Mike's Oud Forums

Hamza Usta oud Restoration

Dr. Oud - 10-17-2005 at 11:32 AM

I just finished the restoration of a 1900 era oud by Hamza Usta for John Belezikijian. I thought I'd post a few pictures each day here for you guys. This one is how the oud arrived, except I have removed the fiber shelf liner that had been covering the face. The eyun had been replaced, and the face had holes scratched through in 2 places, at the edge of the pickguard and between the big and small right soundholes.

Dr. Oud - 10-17-2005 at 11:33 AM

Here's the inside of the back with the face removed,

Dr. Oud - 10-17-2005 at 11:35 AM

and the inside of the face, complete with 100 years of dust.

SamirCanada - 10-17-2005 at 12:17 PM

your Right Jonathan.
This is for shure a one of a kind oud and it diserves documentation. Its known that no body was allowed to watch as he worked on the bracing right? so now that you have seen it first hand? Would you say there is a lot to learn from the way he had his bracing done? or does it compare to a Nahat or any other well built oud?
Thanks a lot.

Dr. Oud - 10-17-2005 at 01:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SamirCanada
your Right Jonathan.
This is for shure a one of a kind oud and it diserves documentation. Its known that no body was allowed to watch as he worked on the bracing right? so now that you have seen it first hand? Would you say there is a lot to learn from the way he had his bracing done? or does it compare to a Nahat or any other well built oud?
Thanks a lot.

The neck block is original, but the carved relief is not. As later pictures will show, this oud was abusedly "repaired" almost to the point of destruction and was my greatest challenge and my most gratifying restoration to date.
As for Manol's secrecy, I don't believe so. Manol trained many oud makers, the most famous was Onnik Uner, known as Karibyan. Karibyan in turn trained other makers, including our Dincer, and Moustafa among others I'm sure. We can thank the Turkish apprentice tradition for continuing and improving oud design.
The braces are very different than any Arabic oud. Nahat used a thin, tall and tapering brace, which varied in height relative to their length, and tapered to a knife edge at the top. The base of the Nahat braces are 4mm at the center and tapered to 3mm at the ends. The soundboard thickness is about the same, 1.7-1.8 mm in the center section, and tapering to 1mm at the bass edge and 1.25 at the treble edge. Nahat also relieved the face, although not as deep as the Manol - (the top rib is shaped to form a concave plane from the bridge to the large sound hole).
Gamil George used a different but still effective design, seen in ouds buiult by Maurice today. This soundboard is thicker, 2.4-2.5 in the center, and the braces are wider but much shorter with almost no taper. The George is also a flat face with no relief at all.
The Manol ( and Karibyan as well, and probably every Turkish oud made since) braces are thicker, shorter in height and with less taper and have a more rounded top edge. The defining difference is the brace below the small hole. This brace is scalloped or relieved down to about 6mm high at the center. You can see the shapes in this picture. Here I had to gluing splices at the ends of each brace to replace material lost in the last "repair". The braces didn't fit the across the body and had spacer blocks inserted at the end of the braces to glue to the top rib. I used spruce from the 100 year old piano brace.

Jonathan - 10-17-2005 at 03:27 PM

Off topic, but are we sure that Manol trained Onnik? I know that this is the widely held belief, but is it true? Is there anything that actually documents that? Onnik Uner Karibyan was probably born in 1900. Manol died, I believe, in 1916. Yes, it could be that he trained Onnik, but doesn't it seem like a bit of a stretch?
Dincer, you seem like the historian here as far as Turkish/Istanbul ouds--perhaps you can enlighten us.

Dr. Oud - 10-17-2005 at 03:41 PM

John has another Manol oud and the identical appearance led him to assume it was made by Manol. Even the label has the same border and script style as his other one. Here's a pic of the braces laid out on the new AAA grade German Spruce face. ($100 @ LMI!) If you look closely you'll notice a different shape and location of the end return on each brace.

Jameel - 10-17-2005 at 03:55 PM

Slowly, Doc, Slowly! Give us some time to take it all in!

Great to see this restoration on the site. Fantastic.

I really like your comment comparing the different bracing styles of the different makers. The frustration of secret bracing techniques in the end probably adds to the richness and variety of the oud's voice.

What are the new roses made from?

Dr. Oud - 10-17-2005 at 04:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jameel
Slowly, Doc, Slowly! Give us some time to take it all in!

