Mike's Oud Forums

ho made this oud

SamirCanada - 11-1-2008 at 08:34 AM

it looks like a faruk turunz.

but it could be a fake.

Jassim - 11-1-2008 at 08:57 AM

its fake oud not faruk turunz
i sow many oud makers try to copy and fake the ouds of the master faruk turunz

dubai244 - 11-1-2008 at 11:14 AM

it seem to me it is fake oud. You can get the date of made from the label inside and check it with Mr.Faruk.

Thanks

Melbourne - 11-2-2008 at 01:19 AM

Yeah I'd say its a fake, it has all the characteristics of a Turunz, the rosettes, bridge and raqma, but the rigour and "love" are not there....You can tell how theres bits of plastic showing from the rosettes when they're clearly not ment to be exposed, and the poor way the purfling meets, especially on the small rosettes.

farukturunz - 11-2-2008 at 03:02 AM

Thank you Akram for bringing this issue to the Forums. It is a typical example to how a beauty can convert to a disgusting object at the hands of those :mad:who are trying to cheat people unconscientiously.
How can we assume those people who have no sense of feeling eshamed, to be just! No more comment!:buttrock:

Thanks to Melbourne, dubai244, Jassim and Samir Canada for their highy developed ability to distinguish my oud's characteristics:applause:

nizarrohana - 11-2-2008 at 03:28 AM

Hello Akram,
What does the label say? I could see Arabic letters there! :mad:
all the best

JamesOud - 11-2-2008 at 07:21 AM

Hey guys,

Wouldnt it be a fake only if the label inside was a fake Turunz label. Otherwise, this is just a poor replica or model based on Turunz design...no?

I dont think this maker is trying to pass it as a Turunz, but has definitely taken the design from him. Just claryfying some technicallities.

All the best,

James

Josh - 11-2-2008 at 11:02 AM

Quote:

it is not fake faruk oud becouse the lable is not farouk turunze

how come your asking who made it yet know who made it as you have read the label? I am confused by this thread? it looks like your trying to sell it or something? ...why not just say what label says or take a picture of it? is this a quiz or something...:shrug:

Jassim - 11-2-2008 at 11:18 AM

how can its not faruk turunz fake oud if he had Stolen the rosettes and the pickgard and evry thing?
its cheap way to cheat the custmers
way he dont make his own style for the oud?
why he take from famouse oud maker?
that is the way to fake the ouds
usta faruk take many years to build his name and some new cheap oud maker come and take it to cheat the poor players??
i dont like this way
and pls dont show us any more pic for this cheater maker

shareen - 11-2-2008 at 05:13 PM

Yo guys...Akram never asked if was a Faruk Tunruz, he just asked if anyone knows who made the oud. It may be a very nice oud. I had a beautiful Turkish oud with no label. I bought it in a store in Istanbul and I am told it is typical that some store owners take the labels out so that you don't find the maker and buy it directly from him. There are many instrument builders that take designs from other builders, it doesn't mean they are stealing or trying to "fake" the instruments!!::(

nizarrohana - 11-3-2008 at 02:17 AM

I agree with Josh! Akram, why are you asking about the maker when you have the label in front of your eyes?
who ever made this Oud "tried to copy" Mr. Turnuz's Ouds and i think its not appropriate!
Akram, i think you owe every buddy on this forum the name of that maker!
Salam

I sent U2U

farukturunz - 11-3-2008 at 03:49 AM

Mr. akram, I sent you a U2U. Will you please read it and kindly fulfill my request. Thank you.

Jonathan - 11-3-2008 at 07:00 AM

OK, I'll be the devil's advocate on this one.
Most importantly, I would stop the comparison to Turunz.
The face is beautiful. I have no problem with the purfling--it looks like a very nice job to me. It is very, very rare that you can't find the stop/start point on the purfling. I wish the extended fingerboard did not cover the outer ring of purfling, but that is being a bit fussy.
As for the bowl--
I don't like the way the outermost staves flare out, with the widest portion being just below the circular inlay at the base. You almost never see this on a professional oud. If you had a view of the side of the bowl, you would see that it would look somewhat strange. This is simply not how the oud is supposed to look.
Also, take another look at the staves in that shot from the bottom of the bowl. Look, particularly, at the sides of the mahogany staves. You will see that there is a ton of wood filler there. The joint was not great, so a glue and sawdust mixture was used to make the ribs come into contact with each other. Again, it doesn't look great.
Look as well at how some of the ribs at the base are wider than others. The purfling around the circular inlay looks a bit amateurish.
Sure, it's shined up real pretty. And it could be a very nice oud. I just think that you really can't compare it to the work of a master.

