Mike's Oud Forums

Horn rishas/mizraps

samzayed - 1-9-2004 at 07:04 PM

Anyone have any idea what kind of oil I should soak horn rishas for, and how long? I have heard some say olive oil, and others say don't use olive oil, use a lighter oil, etc.

By the way, if you are looking for a source of horn rishas, contact Yehia at nileshop@menanet.net.

spyrosc - 1-9-2004 at 09:45 PM

Dear friend,

Horn rishas can be rubbed with lotion periodically just like you do to your hands, to keep them from going dry. I don't think you need to soak them in oil. Feather rishas used to be soaked in olive oil in the old days.

I think Ronny had some advice on the subject on another thread.

Salamat
Spyros C.

samzayed - 1-10-2004 at 01:02 AM

This batch of horn strips are very shiny, and have an almost plastic feel to them. However, they seem to be still brittle, and I have been breaking the tips after a few minutes of intense tremelo.

I think they need some sort of treatement. I did soak my last batch with olive oil for a couple of weeks, it seemed to make them softer, and less brittle. This new batch are a better quality, they are more consistent in thickness down the length, but they still break.

nadir - 1-16-2004 at 02:12 PM

could it just be that the horn that you have received is low quality? because i find it amazing that HORN would chip after just some intense playing.

Horn rishas breaking

spyrosc - 1-16-2004 at 08:41 PM

I believe that the problem is how the horn risha was cut from the original bone material. Bone has 'grain' too. If they cut the risha 'with the grain' it lasts longer but if they cut it 'across the grain' it breaks easily.

Spyros C.

Ronny Andersson - 1-17-2004 at 06:01 AM

It's not necessary to store horn plectra for 6 months in olive oil. This method is only for the Iraqi eagle quill plectra there olive oil is used to strengthen the plectrum (few knowes why). Olive oil is the traditional oil for both quill and horn plectra and for horn is enough with couple of weeks. Is impossible to make a good plectrum if you cut against the grain.

samzayed - 1-17-2004 at 04:41 PM

Ronny,

In a previous thread, there was a discussion regarding the type horns neccesary to make a good horn plectra. I got a new batch of strips from Egypt, and I doubt they are the kind of horn you reccomend. They look and feel different than the ones I got from you. Can you tell me anything about them from the picture? Thanks,

zeyad - 1-17-2004 at 08:02 PM

ohhhh.. man. I have one of these. They are, i am sorry to say that, cheap stuff. I do not like them.

Zeyad.

Zulkarnain - 1-24-2004 at 08:16 AM

Hi

I've seen that kind of horn risha too-one of my student use them. He bought it very cheap in Cairo. To be honest it is a cheap version-I prefer the one I got from Ronny Andersson.. feel better too!

Regards

nadir - 1-24-2004 at 11:22 AM

does anyone here know where i can get good quality horn rishas??

Zulkarnain - 1-24-2004 at 05:25 PM

Hi

Please contact Ronny Andersson (check his website iraqi-oud.com) He can send you a very god quality horn risha!

Regards

Ronny Andersson - 1-25-2004 at 12:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by samzayed
Ronny,

In a previous thread, there was a discussion regarding the type horns neccesary to make a good horn plectra. I got a new batch of strips from Egypt, and I doubt they are the kind of horn you reccomend. They look and feel different than the ones I got from you. Can you tell me anything about them from the picture? Thanks,


Sam, the Egyptian made plectra are made for me off an unknown animal horns (probably goat). The large horn of water buffalo or any larger cow breed doesn't produce a similar horn quality as the goat or massive horns. The cow horn texture is more flexible and can be made of various thickness and flexibility. Cows for milk producing have if they are now allowed to keep their poor horns, a quality that is much inferior ¨real¨l arge horns.

Ronny Andersson - 1-25-2004 at 01:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zulkarnain
Hi

Please contact Ronny Andersson (check his website iraqi-oud.com) He can send you a very god quality horn risha!

Regards



Yes that's correct. Unfortunately I have little time nowdays for quick delivery but order is possible. I have recieved mails from some interested in my plectra and my answers are comming!!!

TruePharaoh21 - 1-25-2004 at 11:48 PM

I'm quite inexperienced with the various types of rishas, and I have only held a horn risha once (I have one in the cabinet right next to me, but it seems as though if I play it, it will break right in half). Can anyone tell me what the sound differences will be produced if you play with the horn instead? How about quills and such? If anyone out there has these kinds, maybe they can post a clip where half of the clip is played with a plastic risha and the other half with horn so that we can hear the differences.

I'd appreciate this very much!

TP21

P.S. I love the fact that we have so many knowledgable people here on the forum. Ronny, not to single you out or anything, but you are an amazing asset that we have here. Thanks for all the info you have supplied us with, and I look forward for more in the future.