Great to see this restoration on the site. Fantastic.

I really like your comment comparing the different bracing styles of the different makers. The frustration of secret bracing techniques in the end probably adds to the richness and variety of the oud's voice.

What are the new roses made from?

They're micarda, and it's supposed to fade and resemble ivory (from 10 feet away anyway, huh?) Viken made the roses.

Dr. Oud - 10-18-2005 at 02:32 AM

Here's the label after cleaning. I used alcohol and a q-tip, rolling the q-tip across a small spot at a time and skipping around the label to avoid getting it too wet. This resulted in no loss of ink or pencil, the damage was there when I found it. The number penciled in is 1241, and if this is the date in the Islamic calendar, rather than a serial number, it was built in 1863, when he was 18. Shazam!

Jonathan - 10-18-2005 at 05:29 AM

Wow. So this is the earliest known Manol. Can anybody translate the rest of the label? Dr. Oud, the original rosettes looked ok. The replacements look great, or course. But I am shocked how good the originals looked (the center one, at least, sure looked original).

Faladel - 10-18-2005 at 06:29 AM

in this label I read:
workship authorized
work of HAMZA OUSTAH
Nomber 1341........Not 1242

Dr. Oud - 10-18-2005 at 07:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan...Dr. Oud, the original rosettes looked ok. The replacements look great, or course. But I am shocked how good the originals looked (the center one, at least, sure looked original).

The small roses (eyun? in Arabic, Tukish =?) were white plastic and very crude. The center rose (shamis?) was also plastic. All of them as well as the braces were glued on with epoxy, because neither hot water, steam or any solvent or would soften the glue. The only way to remove them was with heat, and since John didn't care to keep them I used a heat gun to soften the glue. One small rose simply dissapeared in a puff of smoke, so I used a hot knife to get the others off. The center rose still melted before the glue softened in some places anyway. If they were horn or bone, the heat would not have affected them this way. John wanted the original face returned intact without these plastic replacements on it, so they're dicardable items. The braces were repaired and re-used.
Faladel - With all due respect, I believe there there is some confusion about the "2" and "3" in Arabic numerals. In my Arabic class I learned that the single loop denotes "2" and "3" is written with 2 loops. I'm not an expert in this area, but this is to the best of my knowledge. If this is a "3". what does a "2" look like?
Here's a picture of the original face cleared off. There's a hole at the edge of the pickguard and the edge of the right eyun, patches in the lower bout and missing sections around the edge.

Jonathan - 10-18-2005 at 09:57 AM

Faladel, do you know what it says on the very bottom? Thanks a lot.

Label

spyrosc - 10-18-2005 at 10:11 AM

Doc,

The number can be either 1341 or 1241 depending on how you interpret one digit, and it is definitely a serial number NOT a date.

Furthermore, it says it is the work of Hamza Usta NOT Manol as Faladel said.

I also have seen other Manol labels from the 1880's and this doesn't look like one of them.

Are you sure this is a Manol ?

Jonathan, the bottom line is a (not very clear) address in Istambul. With some effort and a larger picture we might be able to make it out and compare it with the known address of Manol's workshop.

Spyros C.

Dr. Oud - 10-18-2005 at 10:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by spyrosc...Are you sure this is a Manol ?

Jonathan, the bottom line is a (not very clear) address in Istambul. With some effort and a larger picture we might be able to make it out and compare it with the known address of Manol's workshop.

Spyros C.

Oh man! I'm glad you guys are here to clear things up. John B. thought it was a Manol based on it's similarieties to his others. It'll be great to make a positive ID - Thanks, boys. Let's see if this enlargement is more legible:

oudmaker - 10-18-2005 at 10:50 AM

Gentlemen,

First the label:

Mekteb-i sanayi mezunlarindan (A Graduate of School of Artizans)
HAMZA Usta mamulatidir ( Made by HAMZA Usta )
Numaru (Number 1341)

Line outside of the label reads:
Husnitabiat(Iam not sure) matbaasi - Istanbul (this is name of the printer of the label)

So this oud according to its label made by Hamza Usta who was the had apprentice of Manol. IT IS NOT A MANOL OUD. Nobody can put his label in an oud while he was working for his master. I have a picture of Hamza Usta with his apprentice Hadi usta taken in front of a Manol mold. Engin who is the son of Hadi Usta generously gave me a copy. I do not know how to put it in this forum. Hamza Usta ouds are almost as valuable as Manol's.