Josh - 11-3-2008 at 07:23 AM

Jonathon. I think the point is that it looks like it has been made with the specific aim to fool the less knowlegable that it is a Turunz oud as there are no obvious signs that the maker has attempted to make it look like an original instrument. Its a copy.. Also the poster has asked who made it, yet from his posted comments seems to already know who made it! that strikes me as a little odd!

Jonathan - 11-3-2008 at 11:39 AM

I agree with you Josh.
A Turunz oud is a masterpiece.
This oud is not. A discerning eye can see this--there is shoddy workmanship that Turunz simply would not allow. I understand that it is meant to fool--I simply meant to point out that the poor workmanship should tell people that it is not the real thing.
The whole thing stinks, and I hope akram tells us the details of the counterfeit.

SamirCanada - 11-3-2008 at 12:53 PM

One thing I would like to point out.
and anyone with a little experiance repairing or making ouds would recognize right away is that the copied aspects on this oud are the ''easiest'' to make.
the pickguard and rosettes are not the most complicated things to make on the oud.
but making the ribs join with precision is very complicated.

usta Faruk's ouds are beautiful in their simple yet elegant classic lines. This may have given the person making the copy that they could easily replicate his work but the workmenship details and precision cannot be matched.

Josh - 11-3-2008 at 01:01 PM

I hope Akram has the decency to say, and post a picture of the maker label

Imitation is a form of flattery

shareen - 11-3-2008 at 06:20 PM

Ok, here's my take again. Take the guitar, which I play. Take a Martin guitar for example...there are several very fine builders that have studied and copied the way Martins are built (the old classic ones). They copy the body shape, the purfling, the pick guards, just about everything except the logo on the headstock. Except, it's not a Martin. It may be an Olsen (costing $12,000) or a Collings (costing $4,000). But it's not a Martin. Millions of players love the tried and true design of Martin, but the new ones have gotten bad, so individual makers have cloned them and they are better than the new ones.

So what if someone copies your design, Mr. Tunruz. No matter how much they copy it, it's still not YOU and it will never be you. So let them copy. What do you care? If it doesn't have a fake label on the inside, then no one is stealing anything or trying to fool someone. They are just imitating. If it had a fake label, that's another thing. Then THAT is dishonest and stealing from you. :bounce:

Akram, you asked asked a question. So, what does the label say inside. There IS a label, yes? You can see it from the pictures. Is the label in English?

oudplayer - 11-4-2008 at 05:36 AM

shareen.

you hit the nail on its head brother. i know exacly what you mean. mr./ master Tunruz is a amazing person as i was told and so is his work. when i made my first riq i copied it from a kevork style but you could not compaire one with the other, well kevork sounds amazing , and mine um yeh leave it as that.( still working on it lol)
so as most of you said, just bc you copyed it , it does not mean its the instrument, no matter how hard you try. We are in the world of counterfit and there is nothing we can do about it. its shamful, but nothing we can do.

thx sammy

akram - 11-4-2008 at 06:55 AM

sound sample

Josh - 11-4-2008 at 07:08 AM

Quote:

i know the oud is not fake oud, it is made to be arabic sound and like turkish size it was not meant to be like faruk oud


i dont understand why Mr abo alaa has made it look exactly like a faruk oud if its supposed to be an original piece unless it was made to order i guess? was it made to order with instructions to the maker to make it look like that?

Faruk copy

shareen - 11-4-2008 at 08:06 AM

How many contemporary builders make "Nahat copies"...Nazih, Shehata, everyone. Why is it ok for someone to copy a dead person's oud but not someone who is alive? Abu Alla is an exceptional builder and a gentleman. I think all who have insulted this oud without even playing it or seeing it in person owe him an apology. Arrogance and ego is a dangerous weapon folks.

