My trip to Cairo

Hey Leon,

I think its worse man, the more you eat hamburgers, the more your oud becomes further away from you and eventually you might need a flat back

All the best,

JT

Yes... please shift it all over to the Cairo thread, and when that is done I will be happy to resume uploading the remaining clips.

my preference is that discussion of material presented on my thread ought to stay on my thread - at least as long as I am still in Cairo. After that, I am not bothered.

Thanks everyone for your understanding.

The clips are now back on public viewing....

...went to an incredible concert tonight of NUBIAN music at the funky venue "MAKAN"!
got some amazing footage, will be posting soon

Edward, those videos are really wonderful, thanks a lot for sharing this with us!

Quote:

Originally posted by Danielo Edward, those videos are really wonderful, thanks a lot for sharing this with us!

Hi Edward,

Thank God order is restored now cheers Mike
I still didn't have a chance to see this videos went home last night after work and the links reqired login to youtube which I did to no avail
from what i can see above they are back on public viewing
can't wait to get home "I'm canceling my Gym practice"

Also will be great to see the Nubian concert too,
have loads of fun mate, I wish I was there with you guess what I'm already checking filght fares to Cairo for some time this year,

best regards to Cairo

...yes! I am loving it here more everyday...

getting to know more and more concert venues and musician - and now finding it hard to find practice time

Tomorrow night will meet Hazem Shaheen for the first time [i am really curious to see how LOW his action really is.... certainly sounds lower than 2mm on his clips]

Hi Mike
Great to hear from you... well, just to whet your appetites some more for this wonderful land. . . here is a clip from an unbelievable NUBIAN gig last night in this wonderful venue MAKAN.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvPjIIHUpz0


...would be great to get turned on to more egyptian players... sure was easier when joe was around

What a great time at Club Makan that must have been! really great funky grooves, the African influence is all there, an all star blend of old and modern instruments.
James Brown would have felt right at home!

Dubai, katakofka,Edward, you guys make some really good points above and there is a lot to be said about musicians and their music (I hope I've understood the points you've made), how I see it- well I try to see it in terms of the times we now live in, the whole picture, like how the world is getting smaller via mass communication, how cultures and
their musics are ever changing and sharing concepts and ideas, in what ways audiences across the globe now listen to music and what they now like to hear or understand or even want from the music and the musicians they listen to.
OK, maybe Naseer played one way when he started out, but the man still plays a mean oud now in my opinion, and as katakofka points out, perhaps many musicians need to become a bit more commercial or whatever you want to call it in order to make a living and reach out to more people. This dosen't always mean that the music they create will be second rate, for a lot of excellent music has and is being made. music is not static, and it will change with the times, tastes and circumstances of each generation. A working musician needs to be aware of what is going on out there and try and adapt, but still play with skill, integrity, a good attitude and not 'sell out' too much. It's a fine line to walk.
I also think that audiences in different places listen to and perceive music differently now than perhaps how their fathers and grandfathers listened to and understood music. I think this is happeneing everwhere, including Arabic cultures.
Could it be that perhaps the younger generations don't want to sit through long deep serious oud playing performances where what is called tarab is built up (though this still goes on in the Arab world) or buy CDs of this sort of approach to music, or appreciate what is going on musically speaking?
It seems that modern tastes, living, lifestyles, etc. are different and so a lot of modern oud playing reflects this. This must have an impact on some musicians who want to play 'seriously', but then see that their audiences prefer something different? There will always be musicians who will play for a specific audience, those who become more commercial and those who try to play the way the great oud or other instrument players of the past approched it.
To each their own. regards, MW

Suz, do you consider the style of Nasser shamma a new school in opposite to the traditional, old school? I don't agree. Nasser developed the style of Jamil Bashir and Jamil Bashir is considered old school too but was neglected. Now there is a reason why it was neglected, i guess it's due to the fact that Jamil tried to play a guitar style on the Oud. It was neglected because I presume that Farid el atrashe style, al sombati, el kasabji style took over and become what we call the old school. Why they took over? I guess it's due to the fact that it's authentic music that people liked more than playing western music on the Oud. By the way I don't know why the Bashir's family are doing such thing. Look to Omar bashir, flamenco Oud! Is it playing Oud like a guitar considered modern music? Modern, as I see it, is going back to your authentic music and make new things that emerge from authenticity, from what we are from what is our heritage.
Instrumental music is different from music having words, like a song for example, by which the words makes part in the music expression. Instrumental music is a way of expression by itself that should be at least authentic.
When I listen to some work of Jamil bashir I directly think about spanish and coarse music such as Al Solenzara
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55U0YwNlguQ
Compare to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJWlWvRzFB8
or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVSTPQTziRI

I'll leave for you the verdict

A verdict?...I won't assume such responsability

yes, that is what I was meaning by old school style...but definitely not what I think about.
Actually I used "old school" as a common understood and general definition, the one I often heard about this style.
But I join, I think, your global opinion about.
I find some authenticity in the way of playing from Naseer Shamma and love this way to develop new ways from the classical style. This is just another kind of developpement of a traditionnal heritage.

Sure "old school" doesn't mean much.
And finally...el Qassabji was very modern regarding to Zeryab way of playing.
So were is the old school?
Just remember that the technic Naseer Shamma took to play with finger, without risha, like in flamenco and classical guitar, is inspired from the technic describe in old manuscript about oud. Long long before those great egyptian players.
So I'll take care to words... now I will call now Naseer Shamma style the "antique style"

Rock on JAMIL!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kY26CkGvuo&NR=1

)

- - -

trying to get the last JT+MG clips up but experiencing technical difficulties...

- - -

had an interesting experience tonight at the National Theatre where the oud player (ensemble leader) had a fight with the violin player - RIGHT ON STAGE!!!

I will post this in a few minutes...

suz, I am more talking about Nasser the composer, the music composer rather than Nasser the oud technician or jamil the technician. No doubt they are good technicians both, but I am not sure about their music.
Here is a question: what would you guess the popular memory would keep from Nasser's work? very few I assume but my gut feeling the piece that would prevail would be "hilaal assaba". Popular memory would select over time similar to what is selected from the previous area. Why do we hear lot of baligh hamdy's bayaati and siga songs these days? Popular memory selected them.

For a while I thought that Saddam Huseen is on stage. Unbelievable ! The cello player left the scene too at the end of the clip

What a great thread and great videos Edward! I'm really enjoying listening as I write. Your own personal oud summit. Ah, we all need to bring these guys together in one place for an American oud conference. I've been here at Mike's forum since day one, and your contribution is one of the best Edward. Thanks for taking all the time to take the video, edit, and upload it. As well as your commentary. Glad you are having a blast in Egypt. Music brings people together. And that's a good thing.

Just another thought struck me, on the topic of 'chordal oud playing' becoming oud-mainstream...

I didn't realise that Jamil Bashir had developed this angle so long ago - and interesting that at that time it didn't catch on... and yes now, of course there is Omar Bashir's flamenco oud...

But anyway, back to Cairo, I can now see the long line stretching from the past and into the future:
Starting with Jamil Bashir --- next came Naseer Shamma --- now Hazem Shaheen --- soon upcoming Abouzekri --- and when you go to the OUDHOUSE Sat, Mon, or Wednesday you will see the next chordal oud-star - I don't know his name but he is a 13 year old boy playing already very very well. When I first met him I sat beside him and listened for a while as he played some nahawand composition. Then he began noodling around, and sure enough out came the chords.... major triads chromatically up and down the neck -- out of tune of course... 13 years old - clearly not really thinking about what he is doing. . . just mechanically practicing over and over and over all the things his teacher is giving him. He will be the next Abouzekri, who will be the next Shaheen, who will be the next Shamma, who is the next Bashir.......

please take me with a grain of salt All due respect to these fine, hardworking, and well deserving oud players.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16GDjKRDKlA&NR=1


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhh6m9Hd4P0&feature=related
Raed Khoshaba, iraqi player, playing Targan, "the dancing child". Played also by Nasser shamma in here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uyy3bMJuZ0&feature=related

I am back to that point because I felt I mislead you A huge reference about arabic music before the ottoman empire is the book of "al aghaani" for "abu el faraj al asfahaani" that we must mention. This is a large volume about 1000 pages describing in details, rythm and makaams and many others issues related to music. This was during the abbasid area. take a look if you're interrested http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbasid. What you had in mind was true tho
Before the islamic empires, jews and christians in the middle east have developed some sorts of makams in their religious cultures but they were simple makams in opposite to the composed makams that we found in the Islamic and turkish culture. They were basically 3 to 4 notes including of course many quarter and microtones. Some ethnomusicologists have proposed that in the middle east people are still using the same music since ages after discovering the simple makams that became afterward composed makams.

