Mike's Oud Forums

Tremolo method

nard - 10-29-2014 at 10:32 AM

Hi all,

I have been playing around with my oud for almost 2 years now but, for some reason, I can't quite get a smooth tremolo method down. It is easiest on the first and second course strings (do and sol), but on the three upper courses (re la fa), the reesha has a tendency to "snag" especially on the up-stroke. I have watched videos, have tried relaxing, holding the reesha at a 45 degree angle, etc., but I am still "snagging" quite a bit.

Any advice?

Thank you so much!

nard

majnuunNavid - 10-29-2014 at 12:54 PM

I would recommend first trying to experiment with the grip of your risha. Try holding it slightly tighter, see if that helps, if not, try holding it looser and see which gives you the best result. If none of that helps, experiment with how much risha is protruding from your index finger and thumb grip. Try holding it closer to the tip, or a touch farther from the tip, and see what happens.

What material of Risha are you using?
The floppier your risha, the more snag you are going to get. It might be worth investing in a cow horn risha. I find the more rigid and crisp the risha is, the less snag is created.

Finally, if none of these work, I might suggest you need to be a bit more rough with your tremolo, and really play the thing without being afraid of the strings. Try playing a really loud tremolo and strum the whole Oud like playing a chord. Be aggressive for a while, and then pull back and control your tremolo, see if that removes any snag.

I hope some of these suggestions help. I would really like to hear how it goes.

markus - 10-29-2014 at 01:16 PM

hello Nard
I had the same problem and was advised to concentrate on a single string usually the lower on on doing the tremolo which has worked for me
best of luck

Almelaifi - 10-29-2014 at 07:09 PM

Try a different risha, different string set, and even a different oud. All of them have something to do with tremolo.

franck leriche - 10-30-2014 at 03:25 AM

Tremolo is nothing but fast down up strokes.
Practice down up stroke very clean and very slow, then increase step by step.
Don't forget to rest very often.
After more than 30 years being a musician, i've founded i lot of similarity between sport practice and music practice. No one athlete would train without pauses.....

Pausing for 30 seconds help me a lot lately.

John Erlich - 10-30-2014 at 07:50 AM

Quote: Originally posted by franck leriche  
Tremolo is nothing but fast down up strokes.
Practice down up stroke very clean and very slow, then increase step by step.
Don't forget to rest very often.
After more than 30 years being a musician, i've founded i lot of similarity between sport practice and music practice. No one athlete would train without pauses.....

Pausing for 30 seconds help me a lot lately.

I agree completely. Franck's description above is exactly how I teach the "rashi" (tremolo) to my students. If you are in Oakland, CA, there are a number of experienced oud players in the area who could meet with you and give you some pointers.

Good luck!

Peace out,
"Udi" John

P.S. How about those Giants?!

SamirCanada - 10-30-2014 at 09:11 AM

I always explain it by comparing to toddlers play that game with door stoppers by <b>rooster</b>ing it first and then releasing it boingggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. I feel there is a bit of this going on. You need to load the arm with energy to give that initial inertia and release it while stiffening it and try to maintain it and keep the movement going. The one mistake I see a lot is students who try to ease into the tremolo without any attack all the while trying to speed up their strokes. it sounds like much and all over the place without that initiall attack.

PaulS - 10-30-2014 at 07:52 PM

What a helpful discussion. I have some thoughts too--as someone who is just beginning to have a tremolo but not with consistency.
My analogy is to learning to ride a bike: when you are learning it is a very complex set of skills and getting them all to work at the same time seems difficult. Once you get it, you wonder what was so difficult.
It seems to be definitely about a combination of attack (with energy) and a relaxation of the arm which allows for the flow of the tremolo to happen.
But risha type also seems involved. My teacher suggested I leave the hard cow horn risha and go to a thinner type--basically pvc sanded down carefully--that everyone uses here. That also seems to help.
It seems that some perfect combination of grip and flexibility are required.
I have also done a lot of slow up down trying to speed up and I think that that contributes.
What is most difficult is shifting into and out of a tremolo stroke in a passage....
Ah well...it is a worthwhile thing to work on...

