Saw this oud with Armenian writing and I could be wrong but I believe the maker's name is shown on the label in the bolder type as Onnik Kari.....
Whoever wins it, it will be worth the investment. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=002&item=1...Jameel - 7-4-2006 at 05:20 AM
Look like Al Gardner is winning this one. It will go to a good home. (and have plenty of friends to hang out with!Amos - 7-4-2006 at 05:41 AM
that is an amazing find...i am sure that if al gets it he will be sending it to mr. kyvelos for some oud-rehab and the result will be beautiful!
amosDJdog - 7-4-2006 at 05:54 AM
I'm currently high bidder, and if I win it, it will go straight to Peter Kyvelos. I will be sure it is played professionally and very frequently!Andy - 7-4-2006 at 06:23 AM
If it is what I think it is, it hopefully will sound great. But some advice. In my estimation many a great stringed instruments have lost their value
and sound because the original soundboard had been replaced thereby changing the sound and the originality of the instrument. If nothing else I would
request that the original scapped top be returned with the return of the repaired oud. I bought what I believe to be a rare old Turkish oud on ebay
about 2 years ago with stains, dings, cracks, and some soundboard separation from the body but I repaired the cracks and separations. It may not be
the most beautiful oud to others but I have an original with a sound that is one of the best sounding ouds I have ever heard in my 45 oud years.DJdog - 7-4-2006 at 06:43 AM
Excellent advice. Whoever ends up with the oud should consider what you have said very seriouslyDT - 7-4-2006 at 07:17 AM
Hello everyone, I didn't realize there was a thriving Oud forum out there. I own the Oud in question. I'm unable to add to the description as there's
less than 12 hrs. on the auction. See my next post for a picture of the label.Andy - 7-4-2006 at 08:23 AM
Thank you DT, very helpfull with the addtional pictures. I do not read Armenian script but I do recognize some of the letters and I read in bold type
ONNIK or ONNIG depending on Eastern or Western Armenian and the next letters are GARIPYAN OR KARIBYAN again depending on Eastern or Western Armenian.
What someone can shed some light on is that there are only 10 strings why not 11 and why the beak is not tradtional with a scroll. Have I missed
something? Is there anyone that can read the other smaller Armenian script? The rest of the oud is Turkish style. DINCER we need some of your help
here with your great knowlege. Also is the script at the top in Arabic ( I assume )?Andy - 7-4-2006 at 08:26 AM
OH, forgot to ask, does anyone see a date on the label?Jonathan - 7-4-2006 at 12:28 PM
Andy--do you have any idea what the smaller script says?
My Armenian is pretty bad.
First line: G. Bolis E??iljil?? Karoosi Koo?a?ji Then indecipherable word.
Can you make out any of it? I really can't read Armenian either--I just recognize some letters. Amot
So, other than Bolis, I recognize nothing. But, I am sure that there is some Armenian out there that can read this. I just wish it was a little
clearer.
Could be the scroll on top (or the whole pegbox) was replaced? I think the bridge is probably new, because it looks like the bridge was made for 6
courses rather than 5.
Sure looks promising. I hope whoever wins it takes your advice and leaves it as original as possible. In fact, I think I would even consider
patching that spruce (it looks like it is missing a bit around one of the small eyuns) rather than replacing it. Just a thought.DT - 7-4-2006 at 01:17 PM
Better pic... Jonathan - 7-4-2006 at 01:26 PM
Yeah, that's a lot better.
Now, if only I knew the language.
G. Bolis (Istanbul) ??? Kapoosi Kooshapji Han Tiv 4
So, does anybody know what that means? It looks like it is from Istanbul. Does the Kapoosi refer to the Kum Kapi district of Istanbul?
Han Tiv 4 I guess is the street address.??
I wish I knew what that word was after Bolis.MrOud - 7-4-2006 at 02:24 PM
It reads:
Onnig Karibyan
Bolis Eurivciler Kapusi Kusakci Han Tiv 4
Bolis = Istanbul
Eurivciler Kapusi = Name of a passage (possibly one of the doors of the Grand Bazaar - this is a total guess)
Kusakci Han = Name of a building where there are many businesses
Tiv 4 = Number 4
Regards,
Udi MikeAndy - 7-4-2006 at 02:27 PM
Jonathan with my very basic very limited Armenian and just the few Turkish words I think you have helped crack the code. I think Han Tive 4 translates
to house number 4. I decoded Bolis Eori????? and Kapushi Kooshapji Armenians use to use Armenian script for Turkish words. By the way I have a music
book writen in Armenian but the words are Turkish.
