, a pity as so much has been lost as a result.

faggiuols - 3-3-2016 at 10:04 AM

Thanks Dr Oud for your comment.
in truth this was an old post, response to my request for help about the intention to make symmetrical the grain of the wooden bowl. this is impossible with an odd number of ribs.
I did book matching with ribs, but one rib is alone.
about bracing, which bracing is what makes it the hottest oud sound and sweet? which of those you have mentioned? I am totally ignorant on the subject ..
I imagine that there is not an answer, but if there is an answer you'll be very grateful if you give it to me ...
thanks dr. Oud!

Dr. Oud - 3-5-2016 at 08:36 AM

The Arabic ouds are known for deep bass and edgy or raspy tone. Turkish ouds are smoother, more mellow with bright trebles.

faggiuols - 3-7-2016 at 02:28 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Dr. Oud

The Arabic ouds are known for deep bass and edgy or raspy tone. Turkish ouds are smoother, more mellow with bright trebles.

Thanks Dr Oud
then I think I'm headed towards an Arab-style oud!

faggiuols - 3-25-2016 at 03:08 AM

a small photo update of the pegbox.
Soon other update.
Happy Easter to everyone!

faggiuols - 3-29-2016 at 01:07 AM

Here are a few more photos.
I thought, naively, that make the pegbox would be easier.
Instead create a perfect fit, it's not easy.

SamirCanada - 3-29-2016 at 05:12 AM

Faggiuols,
you should also make the back of the pegbox before you can glue it in the notch.

faggiuols - 3-29-2016 at 06:06 AM

Faggiuols,
you should also make the back of the pegbox before you can glue it in the notch.

Hello Samir
I know that must be closed pegbox!
I have not pasted the back because I want that the joint is well done before.
behind the open it helps me to see the out of plumb of the pegbox.
After I close the back of the pegbox ...
thank you so much

faggiuols - 3-30-2016 at 01:04 AM

here is a new image ...

SamirCanada - 3-30-2016 at 05:05 AM

after you cut the extra waste you can start to fit the pegbox.

faggiuols - 3-30-2016 at 07:48 AM

after you cut the extra waste you can start to fit the pegbox.

thanks Samir
the back is not yet glued .. I just bent wood.
now I have to glue the two sheets (two sheets - one inside Maple and one outside rosewood), then i glue them to the pegbox ..
After I put the Maple fillets in the corners!

I was wondering .. how do you clean the residual glue inside the pegbox?

SamirCanada - 3-30-2016 at 08:32 AM

I use a narrow chisel. Just to scrape it away.

faggiuols - 3-31-2016 at 07:58 AM