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Designing a Golden Mean based oud

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WFBustard - 6-6-2009 at 04:29 PM

I really enjoy the concept of this thread. Great graphics, planning and execution.
I was wondering if the Golden Mean idea is to continue into other areas of the design
- such as the neck profile(for example it could be used to determine -
fingerboard radius and neck contour etc). Decoration, peg shape...?

Ararat66 - 6-7-2009 at 01:03 PM

Hi Alami

I'm still watching this one - really fascinating. You are a clever and exploratory person - what is your profession when you aren not ouding?

Cheers

Leon

Multi Kulti - 6-7-2009 at 01:09 PM

I was just searching in internet various stuff and i found this one...Alami have you ever seen this instrument? It seems to be a Golden Mean Lavta (it is called a Nautilavta actually) and i think the result is succesfull ..

the link http://www.uweb.ucsb.edu/~ederer/misc/instruments/instruments.html (scroll down in the middle of the page)

Nikos

Peyman - 6-7-2009 at 03:41 PM

Those instruments are photoshopped. The idea is based on the Dreadnautilus guitars which used the ratios found in Nautilus shells (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nautilus) for the body. It's neat that these natural ratios are aesthetically pleasing to the human eye. I think Alami's oud will be neat!

Oud Freak - 6-13-2009 at 02:33 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Peyman

Those instruments are photoshopped. The idea is based on the Dreadnautilus guitars which used the ratios found in Nautilus shells (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nautilus) for the body. It's neat that these natural ratios are aesthetically pleasing to the human eye. I think Alami's oud will be neat!

It will certainly be neat, the design by ALAMI seems great and Fadi Matta's touch is impeccable with no doubt!

ALAMI - 7-10-2009 at 03:08 AM

WF, The Fibonacci spiral is reflected in the pegbox design,
The Hole size is in a volumic golden mean ratio relative to the volume of the bowl, it resulted in a rather smaller than modern oud hole (10 cm)
the fingerboard and bridge are regular oud design.

Leon, while not ouding, which is most of the time lately, I am involved in the creation of virtual images and visual effects that end on big or small screen, I have an engineering background (from long ago..)

The Golden mean has long been used in instruments making, this experimental project is an attempt to explore how this ratio can reflect in a oud design. Aesthetically, I like the design but on the sound side, I believe that no one can predict it before actually making the oud.

Fadi is putting a lot of time and effort in this task.
The mold was corrected to the exact dimensions and the ribs shapes were decided and tested as well as the neck and tail blocks final shapes, They will be big at start but will be internally trimmed and made thin and light once the bowl done.
the attached photos are 3 weeks old (I was away for a while) and more work-in-progress photos will follow soon.

msimon - 7-10-2009 at 06:49 PM

It's looking great!!!
Congratulations,
MS

ALAMI - 7-11-2009 at 01:46 AM

Finally, the oud is becoming a reality.
It is amazing to see an idea becoming real.
Fadi is doing an amazing work, I'll let the picture talk:

The bowl was the big challenge, small changes were done to the original curvature to accomodate what would wood "accept" to do.
The 21 ribs were all bent dry and fit.

ALAMI - 7-11-2009 at 01:48 AM

The neck block was done from 2 pieces and trimmed thin after

ALAMI - 7-11-2009 at 01:52 AM

The "Fibonacci" pegbox looks very sexy, hope that it wont cause a problem with the string. I think that the backwards curve can create a slight stress compensation to the the strings tension.

ALAMI - 7-11-2009 at 01:56 AM

From virtual 3D design to real oud,
I just like these pictures so I am posting them, after all we all love oud pictures, don't we ?

[file]10151[/file] [file]10153[/file] [file]10155[/file]

ALAMI - 7-11-2009 at 01:59 AM

and finally a photo of Fadi with the oud, you can imagine how grateful I feel to this fine luthier who's also a kind and modest man.

jdowning - 7-11-2009 at 03:13 AM

Congratulations ALAMI! Fantastic workmanship by Fadi. Very impressive.

katakofka - 7-11-2009 at 03:51 AM

Fantastic ! Please more pictures Alami.

Yaron Naor - 7-11-2009 at 11:11 AM

Fantastic work!

Peyman - 7-11-2009 at 02:27 PM

Off the charts! This is really cool. Can't wait for the end results.

