Mike's Oud Forums

What strings did they use in the era of Farid al Atrash, Riad al-Sunbati etc.?

fameeyyoud - 1-24-2021 at 05:57 AM

Hey guys!
Im sorry for having asked this question, or at least a similar one, a couple of times before but i just cant stop thinking about it haha!
Basically im trying to achieve as close to Farid al Atrashs sound as i can. Now that i think i got the tuning right i was wondering what strings they used at that era so Farid got this „metallic“ dull low sustain „dry“ kind of sound they used to have in the 50s. Somebody here told me it was gut, but after checking some pictures it looks like all 6 courses looked the same
and also when i called Aquila and asked they said that in the 1938~ they majority switched to nylon strings, so that woule mean Farid used nylon too in the 50s? I doubt that...
What do you guys think? What strings were used at that time?
Thanks a lot in advance!

Brian Prunka - 1-24-2021 at 09:05 AM

Nylon was invented in 1935, and as far as I can determine, only became available for instrument strings in mass production in 1947 in New York City. Dupont had the patent for a long time so no one else could produce it.
The middle east would have had much less access to it than the US or even Europe, so it seems extremely unlikely that Farid would have had nylon strings. Though if anyone could get them, it would be a superstar like him. He also traveled to NYC on more than one occasions so he could have gotten some then. If he did, they probably would have just been guitar gauges.

Still, I'd expect that he'd have stuck with gut for most of his classic recordings. You wouldn't be able to tell from a video whether he was using gut or not, I'm not sure what you expected to look different. To the best of my knowledge, oud players through the 50s were still using gut for the most part.

ameer - 1-24-2021 at 09:19 AM

Farid's sound changed quite a bit over the years. Many of his sounds could broadly be classified as gut or gut-like. He was recorded using nylon strings a few times in the late '50s, in interview/ demo recordings and in at least one public concert. In concerts in the '60s he used something different that sounded gut-like but was brighter. Whether that was because of the strings or the recording equipment I don't know. By 1972 he was using nylon in public concerts. Even among his gut-like sounds there is enough variation that I wouldn't be surprised to hear he was using different brands. For Sunbati I have no idea. He doesn't have what I would call the typical gut sound in his early recordings, but I don't know what other options he would have had. Maybe gut strings respond more to the nature of the instrument than nylon strings?

Brian Prunka - 1-24-2021 at 10:19 AM

That's very interesting, Ameer!

Germans were also producing Perlon, which is a plastic similar to DuPont nylon (it's classified as a type of nylon). It's possible that this was being used for oud strings. It was (and is) used as a core for violin strings instead of gut. It has slightly different properties than DuPont nylon.

ameer - 1-24-2021 at 12:52 PM

Are you aware of it being available for oud or the like? I'm curious if it has any effect.

Brian Prunka - 1-24-2021 at 03:19 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ameer  
Are you aware of it being available for oud or the like? I'm curious if it has any effect.


I'm not sure, and even if it is it might not specifically be labeled as such.

You could try to just buy it from a plastics company, see what filament sizes are available. Generically nowadays it is labeled as nylon 6 (as opposed to standard DuPont Nylon which is nylon 6/6) since it's no longer under patent (Perlon is a trade name).

I used to see it sometimes listed as fret material for lutes etc. that had tied-on frets. Here is a material comparison for the variation in specs:
https://www.essentracomponents.com/en-gb/news/guides/the-differences...

Biggest differences: less dense, less durable, lower tensile strength, higher moisture absorption. These are all reasons why it is generally less desirable for something like a fishing line, but maybe it has a positive impact on the sound that would be a worthwhile tradeoff.