Josh - 11-4-2008 at 08:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by shareen
How many contemporary builders make "Nahat copies"...Nazih, Shehata, everyone. Why is it ok for someone to copy a dead person's oud but not someone who is alive? Abu Alla is an exceptional builder and a gentleman. I think all who have insulted this oud without even playing it or seeing it in person owe him an apology. Arrogance and ego is a dangerous weapon folks.


I think the problem arose because the original poster asked 'who made this oud' when all along they knew who made it.. why did the poster not say- 'said look at my Abu Alla oud' .. It is the poster who owes an apology I think

farukturunz - 11-4-2008 at 08:49 AM

Who are you shareen? Are you an oud maker who devoted his life to his art? Can you understand my feelings? Futhermore, what is your purpose: Are you cooperating in selling that "copy" and getting profit out of it?

I insult that funny looking copy and those disgraseful people involving in this clowning. I don't owe any thing to any one. You are evidently advocating such a disgraceful commitment and trying to supress people expressing their thoughts on the issue fairly.

Of course you will post reply to my words. You have already been pre-replied by these words of mine. You can defend yourself as much as and as long as you can. Even you can assoult and become abusive to me fearlessly. This is my last word: You are unjust and involving in a deception planned insidiously.

Brian Prunka - 11-4-2008 at 11:08 AM

Mr. Turunz,

You are one of the greatest living oudmakers. Your ouds have a truly unique sound, an amazing accomplishment that is matched by few others, living or dead. No one can make an oud that sounds like yours--that is your "copy protection", if you will. I have played your ouds and I have played Abu Alla's. I hope to one day own one of your ouds. I think you have no reason to worry, and you should not let this bother you. Here's why:

-This oud was not meant to deceive anyone or be represented as your work. Evidently, it was made to order, so the buyer knew the maker and at no point was there any confusion as to the oud's origins. The maker put his own label inside, which should eliminate any potential for future confusion. I have met Abu Alla, and he seemed a very kind and decent man. He ordinarily makes ouds of his own design, they are good instruments. Based on the information here, he seems to have merely fulfilled a request. I agree it is in poor taste to copy the rosette design of a living oudmaker. Many rosette designs are not attributed to a particular person, though, so he may have been unaware that this was your design. I think we should give him the benefit of the doubt for now.

-I think Akram meant no harm to anyone, he just wanted to see if anyone would guess that his "turkish-style" oud was made by Abu Alla. No other ouds by him look anything like this, so I think Akram merely thought it would be fun to surprise people. I really don't think there was any intention of deceiving people or leading people to believe it was your work.

Like Shareen indicated, a luthier's quality is what's important, not the superficial aspects of the design. It is impossible to duplicate the work of a great luthier. As long as there is no one is being deceived, I don't think that copying visual aspects merits this degree of disgust, though I understand a feeling of contempt. Nahat, Manol, Georges, etc., have all contributed to the design and evolution of the oud. Some of their innovations have become part of the tradition, and everyone copies them. Perhaps you could talk to Abu Alla and let him know that it bothers you to have your designs copied and to please not do it again. If he agrees, then he is an honorable man. If he refuses, then you are justified in your contempt, though I still feel you should waste your time and energy with anger.

Best Regards,
Brian

Jassim - 11-4-2008 at 11:12 AM

its funny thing
akram you post this oud in many fourms asking who made this oud !!!!!!!!!!!and now you say that you order this oud from abo alla??????????? you order this oud and now you ask who made it :mad:??????????

Brian Prunka - 11-4-2008 at 11:12 AM

Just to respond to Shareen's comment:

The reason it's okay to copy a dead person's design, but not someone who is living, is that the dead person is dead, while the living person is living. It's obvious--you cannot harm the interests of a dead person. He does not need to eat, keep a roof over his head, purchase clothing, etc. If he has feelings, presumably they are somewhat removed from the activities of this world.

