Mike's Oud Forums

Just a cool old record label

Jonathan - 10-14-2005 at 10:54 AM

There are some incredible pictures on old 78 record labels. I don't know if anybody other than me cares about this sort of thing, but I thought I would share one of my favorites. Parsekian records, out of Hoboken, NJ of all places. Who would have thought something like this would have come out of Hoboken! Super early. Probably before 1920. Wish the oud was a bit clearer.

Dr. Oud - 10-14-2005 at 11:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan
There are some incredible pictures on old 78 record labels. I don't know if anybody other than me cares about this sort of thing, but I thought I would share one of my favorites. Parsekian records, out of Hoboken, NJ of all places. Who would have thought something like this would have come out of Hoboken! Super early. Probably before 1920. Wish the oud was a bit clearer.

Wow, cool, and a lefty, to! Maybe that's where Jimi Hendrix got the idea, huh?

Jonathan - 10-14-2005 at 12:15 PM

I kind of thought that was strange, too, but maybe the image just got reversed when the record was made. Don't know.

al-Halabi - 10-14-2005 at 02:49 PM

Interesting picture. There is, by the way, an inconsistency in the identification of the musical piece: in Turkish it is listed as Hicaz saz semai and in English as Hicaz pesrev.
As was common in the early recordings of Middle Eastern music, the percussionist's name is not listed on the label, unlike the violin and oud players. Percussionists were generally regarded as being the lowest in status in a traditional ensemble, below the melody instruments. The vocalist, if there was one, enjoyed the highest status.

I'm curiouis, in what key are they playing this Hicaz piece?

Jonathan - 10-14-2005 at 03:19 PM

I will dig it up later tonight and let you know. Or, if you prefer, I would be happy to post it.
The artist on this is a bit of a puzzler. I don't know Harry's last name, but I believe this guy was just called Kemani Harry. If anybody else knows, I would be interested. Who is Bashian? So, there are 2 artists there: Kemani Harry, and some guy named Bashian.
I am in the process of digitizing all of my old 78s--cleaning up the sound with a tiny bit of filtering, and that is about it. I have not gotten to this one, unfortunately, so if I post it, it may sound a bit rough. Pretty amazing, though, how good these 78s can sound if you play them with the right stylus. And, the right speed. That last thing might seem basic, but it is not. 78s were often not really 78rpm. The four most common speeds are 71.29 rpm, 76.59 rpm, 78.26 rpm, and 80 rpm. That's part of the reason some old recordings just don't seem at the right pitch. Even when they have been re-issued on cd, a lot of the time care was not given to research what speed to play the record at for the remastering. Not a big deal for the stuff from the 1940s and 1950s, but when you go back to the 1920s and earlier, it is super important.
I wish that there was a bit more done to preserve some of this music. My main interest is in Turkish music performed in America. This was often done not just by Turks, but Armenians, Greeks, and Jews. It is not that I think the music recorded in America is in any way better, it is just that, for a lot of reasons, I think it is completely overlooked. So, there are some awesome tracks from the 1910s and 1920s, that have never been reissued, and probably never will be. (Although Tradtional Crossroads did release a superb cd of Armenians in New York performing Turkish melodies from the 1940s).
Some of these little labels reissued tracks that were originally released in Turkey, but some, including Parsekian, released material that was recorded in the USA. Parsekian is one of my favorite labels. Another is Margossians.

adamgood - 10-15-2005 at 12:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan
My main interest is in Turkish music performed in America. This was often done not just by Turks, but Armenians, Greeks, and Jews. It is not that I think the music recorded in America is in any way better, it is just that, for a lot of reasons, I think it is completely overlooked.


Jonathan,

Really interesting that you are into this...

From your experience, are the performances of say, Turkish music performed by Turks, Armenians, Greeks and Jews mostly vocal repertoire? or do you also have lots of instrumental performances? Saz Semai or peshrev? Judging by the pic you posted, yes but wow, I'm just curious...for some reason it never occured to me that inst. stuff had been done in the US.

