Mike's Oud Forums

Naseer Shamma New interview on aljazeera

aldokhi - 1-11-2008 at 10:38 PM

this is Naseer's latest interview on aljazeera dedicated to the plight of Iraqi refugees.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIFGb7aZERs


Aldokhi

SamirCanada - 1-12-2008 at 12:21 PM

thats craziness...
he didn't have to bring the furniture with him.
can he only play on his throne or something?

aldokhi - 1-12-2008 at 01:25 PM

I have notice that chair/throne in few interviews, I don't know what the deal with that chair. I agree with you SamirCanada it's getting to be a bit too much, I would not be surprised that next time it will be a table and a set of lamps or maybe candles!! isn't his playing style and oud enough for people to recognise him, and how much extra recognition this "special" chair is going to give him.

JamesOud - 1-12-2008 at 04:53 PM

Thats ridiculous, all he needs now is a crown and a ring for peopl to kiss.
How much bigger can a oud players ego get?
Can you imagine his oud case now, maybe Jameel should start manufacturing oud cases with a pocket that fits a chair or throne.
Although, I think he's a fantastic player, his 'throne' is too much. And it always annoyed me aswell, how when he played with a group he was always put on a higher stage to be above them rather than equal height.
The chair also looks out of place...he should just let his playing do the talking.

Throneless James.

Jason - 1-12-2008 at 08:07 PM

haha I cracked up when it first showed him sitting there in the throne.

From a logistics standpoint that has to be incredibly annoying trying to transport that thing everywhere. All that trouble for a.... chair?

gilgamesh - 1-12-2008 at 08:20 PM

Listen Fellas! N. Shamma is a King of oud, isnt' he?... So on what could we imagine a king who respects himself expect a throne? Playing oud on a arabic thoroughbred would not be very practical then on a throne is not a so bad idea!ciao
:airguitar:

Ronny Andersson - 1-13-2008 at 01:46 AM

well is not a Glenn Gould kind of chair.

Oud Freak - 1-13-2008 at 03:29 AM

He's allowed to have a throne and whatever he wants, but...
Despite his awesome playing, some humbleness wouldn't hurt.

dandana - 1-13-2008 at 03:31 AM

Hello guys,

With all my respect to all ur comments, let me say this:

i met this guy personnally and not once, if there's something to be said on humbleness i think that he's ought to be brought forward as an example.

i don't know what's the story of that chair, but if we had to make remarks on his personal lifestyle, let's dont forget the cause he's fighting for;

no one doubts about his proffessional skill, but this guy is having his place in our hearts for things far beyound that; standing for and supporting human causes, creating initiatives and using his "place" to move things is what gives him this place.

I don't know why he brings that chair/thrown with him to the interviews, maybe there's something more than a question of extra-recognition? i don't like to justify for others what they do... but i really think that the discussion should go in another direction.

accept my comments with sportivity, it's my humble point of view, no hard feelings.

iloveoud - 1-13-2008 at 05:59 AM

well i met this guy as well and what i could say is that he talks more than he plays just talking .
first he pretended to be in iraq during the second golf war which is not true since he was in tunisia .
then he came up with a strory as if saddam hussein was chasing him cauz munir basheer was too jalous ( was broadcast on lbc international) .
then another story as if he was in alameria after the bombing as a soldier ( again not true)
then he pretended to invent the 7 strings oud while marcel khalifa was playing on it since many years.
and then pretending to invent new modes .
and finally the throne .
i mean ok the guy is a sweet talker but when it gets over the music it shows how empty the music is.
i dont mean to be bad to mr chamma it s only a personal opinion .
more music less talking plz :)

iloveoud - 1-13-2008 at 06:02 AM

one last thing on the 2 last concerts of nesseer chamma in tunisia he prentended on the show in front of the audience that 2 of the pieces played were of his composition while they were muheddin haydar s pieces . the journalist who was a musicna asked about that at the end of the show and he said yea they r haydars but he arranged them.
yea right 1) coundn t he say that on the show and 2) i can assure you there were no arrangements done 100% haydar s copy.

dandana - 1-13-2008 at 11:09 AM

ok, that's ur point of view iloveoud and i won't comment because i dispose of no info about that. But i think that the most important for us people of this forum is to avoid bringing forth the personal aspects of artists and avoid to discuss artists' personal life because there would be a lot of disagreement, and besides it's not honest to talk about someone who's not present to defend himself and refute things. THat's why i said that the discussion had to take another direction, meaning discussing the artistic aspects of things. We will never be able to cover all those details otherwise.
Thanks