It looks like it is produced, but finding a consumer-level purchase option may be a challenge. Here is a company that makes it in .025in, .030in and .040 in diameters, which should be good for c' g and d.
http://www.engmono.com/nylon-6-66-data-table/

SamirCanada - 1-24-2021 at 03:57 PM

Probably was gut strings. But the oud itself has to do with the sound. Listen to old ouds from the masters even with standard wound nylon strings they don't sound as metallic. Strings are a factor so is the oud and the hand /risha
https://youtu.be/-uswCsB7QDc
https://youtu.be/XzD6kEUVlGk

There is a new brand available called hannabach see more info here :

https://www.instagram.com/p/CKS9n2ynj8p/?igshid=mhsj7mmdp6v5

https://www.instagram.com/p/CJYGrLDH_Sk/?igshid=ehrov07lxz79

Brian Prunka - 1-24-2021 at 06:01 PM

https://schneidermusik.de/shop1/product_info.php/products_id/124384/...

131,89 €

https://www.amazon.com/Hannabach-2500-Oud-11-string-Scale/dp/B013PSC...

$186.44

These have been around a long time, they make them for Rabih Abou-Khalil. I asked Hannabach about them years ago for OudStrings.com but figured that no one was going to pay over $150 per set for strings.

ameer - 1-24-2021 at 06:27 PM

Here is Farid using what sound very much like nylon strings, apparently in 1958. https://youtu.be/_CUQIVk1uxY

SamirCanada - 1-25-2021 at 04:42 AM

Yeah Brian.
I have a hard time buying pyramid lutes although they are phenomenal. I also find I end up keeping the same strings on for way to long when they are so expensive to replace.

saad - 1-26-2021 at 08:23 AM

Hi,
Prices aside, how are these Hannabach strings expected to perform on 58.5 and 60 cm scales, especially if tuned 1/2 step or one step lower? They are claimed to be for 63.5 cm scale with medium tension.

http://www.hannabach.com/en/strings/2500-aoud

jdowning - 1-26-2021 at 06:25 PM

In 1965 I had the good fortune to be posted to Cairo to assist in the commissioning of two steam turbine generators at the Cairo South power station at Helwan. During my brief stay I took the opportunity to purchase an old oud from a prominent music store in the centre of Cairo. I also purchased a spare set of strings for the oud. To my surprise the strings were gut trebles with wound basses (on silk filament?) - surprised because as a classical guitar player gut strings that were commonly used prior to WW2 had been replaced by nylon trebles and wound basses on nylon filament during the 1950's.
Unfortunately I no longer have those strings for comparison but as I recall they were of French manufacture.

So if these strings were representative of the oud strings that were available at that time in Cairo then it is likely that gut strings were the type used by Farid al Atrash and other masters?

By the time my interests had moved from guitar to lute in the early 1970's, replica lutes were then being strung in nylon - Pyramid being a popular brand. Of course now things have gone full cycle with the availability of good quality (and good sounding) gut strings for lute (at a price!). I wonder when did oudists generally make the switch to nylon stringing? For classical guitarists in the West (like Segovia and Bream) it was during the 1950's? Or did many oud players - even today - prefer the tonalities of gut over nylon so did not make the change?

As a lute player I only use gut for frets (superior to nylon that causes excessive string wear) and prefer Pyramid brand nylon (when I am not using experimental strings that I have made from silk or synthetic filaments)

Brian Prunka - 1-27-2021 at 08:42 AM

Quote: Originally posted by saad  
Hi,
Prices aside, how are these Hannabach strings expected to perform on 58.5 and 60 cm scales, especially if tuned 1/2 step or one step lower? They are claimed to be for 63.5 cm scale with medium tension.

http://www.hannabach.com/en/strings/2500-aoud


I wouldn't expect them to perform well on a shorter instrument, especially if they were tuned down.

saad - 1-28-2021 at 07:46 PM

Brian, thank you for your reply and input.

ameer - 4-26-2021 at 02:21 PM

For anyone interested in the earlier oud sound, I recommend getting a copy of this set: https://www.amar-foundation.org/cd-oud/
Lots of pretty clear oud recordings from the 30s and earlier. There is a previously uncirculated Farid El Atrash recording in there among other things.