Secondly I found out lately Onnik Usta was not an apprentice of Manol. However earlier he copied Manol ouds. I have a Onnik dated 1928 exactly looks as a Manol oud. I do not remember but in some place I heard that He studied and learn oudmaking from his elder brother also was a oudmaker.

Thirdly, I have been told by both Hadi Usta and Murat Usta that Manol never show anybody how to glue the top on; not as mentioned above how to place the bracings. It is not a secret. You open any Manol and you can see them. There are many stories about the glue he used. Murat usta said that he was using glass dust in his hide glue. Murat Usta was an apprentice of Uskudarli Mustafa Usta who was an apprentice of Manol as well.Today we now three oudmaker worked in Manols shop Hamza Usta, Ankarali Galip Usta and Uskudarli Mustafa Usta.
Although I met Onnik Usta but I studied and learn oudmaking both from Murat Usta and Hadi Usta.

Dr. Oud
Your last bracing is misplaced. Original bracing is correct. Just copy them .The distance between last two bracings from the bottom should be almost twice the distance of second and third half high bracing. By the way that third half bracing called DUGAH bracing and it is very critical for sound of DUGAH string.

Dincer

Dr. Oud - 10-18-2005 at 11:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by oudmaker....Dr. Oud
Your last bracing is misplaced. Original bracing is correct. Just copy them .The distance between last two bracings from the bottom should be almost twice the distance of second and third half high bracing. By the way that third half bracing called DUGAH bracing and it is very critical for sound of DUGAH string.

Dincer

My dear Dincer, you have not seen the face braced yet. What is pictured is merely the original braces rather casually dropped on the new soundboard before joining, cutting, fitting or anything. The actual assembly was copied very carefully from the original brace locations.

Jonathan - 10-18-2005 at 12:33 PM

Dincer, Onnik is said to have had an older brother named Mgrditch, who was an oudmaker. I have a Mgrditch Karibyan from 1894, and it is very Manol-like. There was a Mgrditch who worked in Manol's shop, although I do not know the last name--I do not know if anybody does. Perhaps this is the link between Manol and Onnik Uner.

oudmaker - 10-18-2005 at 07:31 PM

Jonathan

That could be the connection. Since the last name was Karibyan people thought Onnik was the one worked in Manol's shop. I like to see Mgrdic's oud. Can you put a picture of it to the forum?
Regards
Dincer

Dr. Oud - 10-18-2005 at 08:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan
This wood is some of the most beautiful I have ever seen. The picture doesn't do it justice. Walnut, I think, but just really very rich.

Johnathan,
Perhaps you could start a new thread for Karibyans, etc. This thread is about this restoration project, whoever made the oud. I have a lot more pictures to post and it seems there's plenty of interest, so in the spirit of keeping it more focused, if you would please not divert the subject off track?
Thank you.

Jonathan - 10-18-2005 at 08:58 PM

Sorry, we will just stick with this Hamza restoration.

Faladel - 10-19-2005 at 07:37 AM

Dear spyrosc

Look well what I said (in this label I read:
workship authorized
work of HAMZA OUSTAH
Nomber 1341........Not 1242)
Mr. Dincer translate the label very good..

Thank you
Quote:
Originally posted by spyrosc
Doc,

The number can be either 1341 or 1241 depending on how you interpret one digit, and it is definitely a serial number NOT a date.

Furthermore, it says it is the work of Hamza Usta NOT Manol as Faladel said.

Spyros C.

Dr. Oud - 10-19-2005 at 07:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan
Sorry, we will just stick with this Hamza restoration.

Thank you, Johnathan. I very much appreciate everyone's expert comments and John B. is excited to learn more about this oud. He says he assumed it was a Manol because it had such a similar appearance tohisother Manol. As for the label, he had assumed that Manol built it in someone else's shop, but we now know this was not so. He will now take some photos of the labels in his other "alleged Manol" to positively identify it.

The back was cleaned with a rag dampened with alcohol. The neck joint was reshaped to correct the alignment and a rosewood spacer was fitted at the end of the neck block to replace material lost during the joint rework. A dovetail tongue was fitted in the neck and block. You will notice my oud police badge, authorizing me to arrest anyone abusing an oud!