Andy - 7-11-2009 at 04:27 PM

This is SO beautiful, what imagination and to put it into the real thing.

paulO - 7-11-2009 at 06:36 PM

Dude..way to be patient ! This is too wild. Thanks for the updates and the huge amounts of persistence.

Regards..Paul

Melbourne - 7-11-2009 at 08:10 PM

Amazing ALAMI!

Definitely belongs in an oud museum. Together with jdowning's work. Good to see some curious minds and people with enough courage to push the boundaries

And definitely good to see Ustez Fadi at work!

oudipoet - 7-11-2009 at 09:21 PM

dear alami i ve been fallowing your idea and design since the begining and i am happy to see the results your oud looks very nice in curious if i may say i can not wait to hear how it s going to sound please keep us inform.

FastForward - 7-11-2009 at 11:57 PM

This has been interesting from the beginning and really happy to see all the progress made.

Mabrook and send us a sound sample one its completely ready.

msimon - 7-12-2009 at 12:28 AM

Wow! I didn't believe it could come out nearly as close to the original CAD as it did. It really is an impressive work of art, and I can't wait to hear it! Congratulations!
MS

Ararat66 - 7-12-2009 at 03:17 AM

Fabulous geometry - can't wait to hear the sound - congratulation to both of you.

Waiting patiently

Leon

Reda Aouad - 7-12-2009 at 07:16 AM

Congratulations Alami! It's a great idea.. and amazing to see that it's being really tested. Well done.
We will be waiting for the final result

Fadi's work is perfectly impeccable!

I just want to ask you why is the pegbox designed this way? Almost all the strings will be touching several pegs, which is something usually avoided - this is why the pegbox is S-shaped.

ALAMI - 7-12-2009 at 09:31 AM

This thread was started almost 2 years ago.
It was a simple, Sunday morning, experimental idea, the one that it is easy to neglect or forget once one is caught again by work and all the things of life.

But this idea was posted here from the start and on these boards it grew up, was kept alive and transformed by the members' comments, suggestions, encouragement and help.
Actually, investigating asymetry was triggered by a comment from Leon, the mold was was "copied" from John who gave me a lot of invaluable advice on board and off board, thanks John.

The project stopped for a while after I found the mold errors, I nearly gave up.
But every now and then someone popped the thread back and I was motivated again.
In this project, the community was the key to perseverance.

The sound is of course the ultimate quest and a total mystery.
Beautiful geometry does not necessarily lead to beautiful sound.
The shell shape is common in nature and it has the magic of reproducing the sound of the sea.
we'll see.

Regarding the pegbox shape, I couldn't resist the spiral, it just looks right, we'll see how inconvenient, or not, it'll be.

'

Oud Freak - 7-12-2009 at 12:45 PM

Alami, alf mabrouk salaf! I saw the bowl at fadi's when it was stil on the mold with the last few ribs missing.
I was already impressed and he showed me two ribs before he placed them and glued them on the mold.
It was really astonishing how he could make these ribs with such precision and unusual curves!

Really impressive work and once more Matta did it!

Will it be a floating bridge or regular?

Don't you have any pics of earlier stages of work in progress???

Flash back

ALAMI - 7-13-2009 at 11:02 AM

OF, It is going to be a 7 course fixed bridge with Fadi's adjustable neck.

Here are some pictures of the Bowl making with the "twisted" ribs.
It is amazing what can skilled hand make with wood.

ALAMI - 7-13-2009 at 11:29 AM

The other pics:

mavrothis - 7-17-2009 at 04:48 AM

Wow! I'm speechless. I fell in love with this thread and all your ideas from the start, and now to see it all coming to fruit so masterfully is really incredible.

Congratulations! I can't wait to see the finished oud, and of course, hear what it will sound like.

Take care,

mavrothis

Oud Freak - 7-26-2009 at 12:36 AM

ALAMI,

Anything new regarding this new jewel? Don't forget to post pics of this beautifully finished instrument with such unusual curves and challenging realisation!

ALAMI - 7-31-2009 at 03:53 AM

Finally, the real thing !
Fadi did an amazing job.
Final weight 1100 grs, string length 60 cm, 7 courses,
For now, the oud is stringed with very low tension pyramids.

