Mike's Oud Forums

eagle risha

azzizza - 6-20-2007 at 06:04 AM

Hi all, Any leads or availability of eagle risha? I remember being in Engin Erogluer's shop in Istanbul with our language gap and i was flapping my arms like wings to ask if he had any available (he didn't)

Armen

risha

azzizza - 6-20-2007 at 06:26 AM

Anyone willing sell me any of their eagle risha? email me at armensevag@comcast.net if so ..thanks

Armen
http://www.aravod.com

damascene_oud - 6-21-2007 at 04:05 AM

Hi azzizza,
I think they are extremely rare now adays, not because it's hard to get eagle's feathers, but also because they need a special process that i think doesn't exist anymore. I use a risha made of sliced bull horn, that i scrub with a file to the desired thicknedd and then i dip it in olive oil for a week, after that i make final touches to it with the fine file. And it is the best i had known so far.
You never hear the hissing sound of scratch on the strings like other kinds of rishas.
You may want to try those if u can get'em.

MatthewW - 6-21-2007 at 04:35 AM

Hi damascene_oud! I've seen these buffalo rishas on ebay with Nile Shop, are these the type of risha you are talking about? : http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2-HandMade-Egyptian-Oud-Pick-Risha-BuffaloHor...

I'd be interested to know where you can purchase the buffalo rishas my friend, or do you have a buffalo in your garden?

I've also heard that eagle risha may tend to wear down quickly, but not having used one I am not sure. got the U2Us, thanks!

ALAMI - 6-21-2007 at 08:41 AM

Guys, please leave the eagles alone,
don't be part of "creating demand", hunting eagles is forbidden anywhere. They will tell you "it is from a zoo or we found it in the nature" and you'll fool yourself into believing, you'll pay 20 dollars for it and that's how "demand" is created.
I have a house in the high mountain in North Lebanon, when I was a kid tens of eagles used to be looping around in the sky, in the last 5 years I haven't seen a single eagle in this region, they killed them all.
I've tried an eagle risha once, it is honestly not good, very thin and difficult to grab, and if you play hard you'll break it in an hour. I have a quantity of horn rishas from Aleppo, you have to buy ten to get a decent one (after oil and sanding with 600 then oil then sanding)
The best rishas I've tried were a gift from our friend Jameel specially the one with double thickness: very soft from one side and mid-hard from the other, you'll find yourself flipping it depending on what you're playing.

MatthewW - 6-21-2007 at 09:20 AM

I feel similiar to Alami, I don't think my conscience would let me play a decent maqam thinking about how and by what means they got the eagle to 'donate' a risha. I've been using the usual plastic rishas, and haven't tried any of those double thickness ones Jameel had, they sound interesting.
( later addition) this thread is starting to get very interesting!

Ronny Andersson - 6-21-2007 at 09:35 AM

Eagle rishas of the Iraqi tradition as used by the late Munir Bashir and now his son Omar are stored in oliv oil for 6 months and after that they won’t split at all (I don’t know how many times I have been writing that here). I am using eagle rishas since very long time and they last very long time up two 2-3 years and then I play normally for some hours every day if I am in mood for it. But, eagle rishas are best suited for ouds with lower string tension and this is not a problem on the Bashir oud if you lower the tuning as I do or like Bashir did most of the time. The eagle risha technique is very different all other material being used for rishas and most players find the eagle risha very difficult to master and believe me I have seen a lot….Anyway, is offcourse not wise to use feathers from endangered species but they are legal sources such as some taxidermist that sometimes have a eagle feather. Or like my recent luck when I won a beautiful oud on ¨terrible eBay¨ that came with an old eagle risha!

jdowning - 6-21-2007 at 12:32 PM

How are the eagle feathers prepared for use as rishas - apart from soaking in olive oil? I imagine that the end of the quill must be pared or cut down (like making a quill pen?) - but how is this done exactly?
The use of eagle feathers is, I understand, traditional but what is special about these feathers - are they of particularly large size (and from what part of the wing of what particular species of eagle)? Or is the use of eagle feathers possibly just a romantic idea - like the oud strings made from the intestines of a young lion quoted in early Arabic texts? Has anyone tried other kinds of bird feathers? I ask because I have a flock of domestic geese on my farm and at this time of year they are moulting (naturally discarding their feathers) - so there are large wing feathers lying about all over the place going to waste. I would be willing to experiment with these feathers if others with more experience in these matters than I think that this might be a viable alternative source for making rishas.

Quills, horn and plastic

LeeVaris - 6-21-2007 at 10:58 PM

Ahh... the endless quest for the perfect risha!

I have been experimenting with different risha for a while now – sort of an excercise in frustration. I had the good fortune to try an eagle risha once . It belonged to Ghassan Bashir. This was one of the most flexible little rishas I've ever seen - it was like butter! Very thin and flexible yet strong with a hard surface. I've attempted to make something similar out of goose feathers, pea<b>rooster</b> feathers – probably the closest I've come to eagle was using turkey feathers BUT it was not very close. In the end I don't think the material is as important as the technique you use with the specific risha. I really think that you can develop a technique for anything. Hard, soft, flexible, stiff – they all have their own sound and anything can work with the right technique.

Lately I've been using stiffer risha – my current favorite are the "Mizrite" risha that Jameel has. These are very tough and hold up to heavy use very well – you can sand them down to very thin or shape them so they are a bit stiffer. I suggest finding a material that sounds good and sticking with it for a while until you get a good feel for it. Work on developing your technique and don't obsess over some magical material.

Of course... I only advise that because I'm obsessed with trying new risha materials myself. :airguitar:

abusin - 6-22-2007 at 06:09 AM

Hi all,

Indeed a very interesting topic, well because I am contemplating something similar, or shall I say the same thing! well I agree with Lee Varis in saying ( I suggest finding a material that sounds good and sticking with it for a while until you get a good feel for it. Work on developing your technique and don't obsess over some magical material.
But for me the risha is always a headache, and my collection of risha's its ever growing tired every type but never satisfied with sound, but to be fair some risha's work better than others. and also as Lee mentioned the technique is a big factor and sometimes I watch other people playing using same risha's I used with great sound.

But as it turned out to be an obsession with risha's for me now, and in my quest for the perfect risha I am going to experiment with new materials I don't think its been tried before (I haven't heard of anyone using or trying to customise one) so it may turn out to be a new discovery

Right folks, just recently through one of my contacts in Sudan I was introduced to one of the local wildlife officers very helpful guy and very passionate about his work I really admired his dedication and commitment to what he loves doing best which is the preservation of the wildlife and care for the animals.
He took me on a safari last year and showed around on of the most beautiful safari parks in the area, man it was the most exciting three days in my life we spent in the jungle and as wildlife is one of my favourite subjects I really enjoyed it watching animals big and small and being close to them was awesome.
Sorry back to the subject of risha's, one of the animals I was really fascinated by was the porcupine, especially its defensive techniques by puffing its quills ready to launch it at its opponent or attacker, and they super sharp like darts and definitely very painful. I asked my friend what are they I mean are they bone or what so he explained they similar to the feather shaft...
So when I got back to England I thought about the possibility of making a risha out of one using the same technique used for eagle risha's, I also asked him to fetch me some eagle feathers (but this proved to be a little bit tricky when he asked me what species of eagles am after? as he said they have a many types of them)?
Right, just last night I phoned him and excitedly said he got me five porcupine quills, and he received a call from a local zoo telling him that they have eagles in captivity with lots of feathers scattered in the den ;)
So now we have got the raw materials with no damage to the environment and no suffering caused to any of the animals concerned (this is the first thing I made sure about, and stressed that this is an experiment and I am not and will not make a profit out of it)
It’s just as well as anyone here I just want to try and see if there is any magic in this.
As soon as I get the materials I will start a thread and work on the project with your help and guidance and any other resources available. And then we will put them to the test and see the result.
I am very excited about this already guys it will be fun for me and I hope it will be the same for you.
I just googled porcupine quill and it turned out to be a native American thing used in decorations and other things, so this is the first resource I am going to research for ideas. And if you can come up with anything in regard to the project let me know.