AND...if you can easily post a sound sample...I'd (probably we'd) love to hear!

all the best,

Adam Good

Andy - 10-15-2005 at 08:24 AM

Jonathan,
Leon Janikian, Professor and also one of the countries leading clarinetists in Armenian American circles from Boston's Northeastern Uniniversity, I believe, probably, is the one who has a tremendous amount of knowledge and one of the biggest collectors of Armenian, Turkish, Arabic, Greek recorded music played by Armenians. He does have a web site and I am sure he has contact information. BTW, he usually plays with oud master Harry Minassian. I believe if you have questions Leon would know. I will try to find his site and get back to you. If you have gone to Hartford Kefs then you know who Leon, he usually plays with Harry Minassian and Roger.

Jonathan - 10-15-2005 at 09:04 AM

Thanks, guys. Andy, I think I actually had some brief email correspondence with Professor Janikian a year or so ago. His website is: http://www.armenianmusicarch.com
There is actually another east coast collector/musician who has thousands of these recordings that I have traded with a bit.
Adam, most of it is folk music with vocals, but there is a small amount of classical instrumental music. I will get around to posting some stuff soon, I promise.
When I started collecting these, nobody really wanted the 78s. You have to wonder how many were simpy tossed out. And I think some of them were pressed in just absolutely tiny numbers.
Look at the price on the label, though: $1.00. A heck of a lot of money, when you consider that a lot of adults were making about $3 or $4 a day at the time. (When Henry Ford offered $5, that was big money).
With oud, unfortunately, a lot of subtleties of the playing seem to get lost on these old recordings. I guess that it is lost not just because the recording quality wasn't much, but also that musicians must have altered there own style of playing to adapt to the limitations of the recording equipment.
Give me a couple days--I will get some stuff up there.

Jonathan - 10-15-2005 at 09:19 AM

The kemani player, though, is likely a guy named Harry Hassekian, and the 'ud player Everett Bashian. I have seen a picture of these two at an Assyrian picnic in MA from 1950--I will try to dig it up. The only problem I have is that the 78 is old. I can't imagine it being too much past 1920 at the latest (I wish I could find out more about this label), and the Assyrian picnic is from 1950. Harry is an older guy in that pic, but, heck, he doesn't look like a youngster above, either.

Peyman - 10-15-2005 at 09:45 AM

Quote:
It is not that I think the music recorded in America is in any way better, it is just that, for a lot of reasons, I think it is completely overlooked.


I was surprised to read the USA label too. I had noticed that a lot of early recordings from Turkey, Iran, Azerbayjan, were done in Europe (London and Paris) but it is surprising to see one made in USA. I can't imagine them coming to America for recording purposes only. I am curious to know more about these guys. Great Find!

adamgood - 10-15-2005 at 10:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan
Thanks, guys. Andy, I think I actually had some brief email correspondence with Professor Janikian a year or so ago. His website is: http://www.armenianmusicarch.com


wow what a nice site! I just listened to a Marko Melkon taksim. Is that unreleased on CD? I'd never heard it before. Man his playing was just...so great, totally.
Quote:

There is actually another east coast collector/musician who has thousands of these recordings that I have traded with a bit.


sounds like Ara?
Quote:

Adam, most of it is folk music with vocals, but there is a small amount of classical instrumental music. I will get around to posting some stuff soon, I promise.


i would absolutely love to hear some of the classical stuff. I have too many other things to listen to already and now you bring this into the mix. It's really nice of you to offer! Thank you Jonathan.
Quote:

Look at the price on the label, though: $1.00. A heck of a lot of money, when you consider that a lot of adults were making about $3 or $4 a day at the time. (When Henry Ford offered $5, that was big money).


funny you mention, I thought the exact same thing. to make a comparison iTunes store sells a single track for $.99 so...well, i suppose on a 78 you got yourself a "B side" so figure $.50 per track :) but still a heck of a lot of money.

I have to say this, we're incredibly fortunate in the US to have so many collections of Turkish, Armenian and Greek music well preserved in people's attics. And enthusiastic people like you and Ara seeing the artistic value in it and collecting as much as possible. In Turkey I'm sure I could find lots of people who could give me the opportunity to hold a vintage Cemil Bey 78 in my hands but i imagine one of the only other places in the world is the US.

