Mike's Oud Forums

What is a cheap oud?question for luthiers and musicians

franck leriche - 1-2-2016 at 07:49 AM

It might be interesting to have some information about cheap ouds.
There a growing demand for oud, but many people can't or don't want to spend to much, so they buy cheap ouds.

So it would be great to know what can we expect for, let say 600$.

It's about between half or a third of the price of a great oud.

I have some ideas on how a maker can lower the price:

-lower wood grade
-left over or imperfections from mid grade
-duplicating the same oud (no custom orders)
-making a lot of instruments in order to buy more wood quantity and pay less
-bowl with less ribs
-minimum of decorations.
-delivery with cheap strings
-sprayed synthetic cheap varnish
-synthetic material for rosace and nut.
-cheap glue
-attracting price to get new customers for more expensive ouds

I can imagine also differences in the time devoted to make and assemble the parts and the sanding.

So what can one hope from a cheap wood?
If he is lucky, the sound will be good, the wood quite stable, and the oud will not fall apart....
If he's not the fingerboard will quickly have holes under the strings, the look of the spay varnish will be....let say... sprayed....
He may have some issues when the weather will be to dry or humid...
The sound might be be quickly boring.
He might have buzzes on the fingerboard, Uneven holes for the strings

I really would like hear musicians and luthier's opinions on this matter.

Jason - 1-2-2016 at 08:23 AM

Prices may be different where you are but wood is relatively cheap in America. Generally, the most expensive physical part would be the spruce top. The best way to lower the price is to use cheaper labor and increase volume. Sukar ouds were relatively cheap because they sold a lot of instruments and weren't relying on a single person to make everything.

franck leriche - 1-2-2016 at 09:54 AM

Ok, so how can a maker working by himself or with one or two employee can sell a student model oud for 600$ and a "pro" model for nearly 2000$?
Everybody knows the volume and cheap labor factor for "larger" companies.

I wasn't thinking of the USA or europe because life is quite expensive and there's no big oud production.

So if the spruce top is the most expensive part, why do some luthier ask a lot more for special woods for the bowl.

I like the things to be clear. Personally i would be ok to pay 10 000$ for a great oud i would love all my life.
But education is he best way to avoid thieves and bad behaviors.
So if this forum can help making a little more clear the way ouds are made, it would be a great improvement for the community.

Too many people on this planet make their money on the lack of knowledge of their clients.
I

Dr. Oud - 1-2-2016 at 01:16 PM

90% of the cost is in the labor. the cheap outs are made in cheap labor states like Pakistan using unseasoned wood and production methods. The result are wall ornaments, not worth the cost to make them capable of holding pitch and playable .
Fewer ribs made with common woods and reduce the cost, but not by much, certainly not $1,400. If I sell an oud for $2,000 I make about $18/hr, less than a grocery checker. In the Mid East this is a good income, in the US or Europe, not so much.
Exotic woods used for the bowel are just an ornamental sales issue, the bowel wood doesn't make any difference in the sound.

Jason - 1-2-2016 at 03:55 PM

They can sell the student model for $600 because their labor costs are exceptionally low and they aren't doing any time consuming ornamentation work. Actual materials really don't make THAT big of a difference in price unless you're using something exotic like CITES certified Brazilian rosewood. The price always come back to the cost of labor.

franck leriche - 1-3-2016 at 01:34 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Dr. Oud  
90% of the cost is in the labor. the cheap outs are made in cheap labor states like Pakistan using unseasoned wood and production methods. The result are wall ornaments, not worth the cost to make them capable of holding pitch and playable .
Fewer ribs made with common woods and reduce the cost, but not by much, certainly not $1,400. If I sell an oud for $2,000 I make about $18/hr, less than a grocery checker. In the Mid East this is a good income, in the US or Europe, not so much.
Exotic woods used for the bowel are just an ornamental sales issue, the bowel wood doesn't make any difference in the sound.


Ok, roughly that mean that a $600 oud has $50 of wood and a $2000 oud has $180, am i right?

So, let's do the math, there's roughly 1300$ of labor difference.

Where goes the difference if the same person builds those two oud?

Let's not talk about wall hangers.
I think this matter concern the musicians who are interested in playing the oud, not hanging it in the living room.

It happens quite often that some people are asking advices about "professional" ouds in the $600 range.
What can he expect from that compare to more expensive instrument?
And where the difference really comes from if they are made by the same person?

I don't want to give any name here, but that would be very easy.

To make it clear, i don't have any personal issues with anyone who wants to earn more money and sells ouds a high price.

I've been a craftsman and in my field i can give you all the tricks to lower the price to satisfy one part of the market....:cool:

I like to know what i pay for.
So let's try to make it clear for those who wants to know.

Alfaraby - 1-3-2016 at 06:45 AM

test :)

Alfaraby - 1-3-2016 at 06:46 AM

Hello friends
Happy New Year
Low cost ouds can be acquired only in developing countries, just like every other artifact. Ouds can be found in Egypt for example, starting from less than 20 $ ! Of course don't expect for a real musical instrument, but just to get the idea. If you decide to spend up to 100 $, you will probably find a reasonable, good looking descent oud. In Syria, it's quite the same: for a hundred you can (I mean could) buy a Sukkar, Zeryab, Damascene (both from Ali Khalifa's family) and more. This's possible just because labor wages don't reach 100$/month per capita;
while in Palestine, Jordan, Lebanon, Gulf, South Africa etc. the cost of living is rather expensive, so everything, not only ouds, cost much more .....