JamesOud - 1-13-2008 at 06:58 PM

Thats a big statement, "king of the oud", There have been oud players much better than him that have sat on chairs! Indian masters sit on the ground!
So he must be better than everyone else. He is actually human and that is definitely not a sign of humbleness. He would have though about it and got somebody to make it for him...
He should just play and stop getting involved in politics aswell. Its a just show to try and put the things he does in context. For instance his piece Almirrya, without its context would be just funny to hear the Helicopter and sirens, just showing off. And his one handed piece, he saids that he invented it for the disabled, what junk! Ive never seen a one handed person play the oud and they certainly wont start because of nasseer. Cut the crap and just play.
Anouar Brahem is quiet on stage, wears plain clothes and sits on a normal chair and he relays the emotion through the music, not politics and external junk. Shamma has lost a once fan...
Angry James.

charlie oud - 1-13-2008 at 07:30 PM

So much for the chair guys. He needs to sort out that awful buzzing on his oud !, also he is so intense and could learn a thing or two from oud proff or Hamza el din, relax a little, phrase his passages in a more laid back way. Sorry, he definately aint my king. Didnt get much out of wahwah pedal either !

charlie oud - 1-13-2008 at 07:51 PM

Plus, I support jamesoud in his view of one handed playing, a mate of mine saw the one handed stuff and I cannot repeat all of what he said but his closing words were "That guy belongs in a circus". I suppose the chair further serves to illustrate my mates comment.

gilgamesh - 1-14-2008 at 01:29 AM

This king gives me new ideas:
To improve my swing, why not trying to play a rocking chair?:rolleyes:
:airguitar:

JamesOud - 1-14-2008 at 03:25 AM

How about a massage chair for your vibrato?

Someone lost his bolts here...

Sidi - 1-14-2008 at 01:47 PM

Here's a prince by birth, and the real king of oud, performing on the throne every common Egyptian sat on at their local 9ahwa. He was a man who didn't need a carpenter's throne, he trusted in our hearts to carry his love and memory as long we live.

God bless Farido,

-S.M

revaldo29 - 1-14-2008 at 03:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by gilgamesh
This king gives me new ideas:
To improve my swing, why not trying to play a rocking chair?:rolleyes:
:airguitar:


:))

gilgamesh - 1-14-2008 at 04:20 PM

Hya Sidi!Many of us are are completely agree with you.Our Farido is The King, of all the times; No possible comparison . All the places where he sat are gold. We will never forget it
:airguitar:

dubai244 - 1-14-2008 at 09:41 PM

Hi Charlie oud & all,

Charlie, thanks for mentioning the buzzing sound from his oud. I noticed that and i thought it is just mic affect or some thing, but i saw the interview again and i heard the buzzing sound coming from his oud. It is really bad for a such great artist.

About the throne, I think the idea of the throne is to be different than the other players in oud world. They are so many great players in oud world but we perly hear about them and that because they are not different , nothing special about them.

It is not professional way to be known but the idea of throne is just to let people talk about it. To prove this point, that's why we have this discussions right now, it seem to me that it worked very well... !!

At the end, i must say that, regarless his personal life, He is great player and muscion writer and inventer.

Thanks

fyenix - 1-14-2008 at 10:30 PM

im 1001% with u dandana & dubai244 :bowdown: :xtreme:

charlie oud - 1-14-2008 at 11:42 PM

Upon reflection I would like to say that I hope my remarks have not offended followers of Naseer Shamma. My opinion is not important. Ive been a musician for 35years and occasionally it can be difficult to refrain from making a comment when I feel moved to do so. Love, peace, music, C. xxx

iloveoud - 1-15-2008 at 12:42 AM

well an artists exposes him self to the public when he goes on stage and it s impossible for him to avoid that. besides i never discussed his personal life ( like that he is married with a kid and he hides it wherever he goes ) heheh it s true though :) but i just talked about how this guy presents his music and that s part of his musical identity and character. sorry but i have to say that i feel literally disgusted by his music since i read heard or saw his interviews in mentioned above.
no offence for all his fans but i don t see what he really imporved in the way of playing his is just the continuation of a certain school the iraqi one . nothing special i have to say but again IT S A PERSONAL POINT OF VIEW THAT CAN BE THEORETICALLY DEBATED since aesthetic appreciation is something very relative and personal but everybody can agree on the technical aspect of the music ( by saying technical i don t mean just playing fast or being a virtuose but i mean the means of expression)

omazuz - 1-15-2008 at 01:24 AM

i saw the interview and oud playing of Naseer Shamma then Read yr comments- i agree and think he must separate his political opinions from his music- although i think its right to make statements through his music - it will make much more influence and will not make him less musician.
im a beginner(almost 2 years) and my ears r still developing- but the sound of his oud is not "complete"- something is missing (and i don't mean the buzzing which r sometimes normal and even ed colour to the sound)- maybe its the sound of the floating bridge oud ? i don't know for sure but i would suggest him to play a classic oud with regular bridge and i would dare say more profound and touching sound.
and the chair issue ? he looks ridiculous sitting on it -its higher then him and makes him look smaller but if he likes it let him enjoy it.