Zulkarnain - 1-26-2004 at 12:14 AM

Ronny! Ronny! Ronny!
Ronny! Ronny! Ronny!
Ronny! Ronny! Ronny!
Ronny! Ronny! Ronny!
Ronny! Ronny! Ronny!
Ronny! Ronny! Ronny!
Ronny! Ronny! Ronny!
Ronny! Ronny! Ronny!


:applause::applause::applause:

nadir - 1-28-2004 at 01:08 AM

hey TP i asked my teacher about the various types of rishas and he said that in general a quill risha is better to have than a horn risha:

1.) the quill does not chip like the horn.
2.) the horn could damage the strings if you get the wrong one.
3.) the sound is better with a quill risha, the horn makes sound a little higher than the string would normally do.

however...

1.) horn rishas produce a CLEARER sound.
2.) quill rishas need to be treated more properly than horn rishas, the quills could be delicate while horns are already hard.
3.) horn rishas are easier to manage, locate & acquire, and have (i.e. not as many laws against horn) than quills.

hope this helps you out! :bowdown:

- nadir

btw, i also do agree that it is so great that we have knowledgeable people about the oud here!

TruePharaoh21 - 1-28-2004 at 08:32 AM

So how is the quill risha to be treated? I mean, how do we maintain it so that it continues to function as it did the way we got it?

TP21

Ronny Andersson - 1-28-2004 at 09:18 AM

>I'm quite inexperienced with the various types of rishas, and I have only held a horn risha once (I >have one in the cabinet right next to me, but it seems as though if I play it, it will break right in >half). Can anyone tell me what the sound differences will be produced if you play with the horn >instead? How about quills and such? If anyone out there has these kinds, maybe they can post a >clip where half of the clip is played with a plastic risha and the other half with horn so that we can >hear the differences.

Is possible to make a horn risha that is very identical an eagle quill. I used such plectra myself when I had problem to find eagle quills. Horn is an excellent material when it comes of various densities and texture; we have the possibility to obtain plectra that suits different playing styles. Normally is the horn plectra much wider than the extreme slim eagle risha, but my experiment confirms that with a certain horn quality it’s possible to copy the special features of the eagle risha. Is impossible to hear any differences between an eagle risha and horn risha if it’s made by me. I disagree with several of the statements by Nadir, but we all have different experiences!
To play with eagle quill find most oud players much more difficult than any other risha.
The Iraqi method of making a risha is different the Turkish method. Many have heard that is necessary to store the quill in olive oil; this is not fiction but very true and this differ the Iraqi tradition from the Turkish one. It takes 6 month for the olive oil to penetrate and make the part inside the ¨ inferior umbilicus and rachis¨ hard. When one makes risha of eagle quill is it the ¨rachis¨part one shall use and not the lower ¨umbilicus¨ part. An eagle risha of the Iraqi method have very well resistant to wear, even on Bashir ouds with high string tension.

nadir - 1-29-2004 at 12:16 AM

thanks ronny, its good to see things from another perspective! i wonder though, does it matter what type of olive oil you use?? because there are hundreds of different types of olive oils...

Ronny Andersson - 2-4-2004 at 04:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by nadir
thanks ronny, its good to see things from another perspective! i wonder though, does it matter what type of olive oil you use?? because there are hundreds of different types of olive oils...


Ordinary virgin oil will do. The one I uses is almost impossible to get if you don't know a producer. I have tried virgin oil and is working fine.

nadir - 2-5-2004 at 01:08 PM

do you think that a different oil would affect the risha differently though? (i.e. would there be different effects if i used an olive oil other than virgin??)

Ronny Andersson - 2-6-2004 at 08:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by nadir
do you think that a different oil would affect the risha differently though? (i.e. would there be different effects if i used an olive oil other than virgin??)


The only thing would be that the oil doesn't make the risha stiff-hard.

nadir - 2-6-2004 at 02:04 PM

thanks ronny. may you always be able to rock!! :buttrock:

Rishas

wfspark - 3-26-2004 at 08:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by nadir
thanks ronny. may you always be able to rock!! :buttrock:
Am I braking the rules by using guitar picks instead of rishas? Thanks.

William F. Sparks

nadir - 3-26-2004 at 09:05 AM

I personally don't think so... but you can play faster with an oud pick for some reason... :shrug:

olive oil

billkilpatrick - 3-28-2004 at 06:33 AM

ronnie wrote: "Ordinary virgin oil will do. The one I uses is almost impossible to get if you don't know a producer. I have tried virgin oil and is working fine."


