Mike's Oud Forums

The Decline of Interest in Classical Musical Traditions... What Can We Do About it?

Sherko Dakouri - 6-18-2008 at 11:45 AM

It’s certainly not an ignorable fact that all classical musical traditions in the world are now under a serious threat. Just examine the case of Arabic classical music: Who nowadays listens to traditional pieces of semai, bashraf, tahmilah, maqam al-Iraqi, nubah or Muwashshahat? Very few. Indeed, dozens of classical musical traditions around the world that go back thousands of years in history are being threatened by imitators of American pop music. I’m not at all against American or Western pop music – although I like their classical music more – but I am against losing our own culture and identity, which will, by the way, be a loss for the whole world, not for us alone.

I’m not totally against globalisation either, as it has many positive effects, but it also facilitates the problem that I’m now talking about. If musicians from every tradition in the world give up their identity and start to imitate American pop music, we will end up with distorted copies of that music and lose the rich and beautiful variety of musical traditions that has somehow survived so far. All the musics of the world will become similar and we will end up with a very boring world.

The psychological aspect that makes young people listen to pop music more than anything else has been researched by many, but this is not my forte. Also, much has been written on the major decline in interest that Western classical music faces, but I haven’t really read any really plausible explanation yet.

As we all know, much of oud music belongs to the classical traditions of Arabic and Ottoman music. Are these traditions (and many others) really approaching death? Is it real that they only belong to the past and have no function anymore and that they don’t fit into our own time? Can we begin with something new without them? Why is the majority of young people around the world listening to superficial kinds of music that lack any real substance and message? And if we don’t want to lose these traditions, what can be done about this?

These are some issues that I think we should ponder carefully and debate between us.

charlie oud - 6-19-2008 at 04:31 AM

Hey Sherko, 1) Life goes on, life moves on and just because something is traditional that does'nt make it good, i.e. hanging, stoning, torture to name a few. 2) It is not up to you, me or anyone else what others choose to listen to young or old. 3) The history of music is characterised by outstanding individuals and groups, free spirits who had the courage to challenge the boundaries of tradition. 4)You ask, "Why are the majority of young people around the world listening to superficial kinds of music that lack any real substance and message?". Well, it may be superficial to "you", and maybe "you" feel it has no real substance or message, you are entitled to your opinion. 5) Traditions in music dont die, they adapt, adjust and evolve. They change. 6) You may have personal reasons, but please dont blame America, she has culture galore, we would'nt have jazz or blues without her. There are some fine oud players there too. ;) Beware of strict traditionalists, "Keep a clean nose, Watch the plain clothes, You dont need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows" (Bob Dylan) regards, C :cool:

Sherko Dakouri - 6-19-2008 at 05:21 AM

Hi charlie oud

Thanks for your reply. 1) Life really goes on, but it doesn't have to go to the wrong direction. It seems that you're mixing between the good and bad things that we have einherited from our ancsestors. It's really a terrible fallacy to compare classical musical traditions to stoning and torture. If you don't understand classical music and can't appreciate it, you're not even entitled to talk about this topic. 2) It's true that no one can force people to listen to a specific music, but it's everyone's right to try to direct them!! 3) The great free spirits in history indeed challenged tradition, but were first immersed in it and knew it well. They created something new from within the tradition and didn't lose their identity, just as tenburi Cemil Bey and Munir Bahir to name a very few. Most present day musicians that I criticise (and I'm specifically talking about the Middle East) are musically illiterate. What can they really acheive except superficiality? 4) The problem of substance and meaning is indeed very complex, but just look at how long a classical work can give joy, and how short it takes some pop songs to totally become obsecure. All musical junk will be filtered through time. 5) This is strange. I'm not at all against the change in traditions. On the contrary, I love it and encourage it, but real change happens from within, not by imitating others. Imitation is the opposit of creativity. And then, who can say that Tarkan or Hayfa Wahbi only "changed" and didn't distort their traditions? 6) I'm not against America, and I like some aspects of its culture, but I hate to see American music sweeping every musical tradition in the world. However, you should read the works of the many American intellectuals (like N. Chomsky) who criticise their own consumerist culture.

Note that I don't say that all popular music lacks substance and is superficial. And also note that this is not really the purpose of my post. Rather, I'm talking about the enormous and dangerous influence that American pop music excerts on other musical traditions. The problem with your reply is that you seem to ignore my main point: Variety is beautiful, and uniformity is boring. The dominance of American music threatens to cause uniformity to the music in our world, which is why it shoul be resisted. Regards.

charlie oud - 6-19-2008 at 05:38 AM

I can think of much to say but prefer not too, I hope others may forward replies which you find more agreeable. C

Cooper - 6-19-2008 at 06:04 AM

It is kind of like how I feel about folk music and folk dance too.

DaveH - 6-19-2008 at 06:05 AM

Hi again Sherko. Wow, you get down to business fast, don't you? I've put a few of my own disjointed reflections below, but far better to have a look at these two threads, started by Joseph (Joseph, though I didn't contribute then, I really enjoyed following those threads - please post more thoughtful stuff) here

http://www.arabicouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=7057#pid4...

and here

http://www.arabicouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=7057#pid4...

This may sound a bit trite, but I do think that pretty much every kind of music has a very few outstanding masters and a lot of dross. To put it another way, it's impossible for everyone to be a Bashir or a Bach or a Coltrane, but if you didn't have any of them, the form would just die out. This goes for classical/art music of any genre and also popular music. For example, contrary to what you say, it seems to me that Western classical music is doing perhaps better than it's ever done at the moment. There's a fair amount of knowledge of the most popular composers/pieces in the general public; there are some popular classical "superstars" making it big by combining reasonable (though rarely outstanding) playing with commercial packaging ("attitude", big promotional budgets, low-cut dresses etc etc); and there are even quite a few contemporary composers churning out music which is easy to listen to (though IMHO fairly derivative). And every now and then I actually find a recording that I consider worth buying. But there's a lot of mystique in Western classical music that makes people think anything from the 19th Century is great art when it isn't. For example I listened to Mendelson performed in a concert the other day and it struck me how totally vacuous this music was. In Western classical music, just like any other genre, there is a lot of stuff people say you should listen to that is actually going to mean very little to you.

I think that's mainly because, at any given point in time then, you're going to find very little recent stuff that's any good, and a whole lot of back catalogue, because there's a lot longer period to choose from and because the dross has been sifted out by all those years.

But the "also rans" are pretty necessary too

So on the face of it might not be as bad as it looks. Or is it? I do think Charlie may be ignoring the fact that there are billions of dollars backing a production process which is geared towards churning out very derivative, marketed popular music. In fact, this derivativeness is quite deliberate. You're not going to put ten million into producing a record that you don't know the kids will like. Far better to base your track (and actually your artist, while you're at it) entirely on the last one that did well. That's how you get Rihannas and Haifas. This music is marketed as part of a lifestyle - a self-image if you like - it goes with the clothes and the trainers and the mobile, so the demand is created almost out of thin air - people ARE manipulated. Particularly young people.

Modern technology is touted as a challenge to this state of affairs. But even in the days of the internet and laptop production suites, it's still probably nearly impossible for original, independent artists to make it big, because at the end of the day you need the marketing machine and that's what costs the money.