To be continued after hopefully solving the posting problem

Yours indeed
Alfaraby

Adel Salameh - 1-3-2016 at 07:18 AM

A very Happy new year to you ...interesting topic Franck , yes you can find a decent student OUD for 100 US dollar in Syria , quite clean but no sound ... I do not expect an instrument at this price to sound great ... You can spend also 1000 or 2000 euros on an OUD and not got what you want ... I do not see how a luthier in the Arab world can make a decent living making Ouds without charging the real value of the instrument unless we are talking about mass production which is common practice these days by many makers , not to forgot also that most of these makers are putting different parts of the OUD together . I. E they buy separate parts of the OUD and put it together .... Albeir Mansour in Lebanon is charging 3000 euros for his Oud, I believe his instrument is worth that much for the time he spend making the instrument and the sound that he gets out of it...I believe that getting a student OUD is possible at reasonable prices , the same for intermediary students ... The problem still and may last for sometime is getting a professional OUD for performers ... This is a problem that makers have to deal with as we have lost contact with the instrument. Wish you all the very best , health , happiness and peace , Adel

Jody Stecher - 1-3-2016 at 10:03 AM

The cost of making an oud is not just materials and many hours of labor. There is the cost of maintaining a shop, the cost of tools, of electricity, of heat, the cost of varnish and other finishes, the cost of glue, the cost of paying an assistant in some cases, etc. Wood must be bought in quantity to get a lower price. Although the the price per board is lower this way the overall price can be a substantial layout. This money has to come from somewhere. Another factor is the many hours and years of unpaid time that the luthier has spent learning his craft. There is the cost of the materials and time lost on mistakes. Some early ouds are failures. The family of the luthier must eat. And often the luthier is not paid until the oud is finished so there is no income during the time the instrument is being built.

If the luthier did not charge more than all these costs he would not be making a living, he would be breaking even.

Jody Stecher - 1-3-2016 at 10:05 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Adel Salameh  
. The problem still and may last for sometime is getting a professional OUD for performers ... This is a problem that makers have to deal with as we have lost contact with the instrument. Wish you all the very best , health , happiness and peace , Adel


Adel, what do you mean by "we have lost contact with the instrument"? I understood the rest of your post, but this is not clear to me. thanks!

Adel Salameh - 1-3-2016 at 11:27 AM

Jody ... Long time ago in the late1980's I was in Baghdad .. I visited an old master who was making wonderful OUD , I was talking to him about OUD making ... He has told me that it will take a maker 10 years to make an OUD .... Meaning he /she will spend 10 years of learning before he/she can make a decent OUD ... Most makers I have seen or have met do not want to take the time to learn ... They want to produce and earn their living which is fair enough ... Take Nazih Ghadban , I have known his work for a long time ... His work today is completely different from 15 years ago ... Gained more experience and he made copies of nahat as he saw many nahat Ouds , repaired them , even in some cases I am sure he had to take the top of the instrument and replace or repair it ... Making a copy of an OUD , it's not simply taking measurements, but also locating the bars, thickness / height/ width and the distance of the bars , using decent wood , using seasoned wood , decent glue ... In fact we must have schools on which new OUD makers can go and learn how to cut the wood , putting ribs together , to enable the maker have a decent clean finish with great sound ... A German maker has told me once that it will take him 15 years of practice to cut a shamsya like the one on my Abdo nahat OUD ...again I say it if you want Ouds for beginners in the Arab world or intermediar ... You have huge choice.. But if you are looking for professional OUD ... It's very hard ... Having said all of this let me remind you of one thing , we were not shortage of great masters in the past ... I think OUD makers now a days have a lot to learn from the old masters and not to dismiss the great old masters , best wishes, Adel

Jody Stecher - 1-3-2016 at 11:43 AM

Thank you, Adel. *Now* I understand.
-jody

Mike - 1-3-2016 at 08:44 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Alfaraby  
test :)



You should be able to post special characters again without a problem. In other words, you won't have blank posts anymore.
The problem was php related. I'll spare you the details of how it was resolved.

franck leriche - 1-4-2016 at 01:50 AM

Thanks to everyone who participate to this topic.

I apologize insisting again, but the idea i would like to make clear doesn't concern very cheap ouds, neither the fact that oud makers have to pay the bills, of fed the family which almost everybody has to do.

My question is: if someone wants to buy a oud from one maker who offer him a "student model" for $600 and a "pro model" for $2000, what will be the differences?

For sure, the maker will have to pay the bills and eat every month. He will have not access to very low cost labor because he is working by himself.

So if the difference is not in the wood, it's in the labor, but where?
How can the same maker can make a oud for $600 and $2000?or $1000 and $3000?
Let's talk about a oud looking the same.
Ebony fingerboard and pegs, spruce face, walnut body or any not expensive wood.
What are the tricks to save time?
And what the customer will get?