Wow, thank you!

nard - 11-2-2014 at 11:02 AM

Hi all,

Wow, thank you for this wonderful advice! I like hearing the different perspectives as well as thinking about the different variables (risha, position of fingers, the "spring" tactic) and so on.

I was inspired to try it with 3 different reeshas I have - one plastic from amazon.com, one plastic from Oudstrings.com, and one cowhorn from amazon.com. I recorded it and uploaded it to YouTube in case anyone has feedback on how to improve the technique - you can here the "snags" and gap in the sound, and I'm not really sure what's going on when that happens.

You can see here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBumb15URco&feature=youtu.be

Looking forward to more wisdom... thank you!

Jody Stecher - 11-2-2014 at 11:48 AM

I cannot see your arm so I cannot be sure but it looks to me that you are trying to move too much bone and flesh. It looks like you are trying to do tremolo with your entire arm and with a stiff wrist. The wrist is the hinge that allows the "sprooiiing" to take place. The wrist needs to be released if it is locked. Also it looks as though your upstroke is using more muscle than is necessary. Let your hand "bounce" on the rebound to position the risha for the next downstroke. By doing that (along with *some* muscle) the upstroke almost plays itself. It also looks like both down and up strokes are covering more territory than necessary. A finer, smaller, movement will produce better results.

If I may say so, tuning the pairs in true unison (rather than "nearly the same") will produce a relaxing effect on your mind and that will relax your hand and arm.
Quote: Originally posted by nard  
Hi all,

Wow, thank you for this wonderful advice! I like hearing the different perspectives as well as thinking about the different variables (risha, position of fingers, the "spring" tactic) and so on.

I was inspired to try it with 3 different reeshas I have - one plastic from amazon.com, one plastic from Oudstrings.com, and one cowhorn from amazon.com. I recorded it and uploaded it to YouTube in case anyone has feedback on how to improve the technique - you can here the "snags" and gap in the sound, and I'm not really sure what's going on when that happens.

You can see here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBumb15URco&feature=youtu.be

Looking forward to more wisdom... thank you!

franck leriche - 11-2-2014 at 11:50 AM

Too bad we can't see your full arm, but it looks like you're moving the whole arm.
You wrist is super stiff. You definitely need to practice slowly and relax you wrist.
It would be nice if you could make a video practicing down and up strokes slowly to see if you have the same issue.

Lysander - 11-2-2014 at 12:08 PM

I'm with franck on this one. I skimmed the video and it looks like you're trying to move your whole arm to achieve tremolo. Tremolo is an action most successfully played from a loose, relaxed wrist. It is not achieved from the elbow. The more relaxed you are - your whole body - but mostly your right wrist and arm, and your left hand, your shoulders etc, the more successfully you can play.

Brian Prunka - 11-2-2014 at 12:13 PM

Frank and Jody's observations are in line with my own—your whole arm is moving up and down (possibly from the elbow, possibly from the shoulder, or both).

Jody and I have had this discussion before, but I disagree with his characterization as the movement coming from the wrist—it is the rotation of the forearm. We actually agree on the correct motion (I think), just not in how to describe it.

In addition, it looks like you are attempting to play with the risha's tip flat with respect to the strings—this won't work. You need the risha to be at an angle to the strings.

Rather than working on unmeasured tremolo (as we normally play—the motion is not in tempo, just as fast as you can), you should work on measured tremolo first. Play up/down with a metronome, starting very slow and gradually increasing the speed.

I find Samir's comment interesting—in my experience the more common problem is starting with too much of an initial attack, which causes the start of tremolo to sound jumpy and uneven. But I can see the other way being a problem too.

Tremolo is mysterious—it seems impossible at first but if you just practice slow, relaxed up/down with correct technique it just comes out eventually.

nard - 11-2-2014 at 12:20 PM

This is all very amazing advice, especially the points about arm v. wrist v. forearm. I can see this requires returning back to some basics, as some folks have suggested here. I will re-visit and return to the forum after experimenting a little, perhaps with a video with a wider viewing angle. Thank you!

Brian Prunka - 11-2-2014 at 01:03 PM

Do you have a teacher? Or at least a more experienced oudist you could get together with? This is something that is difficult to learn strictly on your own. Even just seeing someone up close doing it is helpful . . .

