Mike's Oud Forums

Austrian Airlines & Ouds

DavidJE - 7-24-2015 at 07:00 AM

I'm flying from Vienna, Austria to the US in a couple of days and was planning on bringing an oud. I've been excited about bringing it, not only to play it, but because my family is all in the US and I wanted to play for them, etc.. I booked the tickets through United (using frequent flier miles), and when I called United to check on their policies regarding musical instruments, they said it was no problem as long as it would fit in the overhead bin or under the seat.

Well, today I called Austrian just to make sure it would be ok...assuming it would...and they said that if the oud/oud case is larger than their standard carry-on bag dimensions (and it is WAY over) I will have to purchase another seat. They said it doesn't matter if it fits in the overhead bin or not (it does fit)! This is really frustrating. I'm flying business class, so I'll even have a bin all to myself.

I've read that people have been able to get guitars in the cabin, despite their policies stating otherwise. But the guy I talked to and the information on their website clearly states otherwise. If I remember correctly, I THINK I may have also traveled once via Austrian with an oud. I could bring it to check-in and see what they say, and give it to my wife to keep here in Vienna if they say no. But then if I have a problem on my connecting flight in the US on the way back to Vienna...if I'm in transit and they say no...I would be screwed.

Have any of you traveled with an oud on Austrian? Thoughts?

Loaner Oud

oudistcamp - 7-24-2015 at 08:01 AM

If you can let us know which city you will be going to in the US, perhaps one of us could offer a loaner oud to you. Just an idea....
I would be happy to do that if you are planning to visit the Bay Area.
The international (Europe) max dimensions is much less than those going to Asia, or US. They offer to take ski equipment, golf caddies etc.....but musical instruments....nyet!

DavidJE - 7-24-2015 at 08:13 AM

Thank you oudistcamp. I'm flying to New Orleans. Actually, I have a really crappy oud in New Orleans. It's painful to play for me because it's such a piece of junk. My family and friends in New Orleans think it sounds good, but that's one of the things I dislike...that they've never heard a decent oud in person. My custom single Türünz oud not only sounds infinitely better, but it is also beautiful. So I wanted them to be able to see that oud in particular.

I'm still thinking about just risking it...seeing if they allow me to check it in on my way to the US. Then since United will take it form New Orleans to New Jersey, I figure there's more chance of them honoring the policy of the first airline on the way back to Austria.

Jody Stecher - 7-24-2015 at 08:27 AM

After a lifetime of air travel as a professional musician I can say with certainty that the stated policies of any airline and the realities at any airport have no connection with each other. A lenient policy towards carry-on instruments may be ignored at the airport. A strict policy (nothing larger than an onion may be carried on board) may be ignored at the airport. It always up to the whim of the employee you happen to encounter. And sometimes an airport itself has different policies from the various airlines that fly from it. This was the case in Hong Kong in 1990. I had no trouble bringing my guitar on board flying from San Francisco to Hong Kong, but leaving Hong Kong I could not get it past security. I had to go find an United employee with higher status than the security supervisor and he walked me passed the official who turned me down, causing her to lose face and saving my 19th century guitar from certain destruction. I would say that if you can get the oud (preferably in a soft case) as far as the gate you may be able to get it on board, especially in business class. The soft case is valuable because it is obvious that it cannot protect the instrument in the baggage hold. There are four things you must do.

1) under no circumstances must you discuss the oud at check in. Don't even let the airline employees see the oud. Leave it with your wife out of sight. Once you have cleared security and are at the gate, half the battle is won.

2)Waiting to board and upon your behavior must be calm and confident. Act as though you own the airline. Don't look sneaky or furtive. Walk on board carrying the oud as if it were no more unusual than a computer bag and as if you do this every day. Do nothing to call attention to yourself. You are businessman flying business class. The oud is none of their business.

3) you must memorize a four word sentence (to be translated into German for your outbound flight): "That's Not An Option".
This is what you say if and when the nasty stewardess or steward says you must check the oud as baggage.