Brian Prunka - 4-26-2021 at 05:12 PM

Hey Ameer! Thanks for sharing your thoughts about this collection. I sent them an email awhile back about ordering it but didn't hear back. Do you have a way to share the track listing? That was one thing I was curious about. I believe they have all the Dawud Hosni taqasim and was wondering how many of them are included on this, and what else is included.

Jody Stecher - 4-26-2021 at 05:29 PM

Wow! The Tanburi Muyyiddin Ba'yun collection looks good too.
Maybe I'll send them an email and see what happens.

ameer - 4-26-2021 at 08:11 PM

Unfortunately the track listing is on a printed booklet. Some of the tracks feature an announcer but not all. I'll see if I can't get a scan of the track listing sometime soon. There are a number of interesting things like early Farid, early Omar Nakshbandi, at least one recording of Shehata Saada, and a bunch of random other players I've never heard of.

Jody Stecher - 4-27-2021 at 04:08 AM

I got a quick response to my email message to Amar Foundation. Unfortunately shipping of two CD sets to the USA was quoted as a whopping $80. My reticence to pay so much is outweighing my musical curiosity.

Brian Prunka - 4-27-2021 at 09:22 AM

Quote: Originally posted by ameer  
Unfortunately the track listing is on a printed booklet. Some of the tracks feature an announcer but not all. I'll see if I can't get a scan of the track listing sometime soon. There are a number of interesting things like early Farid, early Omar Nakshbandi, at least one recording of Shehata Saada, and a bunch of random other players I've never heard of.


That would be nice, but don't worry about it if it's a hassle.
Given Jody's comment above I'm not sure I'm going to spend that kind of money on shipping.

Jody Stecher - 4-27-2021 at 07:09 PM

I wrote back and asked if there was a less expensive shipping option. No reply yet but it's been just a half day since I asked.
Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  
Quote: Originally posted by ameer  
Unfortunately the track listing is on a printed booklet. Some of the tracks feature an announcer but not all. I'll see if I can't get a scan of the track listing sometime soon. There are a number of interesting things like early Farid, early Omar Nakshbandi, at least one recording of Shehata Saada, and a bunch of random other players I've never heard of.


That would be nice, but don't worry about it if it's a hassle.
Given Jody's comment above I'm not sure I'm going to spend that kind of money on shipping.

ameer - 12-24-2021 at 07:57 AM

For those interested in hearing the sound you can expect from Aquila Lute strings, check out this video. I had them on an old oud for a time in 2019. It gets you a pretty good approximation of some early sounds. https://www.facebook.com/ameer.armaly/posts/10157907451421741

grassyknoll - 1-7-2022 at 11:28 PM

Hi Ameer:)

Which Aquila lute strings are those exactly (they make lots of options at this point)

Are those the loaded nylgut (red in colour) I'm seeing on the basses, and nylgut for the trebles?

Warmly,
Noël

ameer - 1-13-2022 at 07:41 AM

They are the regular nylgut trebbles for courses 1 and 2 (the nng series) and the wound nylgut trebbles for 3-6 (the d series).

Suli - 1-15-2022 at 09:37 PM

oids4sale.com has special strings collection with approximation to 1970s sounds.

You can find it here: https://ouds4sale.com/YYnaKm
And you can listen to its sound here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=o1-NUWrvhec and https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vU3XGD5gXOo&t=1s

I personally bought these strings, and I like their sound. It's deep and warm.

I hope it is similar to what you are looking for :D

ameer - 12-30-2022 at 06:59 PM

Here is a recently-released Abdel Wahab oud recording from this era. It makes me feel better to know they had to contend with buzzing in the golden age just like we do now.
https://youtu.be/fUHKm1WQTAE

It's interesting to compare it to his oud sound on other recordings like this one, where he plays the same maqam in the same position but tuned higher.
https://youtu.be/b4Re_kYqZfQ
All of this to say there is variation in the sounds of ouds in that era.