Just chalk it up to certain circumstances...

Like unfortunately I can imagine that tons of Jewish/Klezmer music was lost due to WWII and that's such a shame. Many things made it through and have been released on CD, and of course some hasn't made it to CD yet.

adam

Jonathan - 10-15-2005 at 10:16 AM

I think, though, Adam, that a lot of this music is endangered as well, for several reasons, all of which are beyond the scope of this board.

That Marko track is otherwise unreleased. I posted a link to it on the Professional sound clips section of this board a while back. There are some superb Marko tracks that were initially recorded on 78 that still have not been released on cd. I can't figure that one out. When Mike gets back, I will forward them to him so he can post them if he wants.

You mentioned Jewish/Klezmer music. A related area of interest to me is Turkish music recorded by Jews in the US. My two favorites are Louis Matalon (an oud player), and Victoria Hazan (A singer who recorded some great sides with Marko backing her on oud). Hazan's stuff was actually re-issued on a cd of miserable quality a few years back--if a little care was put into it, it would have sounded much better. The oud, as would be expected, is very, very nice.

Peyman, it is not that these guys came to the US to record, but rather that they were initially from the Ottoman Empire, and at the time of these recordings, lived in the United States. Some of them were respected musicians in the Ottoman Empire. Others were just trying to preserve their fading memories of the folk songs they heard in their native land.

Peyman - 10-15-2005 at 11:33 AM

Uh, that makes it clearer. I thought they came here just to record.

DD - 10-15-2005 at 11:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan
I am in the process of digitizing all of my old 78s--cleaning up the sound with a tiny bit of filtering, and that is about it. I have not gotten to this one, unfortunately, so if I post it, it may sound a bit rough. Pretty amazing, though, how good these 78s can sound if you play them with the right stylus. And, the right speed. That last thing might seem basic, but it is not. 78s were often not really 78rpm. The four most common speeds are 71.29 rpm, 76.59 rpm, 78.26 rpm, and 80 rpm. That's part of the reason some old recordings just don't seem at the right pitch. Even when they have been re-issued on cd, a lot of the time care was not given to research what speed to play the record at for the remastering. Not a big deal for the stuff from the 1940s and 1950s, but when you go back to the 1920s and earlier, it is super important.


Hi Jonathan, do you know about Disk Doctor? If you haven't tried it, then like me, you might be astonished at how that particular kind of physical/chemical cleaning clears up the sound. It's good for all records, including the early shellac, etc., 78s.

I'd been using another system for 20 years when I first got the Disk Doctor kit 3 years ago, and I thought I'd put the new system to a sort of acid test with 5 abused old Peter, Paul, and Mary albums that I'd bought as a lot for about $1. When I put the first record on after cleaning/treatment, my jaw dropped: The background was basically SILENT; I actually looked to see that the cue lever had released the cartridge onto the the track, and as I did that, the voices and guitars were suddenly in the same room with me.

I wonder what can be done about the speed on those early disks? (A record-playback technique that I recall from cartoons of that period is to have a mouse near the spindle, running at the appropriate speed, but I think that that might only work for people with the technical skills of Betty Boop.) Of course, the records could be mastered first onto a high-quality tape recorder with pitch control—say, a Nakamichi BX300—if one knew the correct pitch to key into, and then digitized from that. Those Naks can be obtained in good condition for about 1/8th of their original 1970s price; I got mine for $200 delivered.

A few thoughts, anyway. Take care.

adamgood - 10-15-2005 at 11:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan
I think, though, Adam, that a lot of this music is endangered as well, for several reasons, all of which are beyond the scope of this board.

hmmmm i am very curious what you are thinking here...
Quote:
That Marko track is otherwise unreleased.

Sounds to be live ya? was it from a released 78? or a sort of field recording from an enthusiast?
Quote:
You mentioned Jewish/Klezmer music. A related area of interest to me is Turkish music recorded by Jews in the US. My two favorites are Louis Matalon (an oud player), and Victoria Hazan (A singer who recorded some great sides with Marko backing her on oud).