I am expecting the quills anytime within the first two weeks in July, so pray with me they pass the sniffer dogs at the airport.

Best regards to all, and stay tuned

Awad

oudplayer - 6-22-2007 at 06:31 AM

Hey awad

great topic number one,
number 2 awad , when i was hiking in israel 3 days across the country sea to sea , we saw lots and lots of porkiipines. so i was these sharp lil things and desided to take a 12 of them or a lil more, and thought to my self i will try to make stiff rishis out of them. when i got back to my apt in israel i started sanding and shaving them down . btw they looked very kool after doing it bc it was a nice color to them .
so when packing to come home i must have left themt here bc i cant find them, but if you loved stiff rishis and play very slow like teckniques wise these are great and they havea a absalute nice sound i think
"to each its own"
thx sammy

abusin - 6-23-2007 at 04:38 AM

Hi Sammy,



Great to know someone have tried this before, but what I am thinking now is using the same method used with eagle feather, which is soaking in olive oil for the same duration (six month) to soften them a bit.

Did you soak them or sanded them straight away, will see how this ones will turn out and will keep you all updated.

I am so looking forward to put my hand on them



Cheers,



Awad

damascene_oud - 6-23-2007 at 05:32 AM

Hi Matthew dear,
Those kinds of Bufallo rishas can be found in stores selling oriental instruments namely Qanoon. Generally speaking they are used to play qanoon with, but can be used for oud also when carefully cut and rasped with a fine file to suit your taste and technique. For me they are better than eagle's feather.
And yes i agree with you dear Alami, we shouldn't promote killing of wild predacious free birds just for the feather or any other reason. therefore i join my voice to yours. And asure you that nobody would ever think of going to nature and camp for just a feather of an eagle. Not to mention that eagle's feather is taken from only one or two species of those birds, normally this feather grows in the birds neck. People usually hunt those birds to train them on hunting, which is a wrold sport, very much known in the arab world. And those birds, are particularly extremely expensive due to their rarity.
So guys, try other things, try the buffallo risha and forget about the eagles, after all it too hard for anyone to catch an eagle.
And no dear buffallo, i wish i had a heard of buffallos in my garden, i would have given a risha for each one of you. :D

damascene_oud - 6-23-2007 at 05:54 AM

oh guys just remembered something about rishas,
once i was walking in the narrow winding alleys of old town Damascus when i came across the old shop of the late Mr. Mohammed Haddad (very famous oud professor in Damascus) i had known him since long time then. I went to his very interesting old shop, which was like heaven to me, and i would forget everything in the world and get lost, amongst rare old ouds for Nahhat and others, rare music sheets...and his oud playing.
I entered his shop and he was sitting listening to Oum Kolsoum. He nodded to me to sit down (very old wooden chair carrying the burden of many years of use), i sat down without saying a word, not even a hiss.
As the song finished, he started to praise the paralleled singing of Oum Kolsoum and her heavinly voice and stunning performance. Then i noticed an old oud sitting next to him, he answered my question that this was an old nahhat our dating back to 1920's, i asked him to play something for me on it.
He took the oud (which was fascinating in terms of shape and design) and started searching for something, i asked him what about he was looking for, he said his risha. After he lost hope of finding a risha among the neatly laid chaos of dusty items in his shop, he looked around and asked me to hand over to him a match box that was close to me. He took it, tore the outside cover of the matchbox, and folded maybe 3 times and made it almost 1 c.m wide.
He grabbed it, and said: "i feel like playing this song for Oum Kolsoum"
and with the Nahhat Oud and this most unusuly risha he played "Ya Zalemni".
The only thing i could do, is to sit there, with my mouth open, totally dazzled at two things: one, how stunning his playing was, second: how fascinting his playing was using such kind of very premitive risha.
As he finished, i told him that this is really amazing how can one use anything to play oud with. He said: "Habibi, an outsider can never produce any kind of art if he doesn't have the talent, even if he uses the most expensive sable painting brushes, but a real artist can create masterpieces using anything in his very talented hand even a piece of charcoal" then he esued his saying by an old arabic proverb, roughly translates into: "A sword takes its power from the hand holding it".
He was one of a kind...god rest his soul.

Ronny Andersson - 6-23-2007 at 08:45 AM

John, the Iraqi styled risha is made of of the ¨Rachis¨ part of the Retrice feathers (the primaries) and not the ¨calamus¨section which is called for ¨Quill¨. The ¨calamus¨section is hollowed and not suitable for risha but this is the sections we use for writing instrument since the hollow sections function as a reservoir for the ink and the end is easy to shape. The technique for making a writing instrument is completely different the technique used for rishas and we do not use the same part of the feather but the common thing is that we use the same feathers of the bird; the Retrice feathers. Thought the swan and goose feathers were the preferred for ¨writing pens¨ but some predator birds feathers were also used. The Retrice feathers are the strongest feathers on a bird and predator birds have the strongest ones among all bird species. The Rachis part is shaped as a semi circle and after splitting it in two sections along its shaft one keep the section that has flat side. When splitting the shaft is essential that one doesn’t remove all the soft white dried remains of the pulp which strengthen the risha after it has been stored in olive oil. It takes approximately 6 months for the oliv oil to penetrate the ¨white pulp¨ and it changes color during the process from white to light brown. If you remove the ¨white pulp¨ you end up with a risha that is very fragile and there is no purpose to store it in oliv oil since the oil nor soften or strengthen the keratin. Thought, oliv oil is good for the flexibility of horn rishas but it depends also of the quality/texture of the horn.