Jody Stecher - 11-2-2014 at 02:25 PM

I think it likely that Brian and I are making the same motion. Here is why I describe it as I do: The wrist hand can move from the wrist in several ways. If the arm and hand are held straight so that the back of the hand and the corresponding part of the arm are on a continuous plane, the only way the wrist can move the hand is from side to side; call it "right/left" perhaps. The forearm is relatively still and unchanging during this motion. Now if the hinge of the wrist is relaxed so that the hand bends in a similar way as the peghead of an oud forms an angle to the plane of the neck and fingerboard, a new form of movement is introduced. Once a bit of angle has been introduced and the player makes the very same "right/left" motion that was made with an unbent wrist, it will be seen that the forearm also moves. The move to the right creates a downstroke. As it moves, the underside of the hand vanishes from sight and so does the underside of the forearm. When the player reverses and moves the hand-with-the-bent wrist to the left, this creates an upstroke, and this upstroke as it proceeds reveals more and more of the underside of the forearm. The movement of the forearm feels —to me, at least— to be a *consequence* of the wrist motion and not the *cause* of the motions that cause the down and up strokes of the risha.
Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  


Jody and I have had this discussion before, but I disagree with his characterization as the movement coming from the wrist—it is the rotation of the forearm. We actually agree on the correct motion (I think), just not in how to describe it.
/rquote]

Brian Prunka - 11-2-2014 at 02:45 PM

You describe it well, Jody, and I can see why you think of it as you do. However, do you not agree that it might be confusing to describe it as wrist motion when in fact your hand is not moving at the wrist? I think that you are correct in your analysis of the motion, however, in the end it is the forearm that rotates and the wrist itself remains essentially fixed (except to switch strings, as I noted in the previous thread). Even in your description, you are talking about moving the hand/wrist as one unit, not the wrist joint itself. Still, you are right about what it "feels" like.

Jody Stecher - 11-2-2014 at 04:48 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  
You describe it well, Jody, and I can see why you think of it as you do. However, do you not agree that it might be confusing to describe it as wrist motion when in fact your hand is not moving at the wrist? I think that you are correct in your analysis of the motion, however, in the end it is the forearm that rotates and the wrist itself remains essentially fixed (except to switch strings, as I noted in the previous thread). Even in your description, you are talking about moving the hand/wrist as one unit, not the wrist joint itself. Still, you are right about what it "feels" like.


You are right about what it looks like. I have just verified that. But to answer your question about what would be confusing I will have to contemplate it for a day or two. In general I find it confusing to try to repeat an action according to what it looks like and easier to do it according to what it feels like. But then I have never claimed to be "normal". In this specific instance, which is trying to repeat an action according to a written description, I just now tested it and found that if I try to generate the oud playing motion from the forearm, that the entire forearm moves and that is more motion than the job requires.

However, in apparent contradiction to what I have just written, I learned my right hand technique, many years ago from watching oud players up close and imitating their motions and to me it looked as though the motion originated in the wrist.

Anyway, we have now verified that we each play oud with the same right hand technique.

SamirCanada - 11-3-2014 at 04:17 AM

I made a simple video with an exercise I find works for me. Going up and down scales. http://youtu.be/T7B04gWo270


Also I noticed in the video you started some tremolos on the upstroke. I think this is a mistake. Maybe some advanced players can develop a way to make it sound good but I don't think so.

I really like what Brian and Frank said and they are related. Use specific time measures basically hold the tremolo for 2 beats at first then extend to 3 and then 4. This is I portant because it's rare you will hold tremolos in music for much longer and it gets you used to structure. I find beginners also hold tremolos to slide between notes, this also rarely happens in the traditional music played on Oud.
I agree with Frank very much that it's like when training athletics if you don't take breaks or try to hold the tremolo to long you get tired and your form will suffer.

New video

nard - 11-8-2014 at 09:38 AM

Hi all!

Thank you, Samir, for the video, and Jody, Brian, and everyone else for the great advice.

I recorded a new video trying some of these exercises with a wider viewing angle so that more of the arm is visible. Downside is now you can't really see the risha but at least you can see the arm motions.

