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UD METODU TRANSLATION

Ashley - 5-27-2007 at 03:23 AM

Hi everyone...

I once heard that a translated version of Mutlu Toran's UD METODU would be availiable in English and Greek..
I was wondering if anybody had heard any news of this as I have searched and searched yet found nothing!!...

Failing this I was considering doing a bit of research into the cost of getting it translated and published in English but as I am sure this would be rather expensive and time consuming I will wait and see if any news comes out of the wonderfull forum

If we cant find any news between us then i might set up the Ashley's Ud Metodu translation consortium, which would either involve some kind of trust fund..or around 50 people and a ton of turkish to English dictionaries..

Ashley - 5-28-2007 at 09:18 AM

hmmmmm....ok guys....

so nobody knows anything about the supposed translation? :rolleyes:

how about we try to find someone that could translate it?..

any thoughts?

arsene - 5-28-2007 at 11:34 AM

Well, we could learn Turkish...

But seriously, I've been looking for a translation of that book too. But I can offer you this:How To Play Ud (eBay)

Jason - 5-28-2007 at 12:45 PM

I remember the site that mentioned a translation was being worked on. I can't recall who's site it was on though. Needless to say that was probably a year or longer when I first saw the site and it hasn't been updated since.

I like the idea of us translating the book as a community. We would need a pdf file of the book to begin with though, and as far as I know that doesn't exist. I think there is software that could convert the pdf image into text, which we could put into the translator dictionary. We would just have to clean up any mistakes the dictionary made.

I think the problem with this idea will be getting a pdf file of the entire book. I don't think you could post such a thing here. Maybe zeryab would allow it I don't know.

arsene - 5-28-2007 at 01:01 PM

If a pdf would be available, I would gladly host it on a secure page on my website and post the link here...

adamgood - 5-28-2007 at 01:04 PM

Someone here maybe knows Motlu Torun? I'm sure he would love an English translation.

I can think of one person who would be absolutely ideal to do a translation but it would probably cost some money, if enough of us were willing to sponsor that it could be done.

How many people here would be willing to do that?

Adam

arsene - 5-28-2007 at 01:17 PM

Hm depending on the cost, I probably would. I've heard some marvellous things about Torun's method...

Come to think of it, Adam, if you say you know someone who can accurately translate that wonderful book, I think it's well worth paying a little... we could do the oud playing world an enormous favour... almost like finding the secret to alchemy!

neyzen - 5-29-2007 at 01:24 AM

hi guys,

I'd be happy to translate parts of the book and upload as a word document in the same layout but without pictures/notes, etc. (for free)
Which chapter/section would you guys prefer the most?

cheers,
murat

Ashley - 5-29-2007 at 03:14 AM

Hi guys

Well this is all sounding great!

As far as the pdf goes (infact as far as any full translation goes) I think we would need to check out the copyright and liscencing issues involved. perhaps we could contact the publishers or Mr Toran himself.

As far as paying goes I would be willing to pay also but we would have to set up some kind of secure Mike Ouds forum account (perhaps paypal ?)

Murat your offer of translation is really nice but I am worried that different people will want wildly different sections and you may create a load of work for yourself.

I think we should try and check on the progress of any current translation..(the legend has it that a Greek Preist is currently translating Ud Metodu into Greek and English) I think the guy who might know is Nikos Dimitriados..he has a web site..(i think under the same name) so lets mass mail him to find out! :buttrock:

If it turns out that nothing is actually going on then lets have a vote as to what method seems best, partial "need to know" translations a full translation by a professional or a communal translation from the forum.

Whatever happens i think that a Full translation is long overdue and would be a great benefit to all of us non turkish speaking oud players...

Speak soon

Ash

adamgood - 5-29-2007 at 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashley
As far as the pdf goes (infact as far as any full translation goes) I think we would need to check out the copyright and liscencing issues involved. perhaps we could contact the publishers or Mr Toran himself.

I do think this would be the obvious first step, to contact the author.

oh man this would be really great!

arsene - 5-29-2007 at 05:57 AM

It would be great indeed. And may I just say, Ashley, Ireally love your enthousiasm and determination! Yeah! :airguitar:

Ashley - 5-29-2007 at 06:43 AM

Hey guys..

Thanks for the posts! this is getting really exciting..I am going to try and contact the publishers and see what can be done..maybe if we get enough interest they might consider doing the translation for us...

