Who actually plays "Iraqi" tuning? (Fa Do Re Sol Do Fa)

Quote: Originally posted by SamirCanada

The Do instead of La is odd. But I guess it's the same as tuning base strings Do Mi instead of Do Fa. It works better sometimes for open string in certain maqams ex: Kurd

like the nahawand taksim for Abd el Wahab for which you shared the transcript
old school is usually associated with do tuning which is not true

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka

Quote: Originally posted by SamirCanada   The Do instead of La is odd. But I guess it's the same as tuning base strings Do Mi instead of Do Fa. It works better sometimes for open string in certain maqams ex: Kurd Having Do instead of La makes it more like the "regular" tuning, it's a transposed version of C G A d g c' (F C d g c' f'). It's not uncommon especially on old recordings, like suzidil said if it accommodates the singer's vocal range.

Yes actually, all tuning work the same the same, in F , in C , in D you will get always the same intervals for the 1 to 4th course:
A D G C in C tuning
Then for the 2 bass courses which are the variables ones, like in C tuning : C E / C F / C G / D G for the common ones but as low as A for the single bass as we comonly hear with turkish players .. B F# which is nothing more than the one tone higher of a player in C playing his bass A E
I dont know if i make things clear ^^ but it works the same for f tuning.

A matter of transposition I found interesting while going from Arabic to Turkish studies.

Something to point, people oftenly says they don't like turkish tuning because it is two high. But the tuning of B F# allow to play a transpose version, which i think they call mustahzen (i'm not sure)..Which actually is lower than the usual arabic version play in rast C (on C tuning).
Check muhayyer semay for Cemil Bey, an arabic player tune in C you will oftenly here it began on D note. A turkish player tune in D but playing mustahzen, you will hear it begin in B (2nd course). Check a record from Necati Celik for exemple

Ok and another one..then i stop, but this is a way of playing directly on turkish score without making a headache. Considering your oud, anyway the tuning, as C tuned, withe the bass in A E you can play directly from the turkish score and play " mustahzen " way.
Check muhayyer saz semai, on the turkish score it begins in A (the B you hear on turkish records but it is just they tune one tone higher).

Maybe this is the origin of tonality between turkish and arabic scores ? I don't know

ANd if I want to play directly from turkish score as usual arabic way, i consider in my head my oud as tune in rast sol. The muhayeer note, A on turkish score, get to the usual D you hear from arabic players when you are using an oud tune in C. I mean my oud is tune in C on tuner, but in my head I read as it was in G..Get back to the story of intervals , it is just an habit to take. I tune for exemple my oud D G A D G C but I play from the Turkish score as if it was A D E A D G. Weird at first but this is just in my head as if I had an oud tune in C but without the C treble string

The same way you would play an arabic score in C on an oud tune in F, usually you will play rast F even if it written C on the score

with time this help, because you can play this way with any score, witthout bothering on matters of transposition

Going back to the string..sorry for this long disgression, may need paracetamol but i think it is useful to work on

The most affordable and sure way i have found for strings is ordering C strings by lot of a brand i appreciate (i get a good price for it this way) and use for the F string nylon fish line, 0.5 to 0.6 mm, depending on the stringlength of your oud. I make this way because i mostly play in C.

best of luck

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka

Quote: Originally posted by SamirCanada   The Do instead of La is odd. But I guess it's the same as tuning base strings Do Mi instead of Do Fa. It works better sometimes for open string in certain maqams ex: Kurd Having Do instead of La makes it more like the "regular" tuning, it's a transposed version of C G A d g c' (F C d g c' f'). It's not uncommon especially on old recordings, like suzidil said if it accommodates the singer's vocal range.

Fa, Do, Re, Sol, Do, Fa is the standard Iraqi tuning for Floating Bridge, since 1957 - Mohammed Fadhil's patented first Floating Bridge Oud. The reason here is two fold, first being physical: floating bridge ouds work very well with mid- and high-tension strings; sound is bright, yet Cedar faces common in these ouds ensure a warm feel even in high nots. Second is to do with the range of Ajnas within the scales in Iraq; most of these have been amalgamated and/or summarised within the more mainstream maqams (e.g. Bayat in Iraq has 14 shapes - Mahmoudi, Bherzawi, Jbouri, Ibrahimi, Mkhalaf ...etc. + the standard Re Bayat, versus what is a single form of the Bayat elsewhere, often mistakenly termed Bayati, thus the finely stitched harmonic temprents within the same scale). This type of tuning is part and parcel, and therefore perfect for this intricate and very sophisticated music scheme.

Interestingly, pre-1957 floating bridge ouds made in Iraq by Mohammed Fadhil, Usta Fraj and others, employed Fa, La, Re, Sol, Do, Fa (the so-called Fa-Fa or F-F) . This then found its way elsewhere within and outside of the Arab peninsula, finding favour in Syria, then later on in Egypt, through exchanges such as the various Arab music conferences from 1964 onwards.

Music in Turkey and Iran took this modus operandi in two distinct directions, where the Turkish school opted for tweaked tuning, suitable for higher-pitched, smaller instruments, geared towards female performers in the Dawaween, whereas Iranian music took the religious chanting routes, akin with the Iraqi school, hence this tuning works beautifully there.

There's a good academic body on the origins of stringed musical instruments, the Oud in particular and the seven fundamental scales in both pre- and post- 2nd Sumerian Dynasty (c. 2334 BC & c. 1885 BC respectively), some of the most recent being Charest, 2019, van de Mieroop, 2016 and others.

Hope this helps

FCDGCF is really interesting because it helps hearing the intonation of the oldschool repertoire.

FADGCF seems to be very common today but the major third interval on the bass strings (FA) creates an impossible problem in the tuning process if you want to tune your oud be ear.

Turkish music employs a lot the natural third, so the tuning choice is very important, the presence of a tempered major third in the tuning could create unpleasant sympathetic resonance. In my case I recently moved from DF#BEAD to DABEAD for that reason, I also find that a second interval offers differrent opportunities but you have to get used to it.

Best.

Julien B.

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https://julienbigorgne.bandcamp.com/album/monades

Quote: Originally posted by juju

F FADGCF seems to be very common today but the major third interval on the bass strings (FA) creates an impossible problem in the tuning process if you want to tune your oud be ear.