Quote:
Originally posted by jdowning
How are the eagle feathers prepared for use as rishas - apart from soaking in olive oil? I imagine that the end of the quill must be pared or cut down (like making a quill pen?) - but how is this done exactly?
The use of eagle feathers is, I understand, traditional but what is special about these feathers - are they of particularly large size (and from what part of the wing of what particular species of eagle)? Or is the use of eagle feathers possibly just a romantic idea - like the oud strings made from the intestines of a young lion quoted in early Arabic texts? Has anyone tried other kinds of bird feathers? I ask because I have a flock of domestic geese on my farm and at this time of year they are moulting (naturally discarding their feathers) - so there are large wing feathers lying about all over the place going to waste. I would be willing to experiment with these feathers if others with more experience in these matters than I think that this might be a viable alternative source for making rishas.

jdowning - 6-23-2007 at 12:54 PM

Thanks for the information Ronny - also as domestic geese do not fly (very much or far) their feathers, I imagine, are likely much weaker compared to those of soaring birds like eagles.
Whatever happened to eagle talons though - these were supposed to be the best for rishas in earlier times?
Regards
John

MatthewW - 6-24-2007 at 02:45 AM

dear damascene_oud, thanks for sharing that lovely story with us about your interesting experience in the old shop of Mr. Mohammed Haddad, and how he took a part of a matchbox cover to use for a risha. Besides oud, I also play guitar, and there have been times in the past when I didn't have a guitar pick at hand and I did the same thing, taking a piece of matchbox cover ( that's when I used to smoke and always had a matchbox with me!) and folding it until it was stiff enough to play with. There is a lot of wisdom for us in the example of Mr. Mohammed Haddad, and also what Lee Varis has said in this interesting thread, that "in the end I don't think the material is as important as the technique used". It's still interesting to read what others have commented and what we are using for rishas. :airguitar:

Benjamin - 6-24-2007 at 03:12 AM

:applause:
Very interesting thread, I myself spend three hours yesterday night to sand down some plastic you use to tigh electric cables so as to make a risha, as I'm not satisfied from the two first one I made myself on the same way. And dear Damascene_oud your story gave me incentive to go on playing oud today instead of trying to find the perfect risha and to go on for another new risha.. Maybe the perfect risha is like the perfect woman (or man if you are a woman like Marina ;-) ), you can dream about it but you should deal with what you have..
:D

Ronny Andersson - 6-24-2007 at 06:07 AM

John, I have tried goose feathers and as you stated they are more fragile and the part you need for a correct risha in the Iraqi style that I described, then are the goose feathers insufficient in many aspects. I have noticed that historians of medieval plectrums for lutes and other plucked instruments when they reconstruct medieval plectrums use the Calamus section (quill) which is the part that is more or less cylindrical and also comes without the remains of the pulp! Therefore a plectrum made of this part has a tendency to be rather fragile. I wonder whether the Iraqi risha technique were more widely spread in the past and today is a forgotten ¨ancient art¨ . Well, I have never tried eagle talons and I don’t think I will.

Ronny Andersson - 6-24-2007 at 06:20 AM

"in the end I don't think the material is as important as the technique used"

What a simplification, the technique depends off course on the material why else the variations in materials for risha and risha techniques? I recall Munir Bashir complaining the last years his struggle to find eagle risha and believe me the majority of players searching for their ¨perfect risha¨ fitting their technique have not developed a neither personal technique nor expression. You have to settle your mind when they are no short cuts to be a good oud player.

damascene_oud - 6-24-2007 at 12:28 PM

Yes dear Matthew i totally agree with Lee Varis has said here. It's not the risha but the hand that holding it. I ahve seen people playing oud with the most elaborate and rare eagle's feather, but i wasn't impressed at all.
And have seen people playing oud using a piece of matchbox, i was totally stunned to their play.
And good you have quit smoking Matthew, that's the best part in this whole story. :wavey:

jdowning - 6-24-2007 at 12:57 PM

An interesting thread.
I was trying to remember where I had heard the reference to eagle talons being used. I seem to remember that the kind gentleman in Cairo who tried to introduce me to the art of oud playing in 10 minutes(!)- after I had purchased my oud - mentioned the use of eagle talons. On further checking my files I find that it apparently was Ziryab, at the court of Khalif Harun (died 809) who introduced a plectrum of eagle's talon instead of that of wood which had formerly been used (ref. H.G. Farmer - Studies in Oriental Musical Instruments, Civic Press, Glasgow, 1939). So a 'matchbox' risha is likely more ancient and historically correct than those made from modern materials.
Thank goodness eagle talons are no longer in vogue!

Ronny Andersson - 6-24-2007 at 01:11 PM

Thanks for refreshing my memory John, actually the traditional plectrum for the saz was made of the innerbark of cherry and was stored in oliv oil but I dont know if there is any source about whether the wood plectrum was made of the innerbark or sap/heartwood.

abusin - 6-25-2007 at 07:42 AM

Hi Ronny,

So it is right (this perfec risha obssesion or myth, have even troubled the masters?) "I recall Munir Bashir complaining the last years his struggle to find eagle risha"

I just find it fursrating, when you play and you don't like the sound straight away you blame it on the risha, and some times I use the same risha and it goes perfectly well.. so what is the mystry here?
This is why I decided trying the eagle feather just to see if it will make sparks fly and a little genie appears and take over the taqsim to another level:)
also as I mentioned above I will try the porcupine quill, as its similar to feather shaft in structure and may be in contents?
anyway its furustration in simple terms:(

best regards,

Awad

Brynley - 6-25-2007 at 11:37 AM

I,m in agreement to leave the Eagles alone, most times I would think the eagle would be killed to obtain the feathers. Most wild animals in the world are in danger of extinction these days,(unlike in earlier times) and it seems the rarer an animal gets, the more demand there is for it,s body parts. Lets help keep these animals around for our grandchildren to admire, and find other risha matierials to play our music with.

Ronny Andersson - 6-25-2007 at 12:03 PM

Hi Awad, yes Munir Bashir is maybe the oudplayer who only used eagle risha and if you play his compositions or use his ¨expressions¨ then you understand why eagle rishas are completely different other materials. Eagle risha gives a certain sound and also possibilities for the right hand but most find the eagle risha difficult to use but is worth a try. I have tried to ¨immitate¨ the features of the eagle risha with using horn of a special texture and the result has been good but not 100% accurate. If you need help to make risha from your ¨legal¨ eagle feathers so let me know.

Ronny Andersson - 6-25-2007 at 12:14 PM

well if they use rishas made of the feathers from the neck of the eagle and treated with special process that doesnt exist anymore so then the result have to be esoteric and abstract.


Quote:
Originally posted by damascene_oud
Yes dear Matthew i totally agree with Lee Varis has said here. It's not the risha but the hand that holding it. I ahve seen people playing oud with the most elaborate and rare eagle's feather, but i wasn't impressed at all.
And have seen people playing oud using a piece of matchbox, i was totally stunned to their play.
And good you have quit smoking Matthew, that's the best part in this whole story. :wavey:

excentrik - 6-25-2007 at 10:28 PM

There are no "legal" eagle feathers in the US- you have to have a Tribal I.D. card to able to hunt or collect any of the indigenous birds of prey and their feathers- My wife is from the Yaqui Nation- she's given me tons of eagle feathers, but I dont have the heart (given their sacredness) to make them into rishas-

but dont trip- there are very few instances where the eagle is killed to obtain feathers (at least here) - they are all over the ground wherever eagles nest- very simple operation- you know?

tarik

abusin - 6-26-2007 at 01:09 AM

Hi Ronny,

I very much apreciate your response, I hope one day I just manage to hold my risha properliy like master Jamil:airguitar:
but his (compositions or use his ¨expressions¨ ) this is a very distant dream in my world.

