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Oud and Spirituality

John Erlich - 11-18-2008 at 09:09 AM

Greetings Fellow Oud Maniacs,

I have wanted for a long time to post a question about other Forum members' oud playing and their spiritual life.

I am interested in hearing other players takes on...

1) How oud playing is (or isn't) in and of itself a spiritual experience for you; and

2) If and how you integrate your oud playing into your spiritual life in general.

To me, playing the oud itself is one of the most profound religious experiences I have. Right now, with my "faith" at low ebb, it amounts to my primary spiritual practice.

I also volunteer once a month as an accompanist, helping to lead (Jewish Renewal) religious services, playing on all of the songs and hymns of Near Eastern/North African origin.

My band, which has gone inactive lately, played Jewish sacred music from the Middle East and North Africa. We also threw in some Turkish Sufi ilahiler into our program (I am listening to a CD of ilahiler as a write this!) and were occasionally joined by a local Mevlevi dervish. When my band was active, performing this music was a deeply religious experience for me, and amounted to my main spiritual practice, even in times when my faith was stronger.

I still get quite a bit out of going to the synagogue (a politically progressive Conservative congregation in Berkeley, CA, USA) to pray, but I still often get the feeling that I would rather be communing with The Divine by playing my oud than by chanting prayers!

Peace/Salaam/Shalom/Shlama/Khoda Hafez etc.,
John

katakofka - 11-18-2008 at 09:28 AM

Hi John,
The Oud is widely used in our church (the maronite church) especially when a quarter tones are used. Many priests played the Ouds. My first teacher or influence was the priest in our church who used to be a very good Oud player. When I grew up I used to take the Oud with me to the Chruch and used it often with the chorus. Recently, instead of praying before sleeping I am playing for 1h some takasims putting myself in a smooth mood. It works better than praying or taking xanax : )
Best regards
Souheil

John Erlich - 11-18-2008 at 09:43 AM

Ahalan Souheil,

When I find the time, I am going to try to organize a concert of Aramaic/Syriac chant between my synagogue and the Bay Area's Maronite church. "Aramaicapalooza?" :airguitar:

Does the Maronite church you attend(ed) sing any hymns that are set to the melody of an Arabic folk or popular song?

Shlama raba, :wavey:

John

katakofka - 11-18-2008 at 09:59 AM

Hey John
no poplular or arabic folk you find in the hymns. Actually they still using the very old melodies transmitted from the beginning of that Chruch. In our days some priests made new hymns but in the same way of thinking as the oldies.
Best
Souheil

John Erlich - 11-18-2008 at 10:39 AM

Hi Souheil,

I asked because a friend of mine who is Coptic sang a couple of hymns from his Church which were set to well-known Arabic melodies. One hymn about Jacob wrestling with the Angel is set to "Ala Balad El Mahbub," which is also used to sing Psalms 118:21 in some Middle Eastern Jewish communities.

Here is a YouTube sample of what I'm talking about : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7YDCedKbnA Hebrew religious songs set to popular of folk Arabic (or Turkish or Persian) melodies are called "pizmonim." Yehezkel Zion is a hazzan (prayer leader) of Iraqi-Jewish ancestry.

And I ALWAYS sleep better if I get a chance to play oud before bed.

Peace,
John

Donjis3 - 11-18-2008 at 10:44 AM

I espécialy apréciate this thread john .thx!

I dont have much time as it is but i'll get back at you as soon as possible..

Gratitude,Don!