I'll leave that for Edward

Quote:

Originally posted by katakofka Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell I really didn't realise that in fact most of it originated in Turkey. That the Turks brought oud and makam system with their Ottoman empire to the Arab world including Iraq. I have thought that it was the reverse... that the thing originated perhaps in Iraq and went West to Egypt and north-west to Turkey. So in fact "Iraqi-style" is actually Targan's Turkish style... hmmmmm..... this is all very very interesting. We will all be ethnomusicologists before this is thru could not connect with WIKI for that reference book - - - pity, that sound amazing. so, what I am now getting is that makams did not ORIGINATE in Turkey [anyway, it is also clear that some maqams are clearly Arabic maqams since they are not found in the Turkish system - and vise versa)... but what perhaps you are saying is that the concept and practice of the "sophisticated/complex/composed" makam is coming from Turkey (and perhaps it came TO Turkey from Persia?? A whole new topic - - - and something else I am both curious and ignorant about... IS THE REAL ROOT OF THIS MUSIC (meaning: the sophisticated makam, not the simple folk makam) if fact coming from Persia??] ...later I would like to explore the topic of how makam (probably via the Persian dashgah) influenced the north Indian raga system and vise versa... I am back to that point because I felt I mislead you A huge reference about arabic music before the ottoman empire is the book of "al aghaani" for "abu el faraj al asfahaani" that we must mention. This is a large volume about 1000 pages describing in details, rythm and makaams and many others issues related to music. This was during the abbasid area. take a look if you're interrested http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbasid. What you had in mind was true tho Before the islamic empires, jews and christians in the middle east have developed some sorts of makams in their religious cultures but they were simple makams in opposite to the composed makams that we found in the Islamic and turkish culture. They were basically 3 to 4 notes including of course many quarter and microtones. Some ethnomusicologists have proposed that in the middle east people are still using the same music since ages after discovering the simple makams that became afterward composed makams.

Edward: the book I mentioned, in which the essence of arabic music is described, is for abu al faraj al asfahaani. Asfahani means that he's from Asfahan, persia, iran . Definitely the islamic empire took from the Persian culture. Like any other invaders, islamic or turkish didn't build from scratch. They used what existed, what they found in place, then they arranged, created new ways, which became afterward their own way.
One place that you should visit during your quest and to have a clear picture is Iran, a mysterious, extremely cultural rich place.

Hi Edward

I would second Katakofka's view of Iran. I went many times as a child up till the revolution in 1979, it is where my mother was born - she is Armenian. I loved going there, and the friendliness and wicked humour of that region. It is a very particular place, little known but hugely influencial. It is also has some of the most beautiful landscapes on earth, and astonishing architecture (although the modern concrete creations only serve to emphasise the wisdom of the ancients!!).

Below the political surface is a poetic and witty cultural beauty that I think has deep and ancient roots, embedded in the landscape and the stars that are so bright away from the cities.

There are interesting leaps in the musical influence - there are strong connections with Armenian music, particularly the slower soulful minatures you may have heard on Duduk, and also the really wild Azeri dance music. You mentioned the 'way out' playing that certain obscure maqams open up earlier - well you should hear some of this stuff!! Once you become attuned to it it makes perfect sense.

The link to raga is really easy to hear also, and Afghanistan which borders Iran to the east forms another musical step to India.

BUT - you are in EGYPT ... haha I almost forgot. As my Buddhist teachers used to advise, enjoy the place you are in for you have everthing you will ever need right now

Leon

Hi Leon

Yes... you have been reading my thinking! ...actually in the last while I have been enjoying myself so much and especially the contact with cultures I've never before contacted directly - it has inspired me to travel further.

At the moment, with my visa situation in the EU (where I "live"), means that every 3 months I MUST leave the EU for 3 months before they will let me back in and "home" again... since I currently "live" with my girlfriend in Czech. So until I can resolve my residency there, and as long as I still have a few bucks, I simply MUST travel --- or go back to Canada.

I am pulled in two possible directions:
-either Africa
-or Persia

either to go South and inject my musical experience with GROOVE!
or East, and continue to explore refinements in sophisticated MELODY.