BUT, overall I'm an optimist (like Mavrothis in the thread I linked above), because we're not talking about making it big. It is possible to make original, creative music if you're an artist, and to find it if you're a listener. And people do sniff out quality in the end. Overall, I really don't know if original artists are less free to pursue creativity than they were when dukes or sultans patronised a very few of them. But the music is there, and it's not going away, so lets make it for ourselves to the best of our abilities (limited in my case), seek it out with the internet and exchange real creativity.

As I said, disjointed reflections...

DaveH - 6-19-2008 at 06:11 AM

Sorry, the first thread I linked to (and probably the best) should have been this one:

http://www.arabicouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=5937#pid3...

Sherko Dakouri - 6-19-2008 at 07:38 AM

Hello DaveH!

Thank you for your reply. I read what Joseph wrote. As he said, comparing literature to music is indeed wrong, because in the case of language, it's only the "form" that changes. The language remains Arabic (or Turkish or Kurdish etc..) What's happening in Middle Eastern (and generally in all non-Western) musics is very different. The musicians that I criticise have given up their own musical language alltogether.. I'm sure you know such Middle Eastern musicians and the enormous popularity that they enjoy.

Anyhow, I'm don't belong to the "let's-return-to-the-roots" camp, I'm more of a compromist. I will happily accept some Western (preferably classical) influences, on the condition that they affect the identity of our music only a slightly. Read Henry George Farmer to know how much the West took from the Islamic civilisation in fields including music. Most Western instruments have Middle Eastern origins. In this respect, I'm not against adopting the cello or bass for instance. Some harmony at a few places can be beautiful, and counterpoint can be used even more.. Making the existant forms "bigger" like those in Western classical music won't hurt either.

I don't know if Western classical music is a tiny bit better than before now, but what I know for sure is that it's in a miserable situation. I read in a statistic that some 90 % of sold CDs were of popular music. Thanks again!

Sherko Dakouri - 6-19-2008 at 08:12 AM

Hello again DaveH!

The last post by Joseph was really better. However, I have to make some points clear. Music that's considered heritage cannot be "improved". No one has the right to perform it in manners or with instruments that don't belong to its composer's era (with a very few exceptions). On the other hand, I think it's absolutly true that every new Middle Eastern musician should take tradition as a starting point, and also so develop it as much as he/she can. An example of this can be "Sama'i Kurd" by Simon Shaheen. In one of its "khanat," he changes the maqam 6 times. I undoubtedly consider this a progress.

And again, it's because of the material considerations that are taken into account when making music that I ask what we can do. Best regards

Brian Prunka - 6-19-2008 at 11:50 AM

It's interesting how often these discussions crop up with non-popular music.

My 1¢ (the exchange rate is terrible for the US right now):

Sherko, while I agree that a traditional music cannot be "improved" in any meaningful sense, any musician has a "right" to perform any music with with any instruments in any manner he or she sees fit, and everyone else is free enjoy/condemn it as much as they see fit. So Hossam Ramzy can play Farid tunes with a synthesizer and make the percussion louder than the whole band, and I can say that I think it sucks.

Regarding your main points, I don't think Arabic or Ottoman music is in particular danger.
Most older forms of music fall broadly into two categories, functional music and art music. Functional music is music for some utilitarian purpose, accompanying some significant event, such as the call to prayer. Art music is music for its own sake, to be listened to attentively as an event in itself.
So-called "classical" traditions are generally art music, though some folk music also falls into that category. And some classical music is intended for some more utilitarian purpose (Bach chorales, say). So the lines can blur, especially over time (when the original purpose no longer exists, and the music only remains, then it is either appreciated as art or it will die out).

The main problem, as I see it, is in thinking that what children enjoy should dictate our musical culture. this is the center of the art music vs. popular music debate. You reference this yourself in your comments about what "young people" are doing. The music industry has always been focused on selling music to kids, while art musical culture has been about adult tastes. Art music has never been big business. For the most part, all classical music forms are the result of the attention of a relatively small number of wealthy aristocrats. All the attention that goes to pop music? If pop music ceased to exist, that attention wouldn't suddenly go to art music, it would go to TV/video games/etc. It's essentially taking the place of a variety of folk and functional music forms (it's mostly dance music, which accompanies a form of mating ritual essentially). The musicians that are going to pursue serious music will still do so, it's not like they're getting sucked into making bad music.
Art music required educated listeners capable of focusing their attention for significant stretches of time. Listeners must have educated ears that are sensitive to musical subtlety, and also an awareness of the range and depth of the musical tradition to which they are listening.
Popular music, in contrast, aims to provide simple satisfaction without requiring reference to a larger context (I'm not say this is necessarily a bad thing, or that pop music hasn't often risen above that, just that it must function at least in that way or it won't be popular). Cynical pop music exploits the lack of a larger context by simply reiterating clichés, in the assumption that the target audience is too young/naive/ignorant to realize how superficial and vapid the music sounds to anyone who's listened to a bigger range of music. Again, there's a lot of great pop music out there, made by artists who are able to satisfy its demands while maintaining originality, creativity and depth (an immense accomplishment in my opinion--it's much more difficult to make sophisticated music for an unsophisticated audience than for a sophisticated audience, since the music has to work on multiple levels).

While i'm not going to downplay the problems of shorter attention spans, etc. I think the best thing art music has going for it is that everyone gets older, and they tend to look for deeper music when they do. Not everyone, of course (not everyone really cares about music), but enough people. Not to mention that the more the East imports Western pop culture, the more there will be a reaction to it, encouraging people to embrace the old forms and keep them alive.

eliot - 6-19-2008 at 12:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Sherko Dakouri

I don't know if Western classical music is a tiny bit better than before now, but what I know for sure is that it's in a miserable situation. I read in a statistic that some 90 % of sold CDs were of popular music. Thanks again!


Classical music has never enjoyed a situation where it was financially self-sufficient. It has always required considerable amounts of patronage in order to operate. This is true in both Europe and throughout the former Ottoman Empire, currently and historically. With the demise of aristrocratic and court patronage systems, classical music had to "fend for itself" in a free market. Universities became the outpost - and a new form of patronage - for classical (or, perhaps, "unpopular" music), but even that has weakened as universities are operating more as businesses and expect to see a ROI (return on investment, financial) on funding put into arts.
Quote:
Originally posted by BrianThe music industry has always been focused on selling music to kids, while art musical culture has been about adult tastes. Art music has never been big business. For the most part, all classical music forms are the result of the attention of a relatively small number of wealthy aristocrats. All the attention that goes to pop music? If pop music ceased to exist, that attention wouldn't suddenly go to art music, it would go to TV/video games/etc.

Close, but you give too much credit to the music industry. They have been in the business of selling advertising (radio, tv ads) since the 1920s. The rest is a big spectacle that they hope doesn't generate more losses than advertising revenues bring in.

The future of Arabic, Turkish, Kurdish, Yezidi, Laz, Armenian, Iranian, ... classical music depends on wealthy patrons. Each member of this forum should actively pursue some multi-millionaire and make it their quest for 2008-9 to coerce them into donating a sizable sum of money to the preservation of such art. I'm not joking, at all. These musics never have and never will thrive in the free market.

Sherko Dakouri - 6-19-2008 at 12:49 PM

Hello Brian!

Thanks for your reply. First of all, I didn't say that musicians "can't" play traditional music the way they want, they "can", no one is going to put them in prison for this. But I meant that they shouldn't. Can you imagine playing Beethoven's fifth symphony (or any other Western classical work for that matter) with a synthesiser and getting a good result?