SamirCanada - 11-18-2008 at 11:18 AM

I know my priest would not allow different melodies for well known hymns and like Souheil said, the melodies have been the same since the begining. Actualy if you look up Dr. Scott Marcus's encyclopedia of middle-eastern music, you will find a maronite maqam. this is pretty much the only scale used.
In fact he would not allow the oud to be played during liturgy but this may be his own policy

Also I doubt your friend has sung this hymn during the liturgy. Maybe it was done afterwards in the basement or at a gathering/show. My fiancé is coptic orthodox and even though I dont go much to there church I do know that they are quite strict about what could be done during the mass. The oud would not be permited durring the mass as it is not one of the only 2 instruments permited. triangle and cymbals.

katakofka - 11-18-2008 at 11:25 AM

John: I guess it's a very controversial issue whether the music is derived from the senagog/church and made popular folk music or the opposite.
In the maronite church you don't hear popular music, if this happens it would be a rare event in some churches but not widely spread. The basic of the maronite/syriac church music is a simple melody (not more than 3 to 4 notes) similar to many old churches (e.g orthodox church). Pere keserwani, who is an ethnomusicologist, claims that the makams we have now are all "composed" makams derived from simple tetra or tri-cords which were widely spread in Mesopotamia. Briefly, he claims that we still use the same music since ages in all middle eastern countries.
Check his website
http://www.musimedialogy.org/
He also has a group called "the Mesopotamia Ensemble" that might interest you in your possible project.
http://www.musimedialogy.org/Meso.html
Best
Souheil

John Erlich - 11-18-2008 at 11:51 AM

Hi Samir,

Mabruk on your engagement!

I don't know exactly in what context my friend's Coptic church sang these hymns. Jewish "pizmonim" are not typically sung during the regular the synagogue service, but in the home or at special gatherings. In some Jewish communities, such as Jews from Aleppo, Syria, there is a tradition of going to the synagogue in the very early hours of the morning and signing "baqqashot" (for more info, check out: http://www.pizmonim.org/ - click on "Pizmonim" and scroll down) for several hours before the Saturday morning service starts.

One thing similar between us: Orthodox and Conservative Jews absolutely don't use musical instruments as part of the Shabbat (Sabbath) service as this is something specifically forbidden by religious law. (Although I don't know of any custom to use musical instruments during synagogue services not on Shabbat, I don't think this would be specifically forbidden.) I know that the use of musical instruments was and is widely debated among Muslims, too.

Peace,
John

John Erlich - 11-18-2008 at 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by katakofka
John: I guess it's a very controversial issue whether the music is derived from the senagog/church and made popular folk music or the opposite.

You aren't kidding, Souhail! I once emailed my question to a Coptic web site and got a rather nasty response. :rolleyes:

On this matter, I would distinguish between GENERAL musical styles in the Near East and North Africa, which are obviously influenced by pre-Arab and pre-Islamic musical forms, such as Eastern Christian chant and Jewish Torah "ta'amim" (chanting trope) and SPECIFIC songs. I have a CD the liner notes of which claim that the melody of "Ala Balad El Mahboub" was taken from Jewish synagogue chants. I don't take this claim too seriously and am not convinced that Riad El Soumbati "borrowed" this melody.

All the best,
John

katakofka - 11-18-2008 at 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by John Erlich

You aren't kidding, Souhail! I once emailed my question to a Coptic web site and got a rather nasty response. :rolleyes:

What were the question and the nasty response?

shareen - 11-18-2008 at 02:50 PM

John, what an amazing thread. I think that many of us, no matter what religion we are feel this way about our ouds and music in general. It is God's language. I will u2u on this, as I have things to share that I'd rather do on that basis, but will add to this thread soon.

Shukran, thank you, toda roba...shalom, salaam, peace.

Ararat66 - 11-18-2008 at 02:54 PM

Great thread - like some of the others I wil contribute but need a little time to consider my reply.

Leon

cjmichael - 11-18-2008 at 03:21 PM

I find that listening to and playing the oud or any other expressive instrument is a gateway to reach the ever-peaceful meditative state that some reach when they worship.

There is a common bond between religions of the mid-east and the far-east in that certain repetitive and familiar rituals allow you to reach a meditative state where you have let go of all your senses and are truly reaching a state of rapture or enlightenment. I believe that focus, familiarity, and repetition are momentous in reaching a spiritual state that allows people to feel the presence of God, the harmony of nature, or the state of Enlightenment.