JamesOud - 1-15-2008 at 01:51 AM

I have officially been turned off this style of oud. I love and appreciate the music of the oud and most of its players, But I feel the oud is turning into a mishmash, an instrument foreign from its tradition...thank you Shamma!

Shamma played two pieces in row and they both sounded exactly the same. Its enough! Melodies are now swamped by chords and strumming and it doesnt sound like oud anymore...wheres is the emotion? and real tarab?
Its ok to use chords and ukele technique as an ornament now and then, but pieces are now dictated by it.
All the players that come from that Shamma school sound the same. Although I really like Hazem Shaheens playing, his toota piece was swamped by this chordal junk, whats wrong with the farido version? same when the young Abozekry plays, he is a clone of Shamma, where is personality and uniqueness. This is the problem with the school, a GREAT technique and a poor soul.
They have to go back to the basics and the sweetness of the oud and taqqasim. Simon Shaheen, Adel Salmeh, Munir Bashir, Jospeh Tawadros, Anouar Brahem all lead the way in fluent 'unswamped' real oud playing. They have a gentleness and sensitivity which says much more than Shammas pieces in the way of emotion and they dont have to talk half an hour before to make up some story to go with it. The Shamma school doesnt have this.
It sounds like he is fighting with the oud, instead of a beautiful natural flow in playing. I have seen him play some good pieces but recently its all mishmash. Farid is full of Tarab and emotion, Unfortunately the Shamma is over ruled by technique(and what a great technique) but a technique that is overdone and strangles the music. Im sorry if Ive upset anyone with my view, but does anyone out there share my opinion? and Im glad I can share my view.

Annoyed James

jazzchiss - 1-15-2008 at 02:51 AM

We shouldn't criticize the small obsessions of a great musician. For many musicians (even minor musicians like me) is very important the height and comfort of a chair. I remember when I was young I was asked to play the guitar on an university stage, it was a free concert and I wasn't very interested, I claimed I could only play comfortable in the sofa I had at home. They offered to carry my sofa and I had to play there!

I think this is not important, and plus that Shamma's throne looks to me more like a pliable chair, quite easy to carry.

We better discuss about the sound and the music. The sound of his (Yoroub?) oud is a bit dirty but this is more a style than a defect. Comparing Shamma with Farid is difficult because is not the same kind of music. Shamma is a great composer and Farid plays the same taqsim again and again, he's great but I can't listen to him more than once a year!

charlie oud - 1-15-2008 at 03:18 AM

James, I feel I know where you are coming from. The issues you raise have substance and you are certainly not alone with feelings of disillusionment. At the end of the day though, we have choices, who we choose to listen to; who we choose for inspiration; who we choose to learn from; what we choose to believe etc....This fundamental existential choice has been my saviour on many an occasion when my heart & soul feels disapointment. I like your reference to those maestros who can move us with thier touch & musicallity, they are never forgotten so long as we "choose" to remember them. Its difficult at times to be unaffected by others & maybe we need not appologise for upseting some oud player,s fans if the player in question has upset us?, my hope is that we see these debates as healthy, a stirring of passions around a beautiful instrument. Hope this helps in some small way.

MatthewW - 1-15-2008 at 03:46 AM

Greetings all- It's interesting to see how a discussion on Naseer's chair has evolved to include his playing technique and his 'school' of music; I guess it was bound to happen- a player like Naseer, no matter what anyone thinks of him, will always hold our attention and be a source of differening opinions.
I think James Oud presents a good argument, and highlights what some feel are a few of the differences between the 'old school' of oud playing where 'tarab' was perhaps more in abundance, Farid being the best example of this style, and the newer styles of playing, with a lot of flash, speed, chords, flamenco influences and so on. For me, the answer lies somewhere in between Farid and Naseer. Every generation of musicians bring forth new ideas and techniques and interpretations to fit the times.
I always find great inspiration,enjoyment and a sense of real tarab from listening to Farid or Sunbati, but I also feel as much inspiration from listening to what Naseer and other modern players have to say with the oud. Just as I listen to Bach and to Led Zeppelin.
I find that Naseer's playing reflects the emotions of the times we are living in, and his technique is pretty darn good to say the least. I think the current state of the world and things like youtube and mass communications needed someone like Naseer to emerge, and if it wasn't Naseer, it would be someone else playing in his style.
Regarding his throne, well maybe as Jazzchis points out, he feels comfortable in it, it's easy to get back or neck pains if you are not comfortable sitting with your oud, and perhaps this throne is just right for him? If we can appreciate a really intricate MOP inlay on an oud's soundboard as in Abdel Wahab's oud, then why not the 'throne'? As long as he dosen't start wearing a crown! :)
Here is an interesting thread on Naseer posted not too long ago in the forum:
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=6319#pid382...