ALAMI - 7-31-2009 at 03:55 AM

Some more pics

Microber - 7-31-2009 at 03:59 AM

Wonderful.
On the third picture, the oud looks like a dancing girl.
Soooo...
Don't find a word.
Heureux l'homme qui la tiendra dans ses bras.

Robert

Jameel - 7-31-2009 at 06:50 AM

Wow. That's incredible work. Fadi is a seriously skilled luthier. Doing those twisted ribs is challenging enough, but then he upped the challenge and used alternating species. And he nailed it. What a motivating thread. Thanks Alami for posting this. Fantastic.

Abusaid - 7-31-2009 at 06:50 AM

It's really amazing!!!!!

Bravo aleykum.

:applause:

Reda Aouad - 7-31-2009 at 06:53 AM

The most beautiful piece of art I've ever seen !

AMAZING !

Jameel - 7-31-2009 at 08:38 AM

Is the rosette laser cut?

ALAMI - 7-31-2009 at 09:30 AM

Thank you guys and Robert is right, I also feel that this oud is a woman, everyone that sees her wants to touch those curves under neck, including women.(photographic proof attached ).

You're right Jameel, the rosette is laser cut, those machines are getting good, they are fast and don't burn the wood as they used to be and the resolution is high. After the huge work that Fadi had on the ribs, I wouldn't dare asking for a hand cut, look at those tiny holes in the center.
I myself used a CNC to cut the wood of the mold, in this project, computers were used a lot from concept to rosette, but the essence of the oud remains: the luthier, his hands, his talent, the glue and the wood all done the traditional way.

ALAMI - 7-31-2009 at 09:51 AM

...and no oud photo session would be complete without the label.
I have the photo of the label before being glued but I think it is nicer the usual-bad-quality-way, through the rosette.

I left the number blank for Fadi to fill and I was very touched and surprised when I discovered that Fadi chose to put "1" as the serial number along with his signature, after all it is just another oud he made among a 20 year long serie of great ouds. The fact that he numbered this oud 1 was his own simple way to say what he thinks and I appreciate... a lot.

And of course this label reveals my real name (even though Al Alami is my historical original family name)

Mahmoud

Oud Freak - 7-31-2009 at 10:56 AM

WOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!! ALF MABROUK!!! Despite me knowing Mr. Matta very well, he is always surprising and astonishing, REALLY INCREDIBLE!!!!

katakofka - 7-31-2009 at 11:25 AM

Piece of ART !!..Mabruuk Mahmoud
Are you willing to sell :cool:

how does it sound?

patheslip - 7-31-2009 at 11:27 AM

wow

theodoropoulos - 7-31-2009 at 12:15 PM

the most incredible and unbelieavable construction i have ever seen...
:bowdown:

there is no other on earth like you.
speechless...

theodoropoulos - 7-31-2009 at 12:28 PM

and as the sound concerns the φ golden rule ,with which Fibonacci is constructed,is the basis of every well balanced construction.All amphitheatric scenes ,are based on φ,so if an oud must sound excellent ,it should be based on φ.Our body has φ proportion,every thing on earth made by nature hides this golden rule.
so i am sure it sounds excellent.....

oudipoet - 7-31-2009 at 05:28 PM

it looks amazing alami i realy like the look

now pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee stop torchering us and lets hear this baby

paulO - 7-31-2009 at 06:13 PM

Uh...did you ever notice the thing looks kinda unbalanced and the pegbox looks really wierd

Okay..what I meant was:

1. Amazing design work.
2. Fantastic attention to detail.
3. Beautiful choice of materials, very elegant and understated.
4. Incredible craftsmanship from Fadi and yourself as well !
Thanks for sharing this project, and as I'd said in a previous post -- way to stick with it till it's done !!!

Best Regards..Paul

Peyman - 7-31-2009 at 08:55 PM

That has to be one of the coolest instruments ever designed made! Bravo to Mr. Fadi. :airguitar:

amazing

muthada - 8-1-2009 at 06:20 AM

amazing work man! :bowdown:

Yaron Naor - 8-1-2009 at 01:35 PM

Amazing design and art work building...!

Andy - 8-3-2009 at 11:18 AM

CONGRATULATIONS! Absolutely BEAUTIFUL! From every angle, inside, outside, right side up, upside down, front side, back side :applause:

this is a true winner & a 7 course too.
When will you build the next one?
How is it to hold when playing?