Secondly, I don't like the term "art music," it's as though other forms are silly or "not art."

Thirdly, what I mean by "danger" is not that these musical traditions become totally obsolete (that will be a disaster!), rather, it's them becoming some sort of an elitist music that a very narrow circle (mostly musicians) understands and enjoys. That's somehow the case of modern and contemporary Western classical music. Do you know anyone who listens to Boulez or mere enjoyment? Maybe there is a few, but that's simply not enough for me. Some blame the music itself, which is overly intellectual and "ugly," but that's another problem.

I do agree with you in some points, but think that to say that people should wait until they get old in order to understand classical music is totally misleading. If this is going to be the case, this music will ultimately die, and very quickly. The reason is that this will make these traditions into a sort of "elderly music," which will discourage young people from learning and playing it, which will in turn cause its death. And then why depriving youngsters from this beautiful and rewarding music? Shouldn't we guide them toward appreciating it? Furthurmore, I don't see the forms I mentioned above (Pesrev, semai, fasil, tahmilah, maqam al-Iraqi) popular even among older people..

I don't say that I want 100% of the population to listen to classical music, 50% is actually enough for me, and I beleive that people who are mentally and emotionally prepared for listening to it really make up to this percentage. But I suspect the percentage of people who listen to classical music (in the Middle East) even to be 10 %.

Christian1095 - 6-19-2008 at 02:51 PM

Most pop music sucks... sure... I'll buy into that... I think there are two types of modern American Pop music (1) music with a message and (2) music that is attempting to sell an image. The vast majority of Pop music (at least in America) is about selling an image and not about sending a message. I think innovation happens when a few really good musicians stand out or do something new (Elvis, the Beatles, Om Kalthoum) But for everyone that stands out, there are countless others that are mediocre imitations at best. (and usually suck)

America is destroying world music... that's a bit of a stretch... American foreign and domestic policy has made more situations go from bad to worse that we have room to list here... and we probably have a big hand in global warming... But I don't think you can lay the blame for the eradication of world music on her doorstep. They say, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink"

Classical music isn't that appealing to most Americans either.... As Brian pointed out... everyone gets older and as they expand their minds, they expand their tastes... I got into this music because I really like the tone of the instrument. Part of achieving a level of competence involves learning the form... but that should not be confused with the ultimate goal of music to express those things that words just can't.... I didn't get into the Oud so I could learn Maqam Rast, quarter tones, or the samaii rhythm... That's just the structure... I got into this instrument because it has a beautiful tone that pulls at my heart. Now as I learn more about the instrument and the music, I'm really getting into these things... but at night, I don't wish I could play exactly like Farido... I practice so that I can better express myself within this art form. I want to play like me... The beauty of musical expression is to convey YOUR emotions, not that of a dead composer. Perhaps I might find a Hamza el-Din song that really speaks to me, and through intonation and phrasing I make it mine.... and in that manner I express myself through the form... but to only seek to play the piece EXACTLY as it appears is to kill its soul... at least in my opinion.

Out of curiosity, exactly who is depriving youngsters of classical music? TV and Radio doesn't play a lot classical because it doesn't sell... I think the question we should ask is this: Is there a way to make the music more appealing to them? For example, the Leonardo di Caprio version of Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet was extremely popular and presented the story's themes in a way that was understandable to the masses. So I would say that if you can get kids engaged by playing Beethoven's fifth symphony using trashcans and an Oud...then go for it. Ultimately, I would be happy if more kids had exposure to all different forms of music. Not just classical, but Jazz and the blues, Reggae and Heavy Metal and Gospel, Lebanese folk tunes, Japanese classical pieces, etc... And if they want to make a Japanese version of a Nassam 3alyna el hawa, then go for it.... beats having them play video games....

Music has to adapt to survive.. You can't put a camel in the ocean and expect it to grow flippers. And when it fails to grow those flippers, you can't blame the ocean... And you also can't blame the camel if they're not "mentally or emotionally prepared for it"

Regards

SamirCanada - 6-19-2008 at 03:20 PM

My comments will be short...

I am rather young all things considered at 24 years old... I loved classical arabic music since the age of 17 where I used to listen to arabic pop mainly before that. Am I the exception to the rule?
I took the time to appreciate classical music because I thought It was important to understand what my grand father was talking about when he spoke of Oum Koulthoum and her music.
Without this forum I would know absolutely nothing about classical forms of music such as semaii's, longa, bashraf etc.... no body actualy knows what I am talking about when I mention these terms in my community. I know they appreciate the sounds of the instruments and the like the pieces I play for them but don't ask my parents or anyone else who I play for to tell me this was longa farahfaza composed by Al Sumbati. They are not educated in music and there is no reason why they would be knowledgeable since all the do is listen and enjoy. No need for them to know the theory.

Also I graduated university in International Commerce. Which is fine but really I should have been an engineer if you ask my father. If I would have chosen to study music as my true passion it was.... It would have been hell on my parents and I would have been pretty much a shame on my family.
I am saying hell about my parents but really I know for a fact that they love me playing the oud and they are so proud. Fact of the matter is its fine as a hobby but its terrible for a living.
That is the case for 99% of Arab families if not 100%.
how do you expect for musical traditions to be kept alive when the learning of them is discouraged at the source.?

Christian1095 - 6-19-2008 at 03:52 PM

Samir, you're not alone... I know a lot of US musicians who have to work day jobs to feed thier hobby... In that respect, unless you're studying music at University... there just isn't a lot of ways to make a living playing... Those who do are very lucky... and few and far between...

Brian Prunka - 6-19-2008 at 05:22 PM

Hey Samir,

That fact that the music industry primarily makes pop music to appeal to kids of course doesn't mean there aren't exceptions. But most of those exceptions are people who are going to take some more significant interest in music, either playing (even as a hobby) or some other way (writing, perhaps). 24 isn't that young, anyway, by the standards of the record companies. 12-21 is probably the biggest market, especially for pop music.

Christian, i disagree about the image/message dichotomy. What is Tom Waits doing? He certainly has an image, and I guess he has a message too, if the message is "hey, people sure are interesting." But it seems to me that he's about writing great songs and performing them in interesting ways with terrific musicians. The Beatles? no message, really, and definitely image-conscious, but ultimately about writing songs. If there's a dichotomy, it's between people who are in the music business because they want to make music and people who make music because they want to be in the music business.

Sherko, just to clarify, you said :
Quote:

No one has the right to perform it in manners or with instruments that don't belong to its composer's era


I'm saying everyone does have that right. Incidentally, have you ever heard the soundtrack to "A Clockwork Orange"? Very interesting performance of western classical music using synthesizers. Is it an improvement? not as a self-sufficient work (in my opinion), but in the context of the film, arguably yes.

I used the term art music specifically because it points to a fundamental distinction regarding the purpose of the music. Whether you like it or not, some music has a function independent of its musical content, while other music has function only in relation to its content. That doesn't mean its better or more beautiful or meaningful or whatever. A lot of people would argue the opposite--that art music is actually inferior to functional music, since it doesn't serve a "useful" purpose and is less obviously integral to a culture. Certainly the music of a Gnawa ceremony is a good example of the power and beauty of functional music? or a Bach chorale? I'm open to other terms, but it's sort of beside the point, the difference exists whatever we call it. Comparing pop music, which serves a practical purpose, to classical music, which does not, is not going to get you very far. No one is going to dance to a Samai and pick up girls listening to a Bashraf, no matter how much you educate people.
Classical music has always been elitist and for a narrow circle of aficionados, and that's okay. The aficionados are the ones who have preserved it thus far and I think they're probably going to continue. I'm sure some people criticized Abdel Wahab and Oum Kalthoum when they were new for not being "classical", yet most people today regard their contributions as progress.