JamesOud - 1-15-2008 at 03:47 AM

Thanks Charlie. Its just I am very passionate and it annoys me to think that Shamma is now the face of oud in the middle east when he totally sways away from Arabic music tradition and makes it a guitar/ukele rather than oud. I dont mind a little variation and innovation, but this now dominates his style and the simple sweet Arabic style is being lost to him. He is the head of beit al oud(house of oud) in Cairo and is producing robot players with his same style.
I want Qassabji, Sunbati, Farido. And if we think Iraqi, Munir Bashir was amazing, simple, beautiful and experimented aswell but not over the top.
It is choice, and although he does have some nice playing I might as well listen to guitarists who do that style much better than Shamma.

Settling down James

revaldo29 - 1-15-2008 at 05:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by JamesOud

Shamma played two pieces in row and they both sounded exactly the same. Its enough! Melodies are now swamped by chords and strumming and it doesnt sound like oud anymore...wheres is the emotion? and real tarab?



I too felt the two pieces were very dry and stale. In fact, my friend who studied in spain and listened with me told me it sounded just like flamenco. Lets face it, the playing was more "showing off" to the arab world than anything. However, I am not going to dismiss shamma so easily. I still get goosebumps when I listen to to "Al Amirrya" or "Ughniyet Hub Sharqia".

Lets not dismiss his accomplishments and talents out of a sheer nostalgia for a certain style of playing and narrow the specturm of what is defined as Tarab. The man is (was?) an innovator and a musical genius.

MatthewW - 1-15-2008 at 06:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by JamesOud

It is choice, and although he does have some nice playing I might as well listen to guitarists who do that style much better than Shamma.

You have a good point here JamesOud. For example, when it comes to playing in the flamenco style on one's oud, I haven't heard any oud player yet play flamenco better than say Paco de Lucia or Tomatito.
if I want flamenco with real tarab/duende and cajones give me Paco de Lucia or Tomatito any day.
Of course that dosen't imply that oud players can't have fun playing 'arab flamenco', as long as they don't take themselves too seriously. :) I think the oud is capable of many styles of music and we can have fun at it.
Oud players from Farid to Naseer are brilliant at other things, but flamenco, in my opinion, is still played best by the great guitarists such as Paco de Lucia, whose technique and skill is simply incredible.

Kalifa MOH 55 - 1-15-2008 at 07:26 AM

the way he plyes and the way his helping his people he can pring a camel to the intervio if he wants

Jason - 1-15-2008 at 08:20 AM

I think it is a mistake to say there is a 'correct' way to play the oud. A lot of people don't want to hear anything but the most traditional style on the oud but I really like the more contemporary stuff and think it does a great service to the oud world.

It's my opinion that the oud is just as much a 'real' instrument as the guitar, violin, etc. It's not just an 'ethnic instrument'.

SamirCanada - 1-15-2008 at 10:05 AM

Way to go James oud I share your opinions 100%
I was a big fan... then i started disliking him after his comments and in the end after this little episode I am downright done with him.

Farid and Naseer those two names don't belong in the same sentence. there are no grounds to compare them whatsoever and Naseer doesn't deserve the honor truthfully since he himself critisized his playing.
he is a business man and he does a good job at selling himself to the general public. people forgot what a real oud player is and what the oud should sound like.
Honestly he is gaining grounds as a pioneer trough his sales pitch but only because the people are not educated and dont remember the essence of what the oud is.
How is it that young players in cairo are going to his school? they want the flash and the pizazz of it, nothing more.
If I share your opinion James i also know that Iam not the only one and the other oud players and music lovers that i meet also think the same thing.

Jason you know i like you but hear me out on this one.

The oud is a symbol and an institution in the arab world. it represents so much culturally and in terms of identity. Its very much a real instrument but it is our instrument when its taken out of its context it looses its soul. When I hear the playing of someone like Brian Prunka (sorry to put you the spot) from our boards Iam really wowed!! he can play traditional forms 100 times better then myself or other oud players that studied the arabic music repertoire Iam so amazed. But the fact of the matter is that he spent so much time studying the true way of playing the oud is what is impressive.
When I hear players arab or occidental that are taking the oud out of its context I have to admit that Iam not the only one who feels like it is an abomination.