Jonathan - 8-3-2009 at 01:44 PM

Incredible. I can't wait to hear it.

corridoio - 8-3-2009 at 03:39 PM

very beautiful Alami!
I'm happy this project has come to life!
Ale.

ALAMI - 8-4-2009 at 08:50 AM

Thanks to all for your kind words, coming from the most discerning oud community anywhere, it is a great reward...really.

A small idea turned out to be one of the most interesting adventures I ever had. Like many of you here, oud is something that we do in our corner for our own pleasure with none or very few to share with.
It feels good to be an amateur again.

The oud is now a week old, time to talk about what's is all about : the sound.

Before even the oud was stringed the bowl had a humming sound, when you put your ear over the hole you can hear like a breathing sound, not the sea sound you hear in a shell but something that's goes up and down.

Fadi wanted to string the oud in low tension for the first 3 months, so we used a set of low tension Pyramid Lute strings that Jameel fixed me for the old 1892 Arja oud.

The first weired thing we noticed is that if 2 strings are not in absolute perfect unisson, I mean even if extremely slightly, the kind of difference we usually consider OK, that even a regular tuner considers OK, the intonation is terribly wrong, it is something really difficult to explain in words.
And when they are in perfect unisson the loudness jumps, you can almost tune the second string only by spotting the loudness. It is something that we have on the oud and that oudists know but on this oud it is very accentuated.

The other thing is the sustain, I want your opinions guys on this, can sustain be too much ?

May be better to start hearing,
My friend Ziad Ahmadieh passed by today, we did a recording session, it is a small studio built for voice over recording.
The recording was done on Protools using an U87I Neuman (condenser) on the left channel and a Pulsar Maudio (dynamic) on the right channel. These are the raw files played by Ziad, as is no treatment or effects.

I am posting the short takes (mp3 128) until I fix a link for the bigger files.

ALAMI - 8-4-2009 at 09:03 AM

3 more takes in a zip file

HERE

(better to right click and choose "save link as")

Reda Aouad - 8-4-2009 at 09:04 AM

It is clear that it is still a new-born oud.. but great sound !! Rich, powerful and balanced.

Ziad used to be my music teacher at school when I was very young.. I like his style. Very good taqasims.

Regarding the sound.. the sustain is very good.. not in excess at all. But the studio gives maybe a bit dull sound.. very dry. But it is great! I would love to listen to it in a few months.

I want to ask you as well.. did you change the mics distance between the recordings? In the first the mics seem to be far.. in the last too close.. I felt the second recording had the best setup, with a distance in between the other two recordings. The stereo feeling is also very nice.

Congratulations one more time

Reda Aouad - 8-4-2009 at 09:08 AM

I was talking about the first 3 recordings you uploaded in my last post.

Concerning the second batch of recordings.. the difference in intonation is indeed accentuated as you described.

Reda Aouad - 8-4-2009 at 09:09 AM

I see what you mean by excess sustain. I notice it more in the second group of recordings. But I like it

katakofka - 8-4-2009 at 01:20 PM

great sound I love it. When you put higher tension strings it should give more powerful sound. About sustain I won't worry, it's a part of the rich sound of Fadi's oud. This oud is a great success, sound and design. Felicitation
Did ziad like it?

Oud Freak - 8-5-2009 at 04:38 AM

kata, the great sound richness of the sound of a matta oud can only partially transmitted in recordings. Ntg better than feeling the instrument's vibrations while playing it or hearing it live. I might b exaggerating but i think am right. Cheers

Oud Freak - 8-12-2009 at 09:48 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Jameel

Wow. That's incredible work. Fadi is a seriously skilled luthier. Doing those twisted ribs is challenging enough, but then he upped the challenge and used alternating species. And he nailed it. What a motivating thread. Thanks Alami for posting this. Fantastic.

Dear Jameel ("the beauty maker"),Thank you for your active participation and your positive comment on this work. Some other members should have reacted and commented at least about the "finished product" (designed by Alami "the brain" and made by F.Matta "the magician"). Surprisingly, no sign of life but their silence speaks for itself

. I also have a request: please make more of your marvelously finished ouds and show them to us. Such a treat for the eye (wish to try them as a treat for the ear)! All the best! Cheers! OF

Oud Freak - 8-12-2009 at 09:52 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Jameel

. I also have a request: please make more of your marvelously finished ouds and show them to us. Such a treat for the eye (wish to try them as a treat for the ear)! All the best! Cheers! OF

Brian Prunka - 8-13-2009 at 06:05 AM

Amazing work. Beautiful in looks and sound. Mabrouk!

francis - 8-13-2009 at 08:27 AM

Quel résultat!!! ( et quel beau projet)
Tout est superbe , look d'enfer et le son est au niveau!
Bravo!

