Mike's Oud Forums

Prehistoric oud

chuckerbutty - 4-12-2004 at 10:55 AM

Hi folks

I'm trying to get some info on the the historic oud and its music. Something that really intrigues me is a diagram of an oud from 13th century Baghdad which shows it with (gut?) frets, meaning of course that it would be impossible to perform microtonal music on it.

Can a knowledgeable person help? Any pointers would be really appreciated.

Cheers.

nadir - 4-12-2004 at 11:22 AM

Just wondering if you noticed that there were ten pegs and five strings (double stringed)? I'll translate the Arabic later if I can...

Dr. Oud - 4-12-2004 at 11:33 AM

Gut frets are moved to produce microtones. Many instruments have movable frets for this purpose (bouzuq, tar, rebab, setar, saz, etc). The fretted oud is still play in Tunisia.

Whiile this exerpt is old, there are even older artifacts of ouds from 2,500 B.C. in the Pre-Sumarrian culture. The oud has been mentioned (by Rumi, as the barbat) in Persian literature dating from the 5th century.

chuckerbutty - 4-12-2004 at 12:30 PM

Yes of course, I forgot that the frets could be moved - silly me!

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall reading somewhere that the early barbat was probably carved out of the solid instead of being built with ribs. I know that lutelike chordophones have developed independently in many cultures, but would you place the origin of the proto-oud in Persia/Mesopotamia?

Prehistoric oud

wfspark - 4-12-2004 at 12:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chuckerbutty
Yes of course, I forgot that the frets could be moved - silly me!

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall reading somewhere that the early barbat was probably carved out of the solid instead of being built with ribs. I know that lutelike chordophones have developed independently in many cultures, but would you place the origin of the proto-oud in Persia/Mesopotamia?
Hello Chuckerbutty. If I'm not mistaken, the oud was deffinatly carved out of one piece of wood, and was suggested that one of Adam's sons invented the oud.

William F. Sparks

Dr. Oud - 4-12-2004 at 03:31 PM

The oud got it's current name from the Arabic wood for "wood". Barbat was/is the farsi word for that large lute thingy. The origin predates Persian and Meopotamian cultures by a couple thousand years, pre-Assyrian, pre-Babalonian, pre-Sumerian puts it around 5,000 years ago, way older than surviving written history. Recent digs are uncovering even older cultures, although I don't know if they have found evidence of music instruments yet. The oldest pitorial representation are rock carvings, without much detail about the construction of the oud/barbat. The earliest writing about the construction of the oud is from 11th century Arabic, which mentions vault construction. Before that is conjecture, myth and legend.

Turtle

chuckerbutty - 4-13-2004 at 12:35 AM

On the subject of myth, it's interesting that the European lute was sometimes called the 'testudo' (Latin for turtle shell) during the Renaissance. Although it had evolved from the oud, writers and players of the time preferred to ignore the lute's Arab origins and portray it as a descendent of the ancient Greek lyre, which according to myth had been invented by stringing up a turtle shell. This despite the fact that the lute and the lyre are very different instruments.

I'm aware of the amazing cow-headed Sumerian harp that has survived, and that the ancient Egyptians had harps and long-necked lutes, but, as you say, it's a matter of conjecture as to how these things were played. What I'm trying to get here is an idea, however vague, of the medieval oud (say, 700 - 1300), based on the iconography and literature of the time - stuff like al-Farabi and al-Urmawi (from whose book, incidentally, the picture is taken).

Byzantine oud

mavrothis - 4-13-2004 at 06:46 AM

Hi. Here are some pictures of icons of the late Byzantine era, with examples of instruments. You'll see the oud has the bass string below the trebles, just as in the older Arabic instruments.

Take care,

mav

mavrothis - 4-13-2004 at 06:47 AM

One more:

chuckerbutty - 4-13-2004 at 08:54 AM

Cheers for these great pics, Mav. It's interesting that the player in the first pic is holding his risha in such a way that it passes between the index finger and middle finger - never seen that before. These ouds look quite similar to the instrument that was was being played throughout Europe in the 14th century.

14th century lute:

chuckerbutty - 4-13-2004 at 08:56 AM

mavrothis - 4-13-2004 at 08:59 AM

Hi. Thanks for your pics as well.

Yeah, the oud had many paths to take to Europe. The Moors in Spain, via the Byzantine Empire, and the all-popular Crusades of course. I'm pretty sure these icons were made around the time you said, perhaps even in the post-Byzantine period.

I got them from the solo oud CD by Antonis Apergis (OYTI).

The way the risha is held is still used by a lot of people, my teacher actually taught me that first before I switched to the more common way of holding it.

Take care,

mav

chuckerbutty - 4-13-2004 at 09:02 AM

Here's an oud from an illustration of the tale of Bayed and Riyad - it's unusual in that it doesn't seem to have a soundhole. I've no idea how old this is. In fact the oud looks very similar to the modern Romanian cobza, which apparently has pretty much died out in the last few decades.

chuckerbutty - 4-13-2004 at 09:05 AM

Romanian cobza - this one seems particularly ill-favoured, it's missing most of its strings and has a great big hole in the soundboard.

Ronny Andersson - 4-13-2004 at 10:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chuckerbutty
Romanian cobza - this one seems particularly ill-favoured, it's missing most of its strings and has a great big hole in the soundboard.


The big hole is completely normal on some cobzas.
For more iconography look atTurovsky and Edwards

Ronny Andersson - 4-13-2004 at 10:38 AM

>The way the risha is held is still used by >a lot of people, my teacher actually >taught me that first before I switched to >the more common way of holding it.

I think this is because of the standing position.

bluesyOud - 4-13-2004 at 01:10 PM

VEry interesting topic guys!!!!I learned
many thing from it!!!!
I also hold the Risha the way it is
shown in the byzantine picture!!!
But in my case this is because I'm used
to the standard pick (as a guitarist).I
have developed a picking technique over the years on the guitar,and when I started playing the oud I found it very
difficult using the risha.
So I use the risha like a pick.I don't
know if this is very correct!!!!the future will show!!!!
Anyway if it's sounds good to me,it's allright!!!!!

:D:D

mavrothis - 4-13-2004 at 01:55 PM

Hey bluesy,

Many people still use that technique, it's all about what's most comfortable for you man.

Enjoy, and experiment!

Take care,

mavros

nadir - 4-13-2004 at 02:42 PM

Speaking of Byzantines, when I was at the Ayasofia, the workers discovered a mosaic portrait of St. John! The whole place isn't completely cleaned up yet, so lots of new things are still to be discovered! :bounce: