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Question about Um Kulthoum

SamirCanada - 5-9-2005 at 02:08 PM

first off,
I hope everyone is well

I have a question regarding when I play along with Um kulthoum songs it seems like I never nail the notes on the spot. I find it hard to ajust and to find out witch maqam it is in and were on the fingerboard are the notes coresponding. :shrug:

Also I find that most of her songs are transposed of maqam when they are studio recorded and in a 7afleh (with audience) that confuses me.
I had a bit of a bad experience with that. I brought my oud to my girlfriend's relatives and there was a cd of Hazhihi laylati studio version. I tought I could play along because I often play along the 7afleh version. But I quickly found out that it was in a different maqam and I couldnt play along.
This brings me to a different question. I think the studio song is in maqam hijaz kar
I have a really hard time playing this maqam is it because I tune D2 G2 A2 d3 g3 c4
ANybody can help? I find it soo hard to go from D# to E it not natural. thanks Samir

samzayed - 5-9-2005 at 02:14 PM

I was often told that sometimes her ensemble would tune higher or lower depending on how her voice and strength was the night of a performance. This may help clarify why certain recordings seem transposed.

TruePharaoh21 - 5-9-2005 at 02:47 PM

They indeed are transposed. And quite often, they aren't on any real "note," which is to say... for example, not on D or E half flat, but 82% of the way between the two.

I have a program that can change the pitch, so this is what I usually do. If you have questions about certain mp3 recordings that you have, whether it be of Om Kolthoum or otherwise, please let me know... I will try to correct the pitch to the best of my abilities so that you can hit the notes "on the spot," as you say.

TP21

eliot - 5-9-2005 at 04:44 PM

To make matters even better, sometimes the recording you get was played back at the wrong speed when they transferred it to tape or CD (since most of her work was recorded to these 16" transcription records that weren't at a standard recording speed).

TruePharaoh21 - 5-9-2005 at 04:55 PM

Eliot, if I'm not mistaken, there's a recording of Raq el Habib that I have that must be at the wrong speed. In one recording, she sounds quite young, while the other seems to be many years later, though I do believe that they must be the same recording (only difference is speed).

It's funny how they accidentally made the speed faster than it was originally, and now, they do it on purpose!

TP21

Alan - 5-9-2005 at 05:25 PM

How about using a capo if the song is transposed up

Alarabi - 5-9-2005 at 05:48 PM

I think because of recording speed.
Normaly I try to find the lower note of the string violin wich is the G then I tune my oud or my violin.
Some maqams are very rare, or invented by the compuser himself, It's frustrating to deal with that, for example the Sikah baladi is wrong in Arouh Lemin, a sikah baladi transposed on C must contains D quarter flat,E quarter flat,F,G,A quarter flat, B quarter flat and C
However the real song contains sharp E and F !!!
I don't trust the music sheet, I saw in music sheet that the E is quarter flat and the F is quarter high !!!
Almost all the great arabs singers transcriptions are false !! check your self!!
regards

TruePharaoh21 - 5-9-2005 at 06:02 PM

I'd like to give you a friendly bit of information, Alarabi. And please, if the following is already well known to you, I apologize for restating. Now, I'm just starting to look into all of this into a great depth of detail, but they aren't "inventing" maqamat. Upon looking through Scott Marcus' dissertation, I've come to the conclusion that the great composers of the last century were actually greater than we may have anticipated, and they knew some of these rarely used tetrachords. It's very cool.

As for transpositions, I can usually get to about 2 or 3 cents away from 440 Hz, and can therefore learn the song on the generic "right" maqam. Again, let me know which song you all would like to learn. For example, Al Atlal... I can get that to you all by the end of the week on the note that it was originally composed on. The base maqam for it, by the way, is Huzzam. Let me know if this is what you'd like. I'll try to be of as much service to you great people as I can be.

TP21

Alarabi - 5-9-2005 at 07:14 PM

Thank you truePharaon for your nice replay
I'm stadying the Sikah baladi, and I found at least 5 version or more of this makam !
Mohamed Abdelwahab used a differente sikah baladi, this is the well knowen, if you check maqam world, you l see that they put the Abdelwahab sikah baladi
The G sikah baladi is like a G hijaj kar, but the 1.5 ton intreval is cut to 1 tone, in both hijaz tetrachord.
If you lesten to arooh lemen, try to find what's the note in this sikah baladi and you'll find that's very differente from abdelwahab sikah baladi
Regards

SamirCanada - 5-9-2005 at 07:54 PM

Thanks TP
your so lucky to work with kan zaman btw. I would love to have an esemble like this in ottawa but even with the highest concentration of lebanese in north america it seems no musicians came here :shrug:

anyways thanks for ur help. when you say tune ur oud to 2 or 3 clicks away from 440 do you leave ur tuner at 440 and let the arrow rest 2 3 bars below 440 or just set the tuner to 437-438? Will doing that make the right notes move to the usualy coresponding "spot" it belongs to on the fingerboard? Also do you have a trick to find out what maqam a certainpeice is in?
Many Thanks TP
Samir

Alarabi - 5-9-2005 at 08:50 PM

Hi true pharon are you afif tayane?
Hi samircanada before you touch the arrow to change the 440 hz you have to konw on wich maqam and wich transposition the music is done.
If don't have music sheet, you can ask poeple that they have worked this music before or you try to lesten and find the lowest note of the violins.
when you are sure that you caught one note, for example G then you use your tuner, start the F sound on your tuner, and click on the arrow, until your F became the same as the G on your music.(I'm speaking about douka rast).
But if you prefer, you don't have to use the tuner, because you lesten a note and you try to tune your string to mach this note. the tuner will help you only to clean the other strings. but the most importante and dangerous action is made by your ear !!!
regards

SamirCanada - 5-9-2005 at 09:27 PM

dont worry my tuner tells me exactly witch note it is so I dont rely entirely on my ear. I dont tune it to a sound it produces I tells me how close I am with a arrow much like you see on amps ecept it tells you how close you are to the note.

Alarabi - 5-9-2005 at 09:43 PM

My Korg CA 30 tuner works in 2 ways, it produce sounds or it displays a needle.
But don't forget, we are trying first to adapt the frenquency 440 of the tuner itslef !!! your tuner is no good until you change the 440 hz in order to mach to song. You will use only your ear in the first step
regards

TruePharaoh21 - 5-9-2005 at 10:16 PM

Alarabi, no I'm not Afif Taian, though I know him very well and consider him to be a good friend of mine.

I have a few programs that I open up in order to tune it to the right key. First, I have to just figure out the maqam by ear, and then I decide which key is closest, or sounds easiest, or best. When I say "easiest" I do not only mean for the oud, but for the violins and other instruments as well. It is much better for me to learn the song on the key that would be most probably used in an ensemble setting than learning it on a more obscure key.

I put all the songs into 440 Hz (give or take a cent or two), and so it will match with your tuners, guys.

Again, ask and you shall receive. I will try to help in any way that I can for all of you.

TP21

SamirCanada - 5-9-2005 at 11:10 PM

TP I sent you a u2u
Take care bud

eliot - 5-10-2005 at 01:36 AM

When I learn new Umm Kulthum pieces (I play about 25 of them at this point, but you can never know enough!) I make transcriptions before I ever touch the instrument. I don't transcribe from the oud, but from singing/ repeating and finding where in the makam they were, and making extensive use of the half-speed option on a Marantz transcription cassette recorder. The software called "Transcribe" is also really good for the job. I just don't know a simpler way, and don't trust ANY commercially available transcriptions.

But it's important to realize that there are recordings out there where they really did perform in standard Arab tuning and play on odd keys such as Beyati on F; Rast on E, etc. In this case, if you transpose it up to G or down to D, you will never play in a similar fingering to the recording you're learning from. It's important, I think, to imitate the fingering as closely as possible, so that your open strings match the oud player's open strings.

An interesting anecdote about incorrect speed and pitch:
When Scott Marcus was going through living hell trying to get the rights to use an EXCERPT of the muqaddimah of ONE Umm Kulthum song, a permission that cost THOUSANDS of dollars, he was quoted this obscene price for something like the first 6:11 of music. When he was doing the mastering of his CD containing the excerpt, he discovered that the pitch was too low; he sped up the recording to the proper place, and ended up getting almost 1:00 more of the song to use on his compilation CD (for "free")!

In her early repertoire, there are some interesting pieces (Gamalat Bin Ayazayn, pardon my atrocious spilling, too tired to look it up) with tetrachords not mentioned in any textbook - This piece is in Sawk Afza, an esoteric makam used more in Turkish mevlevi music than in Arab classical music, and modulates to some hithero unknown makam featuring F, G half flat, A half flat, and B flat. It's not quite a garib-hijaz tetrachord (there's a section later in the piece featuring garib-hijaz), it's not a beyati tetrachord, it's not a mustafar tetrachord...