SamirCanada - 10-19-2005 at 06:00 PM

Hehe then you should cuff me right away after what I have done to mine hehehe Great work Doc. Iam loving it.
Hopefully we'll get to the bottom of the story and find who made this thing.
cheers!.

Misunderstanding

spyrosc - 10-19-2005 at 07:07 PM

Ya Akhi Faladel,

I know you said everything correctly, I was actually agreeing with you, but it was my bad syntax in English. Instead of saying:

"This is not a Manol, JUST as Faladel said"

I said

"This is not a Manol as Faladel said"

making it sound the opposite. One little word and a comma, that's all it takes to make a misunderstanding.

Anyway, sorry about that
Spyros C.

Jonathan - 10-20-2005 at 06:43 AM

Anybody know any details on Hamza Usta? Other than the fact that he trained under Manol. When did he die? I know his uds are highly prized--it would be nice to see other Hamzas if anybody has them (I don't want to bog down your thread Dr. Oud, but it would be nice to see other examples of this guy's work).

Dr. Oud - 10-20-2005 at 07:22 AM

The Turkish encyclopedia says Hamza Efendi 1884-1915, and Manol 1845-1915.

I'd prefer that a new topic be started for other ouds - to keep this one from getting so large that the dial-up people get blocked out. I believe there's a message limit per page, but if there are a lot of pictures the page can take several minutes to load over a dial-up connection. That's the reason I'm only posting one picture a day. I think a Karibyan and/or Hamza topic would be great and of keen interest to many people who may not look in the project forum for those topics.

The paper strips on the rib joints were all dried out and there were about 27 seams and cracks that were either open or misaligned. There also was a 10mm hole right at the left end of the bottom brace. This hole was patched with matching wood overlapping the mating edges at an angle to prevent the patch from being pushed out by the brace. The bottom brace sees a lot of torsion force, so this patch was critical and I spent a day getting it to fit just so. As I worked my way around the back, other seams would pop open from handling the oud. The ribs had probably been sanded down in previous re-finishing jobs to the thickness of a post card! To reinforce the back I decided to line the entire inner surface with parchment paper infused with hide glue. Parchment is made with pure cellulose fiber and gains more strength than plain paper when the glue is absorbed. In addition there are no chemicals in parchment to affect the glue's performance. The paper was cut out in the areas where the braces butt against the ribs. The paper liner was then sealed with shellac. The tail block had been replaced with a thin plywood piece, so a shelf was added to provide a gluing surface for the tail end of the face.

The label was printed in 1975 when I was thin and hairy.

Jameel - 10-20-2005 at 08:26 AM

Doc,

Love the label.

Dr. Oud - 10-21-2005 at 07:07 AM

The face is joined with the usual (?) cleat & clamp method.

Dr. Oud - 10-24-2005 at 07:31 AM

I used my handy dandy Brace Clamper to assemble the brace system. :shrug: Geez, I hope I got them in the right places this time.

Jonathan - 10-24-2005 at 03:31 PM

Doc, do you think you can give us the rough width and heighth of these braces? I am jsut trying to contrast them with the Nahat dimensions you gave in an earlier post on this thread.
Thanks a lot!

Dr. Oud - 10-24-2005 at 04:14 PM

Each brace is different and must be proportioned to the width of the face, so these sizes may not work for your oud. Rough width and height will not make the braces work and I would hate to be blamed for giving out wrong information, so I will be completing and offering a detail specification drawing soon with all the details and dimensions. The Hamza braces are very different fom the Nahat's.

I found this picture of the neck with a stiffener installed before the fingerboard was glued on. The stiffener ws cut down to the inside of the veneer covering the back of the neck.

Dr. Oud - 10-25-2005 at 08:08 AM

The original pegbox was cleaned up, new ebony violin pegs installed and a new scroll added just like the one in the pictures of a Manol. There was a small hole drilled through the peg box, but I left it in case John wants to put a tassel or something on it. Now I'm wondering if Hamza Usta had a different scroll design?

Dr. Oud - 10-26-2005 at 07:21 AM

The completed face was glued on with hide glue using a combination of rubber bands and clamps. The rubber bands are actually strips that are tied scross the back to control the tension. Corner blocks at the edge prevent the bands from pushing the braces below the top edge. Pressure is applied at the teil end with an elevated board above the bridge, clamped at the neck.