Adel Salameh - 1-4-2016 at 04:34 AM

Franck ... How? Let me start with expensive wood ,ebony fingerboard, ebony pegs,expensive wood the bowl let us say rosewood ... Etc ... All of these woods are no good for the OUD .. The best wood for the bowl is walnut ... Fine you like the exotic wood and it looks nice and beautiful ... Still it's very strange for the OUD and none will give you the warm sound of walnut .... I had 4 Ouds made for me with expensive rosewood ...the result was miserable .
Coming to your point about making student OUD at 600 dollars , either you have professional oud makers Albeir Mansour , Nazih Ghadban , Wolfgang fruh... They do professional Ouds they do everything in the instrument apart from the pegs ... It will take 3 months to make the OUD..And most of us do know their prices ... They will not do you a student model ...you have other makers like Sukar , he makes students model and intermediar and his prices is the one you are quoting ...the poor maker has to make a living , has to eat and to pay the bills ... An alternative to this ... You go yourself and buy ready parts of the OUD which is sold in Syria , Egypt And put all the parts together ... It will cost may be less than 600 dollar and will not take you long time to do so ...you will find it very hard to find a professional Arab OUD for less than 2000 euro .... And if you are decrementing OUD player like myself .. You will have to pay more to got what you want .
Good luck ,
Adel

franck leriche - 1-4-2016 at 06:31 AM

Great Adel, you made a big point here!!!
So let's forget exotics woods which is bad also for the planet because of the shipping oil need...

Too bad many makers claims that the bowl wood doesn't change the sound....
I trust you hundred times more because you will not get any money from this business...

Now we understand why some makers advertise their ouds mostly on bowl wood...maybe they don't have anything else to say.

Maybe i wasn't precise enough, but the idea of this thread came to me after this post:
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=16238

I was more thinking about turkish makers than arab ones that i know less.

Let's put a few names here:
Mustafa Copcuoglu offers student model for $1200 and pro for $1800( shortfingerboard)
Faruk Turunz offers reduced price point oud for $1300 and concert oud for no less than $2700
In Ramazan Calay shop i found different prices , some where really crappy and other better.

I am not concerned by this category of ouds but it would be nice if we could give a hand to those who are willing to buy them.

How can a maker able to make great ouds can make a cheaper oud?
Does he make it faster?
How can he save some time?
And what is the result for the buyer?


SamirCanada - 1-4-2016 at 08:55 AM

This is an interesting question Frank,
I will contribute to this from my standpoint. I am a hobby oud maker and therefore I have the luxury of not having to depend on it for my livelihood, but still when I do sell my works I want to charge a price I feel is representative of the efforts I put in the work.
The cost of wood is relative to how much you buy and where you are located in the world. To your point about exotic woods, I think the costs difference between expensive woods or other more affordable woods is an illusion. The rosewood billet I used to make an oud cost me $80 enough for 2 ouds. Walnut was actually similar in price. But rosewood is harder to work with and is considered to be more expensive. I am in agreement with Adel that for the Arabic oud, walnut is the ideal wood but unfortunately the demand for ouds is based on expensive oud looks not on things that matters like sound, string action, competence of the oud maker.
In my case, someone living in Canada, the woods and materials for a oud cost me roughly $200. Selling the oud for 600 would be about $400 for let’s say about 130-150 hours of labour. Some people might find that it’s enough for them but for me given the investment in tools and time I have put towards this craft it doesn’t work.
We say the main cost of making the oud is labour. However, it’s not just any labour it is a very skilled labour only devolved with experience, passion, skill and knowledge of woodworking tools etc… This has its own costs and it’s determined by the maker. For example, I know that in a year I can make 1 or maybe 2 oud at the most because of my family situation and my main work. I make them to the best of my abilities and so when it comes time to sell it, I want to make sure it’s going to someone who will appreciate it and I have the luxury of waiting to find someone who will purchase for the price I am asking. Some people may not have this luxury…
The question of going faster or cutting corners is tricky because with experience you can get better and faster but it has limits. I know that if I try to go faster on certain hand operations I will mess up so I take my time and go slow. The key to save time would be to make a few ouds at a time for example if you make 5 ouds at a time and you are ripping enough ribs for 5 ouds it’s going to be faster because you are already setup to do the operation. Also you can develop special jigs to make certain tasks much faster.
About varnishing and finish… also there it’s an illusion that spraying a finish is faster and cheaper. Finishing happens before any finish is applied; taking time to make sure the surfaces are nice and clean with scrapers or sand paper. It is much easier to achieve a nice finish when you are applying with a rubbed rag.
I also think the price of a oud should be determined after it’s done, for example I could build 6 ouds the exact same way and 1 will sound amazing, the others will sound ok or perhaps even some will have poor sound. Should they all be the same price?

Jody Stecher - 1-4-2016 at 09:16 AM

Frank, one big difference between the lower and higher priced Turkish ouds is the finish. A hand applied French polish takes a lot of time and labor and skill. A matte finish, sprayed on, and not rubbed to a polish, can be done quickly.

Adel, I have an oud made 4 years ago by Nazih Ghadban. The bowl is made of alternating ribs of rosewood and amarante. I think you would like the sound and how it plays. It's not metallic or harsh or "foreign" sounding.

Richard, I agree with everyone who says the soundboard is the biggest factor determining sound. I disagree that that the wood of the bowl has no effect. I have played and heard enough walnut bowl ouds to recognize a characteristic sound. It is a small percentage but a crucial one. Consider the difference in the taste of lentil soup with no salt and with a quarter of a teaspoon added to the pot. The amount of salt is far less than one tenth of one percent of the contents of the cooking pot but the taste of the lentils is entirely different.

franck leriche - 1-4-2016 at 10:01 AM

Thanks Samir and Jordy for your inputs.