Probably I am not yet ready for Africa, or maybe it is not yet ready for me. My feeling is that I might want to wait for it to develop and rejuvinate a bit more--- I know there are some music school just starting up across Africa (Mali in particular)... and maybe it needs more time...

...also maybe I feel like my "makam quest" is not yet finished and Iran is probably the major mystery link. . . . afterall, my own music now is a marriage btw raga and makam, so it is clear that there is a black hole in the middle - Persian dashgah!

One thing has confused me... ok, there is a clear division btw north and south Indian music, and the reason is that the south was not affected by the invasions from the west. Now they never say concretely who was invading india from the west - usually they just say 'central asian arians'... so I guess this means Persian, Turkmens, Afghans... etc... but probably mostly Persian.

On the other hand we hear that in India before the 250 years of British rule, there was 450 years of Moghul rule. So who are these Moghuls --- supposedly these are the 'central asians'. So I am guessing that what we are talking about is the HUNS (who went as far as HUNgary and orginated that race there) --- you know, those incredibly violent tribe from Mongolia!

So perhaps the Mongolian first took over Persia, and then came down to North India....? ok, I'm confused. . . .) but starting to get the picture.

Musically we can see the difference btw north and south Indian music. Carnatic (south) is very composed and bouncy and a bit light, whereas Hindustani music is much more improvised and often very slow and contemplative (probably THIS is the Persian influence) --- well..... TAR, SETAR, SITAR, RABAB, SAROD... hey, the connection is OBVIOUS!

Of course, about 150 years ago in the region Indian music and culture was considered the highest thing and therefore one King imported from India to Afghanistan hundreds of Indian musicians and teachers and set it all up in Kabul. This is why when you go now to Kabul and check out how they play - actually what you see is what Indian music was like 150 years ago, because after it was imported there, it was cut off from it's source and therefore stopped developing - - -

----but getting back to the other thing I'm confused about. When you look at the map, the entire region from Egypt to India is connected... but in terms of music, although clearly there is an obvious connection btw Iran and India, still the connection btw Egypt and Iran is much stronger. Many of the maqams and dashgah are just the same... humayun, mahur, rast.... etc etc etc.

So where is this breaking point on the map? Where is the line, or the region which divides these two worlds: the Raga world, and the Makam world?

From what you just wrote you imply that Persian music is great influenced by either Armenia or Azeri.. We know that Afghans and central asians always had music but these are mountain lands and the indiginous music is more simply and folky --- again, SIMPLE MAKAMS as opposed to "composed classical" makams.

So what I am hearing is that perhaps the classical source of Persian music is coming from the north-west region - and somewhat divorced from the south-east of Iran??

This would explain a lot! Because otherwise, if in the southeast of iran is an old and very rich classical music culture - then it is hard to see how this would not have mixed more with indian music since they are close geographically.

The problem is actually that modern political maps are very inaccurate in terms of cultural representation! Can you imagine, if you know very little about the Soviet Union, or Russia, and just looked at a map to try to figure out what are the influence on Russian culture??? Of course, Russia is a totally 'lop-sided' country (as are most countys)... with the focal point being the capital city way over to the West. Same thing with Canada! NOTHING is happening in the north... but look at a map and the ingorant person has not way of knowing this.

So this is way I have always been confused about Iran.

My guess is that the fine art culture is centered in the north west, and the south east is mostly desert and therefore inhibited exchange with India. . . .

I gotta go there and find these things out.

Just another side note - - - one time while hanging out the Ross Daly one day at his museum on Crete, I asked him if he regrets now having this museum and school to take care of and if he would like to travel again WHERE WOULD HE GO. He immediately said that the only place he would now really like to go would be to Azerbaijan.

Hi Ed

I wasn't really implying that Persian music was influenced by Armenian and Azeri music but that these flavours can be heard in al three types, and by extension these types of threads of influence mean that you tend to get centres of musicality crystalising strongly or weakly in different places.

You ought to listen to Chechen and Ingush music if you get chance if you are interested in getting a sense of musical gradation across the Caucausus from Turkey, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Iran (and all the others!!), over to Russia.

You may well find that particularly in mountainous places you get huge differences from one series of valleys to another, and that the incluences go down river and mix in the plains. The area of transcaucasia, Northern Iran, Eastern Turkey and Northern Syria are very mountainous and similar in geography to the area of what is now Northern Pakistan from where it is widely accepted that the roots of Vedanta grew and eventually spread its influence far west, East and particularly South, forming the basis from which Budhism, Hinduism, Jainism etc flourished.