In business class however you are unlikely to be challenged.

4) At the boarding gate never never ever *ask* if carrying the oud on board is ok. They love to say NO. Don't give them the opportunity. What they want is smooth boarding. Remember this at all times. If your carrying the oud on board makes boarding smooth and hassle free then they like it. If it breaks the flow they dislike it. Don't ask for permission. Remember : you own the damn airline!

Your backup plan in Vienna will only work if your wife remains at the airport until she receives a phone call from you on the airplane saying it's OK

There is also plan B. Take the oud in a hard case. Pack it securely inside the case so the oud will not shift. Put the case in a cardboard box stuffed with wadded up newspapers (or all your clothing) so that the oud in its case and the case in the box are suspended/floating, with no outer walls of the oud case touching the inner walls of the box. Check the box as checked luggage. Pay the fee if there is one. It will be far less than a seat for the oud.

GOOD LUCK

Jody Stecher - 7-24-2015 at 08:30 AM

Quote: Originally posted by DavidJE  
My custom single Türünz oud not only sounds infinitely better, .


Türünz ouds are shipped out of Istanbul in a trim cardboard box that protects the oud in its case very well. If you have that box, use it! and check the oud.

jdowning - 7-24-2015 at 12:00 PM

Sounds like good advice in this day and age but how times have changed. This is just as an amusing experience as an aside.

In 1965 returning from post Suez Cairo to London I checked in at Cairo airport for a mid night flight with my recently purchased old oud stuck in a brown paper bag for 'protection'. In those days there were few travellers visiting Egypt so I had a whole row of seats to myself on the DH Comet aircraft. So with the oud in its paper bag sharing a seat beside me (at no extra cost) I had a nice relaxing breakfast over the Alps viewed on a clear morning, prior to arrival at London Heathrow.
Passing through customs the official's immediate attention was drawn to the paper bag. "What's in the bag?" he asked "It's an Egyptian oud" I proudly replied. "What's that?" he coldly responded "A musical instrument" I said. "Ah!, musical instruments carry a multitude of taxes amounting to 80% of the sales price" he said with some relish - "how much did you pay for it?". "I paid £12 Egyptian (then about £4 sterling). Taking pity he then said "did you haggle or beat down the seller's asking price" - "No". "Ok, let's value the oud at £5 sterling (so disregarding the exchange rate!) - so you owe us £5 sterling Duty to bring the instrument in to the country". A bit 'miffed' at this unexpected drain on my wallet I took some solace in the fact that the official was so engrossed with the oud that he didn't ask about all the other - no doubt taxable - stuff I had in my luggage!
"What kept you" said my wife!

Sorry - the post just brought back some memories! Happy days!

DavidJE - 7-24-2015 at 12:27 PM

Thank you Jody. I appreciate the advice, but that sounds like a very risky plan. If I only had the oud in a soft case, what happens if they tell me I cannot bring it on board??? Then I'd just have to abandon the flight, which would be a real problem not to mention the cost...especially if it happened in the middle of my trip.

I bought all of my ouds in Istanbul and flew back with them (Turkish or Pegasus) to Vienna. So all I have are the hard cases. I could borrow a soft case from a friend, but I guess that knowing the rules explicitly state that it will not be allowed on board without purchasing another seat, I'm better off not risking that.

Jody Stecher - 7-24-2015 at 02:30 PM

Quote: Originally posted by DavidJE  
Thank you Jody. I appreciate the advice, but that sounds like a very risky plan. If I only had the oud in a soft case, what happens if they tell me I cannot bring it on board???


Then you telephone your wife and she meets you at the security line and you hand it off to her and hurry back to the airplane. But i know the Türünz hard cases. They are sufficiently trim looking to carry on board, and yes, they should fit easily in most overhead compartments and they are smaller than many of the smaller roller suitcases that the airlines allow as carry-on.

majnuunNavid - 7-24-2015 at 08:27 PM

Jody's words are pure wisdom from experience!! I like it!