Jameel - 10-26-2005 at 08:03 AM

Doc,

Why did you cut the edge rabbet for the corner purfling before you attached the face? This would give access to the braces during glue-up, that's nice. Did you cut back the face before you glued the braces, or after?

Dr. Oud - 10-26-2005 at 08:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jameel...Why did you cut the edge rabbet for the corner purfling before you attached the face? This would give access to the braces during glue-up, that's nice. Did you cut back the face before you glued the braces, or after?

I was wondering how long it would take you to notice that. (like 2 minutes!) I did not cut the rabbet first. What happened was that I had mounted the face as usual, with the face overlapping the top edge, then cut the rabbet and installed the edge band. While I was tuning it up, a seam popped open in the back. As soon as I fixed that one another would fail. I realised that the back had been sanded so thin it had lost it's structural integrity, so I removed the face to apply the parchment liner. What you see here is the second assembly. With the face cut away the braces tend to sink into the body as pressure is applied with the rubber bands, so I inserted some shims under the face next to the brace and pulled the face & brace up flush using another rubber band going around the back. Good eye!

oudmaker - 10-27-2005 at 10:49 AM

My Dear Doctor
Oudmaking and boxmaking is two different thing. Oudmaker never uses any pressure on its oud especially on the top. Even wise Youngs know that!!
Dincer

Dr. Oud - 10-27-2005 at 01:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by oudmaker
My Dear Doctor
Oudmaking and boxmaking is two different thing. Oudmaker never uses any pressure on its oud especially on the top. Even wise Youngs know that!!
Dincer

My Dear Oudmaker - Thank you for your comment. I respect your experience and expertise, however I believe there is more than one way to build an oud or a box. The pressure from the rubber bands and the clamped board is just enough to close the glue joint and no more. The rubber bands are actually strips that are tied around the back with just enough tension to bring the joint together. The clamp is closed very lightly with just enough pressure directly down on the tail block to fully seat the tail end of the face on the block. The body is not distorted or forced by any means. This method is used by many luthiers and avoids damage to the soft wood of the face that can be caused by pulling off masking tape.
The edge band has a rosewood outside corner and 6 laminations of black/white purfling. Using rubber bands again, it was glued into the rabbet cut around the perimeter of the face. The rose was taped inside while mounting the face. This allows access to the inside of the body to align the braces and the edge band and to repair any open cracks or seams that might occur during the mounting process. Fortunately, the parchment liner added enough strength to prevent any more failure in the back. Whew!

Dr. Oud - 10-28-2005 at 03:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Oud...This method is used by many luthiers and avoids damage to the soft wood of the face that can be caused by pulling off masking tape....

To elaborate, recall that the face was mounted once before and had to be removed the reinforce the back. My experience with using tape to secure the soundboard is that it is nearly impossible to avoid pulling some of the soft wood out of the face when removing the tape. OK, so when making a new face I just leave it a little extra thickness around the perimeter and sand it down to the final thickness after the edging is glued in. I had used tape to mount the face the first time and had already sanded this face down to it's final thickness. I didn't want to risk losing any more thickness or leave the little voids of wood that get stuck to the tape, so I decided to use the rubber band method. I have seen many examples of it used to build other music instruments. I knew that if I used rubber bands around the tail end it would pull the tail end of the body forward, so I used the extended clamping board to close the tail end joint. Knowing full well how delicate this oud is, I decided to use rubber bands and clamp very carefully with just enough pressure to close the glue joint.

A Tru-oil varnish finish was applied rather than a traditional French polish because it is so much more durable and it doesn't require all that rubbing. I was concerned that the back might pop open again using the french polish method. I used a wide soft bristle brush from Japan, 1-1/2in wide made from squirrel's hair (some where in Japan there must be a bunch of bald squirrels running around). When brushing on a finish, there's a risk that the varnish will run over the edge onto the face, so I masked the face with waxed paper and taped the neck . The peg holes were plugged with little corks and trimmed flush so I don't have to clean the varnish out and risk changing the fit of the pegs.

Mike - 10-30-2005 at 06:40 AM

Another great thread! Way to go Doc. I love this stuff!

Dr. Oud - 10-31-2005 at 12:10 PM

So here' the final result. A video of John playing it will follow soon.

Jameel - 10-31-2005 at 12:26 PM

Beautiful Doc! Can't wait for the video!

TruePharaoh21 - 10-31-2005 at 12:33 PM

What a difference from when you first received it, Doc! I'm sure that it is as beautiful as it looks. Hope the video comes soon!