Eliot, I'm interested in your assertion that the music business exists to sell advertising. Can you explain yourself? Obviously the radio industry exists to sell advertising, as does the music press. But they sell a lot of advertising TO the record companies (although the radio stations don't call it advertising). The record companies didn't really exist in modern form until Frank Sinatra showed them that you could make a significant amount of money selling records, and they didn't really take off until Elvis showed you could make a LOT of money selling records. And who are we selling most of those records to? Kids.
Touring has always been more lucrative than record sales for most artists (except those who wrote a lot of hit songs, because they got the publishing $, which is why the Beatles didn't bother to tour after their first few LPs).
But the record companies made a lot of money from record sales (and from the aforementioned hit songs, of which they usually controlled 50% of the publishing). I don't see how the record companies make any significant amount of money from advertising. Radio and television both exist to sell advertising, sure, but that is irrespective of their content--talk radio exists to sell advertising, too. The music business and the advertising business certainly have a symbiotic relationship, but they don't exist because of one another, as far as I can tell.

okay, enough rambling for now.:D

Sherko Dakouri - 6-19-2008 at 10:49 PM

Dear Brian Prunka

I simply don't think that classical music has always been for the elite. Just read about Vienna in Mahler's days or before that, or any of the larger European cities at those times, and you'll know how "popular" it was.

About the right to play classical music with modern instruments, I repeat that the results will always be less than sufficient.

Dear Christian1095

You're right when you say that "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."
It's simply true. No one has forced us to be overwhelmed by the influence of American pop music. And this is why I'm asking the question of what we can do. If it were all the Americans' fault, we couldn't have done anything.

I don't say that we shoul play a composition "exactly" as its composer did (if he has made any recordings of it,) but I do say that we shouldn't play that compositions in norms that are totally alien to what the composer had in his mind.. That would just not be what he wanted..

I disagree with you about playing a Beethoven symphony with an oud.. This will again simplify matters and deprive those youngsters from the real beauty of that art. Instead of simplifying things, let us tech kids to taste music that is higher in meaning and soul.

gregorypause - 6-20-2008 at 12:40 AM

Very interesting discussion.
Quote:
Originally posted by Sherko Dakouri

I do agree with you in some points, but think that to say that people should wait until they get old in order to understand classical music is totally misleading.


Sherko, I agree that young people should be encouraged to listen to classical music (and other traditional forms of music). Here in Hungary they teach folk songs as compulsory material at schools. However, as a 13-14 year old you cannot comprehend some of the emotional depth in classical music just like I could not comprehend most of poetry I had to learn. You have to grow up emotionally and experience life to understand poetry/music or any other form of music.

So, we should encourage it, but i think our efforts will only bear fruit on the long run.

gregorypause - 6-20-2008 at 12:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Christian1095
I got into this instrument because it has a beautiful tone that pulls at my heart. Now as I learn more about the instrument and the music, I'm really getting into these things... but at night, I don't wish I could play exactly like Farido... I practice so that I can better express myself within this art form. I want to play like me... The beauty of musical expression is to convey YOUR emotions, not that of a dead composer. Perhaps I might find a Hamza el-Din song that really speaks to me, and through intonation and phrasing I make it mine.... and in that manner I express myself through the form... but to only seek to play the piece EXACTLY as it appears is to kill its soul... at least in my opinion.
Regards


Man, I am there with you all the way. I have no Arabic background, yet when I hear the oud, my heart just vibrates with the strings. That's what matters: the emotion - that it expresses something you feel. Not to say that the piece of music has to be original, it could have been composed by someone else.

.. and yes Hamza El Din's Helalisa (Nubian Sons) is one those songs ;)

charlie oud - 6-20-2008 at 01:49 AM

Hi Sherko, (upon reflection) I would like to appologise if my earlier reply is a little abrupt or cheeky. I'm glad others have responded in more concise ways which reflect the level of interest and concern around the issues you have raised. In all honesty I have become war weary with this subject, I've been in this movie a thousand times, as a musician for the past 35 years and as a former teacher of music at college. As a result, for me, music is another universe, I go there every time I play, feel its beauty, express myself as best I can and return, always looking forward to my next visit. Debates of this nature no longer hold my attention but I sincerely wish you well in your quest. C.

Christian1095 - 6-20-2008 at 07:13 AM

Sherko,

I think where we differ is in the steps one should take to get kids into music... but ultimately I think our views on the desired outcome are pretty close.... where we differ is in method.... I think the more you try to push classical music on them, the more they are likely to resist. But I think if you make it accessible to them, they will discover it on thier own... For me, I really started exporing music when I was 14 and my father got me a bass guitar.... Of course, I played a lot of Iron Maiden, Led Zeppelin and Ozzy, but then I later got into reggae... I would also try to figure out the meoldies to Mozart and TV theme songs too..... I totally rocked to the theme of "Night Court" (which got me listening to Jazz and so on...)

So when I heard an Oud I said to myself -- hey this has strings... I bet I could learn it too since notes are notes (of course at the time I didn't know anything about the Maqam system... and for the most part, I'm still so completely ignorant about the structure of this music that it's a little disheartening at times...) but because I was taught that learning music is cool and was allowed to find it for myself it's still a part of my life now at 34.

So the point I'm getting at is that the road to appreciating music isn't always a straight line... and kids should be allowed to wander and find thier own way... I have to believe that music enriches our spiritual lives in some way... and that by playing music, we have the opportunity to express ourselves in ways that other people can't... which I think is pretty cool...

The important thing is to get them playing an instrument... Kids will first find the music they are connected to... It might be Hip-Hop and Brittany Spears (ugh..) But once they discover that music has a soul of it's own, they'll go out and discover the classics.... But I think there is a danger anytime you discourage thier creative process.... If they want to play Bach on harmonica, let them and encourage them... because it will eventually lead them to an appreciation of the original.

DaveH - 6-20-2008 at 12:29 PM

Sherko, I don't think it matters where the influences come from - whether it's western classical or anything else. What matters is how they're incorporated. If I hear another rendition of another mozart symphony for oud and orchestra, I think I may well break something. Flamenco oud is another big no-no for me. And (though I may be putting my head on the block here with our Lebanese friends) I really don't find much of interest in Marcel Khalife's attempts to fit arabic music into the Western Classical mould, because I don't see any original music involved - just some OK melodies, clumsy orchestration and tweaking of the nationalist heartstrings. Even Munir Bashir (though he is my all time idol) got a bit derivative sometimes with his flamenco excursions or new-age style overly dwelling on simple melodies. But say Anouar Brahem manages sometimes to incorporate a wide variety of influences with his own style and the result is really moving music. All this of course is IM-very-H-O.