DavidJE - 7-24-2015 at 09:36 PM

Quote:
Then you telephone your wife and she meets you at the security line and you hand it off to her and hurry back to the airplane. But i know the Türünz hard cases. They are sufficiently trim looking to carry on board, and yes, they should fit easily in most overhead compartments and they are smaller than many of the smaller roller suitcases that the airlines allow as carry-on.


Thanks Jody. Yes, I know the Türünz case will fit in the overhead for sure. And I'm not nearly as concerned about getting on the plane TO the US. If they don't let me on I can give the oud back to my wife. My primary concern is on the way back. I know United will let me take it on from New Orleans to New Jersey, but if they tell me I can't put it in the overhead in New Jersey...then I'm stuck there. I'd lose my ticket back home, have to buy another one, and I'd have to figure out some way to get my oud back. That just doesn't seem like an acceptable risk.

I read on the Austrian site that it's possible to take an instrument on-board if you get written permission, which requires a fee. I assume that means what they told me on the phone...paying the price of another seat. But I wrote them and explained that I will have a bin to myself and my instrument fits in the bin...so...can I bring it on-board? If I don't get some kind of assurance I'm leaning toward not risking it.

EDIT: After thinking about this a bit more, I think I'm just going to go for it, taking Jody's advice but with the hard case. I'll let you guys know how it goes.

Jody Stecher - 7-25-2015 at 05:14 AM

here is the experience of one traveller on Austrian airlines in 2008

http://www.klauskomenda.com/archives/2008/03/06/taking-a-guitar-on-...

his experience is his, and it was then. and my experience is mine. no guarantee you will have the same one. my personal opinion is that business class gives you an advantage.

DavidJE - 7-25-2015 at 05:58 AM

Thanks Jody. I saw that when I first searched. It's from 2008, and as you said...no guarantee I will have the same experience. But I'm going to go for it. My wife is going to hold my oud so they don't even see it when I check in. Then if they tell me anything at the gate I will tell them that I was told it was ok because I have an entire overhead bin to myself and it fits in the overhead bin. We'll see how it goes...

Jody Stecher - 7-25-2015 at 06:39 AM

Good luck ! The odds are on your side. a bigger worry is how your Faruk T oud will hold up in the intense heat and humidity of New Orleans. I hope your pegs don't seize up (from the wood swelling from the moisture). By the way, I dunno about New Orleans, but the prairies of southwest Louisiana have long had a Lebanese population and there are oudists (and ouds) amongst them even today.

DavidJE - 7-25-2015 at 08:13 AM

Well, I won't be playing outdoors! The temperature and humidity here in Vienna has surprisingly been even worse recently than in New Orleans. I think we've had three heat waves (nearly a week each) with temps going above 100F and high humidity. And here we don't really have AC. So the conditions in our place are about the same as outside. In New Orleans on the other hand, everything is climate controlled.

I did not know about the Lebanese in southwest Louisiana, but then I've spent almost no time in southwest LA. Growing up in New Orleans I mostly traveled east...or out of the US!

By the way, if they try to tell me I can't bring the case on, another option is to tell them they can check the case as long as I can hold the oud or put it alone in the overhead.

Jody Stecher - 7-25-2015 at 10:40 AM

Quote: Originally posted by DavidJE  

By the way, if they try to tell me I can't bring the case on, another option is to tell them they can check the case as long as I can hold the oud or put it alone in the overhead.


now THAT is brilliant!

hans - 7-25-2015 at 01:55 PM

I am a flight attendant and can confirm that it is all individuals out there. I asked in Istanbul at check in and I got two ouds in the cabin with Turkish Airlines, but the ground staff had to ask his supervisor. With KLM, my own company, I was told that on a 737 there would be no way because there simply is not enough room; on the larger aircrafts there would not be that much trouble, I see guitars coming on board regularly. I would be very surprised if they rejected a business class passenger his oud; but I would be careful with acting as if you own the company, some staff are allergic to that. As a business class passenger you do want to act as if you can become really difficult if they bother you. Airlines depend on business class passengers

