Mike's Oud Forums

sound affected by type of wood in fingerboard

journeyman - 2-18-2008 at 07:56 AM

Recently someone suggested to me that the type of wood used in a fingerboard had a large effect on the sound of any stringed instrument. Does anyone have any experience comparing rosewood to ebony fingerboards on ouds? It would be difficult to tell as all ouds have their own sound, but perhaps someone has changed fingerboards on an existing oud and would like to comment on this.

Roy

Oudism - 2-18-2008 at 09:56 AM

Hi Roy,
Interesting ! How the fingerboard affects the sound? what I know (with my little knowlegde) is that strings generate frequencies. These frequencies are amplified by the bowl and projected into the soundboard. I don't see how the fingerboard can affect the sound. Could you tell more?

Odsm

journeyman - 2-18-2008 at 12:13 PM

Well I don't really know if it is even the case. The person who told me this plays the string bass. He seemed to be sure of this opinion so I thought I'd ask if anyone else has anything to say about it. I will be having an oud built soon so am gathering any information that I can in an attempt to learn more about the oud's sound properties.

SamirCanada - 2-18-2008 at 12:17 PM

IMO..
it doesnt affect it.

Brian Prunka - 2-18-2008 at 03:24 PM

I think it does have a significant effect. While I haven't replaced a fingerboard on an instrument to compare, ebony fingerboards seem to have a more focused attack and more presence in the sound, while rosewood is slightly warmer but more diffuse sound. Ebony also seems to help sustain. I think it is primarily due to the hardness of the wood (and how porous it is). I definitely favor ebony fingerboards, though there are so many different kinds of rosewood that it's impossible to generalize. I have played nearly identical guitars with ebony and rosewood fingerboards, and there is a distinct difference (and it should matter even less on guitars, since they have frets).
The string is vibrating against the wood where you hold it down, so I don't see how it wouldn't affect it.

Oudism - 2-18-2008 at 03:42 PM

Hey Brian
If I understand you correctly, ebony fingerboard is better for sustained sound ?
Theorically, If you play on 2 guitars without holding down the string, free string, i guess the sound would be similar in both ebony or Rosewood fingerboard. No?
Quote:
Originally posted by Brian Prunka

The string is vibrating against the wood where you hold it down, so I don't see how it wouldn't affect it.


It make sense what you say, but I am still thinking about it:shrug:

Johnny_Be_Oud - 2-18-2008 at 04:19 PM

Well, I agree with Brian. Even on an electric guitar that has frets it makes a difference whether the neck is ebony, maple, or rosewood.
When your note is coming right off of the wood, as on an oud, is has to impact the sound.
I'm not sure that qualifying the difference is as important as trying it to see what you like in terms of tone, sustain, and feel, though.

The important thing to remember is that all the elements of how the instrument is constructed are going to work together, to make what is hopefully that lovely sound you're looking for.

cheers,

John

SamirCanada - 2-18-2008 at 08:33 PM

You cant make the comparison in this way.
taking two almost identical guitars doesn't determine anything.
The only way to know is to change the fingerboard from ebony to rosewood on the same oud and see if it affects it.
I dont think it makes a noticeable difference from my very short experience.
I would think maybe the specie of neck wood and its thickness would be a bigger factor of influence on the sound. Depending on if the wood absorbs the sound vibrations or not.

dubai244 - 2-18-2008 at 08:39 PM

Hi Guys,

Let me put it in this way: The fingerboard does not affect the sound of the oud in sense of Tone and Volume, wether you have rose fingerboard or ebony fingerboard. But it does affect the clarity of the tones when you press on the fingerboard, let me exlain how?!

if you dont have straight, clean, smoothened fingerboard (Rose, Ebony .....etc), all the tones which generated by press on the fingerboard will generate "buzzing" sounds or not clear tones.

The sound of the oud is purely generated by the sound board of the oud. Fingerboard has nothing to do with sound board.

Thanks

omazuz - 2-18-2008 at 09:42 PM

And what about polyester fingerboard? Amin Hadad used to decorate the fingerboard with shels and above the decoration to put polyester.

http://www.yad2.co.il/Yad2/ViewImage.php?CatID=3&SubCatID=0&...

If u open this site u might see an example.