Speaking of the influence of Western classical music on Arabic music, I'm just hazarding here, but could it be possible that this is where the rot started? For example, stave notation is very useful for us foreigners in learning a music in an unfamiliar tradition, but it completely changes the system of transmission and performance. Another strong influence of Western classical music has been the standardisation - of Maqams, of learning (viz the academies set up around the arab world in the early 20thC) and of microtones - did it all start to go wrong with the Cairo conference in 1932? Why did arabic musicians (or more probably arabic academics and Western ethnomusicologists) feel the need to standardise and notate? This is not an area I know much about, but couldn't you argue that there was some sort of undervaluing of the oral tradition, that it was seen as inferior to the standardised, notated Western tradition, and that, as a result of this "inferiority complex", arabic music got sucked into the orbit of Western values and down the long road that leads to Haifa Wehbe (but also for example to some very original rai music). I know this is an easily made and shallow argument in some ways - I'm sure it's been made by many a cultural theorist (by the way, for better or worse, it's the 30th anniversary of the publication of Edward Said's Orientalism) - and I'm not saying that any kind of hybridisation is bad. But I do think it's a bit simple to say that Western classical music is some kind of lofty art form that could do not wrong in influencing other traditions, whereas commercial pop is the source of all evil.

katakofka - 6-20-2008 at 02:45 PM

Hi Sherko
I guess that this fear from the western music is totally unjustified in my point of vue.
When sayyid darwish did "tol3it ya ma7la nuurha shams el shammuseh" he was definitevely influenced by western music. Look to that song, now it's a folklore.
When Abdel wahaad and Farid el atrashe introduced the valse, the latino music into their work (think about albi w mofta7o, or gafnuhu 3allama el ghazal) journalists and critics were not happy about these changes. Also when abdel wahaab introduce the electric guitar into his music (with omar khorchid) people where chocked initially.
The bottom line is musicians such sayed darwish, abdel wahab, farid el atrash (just to name few) tried to make something new and I guess they succed. If they had the fear that you're talking about we wouldn't have such great music from these musicians.
I'll leave you with these 2 videos, one for ziad rahbani and the other for Trio taksim
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyQKflHXxLs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iubuP8kq3s&feature=related
look at the influence of the western music in these 2 videos. You may like it or not but there is something new, unusual.
Music evolves, Music is the language of the universe, you cannot hide it or keep it away from anyone. Every one has the right to try and only the future will tell us if these tries are justified.
Best
Souheil

carpenter - 6-20-2008 at 02:55 PM

So - and I may be missing some salient point - does this mean Simon Shaheen should drop the fiddle because he isn't playing European Art Music? Somebody please explain the gist, here, and soon; I must've got lost in the weeds.

(As the initial thought may have ...)

katakofka - 6-20-2008 at 03:23 PM

No carpenter, you missed the point. However, have you heard Blue Fame CD for simon? if not take a look
http://www.amazon.com/Fantasie-for-Oud-String-Quartet/dp/B0013CPH9I...
No classical takasim in the CD ! he was trying to bring something new in that CD.

carpenter - 6-20-2008 at 04:02 PM

<< However, have you heard Blue Flame CD for Simon? >>

Oh, yes! I've had that CD for several years - play it a lot, I like it a lot. (Well, most of it.) I was reading this:

<< No one has the right to perform it in manners or with instruments that don't belong to its composer's era >>

... and that got my back up a little. I'll go back and re-read things, straighten myself out, maybe. Could be my hearing is too Western ...

I have to say, even Mozart was new and strange once. He composed for what was available to him at the time. Yes? Technology advances - think of modern pianos vs pianofortes. (Am I headed for a soapbox and rant? Uh-oh.)

Sherko Dakouri - 6-20-2008 at 04:08 PM

Dear Katakofta
Taking things from the West is not creating something new, it's simply imitation. Although we could benifit from certain things in Western music to a certain extent. What I fear is that we lose our culture completly, as we are already on the way. I'm not against world fusion. However, I think it should remain secondary in importance to the main traditions. Anyway, what the musicians you mentioned did remains controversial, and it may be totally discarded someday. The only thing we can do is to wait and see. I'm not at all against creative interactions between cultures, but musicians must know the limits and not let other cultures swallow their own culture.

Dear Carpenter
Not at all. I previously said that some Western instruments can be incorporated into Middle Eastern bands, and the violin is now a formal member of the Arabic takht.

katakofka - 6-20-2008 at 04:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Sherko Dakouri
...Anyway, what the musicians you mentioned did remains controversial, and it may be totally discarded someday...

"tol3it ya ma7la nurha" discarded someday? well, this song was a total inovation from sayeed darwish. At that time (1920s) music was based on Adwar mainly. "Tol3it ya ma7la nurha" was composed in the mid 20s. When it will be discarded?? The song and the tradition of sayyed darwish remains till our days.
Think also about " ya zahratan fi khayali" for Farid. This is a pure tango music. Is that song will be discarded too? I don't see that, in opposite, it's a folklore now.

Sherko Dakouri - 6-20-2008 at 04:29 PM

Dear DaveH!

There in the Middle East, we are very backward people. Everything there sucks, including culture and music. The governments' sole preoccupation is to steel money. Karl Marx once said: "They can't represent themselves, they have to be represented." Indeed, we don't know how to deal with our culture and how to preserve it and make it flourish. In many instances we don't see its beauty, and we keep comparing it to the Western cultures and wanting to standardise it according to Western norms.. I think that in Oriental traditions, recordings should take the place of notation, which should be regarded only as a "necessary evil," as Habib Hassan Touma put it.

katakofka - 6-20-2008 at 11:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Sherko Dakouri

There in the Middle East, we are very backward people. Everything there sucks, including culture and music.

The Decline of interest in classical musical traditions.Got my attention in the title. BUT..why do you want to preserve the middle east culture if you consider middle eastern people backwarded, sucks in their culture and music?
Dear member, middle eastern music is florishing these days better than it was 50 years ago. Just check how many non middle eastern members belong to this forum.

Sherko Dakouri - 6-21-2008 at 12:53 AM

Katakofta,

The fact that Middle Eastern people are now backward doesn't mean that I should hate them or hate their culture.. On the contrary, it makes me more determined to do something about this. It's really a joy to have non-Middle Easterners here, but this shouldn't make you turn a blind eye on the fact that authentic classical music is almost dead in many parts of the Middle East.

eliot - 6-21-2008 at 10:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Brian Prunka
Eliot, I'm interested in your assertion that the music business exists to sell advertising. Can you explain yourself? Obviously the radio industry exists to sell advertising, as does the music press. But they sell a lot of advertising TO the record companies (although the radio stations don't call it advertising). The record companies didn't really exist in modern form until Frank Sinatra showed them that you could make a significant amount of money selling records, and they didn't really take off until Elvis showed you could make a LOT of money selling records. And who are we selling most of those records to? Kids.
Touring has always been more lucrative than record sales for most artists (except those who wrote a lot of hit songs, because they got the publishing $, which is why the Beatles didn't bother to tour after their first few LPs).
But the record companies made a lot of money from record sales (and from the aforementioned hit songs, of which they usually controlled 50% of the publishing). I don't see how the record companies make any significant amount of money from advertising. Radio and television both exist to sell advertising, sure, but that is irrespective of their content--talk radio exists to sell advertising, too. The music business and the advertising business certainly have a symbiotic relationship, but they don't exist because of one another, as far as I can tell.