TP21

Jonathan - 10-31-2005 at 03:13 PM

Beautiful. Can't wait for the video.

Dr. Oud - 11-2-2005 at 11:31 AM

Here's the video and a picture of another happy customer, one of "The Oud Brothers"

Jonathan - 11-2-2005 at 12:08 PM

The master. Great to have a video of him. Thanks DocO--the oud sounds great.

paulO - 11-2-2005 at 12:30 PM

Yeah man, great sound -- nice work Richard. John's got a great sound too, and it's lovely to hear him un-plugged !! Looking forward to your next project !!

Cheers...PaulO

SamirCanada - 11-2-2005 at 12:44 PM

Well done Dr.
The oud sounds incredibly loud. Iam shure John will enjoy it verry much. And of course he'll make the best of the oud Iam shure.

Jameel - 11-2-2005 at 01:01 PM

Awesome, Doc. The oud sounds great! John B. was the first oudist I came across when I started looking them up years ago on the net. It was a short video of him playing a Beatles' tune.

Dr. Oud - 11-2-2005 at 04:48 PM

Thanks to everyone for your kind comments and support. This restoration was my greatest challenge (so far) and nearly didn't make it, but now it's a magic oud - one that you just can't put down and suddenly you can play like never before...and loud? It's the loudest I've ever played at any size. John will not be peforming with it to avoid risking any transit damage since it's still very fragile. This big lesson with this project is, (dare I repeat myself?) - It's the braces! If you're fixing up an old oud, be sure to restore those braces and use them again on a new soundboard.

Peyman - 11-2-2005 at 05:23 PM

That was a cool video Doc o, but where is the santoor? I was hoping for a jam...

Wow

LeeVaris - 11-2-2005 at 07:22 PM

Ok... Doc, we have to talk... awsome. Now if only you can guarantee that I will sound like John if I get one of your ouds...;)

Dr. Oud - 11-3-2005 at 08:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by LeeVaris
Ok... Doc, we have to talk... awsome. Now if only you can guarantee that I will sound like John if I get one of your ouds...;)

All righty, if you bring me another 100 year old Hamza Usta, I'll make that guarantee. If I make a new one, you might have to wait 100 years to get that kind of sound..and if you can play like John...I can't.:shrug:

LeeVaris - 11-3-2005 at 07:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Oud
All righty, if you bring me another 100 year old Hamza Usta, I'll make that guarantee. If I make a new one, you might have to wait 100 years to get that kind of sound..and if you can play like John...I can't.:shrug:


In 100 years I might be able to play like John... but it'll probably be in the next life. :airguitar:

Mike - 11-5-2005 at 10:02 AM

That was a great video Doc. Enjoyed it a lot. The oud turned out fantastic. Thanks again for sharing this project with us all. A very very nice thread indeed.

Be well,
Mike

Jonathan - 11-24-2005 at 07:32 AM

Any thoughts, Doc, on whether lining the entire surface of the oud bowl with the parchment paper infused with glue had a significant effect on the sound of the oud?
It sounds fantastic, of course.
It would seem that the reflective surface of the bowl would have some effect on its sound.
I have wondered in the past if coating the inside of an oud bowl with some hard, reflective material would make the sound brighter, louder.

Dr. Oud - 11-24-2005 at 09:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan
Any thoughts, Doc, on whether lining the entire surface of the oud bowl with the parchment paper infused with glue had a significant effect on the sound of the oud?
It sounds fantastic, of course.
It would seem that the reflective surface of the bowl would have some effect on its sound.
I have wondered in the past if coating the inside of an oud bowl with some hard, reflective material would make the sound brighter, louder.

It's my opinion that the surface would have a negligable affect on the sound. Many great old ouds are rather rough inside. I am convinced that two factors made this oud sound so good. First is the form and location of the braces and sound holes. The second factor is the original braces were re-installed on the new face. Third, I was very fortunate (lucky). Oops that's three - well, I not a mathematician after all.

Jonathan - 11-25-2005 at 04:38 AM

Is there a source for old spruce? I keep hearing stories of how the old masters used to keep their spruce for decades, and, in some cases, only installed faces from spruce that approached 100 years old--using spruce acquired from their masters, and in turn, acquiring wood for future generations. I don't know how much truth there is to any of that, but I do wonder if there is a source for old spruce for braces, and the top (other than ripping apart old instruments or furniture).