I am still not really sure I understand whether I'm correctly using my wrist/forearm as opposed to elbow. Hopefully this helps...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqdvWv5CFz0

Thanks everyone for being generous with your time and expertise.

Best wishes,
nard

Jody Stecher - 11-8-2014 at 10:08 AM

On the plus side
a) it looks like you are using less arm than appeared to be the case in the previous video.

b) compared to the previous video, fewer pairs of strings are out of tune.

On the minus side
a) you are not doing the same timing as Samir.

b) you are beginning your tremolo with an upstroke. Practice as slowly as you need to go so that your mind can keep track of what is up and what is down and so that you are sure you are starting with down.

abc123xyz - 11-8-2014 at 02:07 PM

You know, the technique of tremolo on the oud deserves a whole book of its own, and is very similar, if not identical, to what the guitarists have recently started referring to as "sarod picking", one of them having apparently observed the technique being used on the sarod and finding it superior to whatever method guitarists normally use.

There are numerous videos by guitarists on Youtube trying to explain the technique, and some of them might be useful to anybody trying to master tremolo on the oud, their being intended for guitar not withstanding.

Basically, and I say basically because I'm sure there's more to it than I realize or describe here, the forearm rapidly rotates clockwise then counterclockwise again and again while staying more or less stationary horizontally. There's muscle tension in the arm, and in the hand to maintain a hold on the plectrum, but the wrist joint itself is kept loose, acting as a sort of shock absorber.

Having muscle tension in the forearm and in the hand, but not in the wrist in between them, is somewhat unnatural for the human body, and is part of the reason the technique is difficult to learn.

When the wrist is stiff, the plectrum tends to "trip" on or "snag" the string every third or forth pass across the string, I suppose due to microscopic differences in the angle at which it hits the strings each time that are different from the last, where the string is in its oscillatory cycle, etc. However if the wrist is loose and the hand is able to give very slightly with each strike, there is some accommodation between the plectrum and string that eliminates catching.

The arm and hand actions involved are so minute and therefore rather difficult to see on video.

My own tremolo's far from perfect, but I discovered how to do it accidentally. I was trying to play several downstrokes quickly in succession, but my fingernail (I don't use a plectrum) would strike the string again on the way back up, producing a perfect tremolo. As soon as I tried to play a tremolo that way, however, I would trip and catch on the string again as usual, lol. For this reason I suspect that maybe the wrist stiffens slightly on the downstroke part of the tremolo, or alternately more force is exerted by the forearm muscle at that point, I'm not sure which.

This is one of those things I think would profit from attaching electrodes to the arms of a few oud maestros and making x-rays videos of them while they play, lol.

David

Jody Stecher - 11-8-2014 at 03:10 PM

Quote: Originally posted by abc123xyz  
You know, the technique of tremolo on the oud deserves a whole book of its own, and is very similar, if not identical, to what the guitarists have recently started referring to as "sarod picking",

Which is particularly remarkable since it has nothing whatever to do with sarod right hand technique. Not only do they misidentify the technique, they mispronounce sarod to rhyme with clod and plod instead of road and mode.


Basically, and I say basically because I'm sure there's more to it than I realize or describe here, the forearm rapidly rotates clockwise then counterclockwise again

[iThat will result in up/down instead of down/up. Up/down works for finger tremolo but in my opinion is not the best way to learn plectrum tremolo. .




abc123xyz - 11-8-2014 at 03:34 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  

That is backwards and will result in up/down instead of down/up

Yes, you're right. I didn't give any thought to which direction one should start with, I only thought to try to describe the back-and-forth movement.

David

Jody Stecher - 11-8-2014 at 03:42 PM

Quote: Originally posted by abc123xyz  
Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  

That is backwards and will result in up/down instead of down/up

Yes, you're right. I didn't give any thought to which direction one should start with, I only thought to try to describe the back-and-forth movement.

David


Starting with up works well for finger tremolo because the stronger stroke is in/up and the weaker stroke is out/down. With a plectrum the up stroke fights gravity but if preceded by a down stroke one gets the benefit of the sproing effect as the hand automatically springs up to begin a new down stroke.

abc123xyz - 11-8-2014 at 03:44 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  

Which is particularly remarkable since it has nothing whatever to do with sarod right hand technique. Not only do they misidentify the technique, they mispronounce sarod to rhyme with clod and plod instead of road and mode.