Jameel - 5-10-2005 at 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TruePharaoh21
They indeed are transposed. And quite often, they aren't on any real "note," which is to say... for example, not on D or E half flat, but 82% of the way between the two.

I have a program that can change the pitch, so this is what I usually do. If you have questions about certain mp3 recordings that you have, whether it be of Om Kolthoum or otherwise, please let me know... I will try to correct the pitch to the best of my abilities so that you can hit the notes "on the spot," as you say.

TP21

TP,

What program are you using?

TruePharaoh21 - 5-10-2005 at 06:37 AM

My programs are quite simple, really, and all of you have heard of them before on these forums. One is the AP Tuner, and the other is the Amazing Slow Downer. In conjunction, they work great, as long as I know what the maqam is (which takes a few moments to figure out), and the key that I want to play it from.

When I started learning how to play Ya Msaharni, I realized that they're playing it from A (Rast-A, by the way), and though this maqam is quite easily played from this note, I thought it would be more beneficial to learn it from C instead. Turns out that when I went to play it in rehearsal once, we all did it from C. So really, it's a matter of musician's discretion (though I don't know if I'm quite worthy yet to be termed a musician).

Eliot, forgive my ignorance, but isn't Shawq Afza the maqam used in Lissa Faker as Om Kolthoum says "Kan Zaman" at the end? Though it is rarely used, I agree, it is quite the modulation to do and has a profound effect on the audience. Sunbati was a genius.

TP21

TruePharaoh21 - 5-10-2005 at 07:52 AM

Morcos,

I can post el-Atlal for you as a real player file probably by tomorrow morning, I suppose (May 11, 2005). That won't be too hard. As for the playing segments... are there certain parts of the song that you'd like to focus on in particular? Once I post the file tomorrow, you can tell me between which parts (minute-wise) you'd like to learn. I can only do my best, but I'm sure that others in this forum can help much more than I can. But again, I will try to help as much as possible.

TP21

P.S. I am indeed extremely lucky to be able to play with Kan Zaman. It's truly a gift and an honor.

Alarabi - 5-10-2005 at 10:07 AM

Hi TP21, it nice that you have played with kan zaman

For the omkultum songs I think it's better that we look on the song and try to find the real frequency, for example If al atlal is 425 hrz, then people will take from this forum only the frequency, and they can change their tuner setting.
In this way, we creat a frequency songs database
For example Fakarouni 445 darati al aam 415 and son on
when someone want to play a song, he will only change his tuner setting accroding to the database.
This is just a an idea, you idea is good
I hope you understand by bad english
Best regards

TruePharaoh21 - 5-10-2005 at 11:11 AM

Alarabi,

While I can absolutely give you guys that information, I do have somewhat of a gripe with it... To my knowledge, the oud strings would bust a lot quicker if we were to fiddle around a lot with the tuning. Also, let's take into consideration that if you want to play two songs in a row, you'd have to end up retuning your entire oud. Yikes!

At the time, they really were just tuning to her voice so that she'd be most comfortable during the concert. I think the best way to get some of her songs without fiddling around with either your tuning or the pitch would probably be to obtain the studio recordings for the songs that you want. To my knowledge, those are on 440 Hz, though I believe I've only come across about two of them. If I were in Egypt, it'd be much easier, but I am here, and my only resource is the Internet.

I actually have started a little txt file on my computer that I write all the adjustment for the pitches in, so that when I want to play that particular song, I don't have to sit there and try to figure out what the tuning I used before was. I wish I was home right now so that I would be able to let you know what the pitch difference in el-Atlal is, and to post the audio file, but I'm still at school right now, and don't have access to my programs here.

Thank you for your continuing patience. I'm sure this post will end up being very productive for all of us.

TP21

habeebkum - 5-10-2005 at 03:16 PM

i think this is turning into a great thread and i've just had a FANTASTIC idea!!! how bout we have a section on learning the great old songs? for example if someone can play his/her attempt at a song then they can get feedback from all the rest of us and try to make even better, it will kind of be like maqam of the month. we could have song of the month....... :airguitar:

i love this idea!!!!!
TP21, cant wait for you to help everyone out. will check this thread tomorrow sometime. take care all

SamirCanada - 5-10-2005 at 09:11 PM

Iam happy with the dirrection this thread is taking. We can start with Al-Atlal (and maybe move to siret el 7ob for me please

)
I absolutely agree with you TP about the constant retuning its just not how things should be done.