Yes Ronny, you help is most definitley wellcome and I think Ronny if I am not mistaken a while ago I came arcoss an eagle risha making tips I can't remember now the steps, I don't know if it was your post that was or you were part of it, refresh my memory man
And yes again I will be looking for your help and guidance:xtreme:

Hi Tarik,

whassup man, No one is going to sly an eagle or a porcupine, yes this beautiful creatures renew their father and spikes we just gather them and its quite a search up the mountains and through the dense forests and luckily in my situation the guy is just going through his daily routine of sweeping the eagle cage:D

best regards,

Awad

Ronny Andersson - 6-28-2007 at 04:06 AM

In the Kobza thread I found this post by clarkwelsh:
>The traditional pick is made from a goose quill, which quickly wears out or cracks, so I use box sealing >plastic banding, 1/4" wide, folded over and tied with thread about 3/4" back from the fold.

So goose feathers are weak materials. Hows about Pea<b>rooster</b>? I recall posts by Emad about Farid using Pea<b>rooster</b> and I know medieval pluckers like this material.

jdowning - 6-28-2007 at 05:16 AM

No question that this 15th C lute player is using a feather risha. The hand position seems to imply that both fingers and risha might be used to pluck the strings?

adamgood - 6-28-2007 at 08:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jdowning
No question that this 15th C lute player is using a feather risha. The hand position seems to imply that both fingers and risha might be used to pluck the strings?


huh interesting, it's not too unlike how you should hold a mizrab for Turkish classical plucked tanbur, although that's nothing like a floppy feather quill rather a really thick tortoise shell long thingy. I mean more the hand position, the fingers come into the sound board, often tapping the face of the instrument. My friend Christos plays ud kinda like this.

(Mav, did you get to hear Christos Govetas play outi when you visited them? did he hold his mizrab like a pencil/tanbur mizrab sort of?)

adam

MatthewW - 6-28-2007 at 08:18 AM

hey guys, are you sure that isn't his toothbrush he's holding in that photo above?
;)

mavrothis - 6-28-2007 at 08:22 AM

Hey Adam,

Yes, Christos holds the mizrap like this, and I actually was first taught to hold it like that. Interesting huh? Greek laouto (mandocello-like instrument) hold their picks this way almost exclusively, with few exceptions.

If you check out this page, you will see a similar way of holding the pick:

Valencia Oud Project

mavrothis

Eagle Rishas finally available !

Oud.Proff - 4-15-2018 at 02:47 AM

Finally here !
Male African Risha to pluck the oud strings....

While attending a scientific conference (for biologists; me included :cool: ) in South Africa few years back, I came across a very interesting story in what's been called back then as the "Bachelors' Molting Zone". To make a long story short, the African black eagle have the potential (genetically) to live long extended years. However, they initially hatch (not born !) with primitive warming special form of feathers known as "down". The downs get transformed into more "keratinized" feathers, which help the "growing" birdy beast for several more years. However, the growth of the those (I'd call milk feathers !) can no longer keep up with the ongoing growth of the eagle. Now, the eagles (especially maturing males) have to make a life-changing decision to reset-restart a new growth of new set of "sexy" feathers in order to look better in front of those sexy chicks (female eagles !), as well as to manage to hunt perfectly and carry on sophisticated flying maneuvers for more delicious and larger preys. So, the males in particular are expelled/kicked out of the pack (usually females of different ages look after each other better). Now, those poor males gather and start whining about their fate :mad:
Yet, some more determined males (alpha leaders :xtreme: ) take the initiative of picking off their old keratinized feathers (literally pick off each feather with their beaks, outrooting style), starting with smaller feathers, and thus imprinting the other hesitant/confused ones to do so. The inner instinct supported by visual learning start to kick in to other male of the pack soon afterwards. Yes, it DOES get bloody and ugly, as you can imagine. The major stress during that defeathered-phase stems from limited availability of food, as their motion (typical flying mode) has been momentarily compromised. Now, the ground gets filled with all forms of defeathered feathers.

Knowing it's a naturally-occurring process, without ANY inhumane intervention whatsoever, driven by my passion for oud playing......you now get the point ;) I managed to sign a deal with some fellow South African biologists for limited supply of such feathers. However, after rigorous testing and screening processes, I found out that less than only 3% of all feathers can be successfully transformed into good oud rishas. Besides, for purposes of export and assuring health and safety measures, the amount of work prior to shaping the rishas involves immense amount of preparations, such as (but not limited to):
1. The gathering.
2. Screening process, to keep a maximum of 3% of the feathers (~100 feathers/whole season; annually).
3. Hot steam + detergent rinsing (to get the dirt off).
4. Disinfection and neutralization of potential pathogens:
a. Chemical fumigation (antifungal, antiviral and antibacterial control).
b. Enzymatic treatment (to finally get rid of any genetic material left).
5. Oil priming.
6. Shaping and polish ! :applause:

So, yes, you can now play your oud like the classical oud legends (Farid Atrash, Wadee' Safi, Munir Bashir.....etc.)......... all in all, t's a totally different experience and feel indeed.

Can be ordered today (limited quantity) off eBay (the following link):

Buy Eagle Risha/Pick

Preparation prior to shipping takes ~5 days.
Please notify if you're a lefty/southpaw; as the rishas are made for right-handed players by default.
Upon receiving the risha(s), a risha tip (plucking side) will need to be soaked in oil (olive, almond, walnut or linseed) for a minimum of 21 days (better to reach 60 days). These final oiling steps are necessary to bring about elasticity to the desired level, and to assure longevity (can last a lifetime !). You can start using the risha after a minimum period of 21 days of soaking in oil. No need to go all the way to 6 months here (as in the old days), since several prior treatments have already been done with those rishas here.

Also, please indicate which style (A, B or C; according to the photo) and the number of each you want (after placing the order; by sending a message).

Here are some videos playing the oud with the eagle risha:

https://youtu.be/wHXj0tDzb70
https://youtu.be/dLb6jEWRASE
https://youtu.be/TEDaK7Qdw5M
https://youtu.be/6D17SbM2OBc
https://youtu.be/2v6uamFrc0g

Best regards,

Eagle Feathers-Mikes.jpg - 78kB

Oudistan - 4-15-2018 at 03:33 AM

With all due respect to everyone's opinion in this thread.

First of all, an eagle risha will never make you play better, only lots of practice and patience will. <-- there's the period

Second, I'm against creating interest in eagle feathers for any reason.
IF, and I repeat, IF it's true that those feathers were really collected from the ground after eagles shed their feathers in whatever natural growth process, creating mythical and false claims that they will produce a sound "that nothing else can produce" will lead to high demand, which will eventually lead to eagle hunting and, tada! EXTINCTION.. by stupid and MORONIC oud players who believe this risha will make them play like Munir Bashir... and by those who help in spreading those MYTHS about the "glorious" eagle risha.

1. Eagles are endangered species as it is.
2. We have moved past the myths and الخرافات و الهرطقات that dominated oud making/playing for decades.
3. Assuming it does sound good better than wood, plastic, and bone rishas.. Is there any proof that the sound this risha makes cannot be replicated by synthetic replication of its properties?
4. It is stupid to even have to argue about something like this..

This is disgusting on so many levels.