Dr. Oud - 11-25-2005 at 06:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan
Is there a source for old spruce? I keep hearing stories of how the old masters used to keep their spruce for decades, and, in some cases, only installed faces from spruce that approached 100 years old--using spruce acquired from their masters, and in turn, acquiring wood for future generations. I don't know how much truth there is to any of that, but I do wonder if there is a source for old spruce for braces, and the top (other than ripping apart old instruments or furniture).

There are occaisionally some aged soundboards for sale by some dealers, ( I once found a 50 year old set selling for $250, but the owner declined to send a picture so I passed) but old material is usually traded among luthiers. I recently bought some aged spruce from the Lundberg daughters (after Robert passed away). I also have some face sets I have saved for about 35 years, but these are reserved for my personal restoration projects and not for sale. The Lundberg spruce is reserved for clients (a t extra cost, of course.) I have made an oud (The lemon/koa Turkish size) from 5 pieces from a back brace of an old piano. You just have to search for wood wherever you can find it. The Guild of American Luthiers is a resource (for it's members) and aged wood of sometmes sold at the conferences and echibitions. Other guilds and/or organizations may also be a resource.

Jonathan - 11-25-2005 at 07:56 AM

Thanks, Doc.

Peyman - 11-25-2005 at 11:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan
It would seem that the reflective surface of the bowl would have some effect on its sound.
I have wondered in the past if coating the inside of an oud bowl with some hard, reflective material would make the sound brighter, louder.


Isn't this the principle behind the turkish cumbus with aluminum cast bodies?

SamirCanada - 11-25-2005 at 12:17 PM

the cumbus uses a skin to vibrate. Much like a banjo or a even a Kanun. The scale is the only thing that is similar to a oud. The principle behind the cumbus is that it was developed to be affordable for poor musicians and latter musicians that wanted a loud oud to play wedings and outdoors without being amplified.
Now if the reflective body has something to do with the loud sound I dont know but I think its mostly from the high tension against the skin.

Dr. Oud - 11-25-2005 at 06:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SamirCanada
the cumbus uses a skin to vibrate. Much like a banjo or a even a Kanun. The scale is the only thing that is similar to a oud. The principle behind the cumbus is that it was developed to be affordable for poor musicians and latter musicians that wanted a loud oud to play wedings and outdoors without being amplified.
Now if the reflective body has something to do with the loud sound I dont know but I think its mostly from the high tension against the skin.

The cumbus is a chordaphone and classified as a lute. On the other hand it has a vibrating membrane, so it is also a membranophone, like a drum. The skin has no braces to create nodes like the wooden soundboard of the oud. The oud is also a chordaphone, the family of stringed instruments which includes membranophones with strings, so the cumbus and the oud are both classified as lutes.

I believe that the cumbus' aluminum body is spun, and does contribute to the volume because it is a homogenous material and therefore acts like a bell. The oud, on the other hand is made of many pieces, glued together, so the body cannot resonate like a bell. It is therfore just a chamber, and the only factor contributing to the sound is the volume or size of the bowel. The sound you hear when you thump the oud bowel id the air vibrating, but the wooden parts are dampened out by the many glue joints.

I thought the cumbus could also be used to cook your horesh after a hard day of playing music for the folk. It is also a formidable weapon in a brawl, unlike the oud which must be removed from the altercation with haste.

Hey Elie, thanks for the science lesson, it seems the theroretical side of my brain sustained more damage than the other side, whatever that does. I am humbled by your expansive knowledge.:bowdown:

Peyman - 11-25-2005 at 07:00 PM

I have two cumbus' (one is the oud style, one is the huge 51" tanbur). They are both very loud. I think the bell idea makes pefect sense. There are wooden back cumbus' too but I have never played any.
The first thing my father asked when he saw the cumbus was if he could cook rice in it. :mad:

Elie Riachi - 11-25-2005 at 09:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Oud

Hey Elie, thanks for the science lesson, it seems the theroretical side of my brain sustained more damage than the other side, whatever that does. I am humbled by your expansive knowledge.:bowdown:


I am humbled friend. Let us not forget the greatest contribution of all, your oud making handbook, very rare and so far and to the best of my knowledge is unparalleled by any in the world... even in the M.E. the home of the oud (correct me if I am wrong folks.)