Thanks for all the enthusiasm lets hope that we will soon have the translated book! :airguitar:

Ash

Arto - 5-29-2007 at 07:50 AM

Jason wrote:
"I remember the site that mentioned a translation was being worked on. I can't recall who's site it was on though. Needless to say that was probably a year or longer when I first saw the site and it hasn't been updated since."

It is Nikos Dimitriadis´site:
http://www.oud.gr/News.htm

The same text has been there for several years, I think, so the translation doesn´t seem too probably to be available soon (or ever?). However, I think it would be polite to ask Nikos about the current situation, wouldn´t it?

I think the idea of "joint project translation" would be a great one indeed. And I suppose a translation alone would be quite enought and useful, or would it be possible to put also the pictures and sheet music to be available in the net or here at Cafe (better still)? Of course we need prof. Torun´s permission, and probably that of his publisher, too?

If a "translation only" would be easier, I think it would suffice, as the book itself in Turkish is still available (I think?). This has been done - years ago I was deeply interested in Japanese swords, and have some Japanese books (text, pictures, diagrams...) with a later English translation with only the text. Works fine is you have the original book.

greetings, Arto

arsene - 5-30-2007 at 02:56 AM

By the way, has anyone ever read this one: The Oud

Jack_Campin - 5-30-2007 at 08:02 AM

How exactly would Mr Torun get any royalties from the translation?

I've got a copy, which I paid full price for. I could translate bits of it. But NO WAY IN HELL am I going to be part of a project which *starts* with a pirated PDF and ends with something that rips the author off even worse.

Ashley - 5-30-2007 at 10:12 AM

Jack.

I am sure a lot of people (myself included) paid full price for Ud Metodu

No one is talking about pirating pdf's or indeed ripping off Mr Toran

Just to make it clear to you in case you didn't get the gist of this thread..

We are trying to find a way to get it translated I am sure that everybody respects the time and dedication that Mr Toran put in to completing his book and nobody would ever want to cause him any grief by making an illicit translation. I am also quite certain that everybody appreciates the consequences of an illegal translation and wouldn't want to incur a lawsuit over copyright infringement.

I wonder if you even read the postings that are on this thread as the subject of legality has been discussed already

Quote:
Originally posted by Ashley
"As far as the pdf goes (in fact as far as any full translation goes) I think we would need to check out the copyright and licensing issues involved. perhaps we could contact the publishers or Mr Toran himself."

Quote:
Originally posted by adamgood

"I do think this would be the obvious first step, to contact the author.
oh man this would be really great!"

As it stands I am currently trying to contact the publishes and Mr Toran regarding these issues..I quote once more...

Quote:
Originally posted by Ashley
"I am going to try and contact the publishers and see what can be done..maybe if we get enough interest they might consider doing the translation for us"

As Adam has already said Mr Toran would probably be very happy that interest in his work and indeed the Oud extends beyond the Turkish speaking world. If we could get a translation authorised by the publisher he would also stand to benefit quite considerably from the royalties.

I hope this clears things up for you...

I must say that I am quite irritated at having to explain the whole thread, something that you ought to have read yourself :mad:

.
I need people that are going to be constructive rather than post unjustified criticism. If you are so concerned why on earth didn't you find a way to contact the publisher or Mr Toran before posting here, that would have been a lot more useful.
I am also curious as to why you would even consider translating small segments of the book if you are so concerned about copyright issues...strange.... :rolleyes:

Anyways..enough said..

If you have something constructive to add to this thread then please feel free to do so..if not please refrain from cluttering up the board, it just makes it even harder for us to achieve something worthwhile...
=================================================================
Guys, I will let you all know how I get on with contacting the publisher until then it would be great if we all did some research..

Best wishes

Ash :buttrock:

arsene - 5-30-2007 at 10:35 AM

I'm thinking the trick here is to let the publishers and mr. Torun know that a whole lot of people are interested and willing to purchase the translated version of the ud metodu.

Maybe we should sign a petition or something! :shrug:

Andy - 5-30-2007 at 11:33 AM

I recall discussion of this same subject years ago on the Oud Home Page, when it was the main and only oud forum. Back then, 5 0r 6 years ago, it was thought that there would be a translation of the book from Turkish to English but do not believe it ever was started.