Thank you DT, eventhough I will not bid on it I am sure it has already gone beyond your wildest bidding expectations and you have done this site a
service by allowing us to view the inside. http://www.geocities.com/antronig/oud.htmlJonathan - 7-4-2006 at 03:04 PM
There were a lot of Armenian craftsmen in Kum Kapi, although I did not know there were oud makers there. There were some incredible weavers (Shishman
Hagop, others).
I wish I knew more about this one.Jonathan - 7-4-2006 at 03:11 PM
Does anybody know what the Arabic/Ottoman script means?
The oud must be from before the changeover to latin script in Turkey. I wish there was a date.Greg - 7-4-2006 at 03:17 PM
US $3,602.52
Not bad for an unknown "Egyptian" oud
Regards,
GregAndy - 7-4-2006 at 03:22 PM
Jonathan, my intuition gseh toon es vor shyets????????DJdog - 7-4-2006 at 05:09 PM
Was the buyer a member of this forum? I dropped out when I began to feel that not all of the instrument was original with Onnik Garibyan. The pegbox
is not typical, and the joining of the neck to the body shows work that is too obvious to be original with the very elegant and pristine work
characteristic of the master. I wish the buyer, however, the best of luck in finding a great treasure.Jonathan - 7-4-2006 at 05:33 PM
I think DJ that you are right. I would bet that the peg box is not original. But, why only 10 holes on the peg box?
And, I think that the bridge is not original (no big deal).
Still I am curious what the Arabic says.
When did Ataturk switch Turkey over to the latin appearing script? I know it was in the 1920s sometime. Maybe we should make a new topic for this so
that people that can read the Arabic will take a look.SamirCanada - 7-4-2006 at 07:08 PM
The Arabic reads.
Onnik Karibyan Maker.
The rest of the information is the same as the one in armenian about the Qoshaqji, building number 4 etc...
The interesting thing is that at the bottom... the arabic says number :_______
like there is a line to write the oud number and there isnt anything writen. Also there isnt a date to be found.Jonathan - 7-4-2006 at 07:11 PM
Thanks, Samir.
I looked it up--Turkey switched over to the Latin style alphabet in 1928. So, I am guessing that the oud has to be 1928 or earlier.Andy - 7-5-2006 at 09:16 AM
HMMM, just wild thinking, could it be #1, the 1st one, numero uno oud????? Is there any known history of Karibyan. Maybe these parts that are believed
to be replaced maybe original. I am sure when you get it, if it is you, you can send off to Peter, just assuming, and you can get a better insight as
to what you want and need to know.Jonathan - 7-5-2006 at 01:34 PM
Why do you think there is the possiblity of it being #1 Andy? I am curious.
My knowledge on this stuff is weak. I have been told of two very very early ouds by Onnik Karibyan, one dated 1915, and one dated 1910. I have seen
neither, although the source that told me about the 1910 is very very reliable, and has invited me to see it.
It is so hard to believe, since he died in the late 1970s--he must have been just a kid. Or, there was another Onnik Karibyan (and we Armenians
recycle our names from generation to generation, so it is possible).
I wish I knew more. I have no idea why this one is not dated. I think we can assume, just because of the Turkish script, that it is 1928 or earlier.
It may be a matter of using his workshop address to find out what possible dates the oud was made.
I am just guessing that the peg box is a replacement. It just does not "fit" stylistically with his work. And why 10 holes? Has anybody every seen
a Karibyan with 10 pegs? Supposedly, he learned his craft from his older brother Mgrditch (I only know of one Mgrditch Karibyan oud out there), and
possibly Manol (there are some doubts on that). I don't know that either made an oud for just 10 strings. Possible, I just don't know. So, it seems
odd that the student would break from the pattern set by his master.
Again, I feel that I have to preface this by saying that I don't know a lot about oud history.
And why the cap, as you pointed out, instead of the classic Turkish scroll on top of the pegbox? My gut feeling is that it is a replacement (as is
the fingerboard).
I am dying to find out more information on Karibyan. If anybody can fill me in, please do so.