I'm no historian, so this is just a sense of what I have picked up from travels and yoga practice etc, but I know that trying to categorize influences becomes very quickly impossible - but there are definate nodal points where the confluence of influence and circumstance cause distinctive (musical) cultures to be expressed.

This is one interesting thread

Thanks for letting the cat out of the bag

Leon

Hello Edward,

Great to see you doing well in Cairo. Although, I dont like implicating myself in such discussions. I really really have to ask about source material here. There are many legends and stories. And to say Zeryab, a man that lived so long ago wanted to make music 12 tone blah blah etc, is a bit absurd if its not backed up by historical source material. There is legend he was killed because he wouldnt play the Kings oud which was far inferior to his..this is legend of a great musician. But to really state the above really has to be backed up. This is cafe music talk.

This brings me to a topic which Ive written. In my university honours thesis I wrote a paper called "Conservatism, Western Influences and Contradiction". I am willing to get hammered for this I guess...please dont

But Arabic musicians love to talk. They are always unhappy with something and fair enough with alot of the pop music that doesnt agree with the past. The fact of the matter is, its what suits the musician you're talking too. I dont see the music now as garbage, the inhabitants are different people, different lives, different economy and music has always been a reflection of the time we live in. Im not against the music of today, but it is a representation of our time. Also, alot of the stuff that is happening is because the people incharge give power to those that are not suitable, and that is also an issue. The Oud House for instance is not run by an Egyptian oud player which I find is odd. But I would think if you want to teach Egyptian oud, you would imply an Egyptian to do this, no? (I have nothing against Oustaz Nasseer, dont get me wrong)

Their are pros and cons to everything I guess.
We cant even really classify the term 'classical'. This to some people is samai' etc to others its "Oum Kalsoum" (love you Souma!), to others its "Mouwashahat". I personally think there is no definition. The definition has been lost, not the music. Orchestral Arabic music, already there is an issue. Although I love Arabic orchestras of today, really in the past they didnt exist. A takht existed, 2-5 musicians, this grew and became grander and grander and now its a different way of presenting music. So I dont think theres a right way...most of them have keyboards and electric guitar aswell, Im sure these didnt exist at time of Ziryab or before 1930 for that matter.

But the other issue is these musicians who claim to be purist (Im picking on no one, this is general), have alot of contradiction. Alot will say the state of classical music is doomed and when they get on the stage play music that is not really classical, or there taqasim will include a blues scale or something not Eastern to crowd please or to show they listen to other music. They will play the favourites. If it really comes down to it forms like Longa are not traditional arabic, but its a form that has made its way through.
There is no practice what you preach in Egypt. Music constantly evolves, if its for the good or bad, thats not for me to say, But this hypocricy has to be addressed. Its something that really confuses me when I talk with musicians in Egypt. I think to be a well rounded musician you have to listen alot and by listening, you cant help but be inspired by others and other musics. This is a good thing. The way I see it music is a language. If you play the oud (as an example) you're having a conversation in Arabic and occassionaly you my put a few words or sentences in English, but this should no way dominate your taqasim. I only think this is a problem when you Start a taqasim in English and have a few words of Arabic.
You cant tell me the music we hear today or heard on recordings 80 years ago were like what Ziryab played, theres no proof of this. So all these musicians who write albums based on manuscripts they found centuries ago is all speculation, unfortuantely we will never know. Theres no music notation like the west, and unlike the west we really dont have a great guide for how the music sounded of the past. I think the closest we can get is Islamic or Christian chant from the area, and even within this it must have evolved.

I rememeber speaking to an oud player who was so patriotic about classical and dismissed Shammas way of playing, yet this is where he learnt. And when I went to his recital it was like listening to Shamma, so this confuses me. I asked him later, why are you learning with him then, he said because he has a good technique...Unfortunately these "classical" music authorities appoint themselves and everybody claims to have there own way, but really offer no solutions. Before we can look into the classical arabic music, we really have to define what is classical? I think this should be a conference. Then we can start discussing and talk about the deteriation of the music or evolution for some.

I think also, oud timbre is also a factor. Many of the Egyptian players play moveable bridge Iraqi style ouds. Playing a traditional Egyptian taqasim here, may already be dismissed by the purist as the oud timbral qualities and even appearance may not suit the solo. I have had this happen when I was with a friend who claims to be a real listener dismissed a solo for a young oud player which I deemed to have a really beautiful arabic phrasing, as 'not arabic' because he was playing an Iraqi style oud. So this is even a further issue to be discussed. Man, Im confused...

Things should and have to co-exist, infact they do. An artist should not forget the roots of the music but should be free to deliver what they like. You either eat from the food or not. You can go to a pop or rock concert or choose not too. Music is take it or leave it.
I for instance am an Australian oud player, my style is Australian. I love Egypt, I love my roots, I love the oud masters, but I think my style is the product of my environment. Im an Egyptian Australian oud player I guess
Musical environment is important, and this has to brought into account.

Music is for everybody. You can take it or leave. Offer solutions or not, theres way to much talk in general and unfortunately alot of it is a political problem or a rivalry between another musician. Musicians there have to survive like anywhere and have to offer what the audience wants in many ways.

Im confused writing this... Just dribble from me, but its cold here in Paris and this has warmed me up Im sorry Ive gone on this massive rant, I can delete it if you guys like? Maybe nothing is classical anymore?

Best regards,

JT

Hey Joe

Thanks for your time... this was a very enlightening rant more please!

There are many topics you have touched on - - just one of them, you ask: "what is classical?"
I remember having this conversation many times with Ross Daly... and he would always say that with Oriental music these terms classical/folk should be dropped because they are inaccurate. He suggested that they should be replaced with the terms URBAN/RURAL.

Hello Joe and Edward

Well I think Edward is on a quest and you don't pretend to know all the facts, It would be great if Michael Moussa could chip in, he has a really interesting knowledge of the development of the oud. Awad has footage of Michael's talk on this but it is probably too long to post.

I agree with your sentiment Joe, and was trying to express something of this when I said ...

'I'm no historian, so this is just a sense of what I have picked up from travels and yoga practice etc, but I know that trying to categorize influences becomes very quickly impossible - but there are definate nodal points where the confluence of influence and circumstance cause distinctive (musical) cultures to be expressed.'

The problem is that just as people can get racist and dogmatic about being 'British', 'Persian', 'Russian', 'French' and all te others, so the same root of fear can reflect in music. I think it is good for some to preserve and express particular forms of music but when they denigrate those that take a more eclectic approach (and vice versa), then it all goes pear shaped. What you said Joe about power and influence is really interesting.

I feel that what you are doing with this thread is to throw open your curiosity and obvious enthusiasm as to the myriad pathways that culture takes.

BTW I would imagine that the Egyptian use of fast tremelo seems more stylistically like an African and Andalusian influence - the Persian style is very different, much more repetitive and built up layer by layer into an overall patterned (like their carpets). There is also a Coptic influence in Egypt, and from my few conversations with Michael last year, this sounds pretty astonishing. He mentioned a form of liturgy of astonishing internal architecture that encapsulates all the nuances of a modal system very similar to Arabic maqam.

Last thing is that in the spirit of Joe's coments, I would say that one of the biggest challenges of learning to play oud has been one of cultural relevance to myself. I was drwn to it for obvious reasons of past familly roots but I grew up in the UK and have been into every type of music that there is, the UK is an amazing cultural melting pot - even though it is very cold and snowy at the moment I've played guitar for far longer than oud, and with guitar there is not the same difficulty because it has been expressed in such a varied range of styles ... imagine someone saying only 'classical' guitar style was the true way - you would just think they were nuts.

Hey Joe you are right it does warm you up - I'd just got in from taking the kids to school on their sledge!! Please don't delete your post, your thesis sounds interesting - maybe you could tell us more.

Thanks Edward for you creative openess.

Leon

Hi Edward. I didn't actually use the word 'mix', but what I wished to convey was that the influences of Indian raga and maqam helped to shape the musics within Andalucia, and so to my mind Spain/Andalucia is a pretty good contender for that 'breaking point' you refer to. Flamenco ( with its rather flattened use of those microtones when played on the guitar, but still there in cante jondo) is the most obvious or commercial musical form to rise out of those influences, and which seems to be happily played in some manner or other by oudies, for better or for worse.
I am not an ethno-musicoligist, but the music and instruments of Islam which entered India ( Turks and Persians during the Delhi sultanate, c.12th century) apparently made some impact there. We then find musicians migrating back and forth between Hindu and Muslim courts as the fortunes of local rajas and najabs went up and down. From there some migrated on to Andalucia, where those influences were shaped further and again travelled on.
On a more general note, to my ears I believe I hear influences of the raga within the maqam framework in some contemporary oud playing. Perhaps someone out there can add further musical references? cheers, MW

I would call this Western... but borrowing some microtones from the maqam. I really enjoyed this music, it is one of the best fusions I have seen, and in fact the only one I have heard that uses microtones... FINALLY!!!!! ...this is exactly the direction I think EastWest fusion could be doing a lot more of.