Greg - 2-18-2008 at 11:04 PM

One of my guitars is a Fender American Telecaster with a maple fretboard. I have played other Teles with the same pickups and electronics, but with a Rosewood fretboard. In my opinion, there is a noticeable difference. The maple gives a crisper and brighter sound. It therefore follows that the fingerboard wood on an oud probably does have an effect on the sound.
My .02 cents worth ;)

Regards,

Greg

eliot - 2-18-2008 at 11:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dubai244
Hi Guys,

Let me put it in this way: The fingerboard does not affect the sound of the oud in sense of Tone and Volume, wether you have rose fingerboard or ebony fingerboard. But it does affect the clarity of the tones when you press on the fingerboard, let me exlain how?!

if you dont have straight, clean, smoothened fingerboard (Rose, Ebony .....etc), all the tones which generated by press on the fingerboard will generate "buzzing" sounds or not clear tones.

The sound of the oud is purely generated by the sound board of the oud. Fingerboard has nothing to do with sound board.

Thanks

I believe this is wrong for two reasons:
1) some of the sound of the oud is the vibration of the strings themselves and not the soundboard. If you tie the strings at the bridge even slightly differently, the sound of each string changes (an acoustic phenomenon which is amplified by the soundboard). If you don't have callouses on your fingers and finger notes, likewise the sound is different than if you do have harder callouses. Therefore, the combination of finger and soundboard could affect the string vibrational timbre in significant ways.

2) If you hold your oud away from your chest, so that the back of the oud is only in contact with air, the tone from the oud is dramatically different than if you are holding the oud with it touching your chest and stomach. In particular, bass and low mid frequencies are affected most prominently. How does the body of the oud come to attain a resonance? From the two points of contact the body has with the strings: the bridge and the finger/fingerboard. Another aspect which has nothing to do with the soundboard...

The soundboard doesn't generate any sound... the sound is only generated by a striking of the string...

dubai244 - 2-19-2008 at 12:33 AM

Hi Eliot,

Thanks for the informations. About the chest attaching to oud body, you are right about that. Actually, Naseer shamma mentioned that before in the one of his TV interviews. Naseer prefer that the player should be thin person so he can feel the vibration of the oud better than fat person (fat person like myself ;)) .....

But i dont agree with you regarding the sound board and here is why?. I did experiment in one of my cheap oud. I have a oud that the sound getting cut-off for some reason and this oud does not has eacho at all. I changed the strings and still same problem. At same time i read an article about Brace Vibration of the sound board in the net. so what i did, i broke one of the brace of the sound board of that oud. After that the sound got much better. it is as if like that brace was holding the sound of the oud. The sound got loud and eachoy ... even the tones got different.

The sound of the oud is generated by the sound board. and to be more specific, it is generated by the braces which are under the sound board.

"FingerBoard" is doesn't generate any sound, i agree but it does affect the sound of the oud in-directly.

Thanks

Peyman - 2-19-2008 at 08:09 AM

You guys should look at the design of kasha guitars. Like Samir said, the neck itself affects the sound. The neck should not absorb the energy generated by the strings. The fingerboard is part of this equation. Obviously, fingerboards are usually made out of tough material so the strings don't dig a groove into them(also preferably dark material so they don't get dirty over time).

Dr. Oud - 2-19-2008 at 04:48 PM

The tone quality of an electric guitar is affected by the wood of the body, but with each piece of wood being different, different guitars have different tonal characteristics, even with the "same electronics. Different woods have different frequency responses as well. While the string creates the primary vibration, the pickups can transmit differently due to minute differences in height, windings, tone settings, etc. The body will add resonance that affects the duration of the string's vibration, but the tonal characteristics are mostly due to the electronics used and mostly by their settings. It's pretty hard to duplicate exactly the settings from one guitar to the next, so comparison between guitars is rather ambiguous.
While the string produces the fundamental sound wave, the soundboard adds harmonics that give the tone it's color. Only a lyre is a purely string produced sound, even harps have soundboards. The braces determine resonant frequency enhancements as they create node points in the vibration of the soundboard. The body adds reflective waves of the lower frequencies, and the entire instrument vibrates adding something to the overall sound.

Oudism - 2-19-2008 at 06:32 PM

so Dr Oud, the fingerboard has little effect on the sound?