Time to move on folks, get back to practice..

Oud.Proff - 4-15-2018 at 01:28 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Oudistan  

IF, and I repeat, IF it's true that those feathers were really collected from the ground after eagles shed their feathers in whatever natural growth process, creating mythical and false claims that they will produce a sound "that nothing else can produce" will lead to high demand, which will eventually lead to eagle hunting and, tada! EXTINCTION.. by stupid and MORONIC oud players who believe this risha will make them play like Munir Bashir... and by those who help in spreading those MYTHS about the "glorious" eagle risha.

1. Eagles are endangered species as it is.
2. We have moved past the myths and الخرافات و الهرطقات that dominated oud making/playing for decades.
3. Assuming it does sound good better than wood, plastic, and bone rishas.. Is there any proof that the sound this risha makes cannot be replicated by synthetic replication of its properties?
4. It is stupid to even have to argue about something like this..

This is disgusting on so many levels.

Time to move on folks, get back to practice..


Well, OudStan, you started your text by saying "with all due respect", but frankly your words ("stupid; moronic; disgusting; myths, extinction; خرافات، هرطقات.....etc.") are way out of the line, and are disrespectful to the members here !

I'm a biologist myself, and know scientifically how "extinction" flows and works. Wonder how your conclusion about extinction fits real science.

Just to let you know, there are many eagle breeds out there, and relatively very VERY few oudists out there to drive those majestic beauties towards vanishing.
More importantly, those eagles receive greater attention than you think. This attention and care is not only scientific, but also legal and moral, on both levels, national and international levels.

Yes, those feathers are collected as described.
Also, yes, an eagle risha has its own unique feel.

The only agreement I have with you here, is that no Risha will make you play better. This was never implied in the first place.

Look for those many "periods" in my text as well, and try to work on your manners, and learn how to chill !

However, one thing made me really laugh hard, your word هرطقات (hermeticism) !!

:applause:

Chris-Stephens - 4-16-2018 at 07:55 AM

I must say I can see both sides of this debate. One one hand yes the eagle is a creature we should respect and do our best to conserve it. But I would choose to trust the prof in his feather collection methods he has described. Its a fine line between tradition, sound quality, and the human ethical dilemma of taking too much from nature. I say this as the proud player of the Persian Tar, an instrument made of fetal lamb skin, buffalo horn, camel femur, leather, and 100 year old mulberry tree trunk. The amount of natural materials in this instrument confronts me with a moral contradiction. I have to choose not to think about how they sourced the materials, especially the membrane. This is why I plan on using synthetic skin when this one eventually cracks. I can understand the process OudProf describes in which the eagles remove their own feathers, and it's quite fascinating! I don't see a problem with using them for risha. It's when they are killed intentionally to use their feathers only that is a problem. But I see that problem with trust. How do we know how others were sourced? Doesn't supporting this create demand that would motivate people to kill eagles for their quills? I'd guess probably not, unless I severely underestimate the number of people who read these forums. If anything the videos of masters such as Bachir and Atrash showing their eagle rishas do more to motivate the market than this post. But even then, that's what maybe 10 people? The oud is still a rare instrument. Think of all the horse hair in violin bows! I do draw the line at tortoise shell mizrabs as I cannot fathom how those are collected ethically from such a helpless and often endangered animal. I'd love for someone to demonstrate the difference between an eagle risha and a typical plastic one. Is using an eagle risha kind of a "social status symbol"?

SamirCanada - 4-16-2018 at 10:30 AM

Many eagles live in captivity where they are cared for and protected. Also they shed quite a bit of feathers every year so all you have to do is walk around the pen and collect them... it isn't necessary to kill the bird.

I agree Chris, the tortoise is a complete different thing, you have to kill the animal or hope to find it's carcase when it dies naturally (low probability of that, though some tortoise are in captivity where this could eventually be possible.

natural rishas feel different and yes better! the same way there is a difference between a horn risha and a plastic risha there would be a difference with an eagle risha.

Oudistan - 4-16-2018 at 08:39 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Oud.Proff  

..but frankly your words ("stupid; moronic; disgusting; myths, extinction; خرافات، هرطقات.....etc.") are way out of the line, and are disrespectful to the members here !

My words aren't disrespectful to "the members".. Why do you feel there's a need to redirect my words to "the members here"?
In fact, if you care a little bit and read people's responses to the OP in the thread, you'll see that almost all of them expressed their opposition to the use of eagle feathers as rishas.
If you think about it, your revival of this very old thread (11 years old) to advertise your feathers is what's disrespectful to the members.

You created oud DVD's which most of us loved, but what you're doing now is wrong and you should stop trying to make profit selling these feathers and stop advertising them all over the internet and social networks.
Aside from the moral aspect of marketing feathers of an endangered species, you're giving the oud community a bad name.
It's illegal as well, this is black-market activity, OudProff!
Quote: Originally posted by Oud.Proff  

Also, yes, an eagle risha has its own unique feel.

My words are disrespectful to those who engage in the use and trade of the feathers of a bird with a population of a few thousand.
Don't try to sell me any hocus-pocus about a unique sound or feel.. I can pluck my oud strings with a piece of glass and call it "unique".
Quote: Originally posted by Oud.Proff  

Yes, those feathers are collected as described.


Maybe your feathers are collected by harvesting feathers from eagles in captivity (still not cool, right?), or by picking them off the ground while walking extremely long distances in areas where those eagles live.. I'll choose to believe that.. But since you're a biologist, which I'll choose to believe as well, you sure do know that creating myths and hype around certain parts/organs of animals is indeed one of the causes of extinction, as happens when myths are created about the effect of consuming certain endangered animals' parts in places like Eastern Asia/China.

Quote: Originally posted by Oud.Proff  

Look for those many "periods" in my text as well, and try to work on your manners, and learn how to chill !

An eagle feather harvester wants me to work on my manners, amazing..
Quote: Originally posted by Chris-Stephens  

Doesn't supporting this create demand that would motivate people to kill eagles for their quills? I'd guess probably not, unless I severely underestimate the number of people who read these forums.

Dear Chris, don't underestimate the power of these forums, you can land on many posts by a simple google search about the oud, rishas, or maqamat.
Advertising eagle rishas on the internet, whether it's these forums, facebook, instagram, etc.. is the best way to reach a world-wide audience.
Yes, those specific feathers are advertised on all of these social networks.

Quote: Originally posted by Chris-Stephens  

But even then, that's what maybe 10 people? The oud is still a rare instrument.

Give a few calls to some makers and ask how many ouds are produced every year and you'll have a better assessment of how many ouds and oud players there are in the world.
The oud isn't a rare instrument, the oud is the lead instrument in Middle Eastern music.


Quote: Originally posted by Chris-Stephens  

Think of all the horse hair in violin bows!

Horses aren't eagles, and hair isn't feathers.
Horse hair is cut for many reasons, aesthetic, hygenic, etc..
Try to pluck any bird's feather, you'll see lots of pain and blood at the end. Cutting horse hair isn't the same.
Regarding skins and bones.. they are usually, if not all, goat skin and cow horn/bone that is salvaged after slaughter for food.