Oud Freak - 1-15-2008 at 10:39 AM

Jazzchiss, eres el mejor! Deberias ser un negociador de paz :)

Fully agree with Jason, I also have this vision of an instrument which is very rich and still not wholly explored. Despite being an admirer, I criticize Mr. Shamma for many things and it is true though that he has more technique than feeling...

The old school doesn't have to be denied and has to remain fully respected. But sticking all the time to them is kind of preventing the oud to develop, new styles have to appear, some of them will be a failure and some of them a real success. Even the old school isn't perfect. In the old school I particularly admire and am fully crazy of riad sumbati's feeling and taqassim. I can hear them all day long.

On another hand there is another "old school" player whose playing and oud sound is unbearable to me, but I won't mention any name because some people will be offended.

JamesOud - 1-15-2008 at 03:38 PM

Guys,

Im not against innovation and chords, But I feel the music is now dominated by this. Every piece he plays has to have chords and some type of strumming. Guys, dont forget he is the face of the oud of the Arab world, yet he stays away from anything that ties it back to tradition. And the generation thats learning from him plays exactly the same (eg. Abozekry).
Shamma has to be criticized, he needs to simplify. He makes the oud sound like a Ukelele, even when he plays Ya Msahrni by Oum Kalsoum.
Im not saying he hasnt done great things for the oud, but Im worried about the direction its going. In the interview the presenter is complimenting him so much and i bet you he has no idea whats going on. Listening to a mishmash of sound. As I said before Shamma fights with his instrument, I feel its violent, rather than gentle beautiful playing.
Thanks Samir and Revaldo

JamesOud - 1-15-2008 at 03:44 PM

Also I have heard some amazing recording for Mohamed Al Qassabji experimenting with chords, strumming, speed, pivots etc but yet he still holds the respect of most(all) oud players. Its because he never let technique overcloud his emotion. He is the true face of Qassabji. I also think Sunbati should get a mention, hes amazing! Innovation withing phrases, he innovated through his own tradition, Shamma innovates using other peoples tradition.
Calming down James...
Long live tarab!

Brian Prunka - 1-15-2008 at 04:23 PM

Hey Samir . . . you made me blush, you're too kind. I have so much to learn, every time I think I've got something figured out I hear some incredibly simple-sounding (but of course not really simple) piece or phrase played in true tarab style, and I feel like a complete beginner . . .

I guess I should weigh in on shamma while I'm here (just to keep it on-topic;) )
I can totally see why someone would bring his own chair with him to perform, I can't tell you how many times I've shown up to play somewhere and been given some completely inappropriate chair for playing oud. And if you're going to bring your own chair, might as well make it a nice one.

Jason - 1-15-2008 at 08:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SamirCanada
Jason you know i like you but hear me out on this one.

The oud is a symbol and an institution in the arab world. it represents so much culturally and in terms of identity. Its very much a real instrument but it is our instrument when its taken out of its context it looses its soul. When I hear the playing of someone like Brian Prunka (sorry to put you the spot) from our boards Iam really wowed!! he can play traditional forms 100 times better then myself or other oud players that studied the arabic music repertoire Iam so amazed. But the fact of the matter is that he spent so much time studying the true way of playing the oud is what is impressive.
When I hear players arab or occidental that are taking the oud out of its context I have to admit that Iam not the only one who feels like it is an abomination.


I really understand where you're coming from and respect your opinion. In the 60's many african-americans had some of the same feelings about american jazz. It was music anyone could play but it certainly meant more, culturally, to some people. Even if I may not agree with that opinion I do respect it and understand what you mean by it. :xtreme:

SamirCanada - 1-15-2008 at 08:55 PM

About that chair... about playing in a comfortable chair... that thing is not designed for comfort or ease of transport.



thats cool Jay. I see your point but I feel its not comparable. Iam not saying its not right for anyone to play the oud ( it should be played by as many people as possible its true). its not who are the players that is the problem its how its played.
Iam saying its not right to take it out of a highly respectful place that has taken 1000 years to develop and for the instrument to reach the status of the Sultan of Arabic instruments. taking it out of this place to confine it to play only minor and major scales. Its a shame i find.

MatthewW - 1-16-2008 at 06:43 AM

hi everyone- there has been some reference to 'arab flamenco' in this thread, which I assume is the current popularity with some oud players in the use of chords and flamenco phrasing used by guitarists on the oud.
I've mentioned Paco de Lucia as one of the great ambassadors of modern flamenco guitar, and it occured to me that maybe some members in the forum have not heard him, so here is one youtube clip of the guy in action on an average night. And to think he does it all with his fingers, no risha!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9vNSA0WNlw&feature=related

and a younger Paco:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBKarHlP4KU&feature=related

gilgamesh - 1-16-2008 at 07:26 AM

:bounce:This fine topic shows that we can go very far with only a folding chair, as far as a thoroughbred :cool:
:airguitar:

norumba - 1-19-2008 at 02:14 PM

Having spent may years as a flamenco player first before going to oud and then sarod, i'd like to chime in on this...