Really nothing? I've never played the sarod or guitar myself, but the tremolo certainly looks and sounds much the same to me.

Are you saying only that sarod technique has nothing to do with what guitarists call "sarod picking", or that it has nothing to do with oud tremolo either?

David

abc123xyz - 11-8-2014 at 03:54 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  

Starting with up works well for finger tremolo because the stronger stroke is in/up and the weaker stroke is out/down. With a plectrum the up stroke fights gravity but if preceded by a down stroke one gets the benefit of the sproing effect as the hand automatically springs up to begin a new down stroke.

I do start with a downstroke myself, and the downstroke is my stronger stroke, as I press my thumb to my index finger to reinforce it and don't normally move it separate of the whole hand. I also use my forearm to impel the motion, not a "pinching" or "come-here" motion of the index.

I just didn't give any thought, as I say, to which of clockwise and counterclockwise one would start with to make a down stroke :·)

I suppose it's possible that what I do would be incorrect if using a plectrum (?).

David

AhmedT - 11-10-2014 at 02:31 PM

Hi There,
Alot of the responses and demonstrations on this thread are spot on. I have read such explanations on forums and from live teachers many times but kept on struggling with Tremelo simply because no one seems to convey how to actually practice it, what to expect, and how to actually gauge your progress.

I have struggled for many months with this (I came to Oud from Guitar as many people here) and Tremelo, to me, was the defining oud sound (I still think that, but I’ve also realized there’s much more to the sound than just that :-)). Here’s my take on the subject after having made decent progress over the last 2 months.

Some theory before we go to practice:

- Tremelo is 99% wrist movement. If your forearm is moving be suspicious.

- The wrist movement we’re after is not forceful its more like the wrist (with the risha) is falling using only gravity then bouncing up again after hitting an invisible trampoline.

- This is a fine motor skill that will require a lot of practice before it becomes effortless and without any tension.

- The perfect tremolo is even. You will never hear the sound you’re expecting until the strokes are evenly tempered AND timed. This too shall take time. Patience is a good thing in this endeavour :-D

Here’s what finally worked for me after a lot of frustration:

- The basic building block of tremolo is a down/up stroke. If you cannot execute this perfectly 10 out 10 times; no tremolo for you.

- To break it down further the up/down stroke is a down followed by an up stroke so lets start with the down stroke!

- Your down stroke should fall from slightly above the string and rest on the the string below. Remember that you wrist/risha is falling using gravity not force.
- What you’re looking for is a relaxed stroke, a comfortable rest on the string below, and above all an even sound (i.e. it should sound exactly the same every time - remember this is music and we should be using our ear as a guide to how we sound - easier said than done :-)).

- The upstroke should be the mirror image of the downstroke as if your risha bounced back from its resting place on the string below the one you just struck.
- You will notice that the upstroke will not sound exactly the same as the downstrock due to the fact that we have double strings + the angle of stroke. The downstroke hits at a different angle than the up stroke. This is why the downstroke is the heart of the oud sound (my opinion!).

PRACTICE TIPS:
- Perform the motion described above on the downstroke and up stroke.
- Watch your wrist, hand, and arm. Be attentive. Repetition without attentiveness is a waste of time (I wasted ALOT of time with this one so I’m really sour about it :)).
- Be VERY VERY SLOW. Cannot stress this enough. Let your brain soak up the motion in slow motion. You are programming your brain.
- Practice in front of a mirror and be critical of your motion - Focus Focus Focus and ask these questions to yourself:
- Is there any tension in my body ANYWHERE? If so, try to focus on the tension in the next stroke and relax it.
- Can I see in the mirror that my motion is the same every time? If not, ask yourself; what is different and why? What sounds better. Analyze analyze analyze.
- Repeat……

- Once you get the basic down/up stroke solid, consistent, and sounding confident you’ve done 80% of the work. The rest is speed. The reason the first step is important is that if you speed up sloppy down/up you get choppy, uneven, tense tremolo that you can struggle with for months. Don’t do that. I did it and spent much more time than I wanted to :-).

- How to speed up:
- Use a Metronome. No way around this.
- Begin with something slow. Say 40 (or even 30 or lower if you can’t feel comfortable).
- Do an down/up stroke per beat.
- DO NOT use your left hand at all yet. Just open strings.
- Don’t practice on the lowest string (first from the floor) as it doesn’t have a string below it and is slightly more challenging if your motion is not yet automatic.
- Use a mirror and perform the same critical routine described above.
- Do not increase the tempo until you can do the down/up flawlessly for at least 1 minute (I recommend 3 minutes!).
- Increase the tempo when you pass the 1 min/ 3 min test :-).
- At about 80 bpm, go back to 40 bpm and instead of down/up per beat; do down/up down/up per beat. (4 strokes per beat).
- get to 80 bpm again with 4 strokes per beat.
- Go back to 40 and do 6 strokes per beat and repeat the progression till you go to 80
- drop back to 40 and do 8 strokes per beat.

- You should know what to do next from here :-D.

- Do this every day for 15 minutes (if you want to do more absolutely go for it, but remember to take rest often. The kind of focus I’m talking about here will make you very tired after 15 minutes!).
- When you begin to feel more confident begin to use your left hand (i.e. practice tremolo on maqams and perform ascending and descending patterns).

- Some additional challenges you will meet on the way:
- Tremelo across adjacent strings continuously.
- Use the same practice principles above and slow down. Isolate the motion and problems and gradually increase speed.
- Tremelo across non adjacent strings (i.e. hitting a low C note then high C - you hear this on records and it sounds as if they both happen at the same time - its just REALLY fast motion that can be mastered in time!).
- Tremelo bursts
- Will come in time and after you master the movement. Starting and stoping your wrist will be much easier and natural


- Some final words:
- Practicing sloppy sounding strokes in our zeal to get better and faster is essentially practicing our mistakes. You will become great at consistently making your mistakes. Don’t do that :-).

- Tension in your body (this requires focus to notice) is a sign of trouble. It usually means you’re doing something faster than you should. Slow down and watch for tension. Resolve your tension before moving forward.

- This worked for me and took about 2 months with practice every day (I did skip some days to be honest!).

- As you get better at this, you should focus more and more on economy of motion. Wide/far flung movements work against speed. So if you find that you are moving to far from the strings with your risha, work on shortening distances. A few millimetres of savings add up to some serious millage in your Oud playing life :-).

- To express yourself on a musical instrument thought has to be completely vanquished. I had a guitar teacher that used to repeat an Allan Watts quote “When we lose our minds we come to our senses”. This can only happen through diligent practice so that we are not thinking about what our fingers or wrists are doing. Think of it like speech. There’s no gap between your intent to express yourself and words coming out of your mouth. That’s what we should aim for as we practice. Like a child learning to talk, this takes time and practice.

- I wrote this because I wished I could find it somewhere when I was looking. There are FAR better players on this forum than me. I hope they can refine this and correct it for the sake of humanity :D.


Thank you for reading all of my babbling. I hope it helps someone.

Jody Stecher - 11-10-2014 at 03:56 PM

Quote: Originally posted by abc123xyz  
Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  

Which is particularly remarkable since it has nothing whatever to do with sarod right hand technique. Not only do they misidentify the technique, they mispronounce sarod to rhyme with clod and plod instead of road and mode.

Really nothing? I've never played the sarod or guitar myself, but the tremolo certainly looks and sounds much the same to me.

Are you saying only that sarod technique has nothing to do with what guitarists call "sarod picking", or that it has nothing to do with oud tremolo either?

David


what I meant was that what a few youtube guitarists are pleased to call "sah-rodd" and "saaah road" picking is not characteristic of sarode playing. A down followed an up is of course typical of all string instruments that are played with a plectrum. The sarode is no exception. Other than down and up there is no connection between the misidentified youtube guitar technique and sarode technique. Sarode players DO NOT move their thumb and index finger when picking down and up. They do not hold the pick at an angle, at least not at the angle that the misinformed guitarists claim they do. They NEVER point the thumb downwards. Basic sarode right hand is explained here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCOKzfyRtxg

There is no tremolo in sarod music.