The Beatles and Frank Sinatra are not the best example, since they are not paradigmatic for large pop acts. 1st: tours often lose money, as do records, but merchandising (monogrammed underwear) and licensing songs to film, tv, and for ads is where the money is really made in the music industry. Major record labels own publishing rights for works that they produce. It's that circled P symbol on CDs which symbolizes the vast earning power of major labels, as it entitles the label to 50% (or more) of every post-release use of that recording for any purpose.

When I say that advertising is really the purview of record labels and popular music, it's in 3 facets that I make the assertion:
  1. the use of music to sell radio advertising (and the odd yet symbiotic relationship between radio and record labels)
  2. the use of music in ads to sell products (and the odd yet symbiotic relationship between musical acts and advertising firms)
  3. the use of recorded cds, tours, and promotion as a vehicle for creating wide recognition of the recorded musical work as a potential commodity for selling tv or radio ads (advertising their wares to be used for advertising)

Furthermore, another aspect of the music industry that features prominently in the potential relationships between artist and label has been the function of record labels in a diversified, vertically-integrated transnational corporation including beverage sales, appliance manufacturing, and weapons design and production. Record labels lose money, inherently. The loss is a tax boon for the investing company, but is typically made up for through non-sales recouping (publishing revenues). However, the loss-nature affects artists' relationships with their labels. Successful touring artists can get dropped since they don't fit in with the businesses' contemporaneous interests, while entirely incompetent artists who don't sell are brought in to even out the financials. It's a very strange world.

eliot - 6-21-2008 at 11:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Sherko Dakouri
Katakofta,

The fact that Middle Eastern people are now backward doesn't mean that I should hate them or hate their culture.. On the contrary, it makes me more determined to do something about this. It's really a joy to have non-Middle Easterners here, but this shouldn't make you turn a blind eye on the fact that authentic classical music is almost dead in many parts of the Middle East.

It's not uncommon for people of Middle Eastern descent living, for the most part outside of the Middle East, to view the Middle East as backwards. This sentiment is much less commonly shared with people actually living day-to-day in the Middle East, who take a very different view of matters.

To provide a "devil's advocate" viewpoint, but one which was frequently mentioned to me quite a bit while I was working in Turkey, Anatolia is home to amazing ruins that appear to only attract foreigners. Why are Turkish citizens not interested in the archaeological ruins contained on their own soil? The answer is that they have no choice other than to live in contemporary Turkey, not the ancient Turkey constructed by the outside as a representation of what true Turkey once was (or, perhaps, might have been). Such ruins have no value in people's actual lives - they make for remarkably uncomfortable homes, they have no electricity nor running water nor satellite TV, they are in short entirely unpractical. They provide tourist revenue, but most tourists don't actually want to see or interact with Turks anyways, so why bother going or caring?

Your "authentic classical music" is the archaeological ruins of Anatolia. What it does, what it means, what it represents, what it expresses is of little relevance to people who live in that territorial area. I disagree with you about the backwardness you mention. People all over the world actively choose music that expresses things of relevance to them. Mor ve Ötesi and Nil Karaibrahimgil, for Turkish youth, are much more fitting expressions of the experience of urban life in 21st century Turkey than Dede Efendi or Meragi. For you, "dead" musics have a relevance, perhaps due to the European romanticization of dead things which permeates a European positionality.

However, "all is not lost," Alevi youth find that modern interpretations of Alevi traditional music (which are probably better considered as a "classical" or "art" music than a "folk tradition") are relevant, and attendance at Alevi gatherings and concerts is quite good. Several Islamic youth movements in Istanbul have gotten quite into Turkish classical musics, particular the ayin repertoire of the Mevlevi, and one finds attendance at Ottoman art music concerts and enrollment in private lessons (ud, kanun, ney in particular) increasing. In both cases, Western interest in the art forms helped create new local means for rejuvenating interest in the repertoire, but in neither case did Western aesthetic descriptions help in the revivals. It wasn't the "classical-ness" of the music that sold contemporary youth on the music, but instead, the ability of the music to be re-made, to be relevant to lives and concerns that are contemporary.

JamesOud - 6-22-2008 at 01:24 AM

Hello All,

Just want to start by saying, I hate 'Blue Flame' by Shaheen. Its over produced overdubbed garbage with the corniest fusion I have ever heard with soprano sax and flute. Theres nothing new about it, its just some corny cliched jazz with a little oud. The only nice track is with oud and nay.
If you have people within the tradition doing this sort of stuff and the West listening to it, what will they think?

I think Nasseer Shamma is the same, he destroys tradition with his Ukelele stye, chords and technique, which even when he plays traditional pieces are usually undecipherable...

So if we have young oud players looking up to players like these and slowly slowly phasing out tradition. I think the tradition is there and if you want it you can have it. It largely to do with upbringing, if you're surrounded by it then children and people will absorb it.
I actually think there is a revival of classical arab instruments amongst the young and a zealousness in their identity, I think it will grow and grow, but unfortunately and i hope its not destroyed furtherby these so called 'oud innovators' that only imitate the West and dont grow musically. Im into change as long as it really is a change or innovation...not for the worst ofcourse...

Here are two young boys doing us proud! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2-95oJ50IM

Always honest,
James

Sherko Dakouri - 6-22-2008 at 05:13 AM

Hello JamesOud!

Thank you very much. I totally concur. Preserving the tradition while making real innovations in it is not out of hatred to the West. The West has a fantastic musical tradition, and it deserves all love and respect from our side (I'm actually trained in Western classical music and have a huge library of it with all its eras and schools.) What we want is to preserve the beautiful diversity among world cultures that's now being threatened by our musicians' shallow understanding of globalisation and what it means.

Eliot,

Thanks for your replies. I have to tell you that I'm not that Middle Easterner who lives comfortably in the West and makes wrong judgments about his homeland. I was raised in Syria, and I spend almost 3 month every year there. I know a lot about how it is to live there permenantly. I have also been in other countries of the region.

Of course many backward people don't know they are backward, and besides, Turkey is somehow better than the other countries in the Middle East. And then, the comparison between living in ruins and listening to classical music is terrible. In music, the "new" doesn't delete the "old." Classical music" means that anyone at any time can listen to it and enjoy it. That's what the word "classical" means. And then this music is not "dead." I can clearly see that can't appreciate it, and thus you are not in a position to make a sound judgment about this topic. Emotions and feeling are timeless, as is their expression. Just look at how quickly a pop song falls into oblivion. I agree with you that music should reflect the feeling and circumstances of its era, but without the classical traditions we have no solid background to rely on.

ALAMI - 6-22-2008 at 06:57 AM

Dear Sherko,

To start, just a small friendly remark: when someone posts something on a forum it becomes a public discussion and the poster has no right to decide who is entitled to respond or not, of course anyone can agree or disagree on the topic but we usually don't judge each other's ability of a "sound judgment".
So maybe before emitting a radical (and quick) judgment yourself about Eliot, you can just click those small links under the guy's signature and have a look at his background.

Autocracy, radical judgments, fundamentalisms are among the main reasons of "backward-ism" in the Middle East and it is more than normal that the lack of a healthy cultural climate would reflect on all aspects of our cultural life including music.

Defending Oriental classical music is a good thing you are doing and of course your intentions are good but do we need yet another extreme, a "musical Salafism" ?

katakofka - 6-22-2008 at 07:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Sherko Dakouri
Katakofta,

The fact that Middle Eastern people are now backward doesn't mean that I should hate them or hate their culture.. On the contrary, it makes me more determined to do something about this. It's really a joy to have non-Middle Easterners here, but this shouldn't make you turn a blind eye on the fact that authentic classical music is almost dead in many parts of the Middle East.