I think there has to be a distinction between innovation and good , heartful playing. The two are not mutually exclusive but by the same token, they are not the same thing, either, and more importantly, there is not a causal relationship between the two.

I appreciate what Shamma is trying to do, but i dont think its done well. i like the ukelele analogy, It really does sound like bad flamenco-lite on an out of tune ukelele. His technique isnt that well developed either, IMO - because his chords arent really that well in tune. I know its a bitch to do chords well on the oud, but if youre going to go down that path, you need to nail it.

Music has to innovate, it has to come forward, - and innovators will either enrich their traditions or weaken it. Its a choice and responsibility you have to be aware of , if youre wanting to be on the cutting edge. (Paco de Lucia has a lot to answer for in this regard as well, as the harmonic choices he made and brought back really set flamenco on a very weakened trajectory, IMO, but thats another story).

i think Shamma is still wrestling with those kind of choices and issues. You hear it in his playing actually, this struggle, this search: hes trying so hard to make whats in his head *work*musically, but its not there yet - so we're witness to the struggle, rather than the result. Hes not at peace with his vision yet.


i thought the chair thing is way over the top and a bit pretentious - quite a hoot :) i dont buy the comfort thing for that chair, cause he's still using a footstool, so its not for ergonomics. When chairs were crucial to me ( now i just sit on the floor) , Id send approximate dimensions to the promoter for gigs: "Please supply an armless chair, approximately x high and y deep"- never a problem.

JamesOud - 1-19-2008 at 05:55 PM

Good point on the chords. This is a good is example when 'the out of tune-ness' of the the chords doesnt matter because its suppossed to be an innovation on the oud and all the people are impressed with it.
Although I still think he has a great plucking technique, hes style is weak and very weak in culture. And again this is why Im disappointed that people see him as the face of the oud in the middle east and abroad in some cases, when he really plays nothing to do with it.
I think he should switch to the ukelele or get a guitar because this is obviously where his heart lies...

Au Revoir...

Oud Freak - 1-20-2008 at 05:39 AM

Jamesoud, you have a point there. His excessive speedy playing and overcrowded with notes is not that neat when he wants to impress, not because of him, I only think that it is too much for an oud.

DaveH - 1-25-2008 at 06:45 AM

Well sorry to be so late to pick up on this, and I agree we shouldn't get too ad hominem about our judgements but I have to admit guiltily a certain amount of glee at seeing Nassir brought down a peg. You see I'm a bit of a coward and have watched these forums for quite a long time grinding my teeth at the usual adulation that greets mention of his name. I respect this adulation and I respect that Nassir has talent and supports political causes, but my own personal feelings on this is that he's quite a ways from the best there is - as a musician and as a person. I find his music bland, overly technical with too much obvious emotion and not enough emotional intelligence. Also I'd love to hear him play just a little more often outside of Ajam. And yes, as others have noted, he does seem to want to be Paco de Lucia (who I'm afraid isn't someone I feel it worth aspiring to musically either). Aside from pumping himself up in the comments people have quoted I seem to remember him also describing himself as the best oud player ever and denigrating Farid al-Attrache as a bit of a hick. Well, Farid is the epitome of a style which emphasises heart over head and I wouldn't mind if he'd said this wasn't his preference, but the truth is, if you do prefer a more intellectual style, you're not going to find rich pickings in one of Naseer's formulaic performances. As for his political comments, I agree with all of them, but am not convinced he's doing as much for the people for whom he claims to be speaking as for his own publicity.

Having said all this, I do have to say I occasionally enjoy listening to his performances and he is a hell of a lot better than me on the oud. It's just I think he gets a little too much kudos for playing fast and talking loud.

There. I'll crawl back into my hole now and try and keep to constructive comments in the future.

While we're on the subject though, I do really enjoy reading posts that aren't just unequivocal praise for anyone who ever touched the oud. Like I say, I don't think we should be getting personal, and I may be overdoing it above, but I do enjoy a bit of "spice" in terms of constructive opinions on what people find to their liking or otherwise in oud playing. There are some really people with a great deal of understanding on these forums and a bit of robust but friendly debate would be exciting.