Sarod music does include some rapid down/up but it is not tremolo. Tremolo is the art of making a short sustain instrument play long notes. Also the sound of the tremolo is itself attractive and decorative. Tremolo in oud phrases is typically used in combination with plain strokes. There is nothing like that in north indian classical raga instrumental music, including sarode. Most sarod picking is patterned and involves cross rhythms and combinations of two and three. Tremolo is not part of the North Indian classical music aesthetic (although the increasing popularity of the santur in India may change that one day). When sarode players play rapid down and up motions it is to play very fast music. The exactness and evenness of the rhythm is the point. In Indian raga music rapid down up is not done in slow music as tremolo often is in other musics, including on oud. In tremolo on string instruments the more it sounds like a blur ( an artful blur, not a sloppy blur) the more successful it is. In North Indian string technique the more you can hear the separateness of the strokes the more successful it is, and it is always done for rhythmic effect.

Pointing the thumb down and moving the thumb and index up and down during rapid picking is also not a part of oud technique. Not of tremolo or of anything else.

So to answer your question, I meant both choices.

Jody Stecher - 11-10-2014 at 03:58 PM

AhmedT, there is so much good sense and insight in what you have written. I disagree with 2% of it but it's not important. Well done!

abc123xyz - 11-10-2014 at 07:37 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  
Basic sarode right hand is explained here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCOKzfyRtxg

Oh, that's Apu Agarwal, is it not? :·D

We know him from the Chandrakantha forum :·)

David

AhmedT - 11-11-2014 at 07:52 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  
AhmedT, there is so much good sense and insight in what you have written. I disagree with 2% of it but it's not important. Well done!


Glad its useful :-). In general I think there's a lot to be said about practicing a musical instrument regardless of the technique in question or the instrument itself. Based on my own experience and watching other students I think most of us waste 99% of our practice time :-).

Concepts like focus, attention to movement, & critical analysis of everything are very difficult to grasp by so many people (myself included for a long time), yet some just have it.... It comes naturally to them.

Thank you!

nard - 11-11-2014 at 07:54 AM

Dear AhmedT,

Thank you for this meticulous detail. You are correct - a lot of people had great advice about what to focus on (motions, relaxing, etc.) but this is the most specific advice on practical method I have received. It sounds to me a lot like the exercise Brian Prunka has posted on his website, but spelled out in more detail for people having trouble with tremolo.

What is especially helpful is the advice to slow down and return to fundamentals, focusing on minute motions and tensions - obviously frantic flagellation hasn't worked for me so I'm hoping this will.

One thing that has always surprised me is the notion that down stroke must rest on the string below it -- in practice, when folks are actually playing songs and performing tremolo, does the reesha actually hit the lower course every single down stroke? Or is this just a learning device?

Thanks so much for your insights!

Best wishes,
nard

nard - 11-11-2014 at 08:01 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  
On the plus side
a) it looks like you are using less arm than appeared to be the case in the previous video.

b) compared to the previous video, fewer pairs of strings are out of tune.

On the minus side
a) you are not doing the same timing as Samir.

b) you are beginning your tremolo with an upstroke. Practice as slowly as you need to go so that your mind can keep track of what is up and what is down and so that you are sure you are starting with down.



Dear Jody,

Thank you for watching the video and providing me with these pointers.

Just a point of clarification to make sure I understand - on Brian Prunka's website, the tremolo drill begins with two down strokes - the first on a longer note, the second on a note of 1/2 length that then becomes a series of down/up strokes. When you say start on the down stroke, do you mean the very first note or both the first and second note? Maybe I'm going in circles in my head now - but should there be 2 downstrokes before the first up or just 1?

I have to listen to Samir's video a little more closely to correct my timing. Thanks for pointing this out.

With respect to tuning - you made a comment about this earlier and I should have taken you up on the offer to probe further. I use a Snark SN-2 tuner (not because I'm a guitarist, oud is my first instrument) and I try to tune both strings to the same point on the tuner. Is this frowned upon? Should I be using another method? And -- is the reason you point it out because tuning affects playability (not just sound) of the tremolo?