...i should hope so!

still waiting for the first risha making lesson.

ciao - bill

Ronny Andersson - 3-28-2004 at 11:35 AM

Quote:
Billy wrote:
still waiting for the first risha making lesson.

ciao - bill


It is comming.

billkilpatrick - 5-12-2004 at 02:09 AM

in a similar thread on the mandolincafe site there's an article translated by a nice man named victor which explains how to make a plectrum from the quill of a predatory bird, usually vulture, eagle, or hawk. the article goes on to say that vulture quill is to be preferred above the others and that there are two types of plectrum to be made from this materal - one dark in color and durable, the other white and more subtile.

i woke up this morning thinking about something i read in the article:

"The plectrum built from the white side of the quill is considered superior because it is softer, more flexible, and therefore gives the sweetest sound...
...In olden times, lutenists would use the white pick when they performed for a small audience of few, sensitive revellers, while using the black one for hard, loud playing for hours at village feasts."

in relation to electrified ouds and how to get more volume out of your instrument, i think, on the whole, i'd prefer to play my oud for a few "sensitive revellers" than a bunch of drunks too long at the fair.

- bill

chuckerbutty - 5-12-2004 at 03:25 AM

Hi Bill

There was a very interesting article in the latest Lute Society magazine about the use of various plectra in medieval European lute playing - among the materials mentioned are cowbone and ostrich quill. Unfortunately I seem to have gone and put the blessed thing in such a safe place that I can't find it now, but when I do, I can give you a quick summary of the article if you wish.

horn risha

billkilpatrick - 5-19-2004 at 09:44 AM

you've probably all moved on to other concerns but i'm still in search of the ideal pick.

i've made a couple risha from the cow's horn i got from ronnie and learned a few things in the process...at least i think i've learned a few things.

- the horn is formed from layers of keratose substance which in cross section appears to have different density.

- the inside of the horn seems softer than the outer layer and the outer layer has the consistency a bit like enamel. when polished it has a semi-transparent surface.

- following instructions, i sawed-off a 15cm. (approx) "ring" section of the horn across the grain, then split the ring along the grain of the horn. i used a saw to do this but a small hatchet or matchete would have probably been better suited.

- i then removed a 1.5 + strip of the horn with the saw and began smoothing it down; first with a rasp, then with a file and then finishing it off (after rounding off the two ends) with various grades of sandpaper.

- i worked from the inner (soft) section of the horn towards the hard outer surface.

- i've placed several of the risha in olive oil. it's early days yet (the first i made has been in the bath for less than 2 weeks) but i've noticed that they've all become more ridgid in the process.

...now this is interesting. before entering "risha-ville", i used a variety of plastic and nylon risha - the most successful of which is a very thin (.38mm), "jim dunlop" guitar pick and i developed a technique with my right hand, adapted to the use of this soft, supple pick. with these stiffer and longer horn risha, however, i've noticed that i have to loosen up my wrist considerably and leave a 3-4cm section of risha in front of my thumb and forefinger in order to obtain a decent tremolo. i've also shifted the angle of strumming from 90°- ish to about 45° - ish.

i know this sounds stupid and i don't really mean it literally, but it's a bit like playing an oud with a very pliant knitting needle.

my playing sounds different; i don't know if it's for the better or not but, oddly enough, my accuracy in hitting the complimentary bass strings has improved enormously.

they're very satisfying to make - lovely and smooth - and if i end up reverting back to my plastic risha i can always sell them as hand made collar stays to 70's survivalists, ted nugent-wanna'be, shirt enthusiasts.

- bill

chuckerbutty - 5-19-2004 at 01:01 PM

Hi Bill

I've finally found that article, entitled Playing the Lute of Medieval Europe, Part I, by Joseph A. Baldassarre in the Lute News of April 2004. This is a resume of what it says about plectra and right-hand technique:

-----------

- The types of plectra and hand positions change between the 9th century and 15th century. The earlier plectra are large and the hand is below the strings; by the 15th century the plectra are smaller and the right hand is over the strings.

- There are three right hand plucking techniques.

- The first technique uses a large plectrum (a horn shard) passing through the palm. The primary stroke is a downwards rest stroke.

- The second technique: 12th to 14th century iconography shows the hand below the strings but using large quills (eagle, hawk, goose, swan and heron) with the barbs removed. The shaft rests on top of the index knuckle, and the primary stroke is a down reststroke and an up freestroke. This appears cumbersome and also produces seemingly arbitrary accents that run contrary to conceptions of later European music, but is idiomatic for the medieval lute.

- The third technique is common in 15th century iconography. The hand is over the strings and a small plectrum (barbless ostrich feather) passes between the index and middle finger. The stroke for this technique is called fan-picking - the plectrum passes through the string by slightly rotating the wrist [i.e all free strokes].

Other types of plectra and techniques are shown in the iconography, but these three are the most common.

------------

Hope this helps.