Oud Freak - 1-27-2008 at 12:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DaveH
Well sorry to be so late to pick up on this, and I agree we shouldn't get too ad hominem about our judgements but I have to admit guiltily a certain amount of glee at seeing Nassir brought down a peg. You see I'm a bit of a coward and have watched these forums for quite a long time grinding my teeth at the usual adulation that greets mention of his name. I respect this adulation and I respect that Nassir has talent and supports political causes, but my own personal feelings on this is that he's quite a ways from the best there is - as a musician and as a person. I find his music bland, overly technical with too much obvious emotion and not enough emotional intelligence. Also I'd love to hear him play just a little more often outside of Ajam. And yes, as others have noted, he does seem to want to be Paco de Lucia (who I'm afraid isn't someone I feel it worth aspiring to musically either).


Fully agreed :)

Oud Freak - 1-27-2008 at 12:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DaveH
Aside from pumping himself up in the comments people have quoted I seem to remember him also describing himself as the best oud player ever and denigrating Farid al-Attrache as a bit of a hick. Well, Farid is the epitome of a style which emphasises heart over head and I wouldn't mind if he'd said this wasn't his preference, but the truth is, if you do prefer a more intellectual style, you're not going to find rich pickings in one of Naseer's formulaic performances.


opinion respected and disagreed.

dandana - 1-27-2008 at 03:22 AM

Hi everyone;
It's interesting to see how this topic evolved; thanks to every one of u for ur contributions.
Quote:
Originally posted by JamesOud
... And again this is why Im disappointed that people see him as the face of the oud in the middle east and abroad in some cases, when he really plays nothing to do with it.



One very important thing though:
I don't agree with u James Oud. Who said that he's the face of the oud in the middle east? U have to differenciate between 2 things, the public "emotional" applause for a performer (and i didn't say artist!) and his artistic level. This second notion is an evaluation made by both experts and ... history witnessing the evolution of this performer.
Besides, don't forget that innovation is fisrt received either by an imaginary enthousiasm or a complete reject and hesitation. It's after that (sometimes years after that) that the work is analysed and evaluated seriously. So he's trying to innovate, no doubt about that, but from that to say that he's the "face " of the oud in the middle east, i doubt a lot about that.
I admit, though, that he and others like him (too many to be mentioned one by one) from those innovators in the modern arabic music and oud playing, have all contributed to bring forward and introduce this magical instrument, the oud, to the whole world. That's to be said. The modern media is surely doing its job very well also!

Yet i enjoy some of his works (and not all!) inspite of all my critics sometime. That's how i see art: evaluating the work regardless of our opinion on the person performing (of course it's up to everyone to see things the way he likes).

One last thing, i think that time will tell us a lot about players like Shamma, because it won't only be judging their performance and works far from emotions, but also because it's gonna show us how did this performer's vision mature and evolve...

Goodbye

eliot - 1-27-2008 at 04:17 AM

The chair doesn't help my enjoyment of the music, which is hindered by many other things already...

Carry on...

JamesOud - 1-27-2008 at 04:51 PM

Hello Guys,

Dandana, Shamma is very famous and I still think he is the face of Modern oud plaing in the middle east.
Whenever oud is involved, people think of Shamma. He runs Beit al Oud in Cairo, Morrocco, Iraq and Dubai and is supported by many Arabic governments. So his publicity machine is very good especially when it is support by people that are very high up. When we talk about innovation, he is actually not doing anything overly new. If you listen to Qassabji's private sessions, he uses alot of that technique, strumming, chords etc, that was innovation! and in the public eye he didnt sacrifice soul for technique.
In many years to come, Shamma will be seen as someone who has done well for the oudd but I doubt anybody will remember him for more than a man that composed a piece for one hand and had a grand chair. His awful style is unfortunately embedded in the next generation of oud players who he has taught to sacrifice soul for technique and sacrifice individuality in the process.

confused James.

Gotta love these forums!

Oudism - 1-27-2008 at 05:25 PM

James..why you're saying awful style. He has his style, actually it's Jamil bachir style. Not necessarly awful, simply different from Farid el atrache style.

JamesOud - 1-28-2008 at 01:31 AM

Hello Oudism,
Thank you for pointing out that I said 'awful' style. It is a bit much I admit, and he has done some good. But what I mean is that this is the style that he represents Arabic oud playing with. Can you imagine when Westerners hear it, they start to think this is traditional because this is what he claims, he has a great technique but does not sound Arabic. So this is actually doing more damage to Arabic oud than better, even if the young generation start listening and accepting this as dogma.
If it is an Iraqi style(which I dont think it is) then he should stop claiming to be the real deal representing the whole Arab world and stick to Iraq. He already murders Abdel Wahab and Oum Kalsoum songs when he plays them in the Ukelele style. Im sorry if Im a bit extreme, but since this post the more I listen to him the more I really dislike his style and that interview and chair didnt do him any favours either.