Brian Prunka - 2-20-2008 at 04:12 PM

Hey Oudism, I think you got what I was saying. If you're playing an open string, then the fingerboard wouldn't affect the sound. And if you're fingering a note, the nut doesn't affect the sound.
Have you ever heard a sarod? a metal fingerboard obviously changes the sound. it seems pretty clear that different kinds of woods also change the sound, though it's more subtle.

Dr. Oud - 2-20-2008 at 04:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Oudism
so Dr Oud, the fingerboard has little effect on the sound?

I'm not convinced that it does. None of the examples listed here are true comparisons of fingerboard material alone. I mean after all the sarod is a skin face, carved body with sympathetic strings, etc. I believe that the metallic fb is to allow the smooth sliding technique used to play in the traditional Indian style. The Afghan rebab has a similar construction, skin face, carved body, and sounds very similar, except the neck is not metallic, so?
My point is that the innumerable variable affects of structure and materials from one instrument to another negate any comparison of the affects of one component. dig?

Brian Prunka - 2-20-2008 at 07:29 PM

According to your logic, Doc, then there's no way to know if there's a difference between any woods in any aspect of an instrument, since there are too many factors and no two pieces of wood are the same.
There are other ways to compare the effects of various woods on instruments . . . listening to a large number of instruments with characteristic X and a large number of instruments with characteristic Y, you could reasonably discern some tonal characteristic shared by all of the former and a different characteristic shared by the latter. It could then be logically inferred that there is a causal relationship. True this is inductive rather than deductive reasoning, but in a situation where as you admit, deductive reasoning is impossible, inductive reasoning seems admissible.

I'm not saying for certain that fingerboard wood has a big effect on sound, but I believe I have a legitimate opinion that it does, based on my experience.
Also, I think that the burden of proof lies with the folks who think it doesn't affect the sound, since any part of the instrument in direct contact with the string should be presumed to affect the sound IMO. The risha material affects the sound, no? The nut? :shrug:

I think that the example of guitars is a good one; a factory-produced acoustic guitar will have as little variability as is probably possible to achieve on an acoustic instrument. The lacquer on the face helps diminish the contribution of the soundboard, and the presence of frets helps reduce the effect of the fingerboard. And yet, a difference is still usually apparent.
Maybe someone should do tests with an oscilloscope and just a string and fingerboard. would be interesting . . . we could place bets to make it more interesting, even ;)

journeyman - 2-20-2008 at 08:50 PM

Well, this is all very interesting. I of course have no strong opinion, but to me Doc, the sarod sounds very different than the rebab and it seems the main difference is the fingerboard. The sarod has much more sustain. (and it goes to 11 too) having said that, I do realize that there are other differences. Perhaps the best way answer this question would be to take an oud that one is familiar with and change the fingerboard to do a comparison. Doc I'm sure you have nothing better to do with your time. :))

Peyman - 2-21-2008 at 02:00 PM

Just to add, sarods have metallic strings and robabs have nylon. Also robabs have deeper bodies and are usually fretted with 5 frets.

OudandTabla - 2-21-2008 at 02:48 PM

Hi,

This is my first post- what a wonderful resource- I'm so glad this forum is here!:D

I feel qualified to respond to this, as I replaced the fingerboard last year on my main performance Oud. Not a top-quality Oud, the fingerboard was a rather soft unidentfied wood dyed black. As I play very often, some strings had worn into the wood. There was dampened tone, some buzzing, and overall uncomfortable playability.

So I replaced it with some macassar ebony, and boy what a difference! More crisp tone, no buzzing or dampening. The way I understand it, when you finger an unfretted instrument, your finger and fingerboard function together as the nut (or one stopped end of the string). In much the same way that a bone nut has a clearer tone than a cheap plastic one, a harder wood such as ebony or rosewood will give better crisp tone than a softer wood such as mahogany or cherry. I can't comment on the difference between R.W. and ebony, but I can say from my experience that using the hardest wood you can find has a big impact.

The other way to put this comes from a great book on guitar construction- in a musical instrument, there are two classes of wood- tone emitters and tone transmitters. Both affect the sound, although some more minutely. The fingerboard is a transmitter- the density and smoothness of this piece affect the sound, but it does not emit any sound in itself. The soundboard is obviously the biggest tone emitter.