I feel that instruments are great tools for spirituality because they embody a ritualism. The player must focus so that there is little or no static between the music they hear inside themselves and the music that leaves their instrument. The listener must in turn focus to understand the feeling the player conveys. The familiarity comes when we start to hear and play maqamat and other patterns in a way that people in the world communally understand them. A sad song remains sad and a happy song remains happy. And without repetition, without the consistent stroke of the risha against the strings, without hearing or performing a piece of music many times, the music becomes less relaxing and more challenging to hear. I don't believe music that "makes you think" is a bad thing, but I do feel it distracts from this meditative state. I don't know too much about "tarab", but I believe there is a very good bit of repetition involved.

Playing oud, just like participating in my religion, brings me to this wonderful state of meditation where I feel truly at peace amidst the world around me. A lot like the Taoist state of Enlightenment, it's a feeling that cannot be explained with words. I believe that real music is not harmful. It doesn't take control or give people evil thoughts. On the contrary, it helps us release ourselves from the material world around us and helps to open the gateway to the spiritual side that I solemnly believe every human has.

Amer - 11-18-2008 at 09:11 PM

I've been thinking about this very topic in the realm of zen.. maybe because I've been studying far eastern religions for a few months now..

The oud really does induce a mind state of strong meditative nature.. I'm sure we all feel it, it's just impossible not to notice.. especially when listening to an improvisation that is spiritual in some way, or when you're just in a good mood and play "for yourself"!

Personally, I like OUI.. Ouding under the influence! :bowdown:

Boral - 11-19-2008 at 01:17 AM

cjmichael,
I am also learning the ney (oud is very recent). I agree with everything you said . I would like to add the word trance because meditative and trance states are equal; trance states induced by music are so near the spiritual or mystical experiences.
It is indeed something that approaches us to our inner world, that inner space of peace and beauty.

oudplayer - 11-19-2008 at 06:01 AM

Hey john
How are you buddy?

for me its all about frame drum and perccusion. everytime i i play a tak, doum, or pa, its a the soul rises. When i play the oud the soul dances. when i play psalms and yemeni diwan, it makes me think about what each note is trying to say. some times when i play infront of people thats when god takes my soul and recharges it with the happiness of other people.
basicly when i play by my self it is different then in front of people.

Us musicans have the ability to turn somebodys , life around and make them more aware of things at the monmont.

thx sammy

Jameel - 11-19-2008 at 06:47 AM

I don't get anything spiritual out of playing my oud. But I tell you this, during the course of making an oud I do a lot praying, cursing, repenting, hoping, and sometimes even weeping! LOL!

journeyman - 11-19-2008 at 07:29 AM

"during the course of making an oud I do a lot praying, cursing, repenting, hoping, and sometimes even weeping!"

I hear you Jameel. The same thing happens to me when I make Greek salads. The Kalmata olive, which as you rightly pointed out is the original inspiration for the oud, just starts me speaking in tongues, wailing, cursing...it's like some ancient spirit just takes over my body or something.

John Erlich - 11-19-2008 at 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by katakofka

Quote:

Originally posted by John Erlich

You aren't kidding, Souhail! I once emailed my question to a Coptic web site and got a rather nasty response. :rolleyes:

What were the question and the nasty response?

Hi Souheil,

I asked very specifically about where I could find/buy recordings of the Jacob-wrestling-with-the-Angel "Ala Balad El Mahboub" and other Coptic hymns employing existing folk and popular Arabic melodies. They responded curtly something like, "We in the Coptic Church don't borrow Arabic melodies. We came first and they borrow from us." No information was provided about where I could find/buy recordings. I got the message that the relationship between Arabic culture and cultures of non-Arab and/or non-Muslim minorities in the Arab World is very controversial.

I have subsequently heard similar stories, such as an Algerian Amazigh (Berber) band threating to walk off the stage in the middle of a performance (somewhere in the USA) because a member of the audience requested an Arabic-language song.