Reda Aouad - 8-14-2009 at 07:22 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Oud Freak

Quote: Originally posted by Jameel

. I also have a request: please make more of your marvelously finished ouds and show them to us. Such a treat for the eye (wish to try them as a treat for the ear)! All the best! Cheers! OF

With all my respects to most luthiers, Fadi is THE most skilled. Has has proven it once again in this project, as a challenge for himself and the other luthiers around the world. I don't mean to be rude at all, and I concur on the Freak's statement that Jameel is indeed the beauty maker, his 2005 oud being one of the most beautiful ouds I've seen http://www.khalafoud.com/khalafoud2005.htm , and others do great jobs as well. But Fadi has indeed increased the heat and I think that other luthiers should now step up to the challenge, in oud design and building.

I invite all members to tell about their impression about this project. Don't stand still. The least you can do is congratulate Alami for his marvelous design and Matta for his extreme craftsmanship. A machine twisting the ribs couldn't do a better job or give a better finishing to this oud. I am still astonished every time I look to the pictures..

Once again.. congratulations to both Alami and Fadi Matta for this one-of-a kind project.

Ararat66 - 8-14-2009 at 08:11 AM

Hi Alami

It's great to see this at last - and most of all to hear it. I think it is a wonderful creation, your friend is an amazing player btw, and Fadi Matta an awesome luthier (I am very tempted!!).

The sound files, particularly 1,2 & 3 are really interesting because sure it is unmustakenly an oud but the sound is really 'fine grained' for want of a better description, very very beautiful sound and unusual to my ears, it sounds very refined, I can imagine its like a thoroughbred so tuning has to be spot on, I think that's what you have.

I love it, can't wait to hear it open up.

Many congratulations, brilliant work by all.

Cheers

Leon

arsene - 8-17-2009 at 03:43 AM

Wow, I just stumbled on this thread today and just abandoned all other activities and read it in one go.......

My head is seriously spinning, this is one of the most amazing things oud I have ever witnessed!!! Ever!!

As I was progressing through the thread I couldn't even imagine that at the end I would be able to hear it, and there it is, mp3 files ready for me to download! :P

I will join the rest and say congratulations for such an amazing work, I wish I could play it right now!!!!

I am too very curious about the sound in a few months or so!

Ararat66 - 8-17-2009 at 04:02 AM

What do you reckon to the sound Arsene?? pretty special I think, very refined.

Leon

Luttgutt - 8-17-2009 at 07:42 AM

Unbelievably Beautiful
And I love the sound!!

:xtreme:

Well done Alami and Fadi :bowdown:

Alf Mabrouk Alami

arsene - 8-17-2009 at 08:13 AM

Leon, I would say very defined, crisp & clear and more words like that with which we try to describe sound... overall balanced I guess... Let's see how it opens up, given the design and mr. Matta's track record, i'd put my money on a sweet revelation of divine aural bliss

Ararat66 - 8-17-2009 at 11:12 AM

'Sweet revelation of divine aural bliss', didn't they support Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young years ago

Leon

mavrothis - 8-17-2009 at 11:31 AM

Really beautiful sound, in addition to being a beautiful instrument!

Congratulations!

mavrothis

ALAMI - 8-17-2009 at 02:02 PM

Thanks to all for your kind words.
OF and Reda (or anyone passing by Beirut) just drop me a u2u or a mail when you're around and you can do a test drive.

I am delighted that you like the sound guys and am also curious to see how it would develop, I think that I can already feel that the oud is a bit less touchy and is a bit more forgiving
regarding the absolut perfect unisson tuning and precision. .
Have anyone felt that some ouds are more forgiving than the others when it comes to fingers precision ?

I'd like to have a thought for a great artist and designer: Mr Les Paul who passed away a few days ago, His Gibson is one of the greatest instruments ever designed. I can spend hours just looking at it.