Also to bring back another question I first had when I started this thread. I tune from Bass strings down. DGAdgc
I thinks its a somewhat common tuning... only I find one particular maqam ( I found a better example of it with Baa Ayez tensani) from Farido Iam unsure of the maqam name but I think its hijaz kar.
It is verry difficult to play because there are not many open strings and the notes are placed in a unconventional fashion. also when I play I end up playing 4 notes with the A string and barely touching the one above witch is tuned to G . There are many songs that I love that are written that maqam (someone let me know if its not hijaz kar please

)
would there be another tuning that I could use that would make it easier to play?? Iam thinking CEAdgc only I would like to make shure.
I am posting a pic that shows where my fingers go ( the green dots = notes in order with numbers that maqam hijaz kar is has described on maqam world) Iam puting red dots where the notes I play beyond and above the prescribed notes. The Red A means that I play the string opened (lower notes then the maqam prescribes) the song go to that note only.. I dont know if its suposed to be played in the maqam or its the composer's creativity taking over. Just trying to understand.

One thing is the maqam only using those notes? and when it goes higher or more towards the Lower(base) notes then it changes maqam or is the same maqam only starting from a different starting note?

Sika Baladi

JT - 5-10-2005 at 09:33 PM

Hey TP, how are ya mate. You know Ive always referred to Sikah Baladi as Sikd Al Nawa(Sika al Nawa), and infact with all the musicians I have worked with in Egypt call it the same. This is a very old and tradition mode and you can hear many pieces which modulate to this as the Bb1/4 tone is a great pivot, especailly in the raqsat, many violinists use it. Just listen to early Sami Shawa taqasims. There are a few other variations however. I personally use 3 variations when I play it. G, Ab1/4, Bb1/4(or B natural), C#1/4(or C natural), d, Eb1/4(or Eb), F#, G.

I have just made a quick taqasim to demonstrate. Dont judge my playing. Its not the best!

Cheers.

JT

Sikd Al nawa Taqasim

JT - 5-10-2005 at 09:42 PM

Cant attach

JT - 5-10-2005 at 09:43 PM

I'll send it to TP, and get him to post it. Sorry guys.

SamirCanada - 5-10-2005 at 09:44 PM

it has to be under 1 megabite.
Thats sad for us indeed since that means you have to lower the rec quality... or play less

or Talk to mike witch Iam shure he'll be able to hook you up.
thanks

here we go again

JT - 5-10-2005 at 09:51 PM

TruePharaoh21 - 5-10-2005 at 09:51 PM

Hey everyone.

I've discovered the following information about the "el-Atlal" file that I have (which I assume is the most common one and that most people here have this one). They were tuned very very slightly flat, and start on what I believe to be Rast on C. The Huzzam comes in later before she sings, in which they play it from A half-flat. Now, that's actually not too bad to play it from at all, but since I want to give everyone an equal chance of learning this, I think it'd be better if the song was put onto B half-flat instead. That way, you wouldn't have to move up the neck much to play most of the song (just trying to take all levels into consideration: amateur, intermediate, professional).

Anyway, I adjusted the pitch so that the file is now on B half-flat. From what I can gather, it's only off by about 8 cents or so, which isn't bad at all and will be generally unrecognizable to the majority of us. For those using Amazing Slow Downer, simply raise the pitch to 2.10.

I won't be able to upload it now, but I will have it for you all tomorrow (within about 12 hours or so), so please bare with me. By the way, considering that I've adjusted the pitch, the beginning is now Rast on D instead of C (sidenote: I only listened to it for a few seconds, so I'm not particularly 100% positive that it's Rast, but I want to get this out to you all first... if any of the more knowledgeable musicians here want to correct me, please do so).

Again, I'll have it up for you all soon. I'll post a link for you all to download it. The size is about 3.5 megs, so it won't fit here, but I have a site to put it on, so no worries.

I hope everyone is doing well here.

TP21

Yee Ha

JT - 5-10-2005 at 09:52 PM

Samir, thanks for the advice. This is a historic moment, it is the first time I have attached anything on this forum.