My "day job" is in local government, and I have learned how to apply the bland, bureaucratic, legalistic language required by my day job (that is, required to keep people from suing your agency) to approach discussion such topics more delicately.

Peace,
John

Donjis3 - 11-19-2008 at 11:09 AM

Hello again John!
The very fact of being is of a spiritual nature in it self !makes no diférences if i'm aware of it or not!

It... get's enhanced when i'm conciously aware of it though!For instance as it is i'm praticing risha thecniques..it's a concious effort..at least when i'M strating to practice..then it It...when loosening concient control takes over and I get mysticaly lost in waves of créativities then at the vey instant that i get aware of what's realy happening (taking control again) Sometimes... in tears of joy...I am that we are ...It and the relations ship with me...only happens whe playing

alone!
And has first previously states:I'm very new with ouds!
Basicaly the key word for me is CRÉATIVITY...And in it's globalisation of issues ...there is a great need of creativity in this world...Evreything is (for me) a créative potentiality that gets enhance even and espacialy in adversity..or polarity..for instance the fretted insturments being fretted are limited buy their very structural nature while most of the non fretted ones are limitless ... and being so enhance(micros tons) wolrdwide émancipation of creatiivity musicaly speaking ...music is a beyond words medium that speaks from souls to souls..and induce states of consciousness ...being basicaly organised noises..it is by nature limitless..being so exclusion is very commun when one feel insécure when loving power while others feels empowerd in loving...even in adversity..Now to all the purists traditionalyts I'm very greatfull cause you are the gardians of my most pure travelings throught time, space, and conditions...to the créators of the new ways I'm greatfull as well..for ehnacing créativity...All has to feel globaly included with respects...I'm dreaming of instruments that any menbers of any cultures could mostly instanteniusly feel at home to play.. Créativity tkaes places ... here... and always in thy now!Gratitudes,Don!

Donjis3 - 11-19-2008 at 08:34 PM

hello thre!

I was wandering if someone would know what musical strucure (maquam?)that are being use in sufi's music?

Gratiude,Don!

rebetostar - 11-20-2008 at 10:48 PM

I'd like to recommend an excellent book on this subject;
"The Mysticism of Sound and Music"
The Sufi Teaching of Hazrat Inayat Khan.

It has been very meaningful to me and confirmed that my devotion to music has immense spiritual value.

charlie oud - 11-21-2008 at 01:28 AM

:cool:

Mindfulness :cool:

use it. Peace.

Christian1095 - 11-21-2008 at 11:27 AM

Yeah, I don't know if simply playing the oud brings me closer to my faith... However, I will say that I have been happier overall since I picked up the instrument. I really enjoy the learning process... I enjoy practicing... I enjoy playing for others... so for me it's really more of a feeling of general happiness when I pick up the instrument.... It's pretty amazing that since I picked it up 6-7 months ago I haven't been able to put it down. I try to play a bit before I go to work and then at least 2-3 hours every evening.... For me the coolest thing is that even if I set goals, the horizon is always in front of me... so I'll never really perfect it... but I'm hoping I can get pretty darn good...

shareen - 11-22-2008 at 10:03 AM

John, I can understand your feeling disconnectd with your faith. I have shifted my "faith" from more organized religious rituals to more personal and spirutual ones involving music and particulary playing my oud. I think that God or Allah or whomever we see God as, meant religious rituals for people who do not have music to connect to Him with. We are the privelaged ones, the true "chosen people"...the musicians. David is one of my favorite Biblical characters because he used music to communicate with God, he calmed the troubled soul of Saul who was going insane. While at the Montreal Arabic music festival I heard the most amazing concert called "Music in the land of Mamonides" featuring a muezzin chanting from the Koran and a chazan singing Sefardi songs of Shabbat and other Jewish rituals. Music transcends all of our politics, misunderstandings and hatreds of "the other". This forum is a great example of how all of us from different backgrounds and countries that in the "real world' may be considered enemies of each other are coming together over music and the oud, one of the most ancient of musical instruments. All of us are the true peace makers and true communicators with God. I have come to love and understand my Arab cousins through the beauty of their music and culture and have truly been transformed by the music on a very deep level.