I have a copy of the Victoria Hazan CD via a woman vocalist in NYC i work with sometimes. She used to travel to South Brooklyn to the Sephardic Home (i think that's what it's called) to visit Victoria Hazan in her elderly age. And learn songs from her. Yes, those are great recordings and yes, they sound really not so good. AND the text is pretty awful to boot.

The ud player you mention I've never heard of. Was he a New York City guy? wow my knowledge of musicians in the US is really limited! I'd love to hear more about Jews playing Turkish in America. I'm always on a quest to hear more "Turkish or Greek" related Sephardic recordings.

Speaking of Jews performing Turkish music, and I know you know this guy, I recently acquired the CD reissue of Rabbi Izak Algazi Efendi 78s. WOW!!! what a singer he was. Beautiful beautiful singing.

Adam

adamgood - 10-15-2005 at 12:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DD
I wonder what can be done about the speed on those early disks? (A record-playback technique that I recall from cartoons of that period is to have a mouse near the spindle, running at the appropriate speed, but I think that that might only work for people with the technical skills of Betty Boop.) Of course, the records could be mastered first onto a high-quality tape recorder with pitch control—say, a Nakamichi BX300—if one knew the correct pitch to key into, and then digitized from that. Those Naks can be obtained in good condition for about 1/8th of their original 1970s price; I got mine for $200 delivered.


DD,
Am I such a product of the digital age? Wouldn't it be ok to record the 78 into the computer at the best quality possible and then slow the ptich/speed of the playback to where it sits comfortably? Seems obvious but you must be aware of something I'm not and so it's better to use an analog deck? I'm learning so much today.

For the past few days I've been taking some tracks by, let's say, Cemil Bey as released by Traditional Crossroads and slowing it WAY down to where it feels that a) the playing, phrases and ornaments feel normal and not Chipmunk and b) pitch feels right.

for his Rast taksim on tanbur it came down 1 whole step. I'm amazed at the difference in feeling.

Jonathan - 10-15-2005 at 03:11 PM

Guys, you can by a turntable that has been modified to play at all of the standard "78 rpm" speeds--the four I mentioned above. The company is called Re-Ko-Cut, and they pretty much modify a Technics turntable, I believe. And, they are not that pricey. I had to switch to that when my mouse died.
Yeah, Disc Doctor is great. The thing to remember is not to use alcohol on those old 78s, 'cuz it destroys them.
And, there is a computer program you can get called Audio Clean Up Lab. There are bunch of programs and I guess they are all pretty much the same. I just check to see which "track" is better--the right or the left. A lot of time there is uneven groove wear, so one side might be in incredible shape while the other side of the track is shot. Then, I make it two track mono. Pretty simple. A roll of a tiny bit off the top to get rid of the hiss, and I am done. I don't like doing a lot. I would rather live with the crackles than kill off the life of the recording.
Adam, if you want, I could make you a cd of some stuff and send it to you. Or, I could email it to you.

Jonathan - 10-15-2005 at 03:19 PM

I am trying to figure out how to limit the file size so I can post a couple of things. I know I used I Tunes once before to do this. I will figure it out sooner or later. Ususally I would just send this stuff to Mike. I will figure it out, though.

SamirCanada - 10-15-2005 at 03:31 PM

What model of technics tables do they use? Because now days a sl-1200 mk2 will cost you around 700$ in most stores.
Just wondering thanks

DD - 10-15-2005 at 04:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by adamgood
Quote:
Originally posted by DD
I wonder what can be done about the speed on those early disks? (A record-playback technique that I recall from cartoons of that period is to have a mouse near the spindle, running at the appropriate speed, but I think that that might only work for people with the technical skills of Betty Boop.) Of course, the records could be mastered first onto a high-quality tape recorder with pitch control—say, a Nakamichi BX300—if one knew the correct pitch to key into, and then digitized from that. Those Naks can be obtained in good condition for about 1/8th of their original 1970s price; I got mine for $200 delivered.