Another thought, I hope that we will never have a "Best" luthier or a "best" design or we will all end up with the same oud and same sound, it would be a boring oud world. Challenge is not important, curiosity is. Of course this oud would have stayed on paper without a master luthier like Fadi, when Fadi saw the plans and the mold for the first time, I immediately felt that his curiosity was triggered, he spent minutes looking silently to the 3D renders and the plans, he was already building the oud in his head.

I love projects like the "medieval oud" by John and the other experimental turkish oud being built by Yaron or the older projects done by Jameel.
Sometimes professionals are so taken into their work that when they have free time they are reluctant to spend it experimenting, I know it by personal experience. Amateurs (talking about myself) and outsiders who are not full time luthiers can benefit the professional world by triggering curiosity.

I have 9 ouds and at least 5 of them are "best" into something: the "old" Matta design is the loudest, the 1892 five course Arja is the purest, the Der Bedrossian is a beauty queen, the Ghadban is the best overall, Nazih is also a great master and a very curious guy.

BTW the oud was selected in an international design contest, will let you know if it makes it to the finals.

I've received many "commercial" questions. This design (which is now legally protected) is radically unusual and we don't know if the structure will hold or if the face will deform, there is a lot of assymetry that can generate off axis stress, this oud needs time. It would be unwise to make it commercially available at this stage.It may or it may not become available in the future, no decision is taken.

I am already thinking of how the design can be improved. Pure geometry, intuition and traditonal making did a great job on the first model, improvements will need a lot of research.

...to be continued

arsene - 8-17-2009 at 02:40 PM

well, needless to say Alami, you would do us great pleasure and honor by keeping us posted on this marvellous adventure! And yes, every instrument - be it traditional or mind-boggling innovative - if made with passion is 'the best ever made'

And Leon, I think that's what CSNY were feeling after a couple of, er, let's say brainstorming sessions.

*EDIT* I'll be in Cyprus from Thursday onwards and I suddenly realised thats not so far from Beirut!!!! I'll let you know if i'm tempted :rolleyes:

Oud Freak - 8-18-2009 at 04:23 AM

Agreed with Alami that there is nothing absolute. Each maker has his own strengths and weaknesses. I also agree with Reda about matta. I wonder who else could have done such a wonderful job. It is true that ur floating Matta is full power but I wouldn't own it. The model per se and its sound are not my cup of tea. However, for me Matta remains the boss, despite the fact he insisted on a specific model for a long period. Now his new ouds are linking between power, loudness and rich traditional oriental sound: full option! I also like ghadban'sproduction and flexibility from 2006 till today. I always say to these two luthiers that I lam glad they do not imitate each other, bcz they wouldn't b interesting if they do so. Well, enough for today! OF

Mike - 8-19-2009 at 09:04 AM

Just catching up with forums today. Been a little pre occupied lately. Anyway, great pictures, lovely oud, and beautiful sound. Alf mabrouk Alami! What an incredible project by an innovative guy and an extremely talented luthier.

ALAMI - 8-20-2009 at 01:41 AM

Dear Mike,

I would like to thank you for this peaceful place you created for all of us, this community is so inspiring, helpful and well informed that many projects, including this one, wouldn't have gone far without the motivation and the inspiration that the forums create.

Greg - 8-21-2009 at 02:21 AM

Dear Alami,

What a treat to see such an innovative idea come to fruition in such a satisfying way. The result is an instrument of rare beauty and it is a credit to you and to Mr Matta.
This would have been an expensive project and I salute you for carrying it through to completion.

Warm regards,

Greg

Mike - 8-21-2009 at 07:19 AM

Dear Mahmoud,
You are too kind my friend. These forums are only as you say because of the QUALITY OF PEOPLE who post in them. To me that's what keeps them so alive and strong. Also, the instrument we all love and adore so much bonds us in a special way. It is only natural for there to be such a place for all of us to commune and enjoy each others' experiences with such an awesome instrument. So you all are what make the forums what they are buddy!
All the best,
Mike

ALAMI - 8-22-2009 at 01:03 AM

Mike, of course I agree with you my friend, someone had to do it and you did, so thank you.

Greg, I don't really know if I can say "expensive".
When I think of all the time and effort that Fadi put into finalizing the mold and building this oud, I really believe that he deserves more than the fees he charged, really.
And...if I think to bill myself the "R&D" human and workstation work time, then it would make a hell of a bill.... and then if I balance the equation by putting a value on the pleasure of finally holding this oud for real and the pleasure of reading the comments and the reactions and of hearing the sound... It would be probably the "cheapest" oud I've ever had.