Thanks for this wonderful resource!!!:)

Dr. Oud - 2-21-2008 at 04:45 PM

Now there's a good comparison, now we're talking about density, not necessarily wood species. Some rosewood compares in density with some ebony, so my position remains, altered by this new perspective. Density or hardness matters, yes, wood species - I'm still not convinced. Comparison to factory made guitars is a stretch as guitars are much more robust in construction, especially steel stringed, and it's easier to achieve a more uniform result. Ouds, are very delicate structurally, such that the insrtument is operating at or near the boundary of it's structural limits, and as mathematicians will tell you, boundary conditions are not predictable.

journeyman - 2-21-2008 at 06:34 PM

Well yes, this makes perfect sense; density, not species. I was under the assumption that rosewood is generally less dense than ebony. I forgot that some rosewood is also very dense, so my assumption needs to be modified. In the past I have gone from a rosewood bridge to an ebony bridge on an archtop guitar, and, all differences to the oud aside, the sound was much better. It had more overtones and a warmer top end. The bridge would fall under the category of transmitter.

I'd like to find out what types of rosewood have the most density.

Greg - 2-21-2008 at 07:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Oud
Now there's a good comparison, now we're talking about density, not necessarily wood species. Some rosewood compares in density with some ebony, so my position remains, altered by this new perspective. Density or hardness matters, yes, wood species - I'm still not convinced. [snip]

Oh, density, not species ...... I see! .... I thought we were talking about wood colour and smell being the factors affecting tone ..... :rolleyes:

(sorry Richard, coudn't help myself ;))

Here is a chart showing wood densities by species:
http://www.simetric.co.uk/si_wood.htm

Unfortunately, Rosewood is not shown. I notice though that Maple is up there amongst the denser ones.

Interesting also to compare Spruce and Red Cedar (for soundboards).

Regards,

Greg

Dr. Oud - 2-22-2008 at 12:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by journeyman
...
I'd like to find out what types of rosewood have the most density.

African Rosewood, aka blackwood - look in those hot dry climates for slow growing wood, that's what makes for high density and hardness. Another factor is the grain orientation, flat grained will be a bit softer than vertical...on on and on....

grassyknoll - 1-5-2019 at 11:47 AM



I actually got a piece of .. black rosewood, i believe (will have to ask my luthier again what that was) installed on my sukar oud as a fretboard -- glued overtop whatever softer wood (with inlays on the sides) was the original.

He told me this wood was about as dense as ebony.

There were immediately noticable, big changes to the sound.

I was put off. The sound was more "metallic" than before, with the same strings, and it set me off on a huge process trying to add warmth by trying different strings.

I started tuning down a half-step, and that helped -alot-

I went through all this effort because i was enjoying the longer sustain given by the harder wood

In the end I couldn't deny that something had been lost, in warmth, and overall richness of sound (This was months later, and I had ample before and after recordings to prove it)

So now my oud is back at the luthier, getting that fingerboard removed.

I'm not sure what state my instrument will be in after it's gone. My luthier Is going to call me to arrange the next step.

It's unfortunate because the original fingerboard was a bit difficult, with the inlays, in the varying humidity in Canada

It would be nice to put a single piece of something stable on there

Not sure what to do

It's possible that the reason the sound was so adversely affected by the dense fingerboard is because it was also glued over a section of the soundboard (effectively raising the action). If that's the case, then i could theoretically have my cake and eat it too, ie. Have good sustain and warmth - simply by not having anything glued to the soundboard,.but rather by sanding down the fingerboard and adding a harder piece of wood ..

I can either go that route, or also try vaneering the original fingerboard with something not quite as hard, ie. mahogany.(assuming the fingerboard material is affecting the sound that much, and it's not the fact that the fingerboard vaneer was attached to the soundboard)

Of course, as my luthier says, the soundboard underneath the old fingerboard vaneer might be a bit f***'d up now, and - though I asked him to attempt to restore it as best as possible without adding vaneer to it - he seemed to think that might be inevitable. Maybe a thinner piece, he suggested, of something softer, or even cedar, like the soundboard

Any feedback or suggestions would be much appreciated.

It costs a bundle to keep shifting things around, not to mention, more time away from my baby, weeks at a time:(