Donjis3 - 11-24-2008 at 08:53 PM

I'm looking as it is, for (title)to find a book of mine into which are discribe the basic différences between thy occidental and oriental music. they say that the key scales ,ragas..are being play in indus music from top of the key(scale) to bottom notes...and to thy occidental side it's being play from bottom to top...the reason for it as they ....explain in the book ,,,it's because in oriental music the spirit through praticing for long périod decend into thy player that is by doing so opening itself for spiritual manifestations...While in thy occidental music it is being play into ascending key (mélodie) like in Grégorians chants for example because through it peoples could élevate their states of consciousness :bowdown:

!It is said to that in the past, occidentals churchs had some kind of a vito... on music expressions because peoples could then get in touch with unwanted states of consciousnes.. seems it was so in that era...Even classical maestros bettoven etc had to have the support of the kings and others for to be able to expand their créativities ...It's in this book (if ever i can find it)that I first start to understand thy microtons réality and potientiality ...Gratitude,Don!

Please forgive my english i'm a french speakin person from near Montréal ,Québec ,Canada!Baraka bashad!

frao - 11-27-2008 at 06:36 AM

Donjis3: yep, indeed, some musical intervals were forbidden and some were permitted in official European Christian music of the early middle ages. I'm saying official because besides that there have always been other types of Christian music and the later genres of Christian Classical music have developed out out them. if you would listen to early Christian psalmodies and hymns, you would notice that they sing it only in unison, 4ths and 5ths. These three intervals were said to be pure (well, they kinda sound pure, even too pure at times). While 3rds and 6ths were thought to bring up certain sinful emotions, sensuality, eroticism, etc. And of course, 2nds and 7ths were condemned as infernal intervals. I have my own theory that, as it happened quite often in history, the acceptance of 3rds and 6ths as well as 2nds and 7ths was brought by mystical traditions of Christianity. However, with some exceptions (such as Georgian sacred music), I quite often regard Christian music as rather weak in comparison to Eastern music, after maqams and the microtones have been revealed to me. After admiring Schoenberg (the guy who "invented" atonal, twelve-tone music) and Sims (another guy who went as far as practicing microtonalism as some kind of European musical illumination), reasonably and sensually used microtones in Eastern and North African music seem to reveal a totally different universe. It's like a feeling that instead of craving for a different movie one should crave for a different reality. I'm sure that European music (including Christian music) had it's own wonderful system of microtones but was put to death by it's 'purity' gimmick. Well, it's my hypothesis. Not to start a political debate here.

Donjis3 - 11-30-2008 at 10:15 AM

Hello Frao !I could not remember the spécifique ones and theirs why's so thanks for being that précise ...Dont know about the ouds yet...but on guitars there are somes notes that naturally pops out in a moore louder way and we have to restrain picking force used over when hitting them..there might be a link... :rolleyes:

thanks to Rebostar and Charlie for the tip.as well ...Gratitude,Don! :airguitar:

Donjis3 - 11-30-2008 at 01:33 PM

Ok ! I just remember ....As far and deep as I could recall ...My first feelings for arabic music is when back then i first eard the coran verses being sing in towers...Y,tablas es!that's what got me connected...it did the sames long gone past awakening recalls .as hindous fiddle and,,,cithare did the same

as when I eard church bells...
that's it!

,Don!

Donjis3 - 11-30-2008 at 01:41 PM

Sorry about this...! (.Y,tablas es!that's what got me connected.)???Should be read :yes!That what got me connected...
(hindous fiddle and,,,cithare)????should be read as:hindous fiddle ,tablas and cithares!
my computer is tricking me!!!

,Don!

Donjis3 - 11-30-2008 at 01:47 PM

Me again

! thinking of it ! Is there someone who can tell me if koranic verses chants are using same maquams as in popular music or if they are using spécifics ones?

Gratitude,Don!