Cheers. :buttrock:

TruePharaoh21 - 5-10-2005 at 09:57 PM

Hey guys,

Seret el Hob is played on Rahat el Arwah (B half flat), and is very similar to Huzzam, with only a few minor touches here and there as far as the progression of the maqam goes. It's a very fun song to play. For those with the Amazing Slow Downer, +2.92 on the pitch will put you right there to be able to learn and play it. For the rest... let's take care of el-Atlal first, and then we'll go onto that.

You guys have me very excited about this post now.

TP21

SamirCanada - 5-10-2005 at 11:06 PM

Thanks JT.
I have a deal to make
I tought you how to attach a file..
you can teach me to play like that!

lol
If I can help with anything else let me know.
Iam excited to see how this post will go now now that u know how to post attachments we'll be in for a treat if yours truly will do us that favor!
Best wishes after this holy time of year
SAmir

Alarabi - 5-11-2005 at 06:12 AM

Hi everybody !
JT ! can you write done all the note for the three sikah baladi gammes?
Thanks

Hi All,

Sidi - 5-11-2005 at 08:18 AM

Fine thread you have here. Here's the genius himself performing "Al Atlal" on oud:

Riyad Sunbati - "Al Atlal" on Oud

Enjoy,

-Sidi :wavey:

TruePharaoh21 - 5-11-2005 at 10:16 AM

Hey everyone.

As promised, I just uploaded the file so that you all could get a chance at getting it. My recommendation would be to download this file as soon as possible, as it does take up a little bit of space. It's 3.27 MB, so for those on dial up... click to download and go have lunch. Right click on it and say save as, rather than just clicking on it, or else angelfire will throw up a nice notification for you.

Click here for El Atlal - modified pitch

Hope you have some fun with this!

TP21

habeebkum - 5-11-2005 at 11:30 AM

hi TP, when i click the link angelfire tells me that i cannot access it. do i have to sign up or something.
Sidi, thanx for that link. that is really beatiful.
JT, is this joseph tawadros?!!!

habeebkum - 5-11-2005 at 11:36 AM

is there anywhere i can download al atlal by sunbati? i love it!any CDs?

TruePharaoh21 - 5-11-2005 at 12:38 PM

habeebkum,

Right click on it and say save as. That should do the trick.

TP21

SamirCanada - 5-11-2005 at 01:38 PM

wow.. TP thats wicked
and weird too?
I could play along right away tho...so thats a good sign Iam shure.
Did the maqam change after the mod you did?
Thanks for the mod anyways

habeebkum - 5-11-2005 at 03:02 PM

it worked. thanx TP. i'll start trying to learn it tomorrow. better than studying thermodynamics for my finals!!!!!!

TruePharaoh21 - 5-11-2005 at 03:56 PM

Samir,

The maqam will never change regardless of what I do with the pitch. But yah, you should be able to play along relatively well now.

habeebkum,

Good luck on your tests, man. My physics class is doing special relativity this week and thermodynamics the next, so I kind of have a taste for what you're going through.

Enjoy the file.

TP21

Sikd Al Nawa

JT - 5-11-2005 at 04:45 PM

Hello.

For Samir. Deal!, For Alarabi here are the variations.

G, Ab1/4, Bb1/4(or B natural), C#1/4, D, Eb1/4, F#, G

G, Ab1/4, Bb1/4(or B natural), Cnatural, d, Eb1/4, F#, G

G, Ab1/4, Bb1/4(or B natural), C#1/4, D, Eb, F#, G

Enjoy.

Alarabi - 5-11-2005 at 07:04 PM

Wow thank you so much !!

I was looking for this information almost 2 years !! Even the website world maqam is no good, because the Arouh leemin sikah baladi is different, but they put it as an example for the normal Sikah biladi (for quarter tones)
Let me ask you, what kind of S Balady the arouh lemin is?
From where you found this information? from books or poeple?
But I think there is another variations of sikah baladi, the famoust one is
G;
A (b1/4);
B(b1/4);
C;
D;
E(b1/4);
F(#1/4)
Thank you so much, I'm very happy for your interesting replay, thanks to this forum and to Mike
Best regards

JT - 5-11-2005 at 07:44 PM

No problem. The one that you put in your last message was the second scale I listed.

i believe it is the second one, but it occasionally touches on the C#1/4 coming down, goes to the D and then back to C natural (this is a traditional pivot) you can hear it in the previous taqasim I posted. In the vocal part she uses the first one. Just think of the feeling, meaning of lyrics, analysis will come naturally after that. I hope that helps.