Jassim - 11-5-2008 at 12:05 AM

Shareen's
first: this oud is not good looking
its not allowed to copy any thing from any one befor takeing Authorize from him

shareen - 11-6-2008 at 10:08 PM

Again, I don't think Abu Ala meant to "copy" the oud. He may have used some design elements from it, that's it. Believe me he doesn't need to copy anyone's instruments. He makes his own great ouds all by himself. I own one. The oud I have has inlay that one may say he "copied" from Nazih...lo and behold he showed me a book of inlays that is available to all luthiers to use and our favorite luthiers have used them. Why don't we just call it "paying tribute" to other builders, like we do in the guitar world, where it's no big deal to use the design ideas of another luthier if it works. Mr. Turnruz, I am sorry if you think I "abused" you. Maybe it's a language thing, but I didn't mean it that way. Take a "chill pill" as we say in New York. Relax!! You are the greatest! Why be so angry? :wavey:

jass - 11-7-2008 at 12:20 AM

Whats everybody so upset about?

This maker has just copied Turunz rossettes and pickguard hardly enough to make it a Turunz oud. Everyone knows the amazing quality of Turunz ouds, so its sound should be its defense. I wouldnt worry about it. Just play it in good health...

Oud makers have copied other ouds for years, oud makers when they start out have to have a reference point and it would be interesting to know if Turunz has ever copied another oud in the beginning? perhaps a Manol or double sound board?

Also, rossettes and pickguards can be outsourced made by other people and sold in sets to the maker, so no big deal. So, is then Jameel a fake for copying Nahats? no!!!!!! Its a Jameel oud and a fine one at that with some design aspects of Nahat. Just see it as sharing knowledge, or sharing happiness. Im sure there isnt a queue for this oud maker and Turunz rossettes, so Turunz can rest assured...

I think Shareen makes a good point, Jassim should relax, he sounds like he is on the Turunz payroll...its not really a big deal...Happy oud playing!

Jassim - 11-7-2008 at 01:03 AM

jass
first im not on turunz payroll turuz is my freind and Be polite agine
second
most of the syria makers i cant say all of thim but lets say 98% cheat the custmers by copying mahamad fadel ouds and turunz oud and other makers i think you like other maker to do that ?
and when akram post this oud here and ask about the maker name and he knows who is the maker
why didnt you talk about that?
and did you know that not only akram post the oud here
he post it in zeryab too and other fourmes asking pls people pls oud players tell me how made this lovely oud????
i think he want to show that abo alaa can steel another maker oud

Jassim - 11-7-2008 at 01:11 AM

maybe me and you know the original turunz oud but others dont know and dont have Experienced to know
i know some players pay more than 4000 $ for ouds then they find thats its not origenal its copy !!!
and i sow akram sell some ouds why did he tell abo alaa to copy turunz Design? mabe to sell it in high prise?
why did he didnt tell abo alaa i want abo alaa Design if he is a good maker and love his ouds?
its so Weird !!!!!

farukturunz - 11-7-2008 at 03:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jass
if Turunz has ever copied another oud in the beginning? perhaps a Manol or double sound board?

ust see it as sharing knowledge, or sharing happiness. Im sure there isnt a queue for this oud maker and Turunz rossettes, so Turunz can rest assured...

I think Shareen makes a good point, Jassim should relax, he sounds like he is on the Turunz payroll...its not really a big deal...Happy oud playing!


First point: I have never copied another oud in the beginning and during my career. If I had done that I am sure I would have not been lost trough Physics and Mathematics books for almost 10 years to understand how a musical instrument functions.

Second point: That rosette design was created by an artist teaching "Ottoman Decoration Arts" in the Faculty of Fine Arts of Istanbul Fine Arts University on my special order and I paid a good deal for it. What happens if I sue Abo Alaa for using that design which is protected by copyright!!!!

Third point: You had better deal with your own affairs. It's non of your business, gentleman! Or is it? Jassim is a very honorable musician and expert who can distinguish and evaluate ouds. Why are you assaulting without any achievement if you are not payrolled by some one!

Ararat66 - 11-7-2008 at 06:05 AM

Dear Faruk

I think I may have said this before in similar circumstances. You shouldn't have to worry about his, your ouds are so good, universally respected and unique that they are beyond needing to be defended - they 'speak' for themselves. I would even say that they are beyond copyright, just because something looks a bit like the real thing is just on the surface.