DD,
Am I such a product of the digital age? Wouldn't it be ok to record the 78 into the computer at the best quality possible and then slow the ptich/speed of the playback to where it sits comfortably? Seems obvious but you must be aware of something I'm not and so it's better to use an analog deck? I'm learning so much today.

For the past few days I've been taking some tracks by, let's say, Cemil Bey as released by Traditional Crossroads and slowing it WAY down to where it feels that a) the playing, phrases and ornaments feel normal and not Chipmunk and b) pitch feels right.

for his Rast taksim on tanbur it came down 1 whole step. I'm amazed at the difference in feeling.


Thank you for asking. I was thinking in terms of making new masters of sorts, or archives. Yes, it's the general concensus among audiophiles that preserving the analog signal as far as possible—ideally all the way up to recording the actual digital disk—will provide the highest quality playback. In this case, of course, with ancient 78s, highest quality might be the minimum quality we want to go for! Most people are perfectly astonished at what a Nakamichi tape deck can achieve in that regard, BTW; the old Naks are phenomenal.

Now..I'm not even thinking of anything more compressed than a normal CD; I rarely touch the stuff other than to listen to sound samples of a disk I'm considering buying. So I think we might have a case here not only of your perfectly understandable and valid perspective's being influenced by the digital age, but also of my audio-puritanical perspective's being influenced by trying to forget that some of it ever happened.

I enjoyed reading of our experiences with the Cemil Bey tracks (nice use of digital compression IMO ;-)

Jonathan - 10-15-2005 at 04:35 PM

I got my rek-o-kut turntable from esotericsound.com. I got the cheapest one there--less than $300. I think it is a modified Technics, but I could be wrong.

DD - 10-15-2005 at 04:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan
Guys, you can by a turntable that has been modified to play at all of the standard "78 rpm" speeds--the four I mentioned above. The company is called Re-Ko-Cut, and they pretty much modify a Technics turntable, I believe. I had to switch to that when my mouse died.


Yeah, as soon as I posted my first reply I thought that most likely people who knew what you knew about "78" RPM had somehow managed a simple TT mod. I doubt that you needed to go that route, though: As I recall, when you lose one mouse, the nearest ink bottle turns into another one.

Jonathan - 10-15-2005 at 04:46 PM

DD, the thing I have learned about these 78s is that the sound quality can be shockingly good. The main thing is to have the right stylus. Most people think the sound quality stinks because they have heard these 78s, with their huge grooves, played back with a thin little stylus made for microgrooves. That little stylus just won't sit in the groove right. It picks up all the surface noise, and not enought of the music. But, the right stylus changes everything. The fanatics will even have different sizes of stylii for the different era of 78s. I am not that hard core. Or, a truncated stylus--if the bottom of the groove is worn out, the truncated stylus will sit higher in the groove and, again, give good sound.
I can't figure out how to get anything posted. I might have to wait for Mike to get back.

Jonathan - 10-15-2005 at 04:49 PM

Adam, if you want, send me your email, and I can email you a couple of tracks to compare with that Hazan re-issue you have--you will see it is like hearing them for the first time.

Jonathan - 10-15-2005 at 04:54 PM

I guess he was a lefty, Dr. Oud, because here is that picture that I was talking about :
George Elbag dumbeg, Kemani Harry Hassekian, and Everett Bashian, with Barsam Deniha on def.

DD - 10-15-2005 at 04:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan
DD, the thing I have learned about these 78s is that the sound quality can be shockingly good. The main thing is to have the right stylus. Most people think the sound quality stinks because they have heard these 78s, with their huge grooves, played back with a thin little stylus made for microgrooves. That little stylus just won't sit in the groove right. It picks up all the surface noise, and not enought of the music. But, the right stylus changes everything. The fanatics will even have different sizes of stylii for the different era of 78s. I am not that hard core. Or, a truncated stylus--if the bottom of the groove is worn out, the truncated stylus will sit higher in the groove and, again, give good sound.


Right, I remember now. Love it.