Still confused james

Oud Freak - 1-28-2008 at 08:45 AM

JamesOud, you have a point. Absolutely right in what you said about qassabji. I think Nasseer Chamma is the show off style. Technique is great but technique is not everything.
Cheers!

Oudism - 1-28-2008 at 11:12 AM

James: check these links. Style is different from the traditional arabic of Qasabji or Farid. You find out from where Nasser is getting his style
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVSTPQTziRI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kY26CkGvuo&feature=related
and here Omar Bachir, son of Munir bachir (brother of Jamil bachir) same style as his uncle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiiTZ2hpH0A&feature=related
Here Nasiir playing the same music
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8bJ-3iim3w
Now this is the question: do you consider this arabic music? For me yes, as long as the sweet romantic melody is here. Think about Fairouz too. Arabic music fairouz or Western?? It's arabic but different from traditional.
Best

dandana - 1-28-2008 at 12:43 PM

Hello James;
I agree with u on that point of the late Qasabji. Yes Qasabji was what he was: we look at him and recall his works with respect, that's exactly what we could call the "times' judgement".

Naseer is very famous, yes. But for whom? General public certainly. Would u judge one's level and talent on the "public applause" he gets? I'm not saying that public is not important but public is one thing and one's real evaluation is another, certainly if we agree that Shamma is very talented in the show bizz and fame seeking, yes i admit. But it's as if i wanted to attribute a prize of the best one depending on his fame, celebrity and public reaction: it's not fair, that's all.

If someone wants to know or to evaluate the arabic music by "studying" Shamma and taking him as a reference without looking elsewhere that's his problem, because the field is full with real talented, serious and hardworking innovators who deserve to earn their right place, and i'm sur they will.

And one last thing: like or dislike a style is very personal, no imposition, no obligation. It's a matter of taste. That's his style (with all critics it could bear) and we are left to say our opinions.

The "happy to have this discussion" dandana! Not confused at all!;);)

katakofka - 1-28-2008 at 02:56 PM

Oudism, ur right. Actually I love that music. My favorite dance for Jamil bachir. Here is a file I am playing it;)

katakofka - 1-28-2008 at 02:59 PM

decompressed !

katakofka - 1-28-2008 at 03:54 PM

So James: I am not from the new generation but I like Jamil bachir style. Jamil Bachir, student of Muhyyi eddin Targan (a turkish 3oud player who established a school of music in Iraq in the begining of this century) took the oud into another dimension, by using good technic. Targan is considered the Paganini of the Oud since he wrote many piece for the Oud very difficult to be played. You may not like the style but Targan style and subsequently Nassir contributed widly to the Oud. Nassir is no more than a simple student impressed by the style of Jamil Bachir.
check that link, a music composed by Muhyyi eddin Targan, you may understand better my point
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5IK70WFYXs
Cheeeeeeers:airguitar:

eliot - 1-28-2008 at 05:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by katakofka
So James: I am not from the new generation but I like Jamil bachir style. Jamil Bachir, student of Muhyyi eddin Targan (a turkish 3oud player who established a school of music in Iraq in the begining of this century) took the oud into another dimension, by using good technic. Targan is considered the Paganini of the Oud since he wrote many piece for the Oud very difficult to be played. You may not like the style but Targan style and subsequently Nassir contributed widly to the Oud. Nassir is no more than a simple student impressed by the style of Jamil Bachir.
check that link, a music composed by Muhyyi eddin Targan, you may understand better my point

Interesting you mention Targan... he is widely credited with introducing flamenco-inspired technique to the 'ud. His playing differed from many Turkish artists before and after, since he had a much heavier picking action. Though no one really sounds "like Targan," he is still widely respected for his innovations as well as his mastery of traditional repertoire.

Oud Freak - 1-29-2008 at 03:34 AM

katakofka, hehe, I like this :) I recognized some sequences copied-pasted by Mr. Chamma, hehe. You are right dear :)

DaveH - 1-29-2008 at 06:20 AM

One of the Shamma school who I think really does have their own voice and whose CD I've been listening to a lot recently is Yousra Dhahbi. Agree/disagree???

katakofka - 1-29-2008 at 08:31 AM

Oud Freak, thanks. If my playing reminds you of Nassir shamma, I am the winner:rolleyes::D. If you like I'll play it to you on msn:airguitar:

Oud Freak - 1-30-2008 at 03:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by katakofka
Oud Freak, thanks. If my playing reminds you of Nassir shamma, I am the winner:rolleyes::D. If you like I'll play it to you on msn:airguitar:


Lol. Despite the nice playing, I was talking about the piece of music itself. Talk on msn, c u!