So, now everybody knows that asking a lot more for exotic woods....is....let say...not very fair.

But we all know that there's a fashion regarding exotic wood so it's a nice way to get more money for the builder.

We also know that the biggest factor of the sound is in the soundboard.
But one big question remains:
How can the same luthier make a student sound from the soundboard on one hand and a concert sounding one on the other hand?

I have a small idea on this matter, a good luthier knows what the sound will be by tapping the wood.
So he keeps the worst ones for student models. Am i right?

Also he may spend less time checking the sound during the bracing process, even not checking at all for very low quality ones.

About woods there's also the drying process, some luthier have a nice stock of wood, space is money, so for cheaper ones they might use younger woods. Specially for the soundboard.
Hüseyin Aktel has show me his personal stock of old spruce.He was very proud of it.

I will not forget the salt in the lentils tonight!!!:cool:

Brian Prunka - 1-4-2016 at 10:32 AM

As Samir noted, this is skilled labor. But different parts of the oud require different amounts of skill.
A luthier who is offering a cheaper "student" oud is using assistants or even outsourcing the less critical labor to other, more factory-oriented shops. The bowl is a huge amount of work but contributes minimally to the sound, so that work is often delegated to less-skilled workers as that will be a way to save a lot of money while having the least impact on quality. The master luthier's main contribution is in creating the soundboard and bracing—this determines 90% of the sound. Secondarily, it is in making sure that everything functions properly—the tuning pegs, pegbox, bridge, nut, neck joint and action are all set up to play well. Modestly competent woodworkers can create beautiful bowls, but creating a great sound requires a master luthier (and a bit of luck).

This is one way that a luthier can offer a cheaper instrument while maintaining reasonably high quality. He doesn't waste his time on the parts that an assistant can do just as well. Building jigs and other labor saving tools is another, though since those also require investment of time and money it is generally not going to result in a cheaper instrument.

Many people have said that the old Syrian makers like the Nahats didn't generally do their own rosettes, but that that work was done by specialists, which makes a lot of sense. I understand the desire from a standpoint of craft, but it really doesn't make sense for a luthier to go to all the work to learn the rare skills of building an instrument that plays well and sounds good then waste his time on decoration when it's something that many people could do.

As far as cutting corners: using wood that isn't fully seasoned, using very cheap woods, using incompetent workers, using cheaper woods and materials, etc.. Some of these I don't really understand—is it that hard to get good quality glue? Using whatever garbage wood Sukar and others use for the tuning pegs makes no sense to me, at most you're saving about $12. Maybe a bit of labor as the soft woods are shaped quickly and easily even with subpar tools. As you suggested, there may be considerably less time spent on fine-tuning the sound. Turunz has said that his concert ouds each have individually tuned tops while his student ouds are built according to a formula with minimal adjustment.

SamirCanada - 1-4-2016 at 12:25 PM

Brian,
About good glue and decent premade pegs. I feel you!

I don't believe in the hocus pocus of wood tapping, that's just my opinion. Otherwise how do you explain that some ouds with "low quality" spruce tops turn out to sound much better than master grade tops. Maybe I wasn't blessed with the "gift" but honestly I think the only way to make a oud that sounds good is to make a lot of ouds and learn from your mistakes and successes. This is what you are paying for in a oud, the experience of someone who has made enough instruments to know what will work and what will not.
This idea of the "gift" has to be the thing that most irritates me, I have had interaction with some "luthiers" who tell me they were born with a gift to know how to make a oud sound good 100% of the time just by "feeling" and they never made a bad oud.

The recipe for sound in my opinion is:
10% construction skills and technique (know how to shape braces with a plane, how to use hide glue in a quick efficient manner, how to attach them to the soundboard and bowl, how to plane a soundboard to the right shape, how to ensure a light responsive construction that is strong and will not fail under pressure)

10% experience. meaning making ouds and studying your previous models which have great or poor sound and figuring out how to make adjustments also studying the works of the ouds made by the master luthiers of the past and present.

80% luck. We are trying to make something out of a somewhat unstable material that is 2mm thin with a lot of tension applied to it, it has to vibrate greatly at the right frequencies and yet it must not collapse. Too many things are happening to say we have a lot of control.

I agree with you Brian, there is more of a need for luthiers to learn to delegate and outsource some parts of the oud. For example I don't find anything wrong with using premade pegs or even using a jewelry maker to fashion the rosettes etc...
However, I don't agree that making the bowl is easier than making the top, more things can go wrong and if you have learned the skills to make a oud bowl you can definitely make a oud top. When you play a good oud, you feel it vibrate in your body. The joints have to be tight all along the ribs, the ribs have to be the right thickness and more importantly the wood used to make the bowl has a big impact I think more so than we have come to believe. I have not done this experiment but I would be interested to hear the difference if the same top was installed on say 2 or 3 bowls of identical dimensions but of different woods. I would bet the difference would be astonishing.

The most difficult thing and also most important aspect of making a oud is setting up for playability, specifically the string action, nut spacing, pegs functioning well, bridge height and spacing etc... It's also why I think that to make good ouds, you should play the oud pretty well. I don't think I could make a good guitar because I don't play the guitar, it may resemble a guitar but I wouldn't know how to adjust it ideally because I cant play it.