Ashley - 5-30-2007 at 11:57 AM

Ok guys

I have sent an email to Bemol Müzik Yayınları in Turkey...

They publish a version of Ud metodu with an accompanying VCD!!! (I never knew this before! it could be a big help)
(links at bottom of post)

I told them about this forum and that loads of people would love to get an English translation..I tried to make them realise that they and Mr Toran could make quite a bit of money from it and that a market exists in Europe and America that would make the whole venture economically viable

So..now I guess we will have to wait for a reply I don't know how long this will take and perhaps I will have to send them a number of emails but hopefully we are going in the right direction :bounce:

Do you think we should all send them emails to show our enthusiasm or should we wait for a reply?

Arsene! I like the petition idea, we might have to do this to prove what I have said to them about the market and such :

My next step will be to either phone them and/or contact Mr Toran in person..but this might be harder..we shall see

anyway I will keep you all posted on any new developments and let me know of all your ideas so that we can get this thing sorted!!!....

Take Care

Ash....heres those links!

for Ud metodu with VCD
http://www.tulumba.com/storeItem.asp?ic=zBK324275DC665

The Publishers email address
info@bemolmusic.com

arsene - 5-30-2007 at 12:02 PM

In the meantime, has anyone ever checked out these methods? Just in case, you know...

1. How to play Oud (VCD)

2. The Oud

adamgood - 5-30-2007 at 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashley

Guys, I will let you all know how I get on with contacting the publisher until then it would be great if we all did some research..

Ashley that is great you are in touch with the publisher actually it brings up the point that it would be super handy dandy for everyone (I'm thinkng the pub house and Mutlu Torun) if it was published by the same company. no having to deal with rights and blah blah blah. The Turkish version already seems to be available via enough distributors. so they can make another english version available and yes, they will see sales.

I wonder how willing they would be to hire someone to do the translating? I know via via the guy who does the English translations for many of the Kalan CDs. He's American, lives in Istanbul, speaks Turkish very very well and is a musician so he'll understand the gist of everything.

well likewise, WE could hire him...what if I contacted him to ask for his price? And if anyone else here wishes to translate a section or two, that is also way cool.

Adam

Jason - 5-30-2007 at 05:35 PM

arsene: I have that first VCD you linked. Honestly, you can probably learn everything on it by visiting this site and http://www.maqamworld.com As far as I can recall it doesn't really get into any kind of nuance of playing... nor ornamentation, phrasing, etc.

Adam, I think it would be great if you could contact him and find out what it would cost to do this. I suppose that it is possible the publishers will have no interest in doing a translation.

I'm not sure of the legalities involved but it seems ethical to have a text translation to go along with the diagrams and pictures inside the (purchased) book which many of us already have.

It may be jumping the gun a bit but I've also always wanted a good translation of the Targan book

arsene - 5-31-2007 at 03:42 AM

Maybe if we offer the publishers a finished translation they will be more likely to accept it? That way they'll have a finished, marketable product. Costs them less. Just thinking aloud here, really.

Jason - thanks. I thinking about buying that VCD. How about the methods featured on Lark in the morning? Anyone?

Cheers,

Andi

Ashley - 6-1-2007 at 07:53 AM

I got a quote for translation prices here in England...its really expensive actually..125 GBP for 1000 words..so I guess it would end up costing thousands...

Adam..it would be cool if you could see how much your guy would do it for maybe its cheaper in Turkey, America and Europe...but I think we can expect that where ever we go it would cost loads of money

...

There is a guy who has his own publishing company in the place where I work..on Monday I will see if he has some spare time so that I can ask him about all these things..
It would be good to know about copyright and such as if we end up having to do all the translation work ourselves via a translation company perhaps we could get some kind of deal to distribute it amongst our group..

I really dont know how all this works so i will get back to you all after I speak to the publisher guy.

Still no news from the publisher I emailed but I guess it is still early days yet..if I don't get a reply by next week I will give them a call and ask about it.

Speak soon

Ash

David Parfitt - 6-1-2007 at 11:47 AM

If the text could be translated at least roughly, one way to avoid the copyright issue might be to just provide notes or a summary of each page or section - preferably as an online resource. I'm sure it is not really necessary to have a word for word translation. Most of the material on my website was gleaned from Arabic/Turkish books with the help of a dictionary.