Jody Stecher - 7-25-2015 at 04:51 PM

Bravo! 100% accurate. By "act like you own the company" I meant "carry yourself with quiet confidence", not "be arrogant".
Quote: Originally posted by hans  
I am a flight attendant and can confirm that it is all individuals out there. I asked in Istanbul at check in and I got two ouds in the cabin with Turkish Airlines, but the ground staff had to ask his supervisor. With KLM, my own company, I was told that on a 737 there would be no way because there simply is not enough room; on the larger aircrafts there would not be that much trouble, I see guitars coming on board regularly. I would be very surprised if they rejected a business class passenger his oud; but I would be careful with acting as if you own the company, some staff are allergic to that. As a business class passenger you do want to act as if you can become really difficult if they bother you. Airlines depend on business class passengers

Brian Prunka - 7-25-2015 at 05:04 PM

While traveling with a great musician who travels all over the world continuously, I asked him if he had any problems bringing his oud on board. He said he's never been stopped from bringing it on, that the thing to do is be as friendly and polite as possible but adopt the mindset and attitude that bringing the instrument on board is a matter of course and completely normal and expected.
If challenged, smile and laugh as if they suggested it as a joke. Assure them that it won't be a problem and that you always carry it on.

Try to avoid escalating any tension; if you are expecting tension and an argument then you will make the people nervous and increase the likelihood of a problem.

As a last resort, you can say that the instrument is worth many thousands of dollars but even more importantly has great sentimental value. It's better to get people to feel like human beings than to create a confrontation.




Brian Prunka - 7-25-2015 at 05:08 PM

However, I agree with previous posters that a soft case makes people more sympathetic—the hard case gives an illusion of protection and makes it seem like "luggage".

US air carriers are now required to accept guitars and smaller instruments in the cabin if there is room and it will fit in the overhead. This tends to be implemented at the point of departure, so you are unlikely to run into issues in the US. If you can get here, you should be able to get back.

http://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/us-department-transport...

adamgood - 7-26-2015 at 01:51 AM

I heard recently that a famous udi refers to his instrument as an "antique lute" and has never had a problem. I guess the idea is they are more likely to understand these two words, give them something they can more relate to.

Jody Stecher - 7-26-2015 at 05:38 AM

Quote: Originally posted by adamgood  
I heard recently that a famous udi refers to his instrument as an "antique lute" and has never had a problem. I guess the idea is they are more likely to understand these two words, give them something they can more relate to.


Oh, absolutely. always say "lute" or valuable musical instrument" and never say "Arabic" when dealing with any European or American who can affect the safety of your oud. As I related some years ago in earlier posts I have been involved in incidents where "oud" was thought to mean a kind of cheese, (for which I lacked the proper import license) and to be a bomb, with O.U.D thought to be a variant of I.E.D (improvised explosive device). Always keep it simple and ordinary.

Brian Prunka - 7-26-2015 at 05:45 AM

Yeah, same here—I always say "lute".

journeyman - 7-26-2015 at 07:26 AM

I used to travel with my guitar in a flight case that weighed a ton and check it as baggage. Carrying that much weight around once arrived my hands would be in bad shape for the gig. Now I use a good quality gig bag and attempt to carry it on; sometimes I can and sometimes I can't. When they say NO, I ask for something called a "gate check." This allows you to carry the instrument to the boarding gate and then a cabin crew member places it with the luggage, but it does not go on a conveyor belt nor is it thrown by luggage workers. It is removed carefully as well and so far, things have worked out very well. You have an opportunity to explain to the flight attendant that it is fragile etc. With the oud in a good hard case I would feel OK about using gate check. Good luck.

monitort - 7-28-2015 at 01:12 AM

When I traveled with my guitar (in a hardcase), I asked the flight attendants if they could put it in the coat compartment. It worked every time. The case itself was larger than the overhead compartment so I guess this was the only option...