About finishing, is spraying really easier than a oil hand rubbed finish? the equipment is expensive to maintain and you must be in a dust free environment. I am not talking about French polishing shellac but there are finishes that are really easy to apply with a rag or a brush and that look much better than sprayed lacquer. The spraying I think is used to hide poor wood surface preparation which is really the part that takes more time and skill. I will say that spraying might be thought of as "faster" and easier but I don't think it really is because to do it right you still have to sand between light coats and you still have make sure finish doesn't get on sensitive parts of the oud. I will say its easy to do a spray finish wrong.

Brian Prunka - 1-4-2016 at 01:17 PM

I just want to clarify that what is "easier" if often a matter of what can be divided into multiple separate tasks more easily, or what can be solved by technology and adequate preparation. A factory set up correctly can spray finishes much much more efficiently than is possible with French polish. It's true that many drying varnishes can be applied easily. Many cheap Arabic ouds use cheap shellac that is not polished out. If you are producing a small amount of instruments, then it's true that lacquer is more work, but if you are producing a lot of instruments it can be done much more efficiently (and more importantly—by specialists, not by the luthier). Nitrocellulose lacquer is a beautiful finish with minimal or positive acoustical effects when done well, and actually reveals imperfections, it doesn't hide them. It's a lot of work for a single finish but can scale very well in production. Synthetic spray finishes (polyethylene, polyurethane, etc.) are easy and require much less work, hide imperfections (and kill the sound).

A bowl isn't "easier", exactly—it's a lot of work and does require skills. Strictly from the standpoint of woodworking skills, making a great bowl seems much more complex and difficult than other aspects. But they are more straightforward skills (that is, they stem from widely available knowledge that can be learned by a motivated person) than are required for a good-sounding top.

I agree with you that playing the oud and having the desired sound in your head are critical. This is why this is the part that can't be delegated. I disagree that if you have the skills to make a bowl then you have the skills to make a top. From a woodworking standpoint, sure, that's true. But I've seen over and over again luthiers who have all the skills to make fantastic bowls, but their ouds have no sound because they don't really know how to make a top.

The fact remains that the bowl is a small part of the sound and a huge part of the labor, so it is the most logical candidate for delegating. It still needs to be done by someone skilled, but I've seen a bunch of really nice bowls from factories in Egypt and Syria—I think it's indisputable that it can be done well. Again, a dedicated bowl-maker can work more efficiently than a luthier who builds one or two bowls at a time and then makes a top, and a neck, and a pegbox, and assembles everything as well.
The factories in Turkey are generally turning out very nice bowls at very little cost. I'm sure if you wanted to do your experiment, you could get a factory to provide you with half a dozen bowls to your specifications, then try the same top on a few different ouds (and different tops as well).

While I think that most modern oudmakers are in the 80% luck category as you say (and why I am unlikely to order an oud from a luthier), the fact that luthiers in period 1900-1940 seemed to be able to produce good instruments pretty consistently suggests that there are simply techniques and knowledge that have been lost. Even assuming the poor instruments were more often discarded, causing selection bias, luck doesn't seem to me to be a sufficient explanation. I think this is what Adel was referring to when he said we have 'lost touch with the instrument'. The tradition of making that led to the great makers like Nahat, Gamil Georges, Kandalaft, etc. seems like it got disrupted and we are trying to recover the lost wisdom that took generations to develop.

Regarding your comments about wood tapping and "the gift" —I don't disagree and I don't think I suggested anything about a "gift" or about wood tapping. The only "gift" I could think of would be the luck to be trained by a master who can actually pass on what he's learned. Most "luthier" woods seem to be graded by visual appearance and have little or nothing to do with their ultimate acoustical qualities.

I'm not exactly advocating the luthiers "should" do anything. I do think that if someone has the skills to make great sounding and playing ouds, then they could produce more and be more efficient with their skills (and be more likely to feed themselves) if they are strategic about what they really need to do personally vs. what can be done by someone else. I'm not really concerned with whether that results in a "bargain" for customers. But being realistic, the number of people who are able or willing to pay $3000+ for an oud is very small.

Brian Prunka - 1-4-2016 at 01:20 PM

That said, I respect the old-fashioned sense of craft that is involved in building an instrument start to finish. There is definitely a kind of integrity in that. But if dedication to that feeling leads to people unable to develop their potential as luthiers or to feed themselves and their family, maybe it should be reconsidered.

SamirCanada - 1-4-2016 at 08:00 PM

This is a great discussion Frank, Jody, Brian, Adel.
hopefully we can hear from some oud makers. I think we agree on many points.

About knowledge of woodworking and oud making 1900-1940, these were a sort of golden period for the craft. A lot of knowledge and experience as well as a high demand for quality ouds during those days. I will say though,I also love nice old ouds but they wont be around for ever. I wonder what the ouds of today's makers will sound in 80 years. How much of what we hear today is due to the best ouds having been cared for over the years and the effect of age in instruments. If we dont encourage those oud makers today who are doing their best to revive the craft, how will it carry on?

If a dedicated oud bowl maker can become very good at bowl making, what is a luthier? a dedicated top builder? I mean really, if someone was only responsible for making the tops and adjusting the playability obviously they would become better at it with time. Are they a master luthier because they are responsible for assembling and installing the top?

