Mike's Oud Forums

Risha technique

thrip - 10-9-2008 at 11:12 AM

Are there any definite rules for risha technique? Everytime I change string should I be starting with a downstroke?

SamirCanada - 10-9-2008 at 11:29 AM

check this.

http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=5901

There are no set rules, its more like regional influences.

Hatem_Afandi - 10-9-2008 at 11:38 AM

Thrip / Samir,

I hope this video helps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1ZJsEbEB14

Regards,

Hatem

thrip - 10-10-2008 at 02:33 AM

Interesting stuff. Thanks

Jassim - 10-10-2008 at 02:56 AM

there are many ways for the resha
we can see resha sharqeyah or turkish tecnin or iraqi
there are three school for this tecnic

Marina - 10-10-2008 at 05:36 AM

These are the simple Arabic plucking rules:

Pay attention to the angle that the risha is stroking the strings at. It should be at about a 45 degree angle. When the risha strikes a pair of strings, it has to be stopped by the pair of string below (to touch the string below – for example – if you play the string SOL, your risha will be stopped on DO). Pluck INWARD, not as in your youtube video OUTWARD. ;-)

• Rule no 1: When moving from string to string, always pluck downward..
• Rule no. 2: When there are short notes like 1/8th s or 1/16th s, pluck the first note downward and the second note UP if on the same string. If the first 1/8th note is on one string and other on the other string, then pluck both of them downward, as explained in the rule no. 1
• Rule no. 3: When we want to play a stronger, accented note at the beginning of each musical sentence, always pluck downward. (Beginning of Legato, beginning of group of four 1/8th s, or 1/16th s.
• Rule no. 4: For 1/4 notes, pluck downward, or – for advanced players-- first make a short upward movement, and thae downward.
• Rule no. 5: In playing triplets (triollas), always pluck the first note downward.
• Rule no. 6: 1/2 notes or whole note can be played with a tremolo (see below about “tremolo”).

Rules, as we know, are “made to be broken”:In some cases, when playing advanced pieces, we do not stick to the these basics rules.

Also, the think that I find soooo helpful is to feel that you play with YOUR HAND not with risha. Risha is just the extention of your hand.

thrip - 10-10-2008 at 06:24 AM

Hi Marina,

Thanks very much for your answer, most informative! (I've got your book on order, btw, very much looking forward to it.)

Interestingly the way you describe the technique is almost exactly the same for gypsy jazz guitar technique, which I am also working on.

Apologies for the youtube video by the way, hope to post something better in a while :(

DaveH - 10-10-2008 at 07:55 AM

Hi Thrip

While I'm not very experienced, I'm afraid I'd disagree with the idea that you should always use a downstroke when you change strings. I reckon you should basically be able to play a passage in a given manner independently of when you change strings. To me, the more important general rule is that accented beats should have a downstroke. This as far as I can see is pretty much a universal rule and is generally only broken by players when they do it deliberately for effect (eg syncopation). If you think about it, if you change the key or the position of the hand on the neck, you're going to change strings at different points in a phrase, but you want to be able to achieve exactly the same phrasing. Even though you should be aiming for very little difference in sound between upstrokes and downstrokes, there will always still be a difference, and this is vital in giving the rhythmic drive oud's sound. Therefore, you should be able to play a given phrase without really thinking about when you change strings, just thinking about the kind of phrasing you want.

I would say that "easy" string changes are good for speed but bad for the rhytmic pulse and it's better to get into a habit of playing a phrase the same way independent of string changes.

This is just two cents worth from a less experienced player and I know there are very good players out there who do play amazingly with a different philosophy.

Brian Prunka - 10-10-2008 at 09:54 AM

I am no expert, so the following is just my opinion, but I have been playing oud for 10 years, and have been fortunate enough to study and play with a number of truly exceptional oud players, so hopefully it's an informed opinion based on what I've learned from them.

I think Marina's suggestions are excellent.

Marina's 'rules' are for the traditional Arabic style of playing (Ottoman/Turkish style seems to favor fewer downstrokes). In my experience, you must play this way if you want to achieve the traditional sound. Coming from a jazz guitar background, I understand the perspective that Dave is advocating; however, it will not give you the right sound. And it is not true that it is bad for the rhythmic pulse (at least not if you're good at it), as is daily demonstrated by many professional Arab oud players. Though it's true that it can seem that way when someone has not practiced it enough.

On the other hand, when I studied with Simon, he advocated practicing the ability to change strings in all possible picking combinations (they are: down-down, down-up, up-down, and up-up, either ascending strings or descending strings, for 8 possible permutations, although the up-up ones are pretty useless for oud playing). In practice, the various down-down (especially from a higher-pitched string to a lower-pitched one) option are very import to practice. The nature of the risha dictates that certain things work better than others, so when playing (as opposed to practicing), it's important to learn to use that to your advantage.


Dave's absolutely right that it's important to try to get your upstrokes to sound as close as possible to your downstrokes. However, much more attention (at least in the beginning) needs to be paid to your downstrokes, to make sure you're starting with a good sound as the reference point. If you do the downstroke absolutely perfectly, it will be much easier to get a strong upstroke. If you have a bad downstroke and you get your upstroke to sound just like it, you've accomplished nothing. If you can rapidly play clean successive downstrokes, it will help your playing immensely.

Dave's suggestion that a passage be picked with regard to musical phrasing, and not the physical demands of string crossings is a great principle, and I think it's generally true. A good player will be able to manipulate the phrasing in subtle ways, not playing the same way every time. But it somewhat misses the point in that Arabic music is traditionally very idiomatic, and traditional oud phrasing is very much influenced by the physical characteristics of technique. So you can't really separate the two in the way that you can in western classical (and to a slightly lesser extent, jazz) tradition--the phrasing does not really exist independently of the instrument in the same way. An oud player, a violinist, a nay player, and a qanun player will all phrase differently, and in Arabic music, this is considered desirable. So I would disagree that "if you change the key or the position of the hand on the neck, you're going to change strings at different points in a phrase, but you want to be able to achieve exactly the same phrasing". If you play in a different position/fingering, it is usually precisely in order to achieve a different phrasing. He's absolutely right, though, that one should practice trying to achieve the same phrasing in different positions & fingerings, as the will ultimately give one more control over the final result. What I guess I'm making a distinction about is between a) ways of practicing to increase command of the instrument and b) how to ultimately approach the instrument from a performance standpoint. I.e: yes, practice trying to achieve uniform control of phrasing regardless of the physical limitations of the instrument, but when actually playing a piece of music, learn how to use those limitations to your advantage in producing the sound/phrasing you want.

To that end, people have been playing oud for a very long time, and have figured out a number of things that have consistently helped people be better at it, which are the suggestions that Marina listed. I think it would be a mistake to disregard the collective wisdom of generations of oud players.

To clarify/add to Marina's list:
I'm not sure what you mean, Marina, about "inward" vs. "outward" picking. It seems to me that the player in the video above is picking inward (with the result of his smacking the face of the oud on nearly every note, not a desirable outcome IMO). What I learned was to pick in sort of a half circle, so the risha is going somewhat inward before it hits the string, and somewhat outward after it passes the string. I think we are talking about the same thing, but have slightly different terminology. This is why I think everyone needs a teacher to work on risha technique in person--it's just too difficult to describe in words.
(when I refer to ascending/descending, I am always referring to the pitch of the strings)
Rule No.1: it's important to pay attention the the rhythmic results of ascending with down-down motion. It's very easy to rush and lose the rhythmic definition. Also, be careful about extra wasted motion in your right hand (often a kind of bouncing about). Your risha should rest on the next string until you play the next note, not bounce back out and play a whole separate stroke (at least if you're trying to practice faster playing). This needs to be practiced very slowly and preferable in front of a mirror so you can really watch your right hand. Descending down-down is a very important part of oud risha style and needs to be practiced extensively.

Rule No.2: unless the first note is an upbeat, in which case you should often start with an upstroke. Also, occasionally it may make the phrasing work better to start with one of the other, so experiment with both in certain difficult passages.

Rule No. 5: if the triplets are 16th notes, or are fast, sometimes it is better to alternate up-down throughout. Practicing down-up-down is really helpful though for the majority of triplet situations, as Marina says. It also has benefits beyond triplets, in that it really helps right-hand control overall. Also, one should practice down-down-up, which also gives you a downstroke on the first of the three triplets, but is preferable in some situations for phrasing or technical reasons.

Sorry for the super-long post, hopefully some folks will find this helpful in some way.

Brian Prunka - 10-10-2008 at 10:21 AM

I reread my post, and realized I might have sounded overly critical of Dave's suggestions.

The basic ideas he is advocating are good ones; however, in terms of oud technique, they are things that are not likely to help beginners, and are actually likely to slow one's progress. Depending on how much one practices, a beginner should probably spend 6 months to a year on gaining reasonable fluency with the basics of traditional technique as Marina outlined before moving on to the sort of refinement that Dave is advocating.

The exception to this is the principle of making your upstroke as strong as you downstroke, which one should start working on as soon as one has thoroughly mastered the downstroke (which may take quite a while).

In addition, it's very very important to be relaxed at all times. Something that will hep with this is making sure that one has adequate preparation for the downstroke. It's somewhat like in baseball or golf--you wouldn't hold the bat or club 2 inches from the ball and try to hit it as hard as possible, rather you practice attaining accurate rusults from a good swing. When practicing the downstroke, a good guideline is that the risha should start about two strings away from the string you're aiming for (so to play G/sol, you should start the motion from near the A/la string). As you gradually become more proficient, you can reduce the size of the motion. The larger motion is important initially for staying relaxed, improving accuracy, and getting a good sound without excessive force.