As I said, it is very stupid to have to argue about something like this and try to prove high standards of "manners" behind it.

To me, case is closed.

At least if someone lands on this page in the future looking for an eagle risha, they'll also read my words and hopefully make the right decision.
--
EDIT:
Just curious, would our eagle feather harvester/merchant be able to reveal his identity in front of an educated audience, say at a university, scientific institution, or YouTube, and speak about his methods of obtaining these feathers and why an oud player should use them instead of other rishas? I highly doubt that.

Oud.Proff - 4-17-2018 at 03:31 AM

Oudistan,

The ouds you're playing are mostly glued using hide glue (that comes from animals; DEAD animals). Some people may (and DO) argue and debate that it is immoral to kill animals for food, you know that, right? Going by the same - loosing - token you brought up, this could also endanger the lives of those animals by over-killing them, necessarily or unnecessarily ! Pharmaceutical companies use gelatin (coming from animals !) to make gel-caps and deliver medications. Surgical sutures (absorbable cat-gut) have been long used in human therapy. Cardiac (heart) valves in states of heart failures are still being extensively used. Animal models (in research) are being used.

Are you really convinced with your superficial justification of the horse hair use (which could be also abused !), if immorality kicks in?? I'll tell you something: mohair goats (for example) are only bred to produce newborns, that live very shortly and are slaughtered at a very young age (babies; also called kids - ironically enough!) for the purpose of harvesting the good quality hair coat sold for the fine textile industry. Similar examples go on and on and on....... I'm not saying any of this is right/wrong. The bottom line, we're using fell-off feathers with the fate of decaying/eroding on/in the ground without any potential benefit or value. No birds/eagles are being harmed.

Interestingly, you've given yourself the right to kill animals for food, take your medicine in the form of gel-caps, use their produced/rendered hide-glue to make/play ouds, eat marshmallow...... but not use their "naturally falling by-products" (the feathers) to be successfully recycled into something beautiful? keeping in mind the whole process is highly monitored and quite limited! So, the way I see it, your stance is nothing but a disgusting (I'm only returning the dirty ball to your court) form of double standards that falls more into a state of "hypocrisy" (not hereticism !)

Yes, you've irritated not only many members of this forum (who showed interest in the eagle risha), and myself providing it, but also other oudists living out there who have a similar interest, and even passed away oudists (Munir Bashir, Farid Atrash, Wadee' Safi, Abdel Wahab, Mohmmad Moogy, and many other) as well, with your disrespectful choice of wording.

The issue of morality, and where/how one can draw the distinctive line is never simple nor a clear cut in many cases. Although everyone is entitled to share his/her opinion, no one is entitled to accuse others of misconduct and be judgmental, haphazardly. That's why your manners are at stake.

Get a life, drama queen !

Sorry, but I can't respect disrespectful behavior.

Oudistan - 4-17-2018 at 05:14 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Oud.Proff  
Oudistan,

The ouds you're playing are mostly glued using hide glue (that comes from animals; DEAD animals)...
Pharmaceutical companies use gelatin (coming from animals !) to make gel-caps and deliver medications...
Surgical sutures...
Cardiac (heart) valves in states of heart failures are still being extensively used..


Equating necessities like food and medicine with an oud risha made of endangered birds' feathers... I'm done :)

I do have a life Mr. OudProff, and a very good one which doesn't push me to sell feathers for a living.

Oud.Proff - 4-17-2018 at 12:18 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Oudistan  

I can pluck my oud strings with a piece of glass and call it "unique".


This says a lot about your taste.
Quote: Originally posted by Oudistan  

I do have a life Mr. OudProff, and a very good one which doesn't push me to sell feathers for a living.


"Having a life" doesn't go along with watching other's work and efforts with envy :) Just had a look at one of your online oud-selling sites, and had an idea about your delimma of being around poor quality ouds..... so, I now know where you're coming from.

I'm proud that this "passion" of mine has a positive influence on highly respected oudists out there. Try to live with that :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtXI5PdNROQ
https://instagram.com/p/BSqN6b-F9B-/
https://instagram.com/p/BWfWZJ6l3o9/
https://instagram.com/p/BUnVyp3l0N5/

Over the past many years here for me in the forum, I never come to meeting such a personality, and having to go into rhetoric. But hey, live to tell.

Music has a great positive impact on the soul, unless.......!

Oudistan - 4-17-2018 at 12:53 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Oud.Proff  

Just had a look at one of your online oud-selling sites, and had an idea about your delimma of being around poor quality ouds..... so, I now know where you're coming from.


I don't have any oud-selling sites :)

OudProff, people aren't judged by the quality of instruments they carry nor are they judged by how well they play their ouds.

People are judged by their morals, they character, and making a living in a decent, legal and respectable way.

I do own a variety of ouds, from Bahrain's and Kuwait's best to a Sabsaby walnut oud and an Indian Rosewood by Yildirim currently being made. ;)

The more you respond, the deeper the hole becomes and the worse you look in front of others.

As I mentioned in a previous post, you had great success with your oud DVDs and served the community when those DVDs were much needed.

OudProff, the mere fact that you chose to sell these feathers and the way you hopelessly tried to defend and whitewash this whole issue is going to cause a lot of damage to your reputation in front of the many educated members on these forums and others who will land on this page in the future. You don't need to do this to yourself.

Posting videos of oud players using these feathers means nothing.
We all know Naseer Shamma never ordered your "rishas", you provided the risha to him and asked him to test it while filming.
You live in close proximity to Tariq Al-Jundi and know him closely and also provided the risha which he chose to use in his video, not because it sounds good but because "it looks cool".
Does that make harvesting eagle feathers right? It just doesn't!

None of them ordered or paid for those feathers, you simply gave them away for the purpose of having them recorded using your rishas and then using the videos for marketing on social media.
Those videos which you use in your social media accounts next to your ads about "Eagle Rishas" only cater to fools and desperate newbies whom you depend on to buy these feathers..

It's better for you to stop selling these feathers, and it's better to stop responding, it looked very bad having to resort to "comparing ouds" as an argument. :(

Good luck with your feather harvesting business, and good luck in your life..

I really feel very sorry for you.

Oud.Proff - 4-17-2018 at 03:28 PM

Well well, Oudistan!

Never had such a twisted argument since KG....how old are you, really?!

You are LYING again man, shame on you :(

You assume that I sent those Rishas for free, for propagandist purposes?!! And even worse for you, you LIE even bigger by saying “we all know that”?? Oh boy, you really have some serious issues, and likely need help.

With the exception of one, the Rishas were ALL ordered and sold to those respected oudists (and many other respected big names). Most importantly, most of the respected aforementioned names even ordered more than a dozen rishas, which means they’re NOT using them for “style show off” as you lie/assume/pretend to know all but rather they appreciate the uniquely positive feel of the eagle rishas. I did send some as gifts to other dear friends, who are highly professional and very famous. FYI, they loved them too :)

And again, you’re trying another dirty lousy maneuver of indulging respected oud makers (my friends BTW), to defend yourself. Leave them out of this, everyone knows what I’m talking about very well.

Feel sorry for yourself, for being judge-“mental” and envious. Really again, work on your manners !