Anyways to bring it back to the topic, cost of making ouds and if it can be reduced a keep a decent level of quality. Yes I think so, either by repeating tasks and making many ouds at a time. ex: make 5 bowls then make 5 necks, make 5 pegbox, then fit all the pegs etc... working with a small team sure you can spread the tasks more evenly. Even then, will they all sound the same? no they wont, even if it was the dedicated top builder "master luthier" who was installing all of them. Ouds are all unique in the end, its why I think the price should be determined once the oud is complete based on the mostly sound.


bulerias1981 - 1-4-2016 at 09:47 PM

The Martin guitar factor says they lose all their time and money on the finishing process. There's just no nice way to do it. Most of my ouds I do french polish finish, which is certainly a delicacy. I make almost every part by hand. In some cases, depending on the order, I make every part by hand, rosettes and even the pegs. Another important thing no one mentioned is setup, which I consider to be even more important than the sound, because no matter how great the sound is looming inside the magic box, no one will want to play it. Setup is also very time consuming to get everything PERFECT. Such as string height, string spacing, nut height, correct neck angle, relief in fingerboard, PEGS, the holes being drilled in the best place, and so on. Not to mention the art of making in itself and what the maker wants to earn for his time. Luthiers depending on their situation constantly undercut each other. We've raised this question many times in the forum. What is an oud worth? What is a violin worth? And so on. Like a work of art, price is subjective. And yes, someone mention shop costs, which living in NY, I can tell you the costs are high so in order to survive the quality has to be high.

About the instruments being made from 1900-1940 as being "good", I think many were good, but not as good as they are today due to aging. Time does wonders on tonewood. I don't believe anything has been lost.

SamirCanada - 1-5-2016 at 06:42 AM

I am wonder why though oud "factories" don't use more simple finishing techniques that still yield nice results. Things like wipe on poly or a wipe on varnish oil like Tru-Oil have to be cheaper and less complicated that setting up a finicky spray operation. Even if you have 10 ouds to finish at a time, it's a better way to do it given while you apply finish on one the others are drying etc...

About what you said of the setting up to play, I agree 100% it is hardest part to achieve and the luthier is 100% in control we cant say there is much luck involved here. It's also hard for someone who doesn't play oud and isn't familiar with how it should play to perform.

I am sure sometimes you are working on a few ouds and you make them all more or less in the same way with the best of your abilities. They will all sound decent but once in a while you will make a oud that is just born with a monstrous sound it will command a higher price tag no? John I remember when I played a oud in your shop (Tarab 3 I think it way) and it was just amazing.

tkmasuda - 1-5-2016 at 06:43 AM

You guys are doing a good job identifying the critical elements of luthier-made ouds. Can you figure out which of those elements are most essential, devise some kind of production model, train and supervise cheap labor, and offer a reliable, acceptable $600 oud? Can you make an oud comparable in quality to a $500 Martin?

If the pegs are such a problem, maybe a cheap oud will have ... geared tuners.

bulerias1981 - 1-5-2016 at 07:07 AM

The finishing process in any guitar factory is enormous and incredibly high tech using robots and so on. There are no oud factories using robots that I know of. And the process of making a bowl likely cannot be done with robots. To answer tkmasuda's question, it would be impossible for anyone living in the U.S. or Europe to sell an oud comparable to Martin for $600. By hand it takes anywhere from 4-6 weeks to complete an oud, how can it sell for $600, especially the materials costing from $75-$200. You have to think about what you earn every month and look at your expenses. Realize a shop means double the bills for luthier. Furthermore, being inspired by the highest quality myself, I am not willing to cut the quality on my instruments, nor hire cheap labor. There is Kia and Audi, and I'm interested in making Audi only. (or Ferrari ideally!) I take more of the artist approach rather than that of the businessman. There are plenty of ouds in various quality levels, it's impossible to compete with cheap or mid-range instruments even if I wanted to.

About the sound being a factor of the price as Samir mentioned, I agree. I don't have a model that is a standard price. If an instrument is tonally outstanding, that instrument is worth more. My comparison of car manufactures is limited because the nature of a musical instrument is unique in that not all are the same tonally, unlike cars which coming out of a factory are the same. Of course playability is factored into the value as well. There are other makers who follow this principle.

The cheapest instrument that can be made in my shop is $3200. I offer a lifetime guarantee against workmanship and materials for life to the original owner on all my instruments. (neglect, abuse is not covered of course). You can be sure the setup is good, the sound is good (or great), a beautiful finish, and the oud will last many years and because of how its made will age very good. I am a firm believer in "you get what you pay far" and I've learned over and over this is true, especially when buying tools! I don't waste money or time any more and just get the good stuff!

Dr. Oud - 1-5-2016 at 09:16 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  
... the fact that luthiers in period 1900-1940 seemed to be able to produce good instruments pretty consistently suggests that there are simply techniques and knowledge that have been lost. ...

The reason the old ouds sound good is because, well they're old. The main reason that Abdo sounds better than Georgy is that his ouds are 40 -50 years older. Building on oud with aged wood seems to produce better sound, but never as good as an oud that has been played for many years. The years of playing the oud conditions the wood to develop the sound. Some of this can be accelerated by playing music (recorded or radio) at the oud while it is at rest. I have restored funky, crude ouds with no pedigree that sound as good as the old masters just because they were played for 50 years. They don't look as good, or command as high value though.

Brian Prunka - 1-5-2016 at 09:32 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Dr. Oud  
Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  
... the fact that luthiers in period 1900-1940 seemed to be able to produce good instruments pretty consistently suggests that there are simply techniques and knowledge that have been lost. ...