David

eliot - 6-1-2007 at 02:38 PM

I can't quite remember how many pages of text content there were in Mutlu's book, but from memory, and based on a knowledge of going rates for translation here in Istanbul (15ytl for 1500 characters - that's a sparse double-spaced page at best), I would guess in the $3000 range. Not including permissions/royalties (who knows what that might run, if anything...)

Not trying to dampen the enthusiasm - it's a great idea for a project.

I don't think many people translating little bits would be wise. The end result would have absolutely no writing consistency. Particularly with English-->Turkish (and vice versa) a literal translation will appear to be entirely ridiculous without the hand of an expert translator (like Bob Beer, and a few others).

adamgood - 6-2-2007 at 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by eliot
I don't think many people translating little bits would be wise. The end result would have absolutely no writing consistency. Particularly with English-->Turkish (and vice versa) a literal translation will appear to be entirely ridiculous without the hand of an expert translator (like Bob Beer, and a few others).

Eliot thanks for your ideas here.

Bob is actually the guy I've been thinking about, I just got his email address from a friend. He's really the ideal person to do the translation methinks.

And Eliot I really like what you say about many people doing little chunks, there is a risk it comes out very inconsistent.

adam

Ashley - 6-2-2007 at 04:22 AM

Hi Everybody

Good News!!!

I received a reply form Bemol publishers in Turkey and it looks like a Translation is under way here is a copy of the email.
======================================================================
Dear Ashley

Fistly, I just want to thank you for your interest in our book.
We want you to know that all the rights of the book belong to Bemol Music Publishing.
“Ud Metodu” was written by Mutlu Torun and published for Turkish market but now
we are attempting to translate it in English and we are thinking on making an English
dubbing for the CD’s too. The book will contain four CDs. Other CDs will be presented
both in English and Turkish, within the only book and the CD.
I hope this information is enough for you. Please send your messages about this again.

Yours Sincerely Bemol Music Publishing Selmiye İldan
===================================================================

I have written them a new email to ask when the new translation will be ready, so fingers crossed we will have the book soon!...

Hopefully this will save us all a lot of work and money!

Thank you Eliot for your ideas I agree that if many people were to end up translating sections of the book it would probably end up being incoherent. Thanks also for finding out how much a translation would cost, lets just hope that the publishers are true to their word otherwise the cost is going to make this really difficult (if not impossible)

I suppose now would be a good time to express our interest to the publishers by sending them loads of emails asking when the book will be finished. Perhaps if we can send them enough they will be inspired to get it completed quickly.

here is the email for the publisher info@bemolmusic.com

Just want to say Thank you all for your help and enthusiasm and I hope that we will soon have the long awaited translation

Speak soon

Ash

arsene - 6-2-2007 at 08:36 AM

Time has yet to prove if that is indeed good news or not...! But I'm keeping fingers, toes and everything I can crossed!

Ashley - 6-2-2007 at 11:51 AM

lol Arsene...I know how you feel! maybe with enough emails they will be convinced to do it!

Ashley - 6-9-2007 at 05:17 AM

Hello Everyone

Still no further news from the publisher so I think I will go ahead and call them on Monday..I think this is going to be a slow process but I just wanted to let you all know that I am still chasing them..I will post more news as I get it
Did anybody else try to contact them?

arsene - 6-9-2007 at 08:20 AM

I sent them an e-mail... no reply...

eliot - 6-9-2007 at 12:43 PM

We heard news about the English edition of this coming out from them, what was it, a few years ago???

I would not expect the most punctual of replies, but if one comes, praise be to Allah (tanrı, God, etc.).

MatthewW - 6-9-2007 at 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jason
arsene: I have that first VCD you linked. Honestly, you can probably learn everything on it by visiting this site and http://www.maqamworld.com As far as I can recall it doesn't really get into any kind of nuance of playing... nor ornamentation, phrasing, etc.

I also have seen that VCD ( how to play the UD vol1) and agree with Jason- it is very very basic and you can learn more all on this website, plus more. I did enjoy watching the teacher with his blackboard!
Matthew

arsene - 6-10-2007 at 04:40 AM

Yeah, Maqamworld and the vids on Mike's website are truly great, great tools for studying the maqamat.

I was kinda hoping that VCD would cover some ornamentation or phrasing techniques...

Aren't there any other methods aside from Ud Metodu and this VCD? You know, just in case the translation never arrives...