hans - 7-30-2015 at 01:17 PM

Quote: Originally posted by monitort  
When I traveled with my guitar (in a hardcase), I asked the flight attendants if they could put it in the coat compartment. It worked every time. The case itself was larger than the overhead compartment so I guess this was the only option...


actually the flight attendants are usually not the problem; the problem is getting the thing past ground staff.
And in this case I would stress the importance of being a business class passenger. Just to put things in perspective: klm economy passengers give the company a profit of only a few euros per seat. Which means they don't bring in a lot and there are too many all be treated as individuals.
It is the business class passengers that keep the company floating; they bring in lots of money and there are 35 per aircraft maximum

fernandraynaud - 7-30-2015 at 10:33 PM

"It is the business class passengers that keep the company floating; they bring in lots of money and there are 35 per aircraft maximum"

... just as long as they don't realize you are using up one of the 35 BizClass seats using your Frequent Flier Miles ;-)

All of the advice sounds good. The "it's routine, with quiet confidence, valuable LUTE, compassion and humanity" collection is IMHO effective.

I don't think you need this one, but I once had to fly from a lesser city to Frankfurt, on a smallish plane with a Sukar in a Sukar hardcase. It was looking grim, so I limped up to the ticket counter. After some discussion and a short wait I just put the lute, in its case, on my lap, and was ferried on the wheelchair through security, and into the plane through the opening they bring those food carts through! The lute was effectively invisible, like my hat; they stuffed both in the Captain's closet, as an afterthought. Frankfurt's a big hub, with a million security barriers. It's a LOT nicer riding through that on a wheelchair too. The funniest part was that I had two "attendants" in Frankfurt. One big beefy blond, and a thin darker-skinned man who pretended to know as little about my "lute" as the big blond. But once alone with me in the elevator he turned to me, and laughed, and we had a nice talk about ouds and maqamat.

DavidJE - 9-11-2015 at 10:29 AM

I figured I should finally update this...

I brought my oud to the Austrian Airlines check-in and decided to ask them if it would be ok to bring it on-board. It was the only opportunity I would have to give it back to my wife before being stuck in transit. The Austrian employee told me it would be no problem as long as it fit in the overhead. So I brought it on without anyone saying anything.

When I sat down in the lounge in Vienna with my oud, before boarding, I looked next to me and saw another oud. When I looked at the passenger it was Simon Shaheen!

Unfortunately right after I saw Simon I received a message from my brother that my mom was in the intensive care unit on a ventilator in New Orleans. She had choked on her food while eating just a couple of hours before, and had no oxygen for more than 10 minutes. I tried to change my connecting flight in New Jersey to get home faster, and I was able to switch to a very small plane with only 50 passengers and no business seating. I also had no problem with my oud on that flight. The flight attendant put it in the storage closet.

When I got to New Orleans I went straight to the hospital and joined my family there. Sadly, my mom's brain was severely damaged and after about 24 hours myself and my family gave the doctors permission to turn the ventilator off. My mom died about a day after I arrived...thus my reason for not posting about this sooner. My mom was only 63 years old and healthy, so it has been very hard for myself and my family.

I mention what happened here as a reminder that any of us or the people we love can die at any time, even due to a crazy accident. It is so important to enjoy yourself as much as you can, and to spend as much time with the people you love as possible.

hans - 9-13-2015 at 04:55 AM

I am very sorry for you. Especially at the age of 63 all this must feel very wrong

Mehran - 9-13-2015 at 01:46 PM

I am so sorry for your loss David. This is a terrible tragedy. My best and kindest thoughts for you and your family.

Mike - 9-13-2015 at 07:48 PM

So sorry for you loss David. Condolences to you and the whole family. Thoughts and prayers.

DavidJE - 9-13-2015 at 10:01 PM

Thanks guys. I'd like to add, my parents were eating at their favorite restaurant when it happened, and my mom was having a great time. She went out quickly and really didn't know what happened. So although it is very hard for us, she died having a good time.