The reason the old ouds sound good is because, well they're old. The main reason that Abdo sounds better than Georgy is that his ouds are 40 -50 years older. Building on oud with aged wood seems to produce better sound, but never as good as an oud that has been played for many years. The years of playing the oud conditions the wood to develop the sound. Some of this can be accelerated by playing music (recorded or radio) at the oud while it is at rest. I have restored funky, crude ouds with no pedigree that sound as good as the old masters just because they were played for 50 years. They don't look as good, or command as high value though.


Sorry, but I don't agree. I think it's a copout. You can listen to recordings of the old ouds when they were new. Farid, Qassabji, Sounbati —those ouds sounded great to begin with.
I've played plenty of ouds that were 50 years old that don't have a good sound.

SamirCanada - 1-5-2016 at 11:29 AM

One thing for sure those oud players you mentioned had a fine taste in ouds :) I don't think any of them would play on anything but the best of ouds from the best makers of the day.

I will say, I have noticed my own ouds get better with age as they are played often. Also, I remember a video of Ghassan al-youssif playing one of Farid's oud. It's hard to tell if its just the strings or the technique or the Mic... but to me the sound may have decayed a little. perhaps it hasn't been played a lot or it's just strung to low with old strings... or perhaps even the player makes a difference. Simon Shaheen played one of my ouds in front of me... it had never sounded better :P

https://youtu.be/9SINA5Dd8Fc

https://youtu.be/8i1n60lE-bs

Adel Salameh - 1-5-2016 at 11:44 AM

dear friends,

again we must learn from the old masters and not dismiss them....we have good makers all over the world and everybody is saying that he is the best ...however I have not seen any maker getting closed to Abdo Nahat work...nor to Manoli...

makers have every right to ask what ever price they want to charge for their instruments..however, we need great sound, great finish, an instrument which function very well...If an oud has the best sound on earth and the mechanism does not work.... ..what shall I do with it? If an instrument has the best finish on the world and the best workmanship and no sound....again what shall I do with it?

pegs fitted properly, nut which is cut nicely, bridge with the same holes at the same level, distance between the strings, adjusting the neck, all of these are important elements for the player and this what makes an instrument worth buying...otherwise you might as well buy an mid range oud for 500 Euros and these ouds are found very easily in Syria, Egypt...short cuts are not acceptable ... we are talking about building an Oud...for this reason I am for schools were students can learn how to build Ouds...we have this in Europe , you can learn to build any instrument ...why not in the Arab world.

every single elements used on the oud will have an effect on the sound, the bowl does affect the sound, if its made from Rosewood its not the same as if it;s made from walnut, wooden nut sounds different from bone nut, ebony fingerboard sounds different from Rosewood or bone...

Samir you are doing a great job in building ouds, you have a great Lacy oud in your hand , one of the very few ouds survived by this master....you should make copies of his Ouds....
again this is a very interesting discussion and thank you all for your input... we are all learning.
Best wishes,
Adel

franck leriche - 1-5-2016 at 12:13 PM

So what comes out is, no matter if it's a student model or not, we never know what we will get if we make an order to a maker.
Same for the people willing to buy an oud on line that they never heard, a recording might be better, but it's easy to change the sound after the recording...

That's very bad for musicians, i've been spending a few days in Istanbul visiting many makers and most of the ouds i tried where crappy, the same happened to some friends too.
I'm very sorry about it, but i will not order a custom oud anymore.

There's something i don't understand, is there too much demand and work in this city for luthiers so they don't care about musicians or is it the opposite, too many makers and big pressure of cheap ouds made in factories?..it seems to be the same in arab countries from Adel's opinion.


Dr. Oud - 1-5-2016 at 12:47 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Adel Salameh  
... I am for schools were students can learn how to build Ouds...we have this in Europe , you can learn to build any instrument ...why not in the Arab world....

There is a tradition in the Arab and Persian cultures where makers will not teach anyone outside their family. The reason I've been told is that the master wants to be remembered as the best, not to be compared with a newer maker. Well he is, but the musicians are left without a successor so he is also remembered with some contempt. The oud can be disassembled to measure and duplicate (I did, still do), but years and generations of experience has to be developed without any guidance. I believe there are makers today that are the equal of these misguided ancestors, but only time will tell if their ouds mature to produce the sound of a 50 year old instrument. Turkey has an apprentice system, this is evident in the overall high quality of Turkish ouds. Some Persian makers are now teaching, so the quality of Persian ouds/barbats is also consistently high. The Arabs, well, not so much.
This is why I wrote the book, and the result has been gratifying. Jameel Abraham used my book to build his first oud, and with his high skill as a woodworker has made some masterpieces. Unfortunately he can't make a living with the depressed market, so he is out now.

http://www.lulu.com/shop/richard-hankey/the-oud-construction-and-re...

BTW, a video is in the works....

bulerias1981 - 1-5-2016 at 02:15 PM

Brian, I'm not saying the old ouds didn't sound good. The old makers were masters, no question. But not every oud they made sounded as good as they sound today. The reason why Farid, Qassabji, and Sounbati's ouds sound good in those recordings is because they are Farid, Qassabji, Sounbati and what maker would give them less than their best instrument !?