Jonathan - 10-15-2005 at 05:04 PM

So, here is something somebody else might want to consider. About 5 or 10 years ago, I read an article that explained that a lot of old 78s had multiple masters. The musicians were at one end of the room, and, in front of them, there might be several machines arranged right to left, all recording original masters direct to the mother disc, each of which was then used to go ahead and, eventually, stamp out a bunch of shellac 78s. So, a lot of the time, 78s with the same number will sound a bit different. It's not just that they are old, and that some have been preserved better than others. It is that, at times, the mix is actually different, because, although all were recorded at the same time, some masters were closer to one end of the room, and some closer to the other side.
So. . .you can probably guess where this is going.
Let's say you had one 78 that was pressed from the master on the left hand side of the room, and another that was pressed from the master made on the right hand side of the room. You could re-create a true stereo recording. Wouldn't that be incredible if you could kick back and listen to Tanburi Cemil Bey in true stereo?
I don't have the resources. I am happy to find one old 78 of music that I like, and have always traded away the duplicates. But, I hope somebody out there considers this.
I am not all that knowledgeable about the recording process, so somebody out there might set me straight and tell me I got it wrong, but it would seem theoretically possible. And, it is not my idea. I just can't remember where I read the article. And, to my recollection, the guy that wrote the article had not attempted to create a true stereo recording from a couple of 78s, but just suggested it would be possible.

syrianoud - 10-15-2005 at 05:23 PM

Jonathan I love all these old pictures , reminds me the old good days in the Middle east , And all the old labels ,I used to throw all these things to the trash did not know the real value of it in these days . keep posting things that is very interesting and pleasure to look at .That is History and not these days, These where the good days where we lived in pieace ,happy no worry ,You do not know because you where born here but i am sure that your parents have told you alot ,Since I have a real good imige about you , in the short time we met and spoke at the Shaheen concert ,I could tell that you are in to the Middle eastern things ,That is part of your Armenian coultrure too .That is nice , I enjoy many things that you post and now I have to coment that this is very nice . Regards my friend ... Samir ,California

adamgood - 10-15-2005 at 05:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan
Let's say you had one 78 that was pressed from the master on the left hand side of the room, and another that was pressed from the master made on the right hand side of the room. You could re-create a true stereo recording. Wouldn't that be incredible if you could kick back and listen to Tanburi Cemil Bey in true stereo?
I don't have the resources. I am happy to find one old 78 of music that I like, and have always traded away the duplicates. But, I hope somebody out there considers this.

Jonathan,
Unbelievable I never thought of that. and if there's more than 2 masters then we could have Tanburi Cemil Bey in Surround Sound.

bizarre and cool! and now we're out of our minds...

Maybe you could have problems with phasing? er...something like that? if two mics of similar or equal quality are picking up the same sound source from different distances your results can or will be out of phase? er...yeah? I forget this stuff from acoustics class. Eliot Bates can probably set us straight, i think he works some times as an audio engineer, and he posts to this board.

now that you mention it i remember someone doing this with an old Charlie Parker gig. 2 people in audience had machines running at the same time and made a quasi stereo recording.

adam

adamgood - 10-15-2005 at 05:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan
Adam, if you want, send me your email, and I can email you a couple of tracks to compare with that Hazan re-issue you have--you will see it is like hearing them for the first time.


Jonathan,

I sent you a private email with my address. Let me know if you don't get it for some reason.

thank you so much!

Adam

Jonathan - 10-15-2005 at 05:44 PM

Cool. I just sent you some tracks. If you can figure out how to get that Marko/Hazan duet up here, go for it.

Jonathan - 10-15-2005 at 05:52 PM

Thanks, Samir, for your kind words. It is not that I consider it a part of my Armenian culture (although it is that), but rather that I view it as a part of a shared cultural heritage of the people of Anatolia. Turks, Armenians, Greeks, Jews, Assyrians, Laz, Kurds, Gypsies . . .
And I guess I am attracted to those art forms that are, in a way, slipping away from us without being adequately documented.
My folks were actually born here, but I know where you are coming from, and appreciate the kind words.
I am sure that similar arguments could be made for the music of the Arab world, it is just that I am not as familiar with that music.