Thank you!
nard

Jody Stecher - 11-11-2014 at 08:27 AM

Nard, what i meant is that when playing tremolo —in any context —not just in a specific exercise— always begin with a downstroke. The tremolo itself may be preceded by anything. A down, an up, twenty seven downstrokes, forty three sideways strokes, whatever. If you begin your tremolo with an upstroke you are beginning by fighting gravity. If an upstroke is preceded by a downstroke it gets help from a rebound affect. So it's better to start tremolo with a down stroke. I was not talking about any particular drill or exercise. I was not talking about any strokes that precede tremolo in a drill, exercise, or taqsim, or musical composition.

Tuners do have problems, as I have said before on this forum. But the problem here is not the tuner. The problem is that you are *not* tuning each member of each pair to the tuner. Some of your double courses are tuned in unison. Some are not. It is not enough to use the eyes to tune. you must use the ears.

Tuning well does not affect playability. It affects listenablity.

Brian Prunka - 11-11-2014 at 06:40 PM

This exercise?



Jeez, I didn't even realize that that stuff was still up there.

Anyway, while those are picking exercises which are helpful for developing tremolo, none of them are actually tremolo themselves—they're just preparation for tremolo. Actual tremolo is all down-up as Jody notes.

SamirCanada - 11-11-2014 at 07:00 PM

I will give you my trick for tuning the oud, tune the first string of each pair with your tuner, tune the other string of that pair by ear until the sounds are equal to your ear.

Also, my video is just a simple warm up exercise I sometimes do before I play. its more important to develop a structure than to do ramdom tremolos, so if say you decide you want to precede your tremolo in your exercise with 2 downstrokes do that, if you decide its going to be 2 up and down strokes then start your tremolo thats fine too. the important part is that you have control of the exercise and that you are thinking what you are playing in a structured way.

even better than those exercises I find is to practice certain pieces of the classical repertoire and imitate the professional players.

A piece to practise tremolo with

oudistcamp - 11-11-2014 at 08:53 PM

Al Bahaara - Marcel Khalife

You must use the metronome when studying tremelo with this piece.
Begin the learning process very slowly so the tremelo notes are longer and you can comfortably fit in more notes.
My teacher used this piece to build my tremelo 2 years ago, and I still go back to it each month to see where I stand.
You can choose to play just a few of the tremelo notes when you are starting off, and add a few more each week. After a few months, you can add on even more techniques associated with tremelos.
While practising, don't forget: heed all the wonderful advise above from forum members.

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Julia Germany - 6-27-2019 at 05:31 AM

Hi all, I discovered this thread today when searching the web for advice on tremolo. I was pretty desparate, since I thought I should be able to perform a perfect tremolo by now (have started playing the Oud 9 months ago) and it just doesn't turn out, whatever I try. I was about to give up.

Thanks to everyone here for all the valuable advice, now I know that I am not the only one having problems with the tremolo, and I am really motivated to keep trying. THANKS!

Fellow Beginner Tips

MoH - 6-30-2019 at 05:03 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Julia Germany  
Hi all, I discovered this thread today when searching the web for advice on tremolo. I was pretty desparate, since I thought I should be able to perform a perfect tremolo by now (have started playing the Oud 9 months ago) and it just doesn't turn out, whatever I try. I was about to give up.

Thanks to everyone here for all the valuable advice, now I know that I am not the only one having problems with the tremolo, and I am really motivated to keep trying. THANKS!


I started playing oud around the same time you did, and I also still have some issues with tremolo. Here's some things I've learned, some of which people have already mentioned:

Tremolo comes with consistent practice. No matter how bad it may seem now, it will definitely improve over time if you try it every day. For me, if I haven't practiced oud a couple days, it takes me a long time to get my tremolo "back".

Try practicing tremolo close to the bridge, then move out farther as you get comfortable. It may not sound good, since the strings are very rigid in that area, but you'll probably have an easier time getting a clean tremolo there.

Also, I think tremolo is easiest to do on the nylon g string, and it becomes easier in my opinion if you play a note like b flat on it since it "tightens" the string a little. Of course, you should eventually be able to play tremolo on any open or fingered string, but I think that's a good place to start.

Of course, I'm a beginner like you, so maybe this is all wrong, but good luck!