Makes me happy because I can see now that I am not just a cynical a...hole negative about all Western things ...I think there are so many great things from the West, but I get irritated when it seems that the fusions are so often just taking the worst elements from each culture, rather than the best - - - as we can see on this clip in my opinion...

THANKS!

hi katakofka - I would also call this western music. What is interesting is that you will find that John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Jimmy Garrison ( bass),Pharoah Sanders and other jazz pioneers of the late 1950s -1960s also experimented with various forms of musical expression including modal and microtones- all done with western reed or brass instruments like sax, trumpet, trombone,upright fretless bass but they just didn't have an oud player in the line up! Ziad may have even been inspired by those guys.

Agree, but not completely Western since you hear microtones but the overall tendency is Western reason why Ziad stopped doing such music. This dated from the beginning of the 80s. He said many times that these assays are a total failure in his view.
Listen to this Bayati and the rhythm used in that song by the same composer, sung by Fayrouz.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi9I8gJdB30
I find here something really new on a bayaati makam but the rhythm is unusual, not 2/4 or 4/4 add on the lovely arrangement of the orchestra. This was live taken from the stage in year 2000 (or 2004, I don't recall exactly).

Quote:

Originally posted by MatthewW hi katakofka - I would also call this western music. What is interesting is that you will find that John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Jimmy Garrison ( bass),Pharoah Sanders and other jazz pioneers of the late 1950s -1960s also experimented with various forms of musical expression including modal and microtones- all done with western reed or brass instruments like sax, trumpet, trombone,upright fretless bass but they just didn't have an oud player in the line up! Ziad may have even been inspired by those guys.

Hello Edward!

We have such a luck to have one of us on the hot spot!


Can you give some information about studies in Oud house, who are the teachers, does Naseer Shamma teaches himself, how much are the lessons, how is the lewel of the teachers... & all the things? I was supossed to go to Cairo in february, but it will wait a while...
Thank you so much for sharing your adventure with others!

Quote:

Originally posted by katakofka Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell I would call this Western... but borrowing some microtones from the maqam. Agree, but not completely Western since you hear microtones but the overall tendency is Western reason why Ziad stopped doing such music. This dated from the beginning of the 80s. He said many times that these assays are a total failure in his view. Listen to this Bayati and the rhythm used in that song by the same composer, sung by Fayrouz. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi9I8gJdB30 I find here something really new on a bayaati makam but the rhythm is unusual, not 2/4 or 4/4 add on the lovely arrangement of the orchestra. This was live taken from the stage in year 2000 (or 2004, I don't recall exactly).

Quote:

Originally posted by Marina Hello Edward! We have such a luck to have one of us on the hot spot! Can you give some information about studies in Oud house, who are the teachers, does Naseer Shamma teaches himself, how much are the lessons, how is the lewel of the teachers... & all the things? I was supossed to go to Cairo in february, but it will wait a while... Thank you so much for sharing your adventure with others!

I took it from my CD and put it on youtube and Yessss it needs lot of music education to make these fusion well done.
Listen to that bayaati also
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AOnPHNqkbM&feature=channel
And the one I loved the most from the same concert a music Called Dyaar Bakr. It's a bayaati 6/8, from min 5 in the link below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cinJNLF4o6o&feature=channel
Trompet, trombone..etc all playing quater tones

very impressive what they have done... the microtones are there and add a new colour. And most importantly they do not HURT

I would simply call this MODAL JAZZ. The chords are not really like a progression - rather, like modal chords.

they have done a great job of adding ONE microtone... however I feel this is just the beginning - since adding just one microtone is not THAT big a deal really. Just for the sake of discussion, I would add that what I miss is modulation in other makams, and also the FULL exposure of bayati. Just to play bayati like an aolian mode with a 1/4 flat second degree is not really bayati, because what bayati shifts to the upper tetrachord the 6th degree becomes a 1/4 flat rather than a full flat...

so, as much as it makes me totally joyful to see musicians bothering to take it THIS far... I still feel it is just the beginning of what is possible, and just the very tip of the iceberg (or the sand-dune))

more great music - THANKS!

it is a pity we need to lable music... because often it is the unclassifiable which has the most value

still it sounds predominantly Western to my ears... and VERY VERY jazz orientated.