It’s crazy how one like yourself (who clearly has no sense of basic biology, attempts to poorly indulge/lecture on conservation biology, something I spent my “life” doing, and am quite well known in the scientific community). Several friends here in the forum who know me very closely are laughing hard at you BTW. This is not the place to present CVs, just hoping you show “some” respect to yourself, quit the ugly hypocrisy and start realizing what you put yourself into, falsely/unjustifiably claiming good morals and animal welfare to demonize this simple clean story.

Oudistan - 4-18-2018 at 04:34 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Oud.Proff  

falsely/unjustifiably claiming good morals and animal welfare to demonize this simple clean story.


Let's get back to this CLEAN STORY of yours.. OudProff! :)

1. In this thread, you stated to have learned about this "natural eagle growth process" of shedding/plucking off their feathers as a biologist attending a scientific conference in South Africa.
But in a different thread you stated you were on a business trip and ACCIDENTALLY came across an "african eagle molting zone"!
(Ref: http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=17120)

So, which one is it OudProff??
Did you learn about this in a scientific conference
OR ACCIDENTALLY came across a molting zone?!! GET YOUR STORY STRAIGHT!

2. Also, a few days ago you mentioned that this CLEAN STORY of yours happened "a few years back"..
While in your post, which wasn't too long ago (5-17-2017), you stated that this happened "several months ago".
Quote: Originally posted by Oud.Proff  

While attending a scientific conference (for biologists; me included :cool: ) in South Africa few years back, I came across a very interesting story in what's been called back then as the "Bachelors' Molting Zone".
Quote: Originally posted by Oud.Proff  
Several months ago, I've been to South Africa in a business trip. Accidentally, I came across what's known as the "African eagle molting zone".


YOUR INCONSISTENCIES ALONE PROVE THAT YOU ARE A LYING EAGLE POACHER!

THOSE BIRDS WERE/ARE BEING KILLED FOR THEIR FEATHERS EITHER BY YOU PERSONALLY
OR BY PAYING SOMEONE TO DO IT FOR YOU AND YOU'RE MAKING MONEY OFF OF IT.

All that contradicting BS you start your posts with is just A COVER to imply that you obtained the feathers "from the ground" because
you KNOW that the first thing any person presented with eagle feathers would do is QUESTION HOW YOU OBTAINED THEM!
Also, all of that "scientific" BS you used earlier in this thread has no truth to it whatsoever except in very minor points.
You made all that up in your sick and twisted mind to whitewash your blood-stained hands.

Quote: Originally posted by Oud.Proff  

Yes, it DOES get bloody and ugly, as you can imagine.


WE DON'T NEED TO IMAGINE, WE SEE IT VERY CLEARLY, OUDPROFF!

I AM KINDLY ASKING ALL MEMBERS OF THESE FORUMS, AND EVERYONE READING THESE WORDS TO
NOT BUY THOSE FEATHERS AND NOT PARTICIPATE IN THIS DIRTY, UNETHICAL, AND ILLEGAL BLACK-MARKET BUSINESS.

We do not need eagle feathers to play our ouds and we certainly do not want to participate in ILLEGAL ACTIVITY.

EDIT:
I have both pages of this thread, and your other thread saved.
I will present them to Naseer this summer on my trip to Cairo.

You never even cared for those "friends" of yours and how they'd look in front of the educated people around the world who might wonder what those feathers are and later discover that they're feathers of endangered birds.. You don't care, you just want your friggin' $80 feather!

I will be seeing Naseer and other players soon at the Arabic Oud House and will speak to them about this. I'm sure they would never use those rishas, but I'll raise awareness about the potential impact of using these feathers on the reputation of any aspiring oud player around the world.
I will ask them to educate and warn their students about participating in the use of those feathers -whether those you sell or any other who might copy what your doing- and to never be recorded using them to preserve their image in front of the world and insure their success isn't jeopardized at any point in their careers, wherever in the world they go. Let alone preventing potential legal complications or fines over carrying eagle feathers into U.S/Canada/UK airports. You obviously don't give a damn about the possibility of any of that happening to anyone, you have no idea how serious what you're doing is.

To the mods, please keep these posts alive so that others can see how much this thread has exposed.

Oud.Proff - 4-18-2018 at 12:44 PM

Oudistan, you're crazy man !

1. In this thread, you stated to have learned about this "natural eagle growth process" of shedding/plucking off their feathers as a biologist attending a scientific conference in South Africa. [color=Red]But in a different thread you stated you were on a business trip and ACCIDENTALLY came across an "african eagle molting zone"! So, which one is it OudProff??
It's BOTH !
In practical science, there's something known as the "rendering business", which works on "recycling" animal waste/byproduct into another form of usable/consumable form to people or even other animals. An example, is getting gelatin from animal bones to make edible marshmallows. This is a clear thick-headed analysis and lack of common sense on your part here, can't you see it?

2. Also, a few days ago you mentioned that this CLEAN STORY of yours happened "a few years back".. While in your post, which wasn't too long ago (5-17-2017), you stated that this happened "several months ago". YOUR INCONSISTENCIES ALONE PROVE THAT YOU ARE A LYING EAGLE POACHER!
I'm hoping again, that moderators do something about those ugly words.
You know, if you were somewhere else (say in the US), your posts would be a real gift from you to me (a winning lawsuit on my part; dragging you to court), to teach you a real life lesson and teach you how irresponsible words would fire back heavily on you ! But, you probably feel safe hiding somewhere in the mountains of Tora Bora !

THOSE BIRDS WERE/ARE BEING KILLED FOR THEIR FEATHERS EITHER BY YOU PERSONALLY OR BY PAYING SOMEONE TO DO IT FOR YOU AND YOU'RE MAKING MONEY OFF OF IT. Yes, it DOES get bloody and ugly, as you can imagine. WE DON'T NEED TO IMAGINE, WE SEE IT VERY CLEARLY, OUDPROFF!
Thick-headed again ! The eagles pluck their feathers naturally, by themselves, in a natural life-changing process ! Many many other birds do this you idiot, ostriches, laying hens, American golden eagles, Japanese quails, European starlings.....etc. !
Although I'm not expecting a reasonable answer from you (looking back at your poor judgment and lack of comprehension/coherence), would it make a difference to you if the feathers are just left on the ground decaying?

You never even cared for those "friends" of yours and how they'd look in front of the educated people around the world who might wonder what those feathers are and later discover that they're feathers of endangered birds.. You don't care, you just want your friggin' $80 feather!
On the total contrary, some of those friends have asked me to deliberately state on their behalf that they're using eagle rishas as their official choice of oud risha! But, out of respect to their private lives, I'm not going to pinpoint who they are (although it's almost obvious from the posts/videos) Try to live with that.

To the mods, please keep these posts alive so that others can see how much this thread has exposed!
You're only exposing yourself !
The case IS indeed simple and CLEAN, as everyone can see after this extensive explanation. You're in real self-denial Oudistan.