Forgivness, sustain...

Luttgutt - 8-25-2009 at 08:55 AM

Mabrok again ALAMI!

I was sooo blinded by the beauty of your oud that I didn't read all the details. But now that I can see again...
here are a couple of thoughts...

1- can we have too much sustain?
YES! part of the idea with the western pick technique (guitar) was to reduse sustain (by using the arm to "stop" sustain).
But in traditionl oud music, sustain is welcome, and desired.
I have never heard "better" sustain on any oud before (and I have playd and heard many. I own 16 ouds and have playd on many more over the past 32 years). And I love the way your oud holds a beautiful
constant sustain.
And I think it would be just perfect to play acoustic in a church for example.
But my guessing is that it would be a big problem with microfon (at least a big chalange for the sound enginere.

2- about forgivness.
My experience is the following (please don't jump on me guys ; )
Forgivness does not have to do only with the oud, but the strings too! Actually, the combination of the strings and the oud. A oud can be more "forgiving" with some type of strings and not other!!

And some mathematics: when two strings are "almost" in tune (as a couple), the tone gets WORSE the CLOSER you get to the "perfect" tuning. ANd that is pure mathematics. When the peak of the to "waves" is too close, but not exact, the sound becomes really horrable (so it is actually better to have a less perfect tuning (in case you are not capable of getting a perfect one)!!
And the better the oud is, the worse the problem gets!

So actually, my experiance is that the BETTER the oud is, the LESS forgiving it is!!! But when you get the perfect tuning, the good oud gets MUCH louder because now the waves are in fase.

Good luck with the future development of your oud Alami. I totally fell in love with your project and your RESULT!!
:bounce:

ALAMI - 8-26-2009 at 02:03 AM

Thank you Luttgutt for your valuable comments, It seems logical to me that "forgivness" may be a combination of oud and strings, the old Istanbuli oud I have with its 63cm stringlength and with his gut strings is in fact very easy to tune and play.

It would be interesting if the relation between bowl geometry and sustain can be established I am now evaluating some tools ranging from finite elements simulation tools to accoustic analysis software, we'll see.

It is also interesting to experiment with microphone (s) settings and configurations.

Luttgutt - 8-27-2009 at 02:47 AM

I agree ALAMI, I think it is much easier to tune gut strings (even synthetic gut (aquila)). It might be the case that gut has a higher elastisity constant than nylon!??

Do you mean you want to find which geometric shape that gives MOST sustain? That is, are you seeking more sustain than what you already have?
Or do you mean something else by "relation between bowle and sustain"?

My guess is that the "logarithmic snail" that you have used gives you the longest sustain. But I think (guess) that the sound pins too (bracing) has to follow the Febonacci's sequence, both in width (distance between them) and hight (ratiowise). And that the bracing might be placed different from normal oud!

What do you think?

excentrik - 6-7-2012 at 01:35 AM

I was just searching the forums (I was being nostalgic) and remembered this thread-

---Been a while...

What an amazing oud indeed- ALAMI: you still out there bro? just wondering... AND I would like to explore the possibility of having one similar built for myself- lemme know- anyone

Tarik

fernandraynaud - 6-7-2012 at 02:06 AM

"AND I would like to explore the possibility of having one similar built for myself- lemme know- anyone"

That's what you get for hanging out here, bro ...

mavrothis - 6-7-2012 at 05:20 AM

Yes, being reminded of this thread by Tarik's post, and seeing and hearing this incredible oud, has convinced me I want one for myself too!

Oh boy...

ALAMI - 6-8-2012 at 04:00 AM

You know guys, this oud wouldn't have been done without the people here kicking my *ss.
Thanks Tarek for bringing it back and giving me some positive thoughts as we're drowned into horrible news lately, in this part of the world.

After 3 years of having the prototype done, I really don't mind if this model is produced, at very small volume however, I need to talk with Fadi Matta about this, it's been a while I haven't seen him.

I also would like to redo some recordings now and I would like to use the knowledgeable ears here to evaluate the sound evolution. The oud was well played.

Technically there are 2 things that I would like to experiment
A fixed bridge model with a different and lighter bracing
A floating bridge model

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