Brian Prunka - 1-5-2016 at 05:10 PM

Quote: Originally posted by bulerias1981  
Brian, I'm not saying the old ouds didn't sound good. The old makers were masters, no question. But not every oud they made sounded as good as they sound today. The reason why Farid, Qassabji, and Sounbati's ouds sound good in those recordings is because they are Farid, Qassabji, Sounbati and what maker would give them less than their best instrument !?


I'm just saying that age is not an explanation or excuse. Those ouds sounded great when new, and sound even better with age. Age alone will not turn a mediocre oud into a good one, let alone a great one. There is a certain quality of sound that is rare to find in modern ouds that has nothing to do with age—it was present in these old ouds when new.


bulerias1981 - 1-5-2016 at 10:02 PM

What ouds sounded good when new? 100% of the old ones? About age not yielding a mediocre instrument a good or great one, well that depends. In some cases yes, some ouds are just a lemon. And some actually transform. For example, I had a cheap Egyptian oud, which I hated, and never played. In fact I never even looked at it. I got it fairly new. It just sat, for about 4 or 5 years, then I decided to play it one day and noticed the damn thing was amazing. I recently sold that oud, but that is a case where a few years made a turd shine. It is known that the cell structure in wood changes, and these chances can be seen under a microscope. The wood becomes more stiff, and lighter. Even the riqq, which is something you bang with your hands. Our friend Johnny who is in the business of restoring old riqqs says that the old ones just have a sweeter sound. After much data analysis, testing and research tt is recognized that the old Italian violins are great mainly because of years. Will all instruments "transform" after some time? Not 100%, but I believe more like 90%, 10% being the lemon factor.

Adel Salameh - 1-5-2016 at 11:28 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Dr. Oud  
There is a tradition in the Arab and Persian cultures where makers will not teach anyone outside their family. The reason I've been told is that the master wants to be remembered as the best, not to be compared with a newer maker.

Not only Arab and Persian mentality but also European ... I have asked 3 makers in Europe who are making ouds to do workshops of oud building to new makers and students... the 3 of them refused to do so as they are worried the new makers (students) will be competing with them .
Quote: Originally posted by Dr. Oud  
Turkey has an apprentice system, this is evident in the overall high quality of Turkish ouds. Some Persian makers are now teaching, so the quality of Persian ouds/barbats is also consistently high. The Arabs, well, not so much.

what do you say about oud makers like Saad Alttayar, Fadi matta, Wissam Joubran, Butrus Bushara, Abd Al Jalil from Kuwait, young Aref Sayyed from Palestine... all of these makers are as clean as any Turkish Oud master....

best wishes,
Adel

Alfaraby - 1-6-2016 at 03:04 AM

Thanks Mike for solving the posting problem.
I have read all the posts and have to admit I learned a lot from your wisdom and experience, especially from makers.
Yet I still have some points to point out if I may:

Buying cheap row materials may be of great saving, once mass production is involved. Saving 10$ in pegs results in thousands in the annual turnover. Sukkar made his own pegs and saved a lot, in a factory capable of making 300 ouds a month !! Needless to say that this is not applicable in one-man-show luthiery. Therefore, no low cost ouds are really available, unless you make commercial production. Sukkar or Sandi for example could not have offered their ouds this cheap, unless they have industrialized their production. They'd buy woods and glues in wholesale for prices which are a dream for a single luthier. 5$ a top for instance, or let's say a couple of hundreds for 1 m3 of walnut.

On the other hand, the difference between HQ materials and LQ materials should not exceed a 100$, therefore the issue shall always be the workmanship cost. No single luthier in Europe, Norhern America, Lebanon, Jordan, Arabian Gulf, Israel/Palestine etc. is capable to make a living in such expensive countries selling his oud for hundreds (not even 9), while in Syria, Egypt etc. it's possible for the the low wages and low cost of living.

I know, from deep inside my friends' luthieries, that if they sell their ouds for less, they'd not be able to feed their kids. A Syrian expatriate maker living in Europe once told me: "If I sell my oud for less than 1600 €, I shall be betraying my family". As living in an even more expensive country, I understood him pretty well. My neighbor, Mowais Jr. for example wouldn't be able to make a living if he'd sell his ouds for less than 1500$.

As to Turkey, it's another opera. One may find a descent oud from a fair maker for 750$, (http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=16225) while "others" ask for as double as much. A quiz Franck meant in the first place. Well, I guess so !


Thank you all
Yours indeed
Alfaraby

Adel Salameh - 1-6-2016 at 03:33 AM

I expect to see a real different between an oud which cost 500 Euros to another at 1500 Euros....and if the mechanism does not work on the 1500 Euros then it's not worth more than the 500 Euros oud regardless where the maker is coming from.
Best wishes,
Adel

Jason - 1-6-2016 at 08:12 AM

Quote: Originally posted by bulerias1981  
After much data analysis, testing and research tt is recognized that the old Italian violins are great mainly because of years.


I'm not sure I would say that assertion is really recognized with a high degree of consensus. There have been so many blind test studies done where players and aficionados could not tell the difference between old and new violins. There were certainly bad violins made in the 18th and 19th centuries. Part of the reason so many of the old violins we come across are so great is because they were great to begin with... hence why they're still being played hundreds of years later.

If we accept the idea that dead seasoned wood continues to change over time then we should also put research into artificially inducing the processes if they are universally accepted as a means to improving the tone of an instrument. One would also surmise environment plays a role in whatever that process might be. A violin that has lived in Vietnam will certainly change differently than a violin that has lived in Arizona.