I really have a problem understanding your point regarding "Authentic classical music". I don't get it.
Do you mean Bashraf, samaa3i, muwachahaat forms? These are the authentic classical music you are talking about? If this is the case, since when middle eastern people cares about these form of music. Bashraf , sama3i ...etc were always played in internal circle of musicians, in academies, in oud teaching and so on. These forms have never been popular or rendered recorded for a big deal of public; and there is a reason for their "classical" unpopularity; pure music has never been appreciated anywhere in the world and into the arab-middle eastern world in particular. It is caled "silent music" "musi2a saamita", how could it be silent if music is played? "Silent" because no one is singing !
Muwachahaat were more apreciated since there is singing there, and many singers, musicians, have recorded many muwachahat. Here is one of my favorite conbination of muwacha7aat, recording in the mid-60s by el rahbani brothers. Fairuz and wadii3 el safi are singing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMUl9iM10uw&feature=related
I am sure most middle-eastern musicians have passed through that experience. Someone visits you and saw the Oud at your home:
Vistor: woow, this is a Oud, do you play it?
Musician: Yes
Visitor: do you sing too?
Musician: No
Visitor: but if you play Oud you should sing
Musician: Ouchhhhhhhhh (deep inside the head).

Why blaming the west if music without singing is not appreciated in the middle-east? Neither here, I don't get you.

Sherko Dakouri - 6-22-2008 at 07:20 AM

Hello ALAMI

Anyone who compares classical musical traditions with - in his view - "useless" ruins, certainly has no appreciation of that art form, regardless of his background. To give you a closer example, can we claim that Beethoven's Ninth is dead and compare it to ruins? That would be a cultural crime. It's a timeless classic that will never cease to thrill us unless we live in anera of total barbarism.

You wouldn't have called me a fundamentalist had you read what I wrote on the ways in which we can benifit from Western music in general. A culture that doesn't absorb other influences will probably be boring and even dead. I wrote: "Read Henry George Farmer to know how much the West took from the Islamic civilisation in fields including music. Most Western instruments have Middle Eastern origins. In this respect, I'm not against adopting the cello or bass for instance. Some harmony at a few places can be beautiful, and counterpoint can be used even more.. Making the existant forms "bigger" like those in Western classical music won't hurt either." And I add that we can also benifit from the colourful orchestration of Western classical music. Can you call me a fundamentalist after this? Regards

eliot - 6-22-2008 at 12:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Sherko Dakouri
Of course many backward people don't know they are backward, and besides, Turkey is somehow better than the other countries in the Middle East. And then, the comparison between living in ruins and listening to classical music is terrible. In music, the "new" doesn't delete the "old." Classical music" means that anyone at any time can listen to it and enjoy it. That's what the word "classical" means. And then this music is not "dead." I can clearly see that can't appreciate it, and thus you are not in a position to make a sound judgment about this topic. Emotions and feeling are timeless, as is their expression. Just look at how quickly a pop song falls into oblivion. I agree with you that music should reflect the feeling and circumstances of its era, but without the classical traditions we have no solid background to rely on.


I think you almost entirely misunderstood what I mean, largely by confusing what I enjoy/believe for myself, and what I've observed contemporary Turks enjoy/believe for themselves.

I don't view Meragi and music composed before I was born as something beyond appreciation or value; I actually actively perform these repertoires and have for over 15 years. I have taught the performance practice of this music to students in the US and Turkey. It is with considerable effort and personal expense that I have learned about Turkish traditional, art, classical etc. performance practices, repertoires, makams, and music history. I also have extensive background in Western music historiography, having studied with Richard Taruskin and others, and thus am in a fairly good position to compare the "construction" of "classical" music in Western/Central Europe with the later "construction" project that happened in Turkey.

What I am saying is that the entire premise of the way you approach the concept of classical music is potentially flawed, at least in relation with your stated aims and objectives - it is also an entirely western conception of musical value. No music is inherently timeless nor inherently classical. The emotions and feelings that the music was able to convey and express several hundred years ago are not the ones, typically, that are expressed now in performances of the "same" work.

That doesn't mean that contemporary performance of old works is without value or a waste of time. What it does mean is that the music has to be continuously reinterpreted. I don't mean playing the tunes on synthesizers or other immediate modernizations of the music (though that could be one technique). But the meaning/feelings of the music has to be actively made contemporary and relevant. Music does not express things by itself. Expression results from a relationship between performer and audience, which happens immediately and contemporaneously (either at the moment of performance or the moment of audition), not in some imagined past.

When performance of "classics" gets relegated to an archaeological tour of what once was a "great Empire," classical music becomes, literally, an archaeological ruin. It is some historical oddity that attracts tourists to Turkey - tourists who have no interest in the contemporary, living culture, but in an imagined past. It doesn't have to be this way. However, you, me, we all have to understand how it is that old music becomes, alternately, perceived either as a cultural ruin or (much better) as a cultural rejuvenation.

Please understand, I mention this not to demean your interests in promoting older repertoires, as we both share similar interests, and from reading some of your other posts, it sounds like we enjoy some of the exact same musicians and styles of music as well. Concern about the "decaying" state of public interest in "serious" music is not unique to discussions of older Middle Eastern musical repertoires; it's been a hot topic in Western Europe, America, India, and elsewhere for much longer. There have been many failed attempts to lure "backwards" peoples to music that they allegedly fail to appreciate.

I've been responding to your posts in the hopes I provide food for thought that helps you more efficiently achieve your stated aims... to reiterate, I think you need to also put effort into understanding why it is that people in the Middle East (Syria, in your case) have made the musical choices that they have. That may require you to temporarily suspend your perceptions of "backwardness." With that information, you may be able to better target your campaign...

Sherko Dakouri - 6-22-2008 at 05:40 PM

Hey Eliot!

I'm not that kind of person who defends himself to the end despite knowing that he's wrong. If I find myself wrong, I'll openly admit it.

Your idea about classical musics not surviving in free markets may be true, but I think it's the governments and not any multi-millionaires who should support the preservation of these musics as national treasures. I'm talking about democratic governments of course, not like those regimes that you find in the Middle East who reflect the current state of mind of its people.

I still insist that classical music is not dead and can still be relevant. I actually don't think there is any music we can call "dead." A gave an example about Beethoven's Ninth - and countless classics by the way. Do you think it's dead? How shoud it be reinterprited?

eliot - 6-22-2008 at 06:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Sherko Dakouri
I'm not that kind of person who defends himself to the end despite knowing that he's wrong. If I find myself wrong, I'll openly admit it.


No, you appear to be the kind of person who has no hesitation on making public judgments against people you have never met; who uses internet posting as a tool for self-aggrandizement but hides under the shroud of academic interest; and who feels that they already know everything there is to know about music and aesthetics, in the present, in antiquity, and every time in between. You're not the first with such an attitude to wander into these forums, and I doubt you will be the last. But I, for one, am done with this mess of ASCII that might have been a constructive debate. I'm sure with your condescending attitude you'll be able to win millions from governments for preservations of classical relics and single-handedly save the world (particularly those backwards peoples) from bad Arab pop music.