Anything else I can help with.

Cheers,

JT

Jameel - 5-12-2005 at 04:49 AM

JT,

I'm confused. Are you using the terms #1/4 and b1/4 for half-sharps and half-flats? If e half-flat is roughly half way between e flat and e natural, is e quarter flat half way between these two? What are you talking about?

JT - 5-12-2005 at 04:58 PM

Hello Jameel,

Yes, when I put #1/4 then its half sharp and same with b1/4 is half flat, I know it's not the best system so sorry about the confusion, but the QWERTY keyboard never accomodated the quarter tone on its keyboard.

Cheers,

JT

)

TruePharaoh21 - 5-12-2005 at 05:20 PM

oud_student Morcos,

You are indeed correct. The saba tetrachord is most certainly included in there.

Is there a particular part of it that you want to learn? If you request, I will post that part of the song with the speed slowed down so that you can follow along with the notes, if you like.

TP21

P.S. I can help you all with the music, but can any of you help me with the words? What I mean is, can anyone translate the song into English? I realize that much of the strong emotions associated in the Arabic words would be lost, but it's a start.

Al Atlal

Jameel - 5-12-2005 at 06:21 PM

From the liner notes of the EMI CD Riad El Soumbati Al Atlal:

"The Remains"

Sorrow and lamentation caused by the separation between two lovers are expressed in this sad love song. The beautiful voice of the artist conveys the feelings of loneliness and desperation within him. The Lyrics translate as follows: °Oh heart do not ask where has love gone ...- Let us drink on the remains of her memory... Tell them for my sake how that love became a memory... How can forget you after having seduced me with your sweet soft lips... And how am I to forget the way you reached out your hand for me as if to rescue me from drowning... I felt like a drowning person who saw the brightness of hope in your eyes... Give me back my freedom release me from my chains... I have given you everything that I have ... Why should I keep my love for you while you have shut me out from your heart... What Shall I do with all the promises that you made but did not keep..

SamirCanada - 5-12-2005 at 07:11 PM

Thats a good transcription. Jameel
If you want a different point of view,
Al-Atlal means the remains but also "the ruins" so the song expresses many of the feelings that are assosiated with that word.
It shows that there was something great before like a great love. And when it came crashing down you can see and feel the ruins of such a love and they are the scars that represent that.
hope this adds to the general feel of the song.
SAmir

TruePharaoh21 - 5-12-2005 at 08:25 PM

Morcos, I'd love for you to that. Thank you very much.

Please, try to download the file. I feel as though I have an obligation to let you have this file so that you may be able to learn the song without reservation.

I, too, am on dial up here at home, so I usually rely on streaming audio if I can get it. As such...

Right click and Save as

Angelfire will say you can't just click or something, so just right click and download it. It'll take all of 2 seconds.

TP21

SamirCanada - 5-12-2005 at 09:17 PM

Thank you TP for letting me know siret el hob was performed with Rahat el Arwah.
I had never been able to identify the maqam when I heard it.
I found out that that one of my favorite songs witch is called Aala Babi performed by Melhem Barakat is in that maqam. its a lot of fun to play along. Although Iam yet to be able to fully play along with siret el 7ob...

Perhaps many of you arent familiar with that composer and signer. I find he's a shining light for arabic music right now. Its pure tarab
http://songs.6arab.com/barakat..3ala-babi.ram
Enjoy :xtreme:

Samir

TruePharaoh21 - 5-12-2005 at 09:42 PM

Samir,

Seret el Hob is one of the songs I enjoy playing the most. Baligh Hamdi really knew what was going on when he wrote this. Keep in mind that not all of it is Rahat el Arwah, just a fragment of it. There's some Irak in there, some Suznak as well. Anyway, we'll get to that after everyone feels comfortable with el-Atlal, which was quoted by a friend of mine to take a year to master. I think with the modified pitch file, you guys will have it down much quicker than that!

TP21

TruePharaoh21 - 5-12-2005 at 09:48 PM

Jameel,

I almost forgot to thank you, man! I was so excited when you posted it, I went to go listen to it to see if I can match the word to the meaning. But I had my oud next to me, so I just ended up playing it. But still! Thank you very much! Is this the first verse, or first few verses or what?