You don't need to justify yourself on this forum, we know you are a master luthier and nobody here can deny this ... if they do then what do they know? if a dog calls a cat a dog it will not start barking. Please don't worry s much, your ouds are superb:)

My best wishes and respect

Leon

Josh - 11-7-2008 at 06:45 AM

as in my fist post, why did the original poster ask who made the oud when they new who made it? I think he owes everyone an explanation

farukturunz - 11-7-2008 at 06:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ararat66
Dear Faruk
.........................
You don't need to justify yourself on this forum
Leon


Thank you dear Leon for your appreciative of merit. You are absolutely right... There are many beloved people on this forum who justify me and the truth better than I can do with my inefficient English!

dubai244 - 11-7-2008 at 08:49 AM

Hi,

I am honored that i own an oud made by the best oud maker in the world, Mr.Faruk Turunz. I have other professional ouds but non of them is even close to Mr.Faruk Turunz oud.

In the other hand, I am really shocked that some people they dont know what "ART" means. Any ART in this world has a copy right by it is owner. No body in this world can claim that he invent this peice of art. Some people want to convert this ART to money and "akram" case is a good example. This fake oud was a test for the people in this forum to see if it can pass and sell it with high price claiming is Mr.Faruk oud or turkish oud without caring about the copy right or the feeling of the orignal maker. These kind of people are not qualified to be artist, because they dont know the value of the art and they want to destroy this beautifull art.

Akram, Please answer following qestions:
1. Why did you ask people about "Who make this oud" while you know the answer?
2. Did you ask "Abu.abdulla" to make this oud for you?

Note: If you dont answer these questions then we already knew it !!

Thanks

oudplayer - 11-7-2008 at 09:09 AM

hey guys

faruk again and again amazing ouds and even if 100 people tell you that you know its true.

about abu allah, i dont know why he would wanna copy faruks master peices. i know they are amazing but oud makers have there own dictintive ouds and they are known for it. abu allahs ouds are amazing sound and craftmanship is great .

faruks is the same but they are 100% differ .

so on the other hand idk why one oud master would go into someones elses teritory when they have there own ouds and ideas.

thx sammy

JT - 11-7-2008 at 09:10 AM

Hey Guys,

Many of you make a valid point here and no one questions Oustaz Faruks' prestige in sound, structure and design of his ouds, so this is ok.

Although it is a compliment in a way that the Oud maker Abou Alaa likes Oustaz Faruk Turunz' design, It is really really UNFAIR to Oustaz Faruk that he should use it.
Oustaz Turunz has worked hard and committed long hours in creating that design and I think it should be a matter of respect and integrity from Abou Alaa not to copy the design and sell it as his own.
Oustaz Faruk is alive today(God lengthen his life and give him strength:) and he has a small workshop, not a big guitar factory who can afford to be undercut with fakes or replicas, so his design should be respected. And although copyright in such matters are hard to enforce, integrity, morality, common courtesy and respect should rule.
Oustaz Faruk has every right to be upset about this and I hope that these replicas do not contine to be manufactured...

All the best,

JT

shareen - 11-8-2008 at 05:45 PM

Let's get one thing straight. Akram never offered this oud for sale? English is not his first language (like many others on the forum). I think this whole thing was done rather innocently. Everyone needs to lighten up here.

paulO - 11-8-2008 at 05:56 PM

Lighten up...good idea. So, Akram -- how about a sound sample :rolleyes: Okay, sorry....I just was curious....:shrug:

Cordially...Paul

Ararat66 - 11-9-2008 at 03:38 AM

I think we ought to be careful reacting too strongly to things written in English if that is not your first language. I remember a letter from my Uncle Leon (God rest his soul) years ago who was Armenian. It was pretty offensive until I got my mother to translate the Armenian version ino English - It turned out t be totally the opposite in meaning and very funny, and kind.

Leon

suz_i_dil - 11-9-2008 at 08:17 AM

Dear mr Faruk, as Leon, I just think you don't have to loose your time justifying yourself on the forum.

There is one thing sure which never may be copy from your instrument is their great sound. Moreover the finition of your ouds which is perfect and very few maker have the ability to make such work.
This kind of copy is just a proof of mediocrity in his behavior, and as any mediocr behavior I think you can just take it regardless.

Sincerely.