Oudistan - 4-18-2018 at 02:43 PM

OudProff, you have been saying nothing but:

- False "scientific" cover-ups.
- Contradicting stories.
- No proof of legal harvesting of eagle feathers, because it's never legal.
- Comparing ouds as an argument.
- Claiming every oud player and their mother as friends.
- Claiming those oud players asked you to respond on their behalf (but you refused for their privacy?) is this a joke?
- Name calling.
- Comparing my country, which has been helping your country not starve to death for over half a century... to "Tora Bora". :shrug:

I understand, you have nothing to say and that's why I feel sorry for you.

Seriously though, consider me a potential customer. I would like to see proof of legal and ethical sourcing of those feathers.. Could you please provide that proof?
A contract with a well-known wildlife authority or a license to salvage protected birds' organs, do you have that?
It's the right of the customer to know, especially when dealing with items like eagle feathers!

You don't seem to understand how the law works and you don't seem to understand that there are international treaties regarding poaching and salvaging migratory birds' organs.

I'm a proud dual-citizen of the United States and Saudi Arabia (#1 falcon lovers) :buttrock:

As a US citizen, let me tell you that If you were in the US, you'd be LOCKED UP IN PRISON in a heartbeat and I'd be probably thanked by conservation agencies for my good work in point you out.

Had you had any proof of ethical collection of those feathers, you wouldn't have needed to go through any of this embarrassment and would've shared something to prove your innocence. A contract, emails, etc.. But you don't have anything!

Since you brought up the laws of the U.S, let me tell you that I have collected everything I can about what you're doing and I will report you to U.S/Canadian authorities.

I think you're in Jordan now, but I'll give it a try! Who knows, maybe you're in the U.S!

If you're not, the alphabets will be waiting for you there ;)

Oud.Proff - 4-18-2018 at 02:54 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Oudistan  
Oh, please don't talk about lawsuits and the laws in the USA about salvaging eagle parts.


If you were in the US, you'd be LOCKED UP IN PRISON! :))



I’m often in the US, as a citizen, why don’t you give it a try?
Going to jail in Tora Bora, however, is common for “heretics”, isn’t it?

Oudistan - 4-18-2018 at 03:02 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Oud.Proff  

I’m often in the US, as a citizen, why don’t you give it a try?


I will :)

Edit:
I'm already corresponding with a U.S government agency regarding your illegal activity via phone and email.
I have given them the links to all of your social media accounts, links to this thread (which I have saved in my PC, and the hosting company has as well), and screenshots of your ads and photos of the eagle feathers.

You obviously don't understand what you've gotten yourself into.

Try to do some research on the following:

"Under the current language of the eagle feather law, individuals of certifiable American Indian ancestry
enrolled in a federally recognized tribe are legally authorized to obtain eagle feathers.
Unauthorized persons found with an eagle or its parts in their possession can be fined up to $25,000."

"The Migratory Bird Treaty Act of 1918 also makes is illegal to kill, sell, buy, or possess any part of an alive or dead migratory bird."

This isn't horse hair or marshmallow as you seem to think, OudProff!
You will most likely end up in a federal agency's wanted list (FBI?) and be arrested the moment you step foot in the U.S or Canada.

GOOD LUCK ON YOUR NEXT TRIP!

Chris-Stephens - 4-18-2018 at 05:02 PM

Oudistan, I implore you to stop responding in this thread. You've made your point. We all get it that you're passionate and have stated your case against the use of eagle rishas. People can make up their own minds now. I think you're going too far with these legal threats against the OudProff.

ISN'T ANYONE MODDING THIS THREAD? IT'S GETTING OUT OF HAND HERE!

Oud.Proff - 4-19-2018 at 02:45 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Oudistan  

I will :)

Edit:
I'm already corresponding with a U.S government agency regarding your illegal activity via phone and email.
I have given them the links to all of your social media accounts, links to this thread (which I have saved in my PC, and the hosting company has as well), and screenshots of your ads and photos of the eagle feathers.

You obviously don't understand what you've gotten yourself into.

Try to do some research on the following:

"Under the current language of the eagle feather law, individuals of certifiable American Indian ancestry
enrolled in a federally recognized tribe are legally authorized to obtain eagle feathers.
Unauthorized persons found with an eagle or its parts in their possession can be fined up to $25,000."

"The Migratory Bird Treaty Act of 1918 also makes is illegal to kill, sell, buy, or possess any part of an alive or dead migratory bird."

This isn't horse hair or marshmallow as you seem to think, OudProff!
You will most likely end up in a federal agency's wanted list (FBI?) and be arrested the moment you step foot in the U.S or Canada.

GOOD LUCK ON YOUR NEXT TRIP!


Keep on making a fool of yourself :), and entertaining us with your hocus-pocus insanity.

Unlike your superficial approach of "skimming" or "googling" stuff, we do our homework and carry on things professionally, and legally.
Briefly, there are dozens of eagle breeds, and we know (scientifically and legally) what breed that is NOT migratory and NOT endangered to deal with (not the Bold nor the Golden Eagle).

I'm having fun seeing you fry up yourself with envy (not passion !).

Oudistan - 4-19-2018 at 02:52 AM

Since you're still insisting on responding, go ahead and respond to this.

I would like to see proof of legal and ethical sourcing of those feathers..
Could you please provide that proof? A contract with a well-known wildlife authority or a license to salvage protected birds' organs, do you have that?
It's the right of the customer to know, especially when dealing with items like eagle feathers!

Make everyone really laugh at me, and post something!

Oud.Proff - 4-19-2018 at 02:56 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Oudistan  
Since you're still insisting on responding, go ahead and respond to this.

I would like to see proof of legal and ethical sourcing of those feathers..
Could you please provide that proof? A contract with a well-known wildlife authority or a license to salvage protected birds' organs, do you have that?
It's the right of the customer to know, especially when dealing with items like eagle feathers!

Make everyone really laugh at me, and post something!


I'll keep you wondering, Oudistan :)

Oudistan - 4-19-2018 at 03:38 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Oud.Proff  

I'll keep you wondering, Oudistan :)


OudProff, you have been proven to be a liar and a poacher a long time ago. Nobody needs to wonder anymore!
Those eagles are being hunted for their feathers by you or at your request.

You have the chance to post proof of legal and ethical sourcing of those eagle feathers in front of everyone, redeem yourself if you can!
Everyone here has the right to know how you obtained those feathers.

Legally, I have a case number for my report, and it has been transferred from The United States Fish and Wildlife Service to "The Alphabets" for investigation.
Trust me, I will make sure you get arrested the moment you step foot in the U.S.
(You brought up the U.S law, remember?)

Oud.Proff - 4-19-2018 at 07:51 AM

Shall see Oudistan!

Mike - 4-19-2018 at 10:04 AM

This thread has run it's course, therefore I am officially closing it.

I am no expert on the topic, but conducting an extremely quick google search it was pretty easy to find quite clearly the following information from the The US Fish and Wildlife Service:

"The US Fish and Wildlife Service does not allow for the sale of eagle feathers, therefore a website such as this would not be permissible in the US. In addition, the purchase of eagle feathers is prohibited regardless of the origin of the feathers."

Also, the following:

As far as receiving feathers from other countries, you would need to find out about Cites (pronounced SIGHT-eees) Permits and laws from the US Fish and Wildlife Service.

Oudistan and Oud.Proff...if you feel the need...please conduct your dialogue away from the forums.

Thank you.