Speaking of Manol--there was a man named Onnik in Manol's workshop. I don't know of his last name, and I don't know of anybody that does. There is
also, supposedly, a Manol with the name "Onnik" written on the label. I don't know how authentic that is, or if it means what I would like for it to
mean. Again, its another oud that I have never seen, just heard of.
So, if anybody can fill me in on some details of Karibyan's life, I would be very very grateful.
I have said it before, but it is incredible to me that we don't know more about those masters that built this instrument. We can read volumes on
Stradivari, but are lucky to find a few paragraphs on Manol, or a few sentences on Karibyan. The same, I am sure, holds true for the Arab masters.
One last thought--perhaps there is a date somewhere inside the instrument, but not on the label? On the tailblock, perhaps? Just a thought
(hope).
I am going to call up Kyvelos one of these days and see if he has any thoughts. He knows a lot about Karibyan ouds (and an incredible amount about
Manols).
I know that there are others out there (including people on this forum), that know a lot about Karibyan and might be able to shed some light on
this.
ThanksDJdog - 7-5-2006 at 01:39 PM
Have you checked any of this out with John Bilezikjian? I think he visited Karibyan at one time, and his knowledge of ouds is pretty encyclopedic.Jonathan - 7-5-2006 at 01:45 PM
Not yet, but I am going to. I don't know of anybody that knows more about Karibyan than Bilezikjian.DJdog - 7-5-2006 at 01:49 PM
Give him my regards, OK? (Steve Bayne)Andy - 7-5-2006 at 04:06 PM
Jonathan, I only mentioned that maybe it could be #1 oud because there is no date which may be the mind of a novice Onnik builder during that time.
Please keep me posted as what you find out from Bilizikjian. BTW, I know of a few Onniks that had their soundboards replaced never to sound the same.
I seem to recall Karibyan ouds built with the oval pick guard such as this one but I also recall them being called Onnik ouds, early 1960's. This an
extremely interesting mystery.Jonathan - 7-5-2006 at 04:53 PM
I also saw one on an Onnik oud from 1975.
Thanks, Andy.Jonathan - 7-13-2006 at 05:37 PM
Andy, you might be closer to the truth than you thought.
That oud has a bridge that appears original, with 11 holes. BUT. . . it has a single treble string hole! Super early, I think. I know that many
Manols had the single treble string, because the gut treble string was so difficult to tune and unreliable. I think most other ouds of that time
period did, as well, although in the ensuing years they have been converted over by more modern players.
The peg box is junk--a later replacement. 10 holes.
So two questions for anybody that can answer.
1. When did oud makers stop making the oud for a single treble string, versus the double course?
2. On that label, does anybody know what that little bit of Arabic script says below the Armenian?
Thankschaldo - 7-13-2006 at 05:59 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan
2. On that label, does anybody know what that little bit of Arabic script says below the Armenian?
Thanks
it says number ..............Jonathan - 7-13-2006 at 06:20 PM
Thanks, Chaldo.
This is a mystery. I know in that Karibyan oud of Tasos Theordorakis that I posted pictures of, it is dated 1924. So, my gut feeling is that this
one is earlier, but I don't have anything to back that up. It just seems that once a maker got in the habit of dating his ouds, he would continue to
do that. But, of course, I could be wrong.
The Armenian line ends with Tiv 4, which means Number 4.
It could be referring to his address, of course. Or, oud number 4? I kind of doubt it, because it looks like the 4 is printed there, and not hand
written.
Does the Arabic suggest that the 4 is part of the address?
Thanks a lot! I really appreciate your help.
It says the samething as the Armenian. It seems like Mr. Oud is right.
This is what I could read of the Turkish script :
line 1: oonik Gharbiyaneh e'maalati (oonik karibyan imalati)
line 2: dar (big crack in the paper) Saadat oorijil- (orijiler, there is a shadow) -si Ghooshaghji khan noomro 4.
It's the adress as mentioned before.
At the bottom is says "numro," "number" and there are dashes, looks like they forgot to put a number there.Jonathan - 7-14-2006 at 07:14 AM
Thanks, Peyman. I guess the way to date it might be by the address, if he changed locations from time to time.
I appreciate the help.Andy - 7-15-2006 at 09:59 AM
Jonathan, read Saffet's reply to me on the OUD HOME PAGE about the Karibyan.