TP21

SamirCanada - 5-12-2005 at 09:56 PM

Thanks TP
I'll have some time to practice more of al-Atlal over the weekend and you can let me know how its comming along. Hopefully JT we'll join us...
Cheers
SAmir

TruePharaoh21 - 5-12-2005 at 09:59 PM

Samir,

The first half of the song that I've heard so far isn't too difficult. I'd caution you all to be careful if you're playing a Nahawand tetrachord or a Rast one. That'll get your ears sharp.

Once you get some practice underway, and you're comfortable enough to record something for us, please feel free to do so.

For those of you who can read Arabic:

http://lmrk.free.fr/souma/al_atlal.gif

Enjoy, everyone!

TP21

habeebkum - 5-13-2005 at 01:11 PM

sidi, is there any way i can download riad sumbati songs that you posted the liks to? i can only play them by going to that website and clicking on it. is there anywhere i can buy it from. honestly that is my favourite kind of music. if you can help then let me know. thanks in advance

Hey Habeebna,

Sidi - 5-13-2005 at 04:35 PM

Sure I can help, I'll have Al-Atlal ready for you by 20:00GMT tomorrow. Tell me tonight if you need the other ones too. I'll pass them to you over the weekend.

-Sidi :wavey:

And here it is:

Sidi - 5-14-2005 at 12:00 PM

Al Atlal - By Riyad Sunbati on Oud (RealAudio - 5.7MBs)

**This link will remain active for 7 days, as of today.

Enjoy,

Sidi :wavey:

habeebkum - 5-14-2005 at 01:41 PM

thanks for posting that sidi. could you show me where to get the other song. much appreciated dude!

Hey Habeeb,

Sidi - 5-15-2005 at 12:17 PM

I don't think there's a place you can download those. Give me some time and I'll post them for everyone's enjoyment.

-Sidi

SamirCanada - 6-18-2005 at 10:24 PM

Hey TP
Do you think you could post Siret el Hob in a modified version?
Thanks
Samir

TruePharaoh21 - 6-18-2005 at 10:41 PM

Hey Samir,

I have the file on my other computer (which isn't working at the moment). I do, however, know how much the sound file should be altered by. If you download the Amazing Slow Downer, load that file you have for Seret el Hob (hopefully, it's the same as the one I have). Proceed to then change the pitch from 0 to +2.92 (or however close you can get it to that). You should be set from there. Once I fix my computer, I'll be sure to post it anyway for the sake of those who don't want to download the program.

TP21

P.S. Is everyone done with el-Atlal already!?!

SamirCanada - 6-19-2005 at 09:36 AM

Hey.. I got Al-Atlal prety much figured out.
I managed to get siret el hob pitched at +2.92 but the problem is that the evaluation period is what I got. So only the first 3 minutes are available to listen. It sounds really good tho TP.
thanks
Samir

oudplayer - 6-19-2005 at 02:59 PM

hey all
can someone post the osng in mp3 format so i can try
thx sammy

roddie - 6-25-2005 at 07:04 AM

7aram miskeeni, you made her sound like George Wassouf!

Keep up the great work, TP21 et al! I might be able to help with some storage and bandwidth on a few of these from my colocated server.

TruePharaoh21 - 10-25-2005 at 07:44 PM

Hey everyone,

So I finally got my computer up and running again a few weeks ago (the computer with all the sound files and the cool programs and stuff). If any of you are still interested in having Om Kolthoum songs modified to be the pitch that you can play them on the oud, please let me know. Also, if there are any other songs I can help with, please feel free to u2u me; I'll send you my e-mail address there, and then we could get the file up here in no time.

I have quite a number of Om Kolthoum songs that I know what pitch they should be at, and would be very happy to share with you all. I ask for nothing in return, except that you all have fun with them

TP21

SamirCanada - 3-2-2006 at 10:18 AM

For all those that were following this thread a while back. Please post what you have done so far with al-Atlal.
here's my shot of the begining parts.

roddie - 2-23-2021 at 07:18 PM

Yes, I'm resurrecting this thread from 15 years ago.

Why?

Because it's 15 years later and we can now handle larger files and better formats for music files, and I'm hoping some of the more recent members can get some value from this.

Also, I'm playing oud again after taking like 14 years off.

What was this topic about?

So, here's the gist - A long long long long long time ago a bunch of us were trying to play along with and learn Umm Kulthum songs and struggling because the tunings were sometimes "off" on a lot of the recordings.

What does "off" mean?

In some cases they were out of tune just enough so that the notes didn't match any standard tuning, which would make it almost impossible to play along with.