Sherko Dakouri - 6-23-2008 at 01:54 AM

Hey Eliot

I apologise if I have said something wrong about you. Don't turn the debate into a personal quarrel. I really want this to be a constructive debate, and I want a person with your experience to be a part of that. Therefore, I'll raise these simple questions: 1. Is it really possible for any music to "die"? 2. How shoul the classical musical traditions of the Middle East be performed (give an example)? 3. Give some examples of some musicians whose music you belive embodies the soul of our era. ¤. How shoul our interaction with other musics of this world be? How much should we "take" and how much shoul we "preserve"? Give an example of the accepted limit. Regards.

JamesOud - 6-23-2008 at 01:53 PM

Hey Eliot and Sherko,

Make sure this doesnt happen ok...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEHnGQThm0s&feature=related

Light James

Christian1095 - 6-23-2008 at 02:58 PM

OK, so my limited arabic took me as far as "guitars (oud) are haram" and Crash... then some sort of sad song :(

I hope that girl can fight cause if she had broken my oud... :mad:

Sherko, do you dislike Arabs? Your tone implies that there is a good deal of resentment there. Not being Arab, I have a hard time 'getting' where you're coming from... I absolutly love America.. She is my home and I will always love her... I'm not too happy with a lot of our policies... but you take the good with the bad and you try to make it a little better every day... It's home :shrug:

To illustrate where I'm coming from.....

You said....
1. not like those regimes that you find in the Middle East who reflect the current state of mind of its people
2. we are very backward people. Everything there sucks, including culture and music.
3. if it were all the Americans' fault, we couldn't have done anything
4. Indeed, we don't know how to deal with our culture and how to preserve it and make it flourish

Which gives the impression that you feel...
1. Arabs are incapible of governing themselves... Especially with that quote from Marx
2. Don't like your own culture... what about your culture DO you like?
3. Not only do you not like your own culture, you feel 'The Arabs' are completely powerless against it...
4. More of "my culture sucks!"

It seems to me that either you're trying to purposefully upset people on the board, or you've decided to be completely insensitive to the feelings of others... You might be disgusted with the culture and music.... but I'm guessing there are others here who may very well be offended at such language.

So with all the negative comments, what about Arabic music do YOU think is critical to preserve and why... what does it give us? Why is the Samaii so special? And what have YOU done?

To answer my own questions...
I think Arabic music should be preserved so that future generations will be able to know more about thier own culture. Part of MY heritage is Irish and it's made my life a little richer to learn some celtic music... it helps me understand where my people come from.... I would imagine that if I was Palestinian, or Syrian, or Egyptian, the effect would be the same.

The Samaii is important to me because the structure and rhtym is totally alien.. so it's a stepping stone to better understanding the music....

What am I doing... Well, I'm learning the music of a foreign and alien culture. When friends come over, I'll play the Oud for them and they will know a little more about Middle Eastern music and perhaps look at the people and region with fewer stereotypes in thier mind.

So what's your response?

Tkoind - 6-23-2008 at 06:19 PM

I'm convinced that the best way to support and promote traditional instruments and music is to get out there and play. There are a lot of people who will fall in love with these sounds and traditions if they have the chance to be exposed to them.

For two years now in Tokyo we've been producing mixed ethnic events. We invite musicians, dancers, performers and visual artists to join in creating an evening of ethnic and ethnic inspired performance.

For example one night featured a Bulgarian band with Oud, Ney, Kaval, Rebak and more. Also on the bill, Traditional Japanese Okinawan dance, Persian and Silk Road music, Gypsy dance and Egyptian Belly Dance.

These events are drawing more and more people. Some who showed up because they were curious are now performers in current shows. There has been intense interest in the instruments, music and performances. Dance classes are growing and more and more people are taking up instruments.

I would encourage those who have time to set up events. Do them at places outside the usual ethnic music and dance circles. Mix it up with a lot of different regional styles. And get people to come out. And have information about instruments, classes and how to get involved.

It is working for us here. I hope it will work for others.

Maybe we can start a network of events globally and some day have performers from other areas join partner events in other cities. Our doors are always open to performers who come to Japan to share their love for ethnic and traditional music. I hope others will give it a try too.

charlie oud - 6-24-2008 at 12:24 AM

:xtreme: Sherko, you are out of control, try calm down mate. We are all enjoying our music, you can too. Peace, C.:cool:

Sherko Dakouri - 6-24-2008 at 02:26 AM

Dear Christian!

I have absolutely no resentment towards any people in the Middle East or in the World. I consider nationalist thinking narrow-minded and egocentric, and you can see me defending Arabic (and Turkish and Persian...) music with the same enthusiasm that I'm defending Kurdish music with. I said previously that I was a Kurd from Syria, but I have the deepest love for all cultures in my region and in this world. When I say that people in the Middle East are backwards, I don't only mean the Arabs, I'm speaking here generally. No dictator would be able to control us had we not been dictators at home.. Such things may be difficult to understand for someone who is not from such a society. And to be critical of someone doesn't mean to hate them and be racist. I'm absolutely not against listening to Western music and benifiting from it, but on the condition that we don't lose our own identity. I'm not dismissing others' cultures, I'm only asking not to dismiss our own cultures! Please, try you and Eliot not to turn this discussion into a polemic against me. Regards.

katakofka - 6-24-2008 at 10:32 AM

It's so simple Sherko when someone used such a language (sucks ! backwarded) in a public debate the outcome might not be clear. One is accusing you as musical salafist (nice oxymoron Alami !) the other accusing you as being racist...
For myself, I still didn't swallow the "backwarded" people in the middle east that you still repeating it. For me the only backwarded people are the ones living in the past. The backwarded people are persons claiming knowlegde of culture, trying to protect it but they don't know what they want to protect. The backwarded people are the one giving lectures in a public debate on a substance they don't know what they are tatlking about.
Since you lived in Syria, here is a "backhwarded" group called "Hewaar". Check that youtube and read carefully want is written in that video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DxY3mJo8fE
Hewaar are traveling all over the world. They know their music, their culture and they are exposing it in forms accepted by a large audiance. I don't see them backwarded at all ! In syria you have also the great saba7 fakhri, but he still singing and repeating the same repertoire for almost 50 years. Is he really protecting his music by doing so?

katakofka - 6-24-2008 at 12:38 PM

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&am...
Listen to the man vocal from min 2:40 in the music called INK.The voice is for Issam rafea (the Oud player in the group). Do you hear a new saba7 fakhri or not?
Issam is a fantastic Oud player (listen how he plays the Oud in the music Dance). in addition to his position as Chair of the Arabic Music Department in Damascus, he is on faculty of the Arab Conservatory where he teaches both Oud and western Harmony.
Who is helping in spreading his culture, saba7 fakhri or Issam Rafea?

Masel - 7-1-2008 at 03:34 AM

Hey, I wanted to add my view. Before middle-eastern music I was (and still am) into rock'n'roll, and that's what we play in our band. But more and more we are building a combination of the two different energies and trying to mix them in a way that is respectful to both styles. In our "vision" it fits and is very possible but still this is very difficult and it will take some years before we can do it properly, but I think we are on the right way, and as a result, more of my band members are following my lead and getting more seriously interested in proper middle eastern music.

I'd like to see more people doing these things, for the sake of innovation and new creation but also to use these mediums as doors to expose people to the traditional ways. So I think if done seriously and with respect, fusions can be good, but they will never for me replace the original.