DaveH - 10-10-2008 at 10:34 AM

Thanks for intervening Brian. This is a really interesting topic for me (thanks Thrip) and not something I've discussed with anyone before, so it's really useful to hear different people's opinions. I gladly bow to your wisdom. As I understand it, the answers to these questions differ somewhat regionally too, with, for example, the Iraqi school being a little more academic, and the Egyptian perhaps more idiosyncratic.

Slightly off-topic, but I find your point about using the "limitations" of the oud very interesting. One of the things that first interested me about the oud is that it comes from a classical tradition which very much swings with the technical idiosyncrasies of the instrument - distinct qualities to different plectrum strokes, use of open strings for pedals etc. I think much western music on the other hand nowadays tries to use the instrument as a medium for voicing abstract musical ideas and the job of the performer is to overcome the "limitations" the instrument imposes on this.

I come from a classical guitar and lute background and it strikes me that early Western music also had this sense of using the instrument more. Picking technique for renaissance lute is basically a polyphonised version of plectrum technique. You can see how early 16th Century lute technique was almost a direct translation of plectrum lute, before becoming more convoluted later on, with a (downwards) thumbstroke replacing the downstroke and an (upwards) finger-stroke replacing the upstroke. A lot of what I wrote above does come from my renaissance lute background and my trying to connect that with the oud.

Classical guitar on the other hand seems to spend most of its time trying to overcome instrumental limitations, probably trying to sound more and more like a piano, in an effort to compete with the dominance of that instrument.

DaveH - 10-10-2008 at 10:51 AM

Sorry, we posted at the same time, Brian. No need at all for any softening of your points, which are all well taken. I'm not going to stack myself up against all the combined years of experience of you, Simon Shaheen and Marina, the author of THE definitive oud tutor, now am I? :bowdown:

Marina - 10-10-2008 at 02:29 PM

gypsy jazz guitar technique!?
Cool! I wish I could play like this. I did not have a clue it is similar. :applause:

Marina - 10-10-2008 at 02:39 PM

Hi there!
Actually, I cought myselfe a lot of times figurins shoul I stroke down on up and it really put me in "histerical" state. ;-)
And, in the bottom line, old good Arabic technique seems OK. But, once when I atended Simon's Shaheen's workshop in Haifa he was talking about some special picking - for example high C down G below up. He also explaind to do the circle movement, just like a little letter c when pluck that way. I found it very interesting but advanced.
Sometimes, to avoid strikin twice or three times down (it slowes the movements), you just change the position, that means, for exhample, you do not play the open string, but the same note (tone) on the lower string.
For example descending: C, bB, A, G you pluck closed C!!! on 2 string down, than bB up, A down, G up and so on. If you play "normal" open C (1st string), than you'll get 2 times down, and it soooo slows you. :bounce:

thrip - 10-11-2008 at 04:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Marina
gypsy jazz guitar technique!?
Cool! I wish I could play like this. I did not have a clue it is similar. :applause:


Well you've got the right hand for it, so your halfway there!

If your interested, you can see that gypsy jazz guitarist are obsessed with the right hand:

http://www.djangobooks.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4458&highlight...

A big thanks to everyone replying to this thread, it's very interesting!

dubai244 - 10-11-2008 at 08:30 AM

Hi guys,

It is very insteresting thread and i really like it. As it is mentioned above, they are three types of risha that used for oud playing and related instrument, such as bozouki, baglama ...etc. They are: arabic classic risha which used mainly in egypt, which represents by arabic music and classic songs. And there is Turkish risha, which is very advance and it is only used in turkey and hardly used in in other country, because it needs alot of practice. and there is the iraqi risha, which is between the arabic and the turkish risha. it is start to spread between the most of oud player.

Lets put that in practical way ...

Arabic risha is the easiest one because it does not need alot of afford to play and most of the beginers use this risha and it is obvious start for any oud player. and good example for this risha is farid al attrash, riyath al sunbati.

Iraqi risha is second famous risha and it is represented by Naseer shamma, Munir bashir, omar munir bashir and other.

Turkish risha is the most complated one and it needs alot of practice to play it and the good example for it is Yordal Tokan and all turkish player with different instrument.

Note that Risha techniq is related to the finger positions for each style. For example, in the arabic style, a limited space of finger board is used to play the arabic style. and they are some people try to use the a hole finger board to play the arabic style. for example Farid attrash with he tried to play the "Al rabee" music piece.

In iraqi school, they use the hole finger board to play they style and they drag the tones along the finger board, good example of course is naseer shamma.

In turkish school, They use draging plus inverted risha and other techniq such high speed risha.

Soon i will be send some sound file represents what i mentioned above.

thanks

Jason - 10-11-2008 at 05:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Marina
For example descending: C, bB, A, G you pluck closed C!!! on 2 string down, than bB up, A down, G up and so on. If you play "normal" open C (1st string), than you'll get 2 times down, and it soooo slows you. :bounce:


This is a good point. Economy of picking is very important when you want to play cleanly and also play fast.

It is also important to use proper fingerings in passages like this. I apply the same fingering concepts that I learned on the double bass to the oud.

I guess I'm getting a little more into left hand technique and maybe I should start another thread :)