In other cases they were perhaps "in tune" but with a tonic note that would make the song very difficult to play on oud for most beginners (a Maqam on Bb for example).

Why were they off?

This was the subject of some debate and I'm not interested in relitigating it again, but we landed on three possibilities, any of which could be true for a given recording.

The tuning was intentional to match her voice in that particular recording session or concert.
The recording quality degraded over time and from format to format, and the originals probably weren't the best quality to begin with.
The tuning was intentional because that's how the composer wanted it to sound.

So what was the answer?

User TruePharaoh21 had a solution - He used a combination of tools (Amazing Slow Downer was one) to change the pitch of a given recording without adjusting the tempo. This was great!

However, the problem in 2005 was that we were dealing with RealAudio format due to file size limitations, and hosting those files (even though they were only a couple of MB in size) was also a challenge. Files would disappear after a few days, etc. etc.

So what now?

Now things are a bit different, and here's the reason I'm resurrecting this topic.

Back in 2001 or so, I bought a 72 CD Umm Kulthum boxed set which contains most of her recordings. The first thing I did when I got the set was to rip and encode each CD to MP3 (regrettably I didn't do FLAC, but the set is in my attic somewhere, so maybe some day I'll do it).

These MP3s have served me well over the years for casual listening, but I thought the other day - "Why don't I adjust the pitch and put them up on YouTube for the folks on the forum to use for practice and learning?"

So here I am.

I'm planning on starting with some of my favorites first (Serat El Hob, Baeed Anaak, Enta Omri, Al Atlal), but am happy to take requests. I haven't actually done one yet, but I'm sure once I get a rhythm (no pun intended) going, it won't take me too long. Most of the work will be spent figuring exactly how much to adjust the pitch and in which direction.

Once I get each song done, I'll upload it to YouTube (likely a "hidden" link to avoid DMCA hassles), and post the link here.

Is there a downside?

It depends on how much you've listened to the originals. Adjusting the pitch of the song will make it sound "different," even if it's more "in tune."
If you've got a good ear and you're used to the originals, it will sound off. It won't be quite as "off" as changing the key of a song in Western music, but difference in the sound of certain instruments (percussion), or in Umm Kulthum's voice may be noticeable.

That said, you'll be able to play along with them easier, which is the whole point of this.

Note: The songs will be the same tempo, and the intervals and maqamat will not change. It's literally just changing the overall pitch of the song to get it to a tuning that is more useful to beginning oud players like me.

Please let me know if you have any questions or comments or ideas! This was just something I came up with over the weekend, so I'm happy for any feedback.

Roddie

Badra - 4-4-2021 at 07:31 PM

Resurrecting a 15 year old post is great.

Ok, I actually have some experience in what you're talking about. I haven't worked on Um Kalthoum, but my Youtube channel is for Farid El Atrache. One of the things I do is fix the speed of the audio to obtain natural pitch. What I quickly realized is that all the films, including the songs in the films are sped up by 3 to 6%. I believe this change occurred after decades of transfers. I don't think the original film reels were sped up.

For studio and concert recordings, yes, they can be off. Sometimes they could be too slow. I generally don't adjust a recording's speed if it's less than 1.5% off standard concert pitch, if the instruments being used are Arabic string instruments. Because I believe it's possible that the orchestra is off concert pitch by this small amount. However If the song includes piano, brass, etc., then I will take the deviation more seriously and consider making the changes.

My advice is adjust the tempo as well as the pitch. Besides making it more oud playable, actually try to fix the speed. If the pitch is off because of the wrong speed, then the tempo should absolutely change as well. I feel you will be doing something more important than making the song more playable, you will be fixing the speed! If you're talking 1 or 2%, nobody would notice. 3% I believe is right in the area that makes it more difficult to follow the song on a properly tuned instrument. That's right in the middle between a semi-tone. Use your ear to determine if it should be 3% faster or slower.

TruePharaoh21 - 4-4-2021 at 08:43 PM

If there's one thing that's truly amazing about this thread, it's that so many of the people commenting from back then are still here. And some of us have stayed in touch after a decade and a half.

Hope you're all well.

Badra - 4-6-2021 at 07:35 AM

Indeed, good to see you too Peter. Kudos to Mike for keeping the site going all these years. I'm still in constant contact with a friend I met 20+ years ago on Wassim's site. He advises me on my current project. I fully expect us to be here 20 years from now too, god willing. Because love of music will always be a part of our lives.