I would call it Lebanese jazz

Hey Ed..I suggest changing the name of the thread, make it...my trip to Lebanon I talked a lot about Ziad but still I hope I was able to give you an idea about a different kind of music that people are trying in the Middle east. Sincerely I feel he is probably the only person doing serious music in the arab world.
Back to the main point. I hope I was able to show that composing on oriental makams without being repetitive is feasible and without being repetitive or traditional. It just need the right musical education. I am not a professional musician but I am trying to play something unusual as you see in my youtube page. I wanna still trying and playing oriental makams as much as I can to "fight" against shamma's oud style and maybe I would influence a professional musician one lucky day. Believe me I would be very glad

Hi Kata

Yes absolutely! ...and I am glad you didn't misunderstand me. I sincerely thank you for making me aware of these clips and this music. You caused a revolution in my own thinking and in my future vocabulary - - from now on I am going to stop pointing the accusing finger at the West - and instead, if I don't like any particular music - simply accept that this music is not to my taste and that someone else might get something out of it...

Yes it is clearly time to completely accept that the East and West and North and South and everywhere else are all mixed and fused for better or worse. The time to sensor and shield ourselves and music from any influence has long past and become impossible. All that remains to do is simply make the very best music we can, and stop thinking about what influences what.

Now I am repeating myself, but I wil say it again --- I was a professional Westen musician before I ever heard a maqam note... I was seeking creative and advanced forms of Western music all thru my teens and early 20's. Therefore my tastes became pretty refined --- I think that this is why I am not impressed with (as you call it) the Shamma school. Those guys are using chords but I am SURE that their exposure to Western music (and how wild and wonderful chordal music can really get!) is not very extensive. It doesn't impress my ears.

Now, to be fair - by the same token... I myself and doing "professional" music with maqam influence - and I am sure that those who are either very advanced maqam listeners or players will not be overly impressed with what I do with maqam, simply because being a latecomer to maqam my depth of experience with the idiom will never reach their depth -

But this does not mean that I should not use maqams the best I can, and that Shamma should not use chords the best he can.

Shamma's music and very fundamental use of chords can and does appeal to those who are just beginning their exposure to chordal music... afterall, when we first begin to listen to any musical idiom we need to acclimatise ourselves to the most fundamental form of it - - - you can NOT understand bebop without a long pre-education and acclimatisation to the idiom and complex chord changes (largely because the players assume that the audience is familiar with the chord structure, and therefore can LEAVE OUT MAJOR SECTIONS of the music, and imply the rest - - - so in this way the audience gets pleasure - - - but without this "knowing the idiom" bebop" just sounds like a senseless wash of notes------as it did to me for years until I studied it). Can we imagine that Shamma would have suddenly come out with chordal music as sophisticated as bebop???? His "chordally young" Oriental audience would have thrown SHOES at him.)

Same with maqam... until you know it and have 'lived in it' you will only likely be able to enjoy it in it's most fundamental form.

Ahmed fathi or Abedi el Gohar both have similar style to Farid el atrash. Ammar el shirii is a know keyboard player and composer I didn't know that he plays oud too. The other 2 guys never heard of. Looking forward for new videos with Ahmad Fathi

How can someone switch from oud to keyboards?)

I finally got around to visiting MAURICE (mauriceouds.com) who is considered the best oud maker in Egypt.
Very nice guy - rather humble workshop... no powertools and just a couple of guys working away... Maurice in his office surrounded by beautiful and AMAZING ouds. I had a very good feeling from the whole operation. I tried out some ouds and they all sounded very resonant and rich... but each one was very unique and different from the next one... also in how they looked.

Maurice seems an expert in decorating the backs. One on them was decorated with tortoise shells (foto below)... just amazing!

His shop is rather out of the way and tough to find . otherwise I would hang out there daily...
He said his least expensive oud is $1000... and I am sure the top custom super decoration models go thru the roof. I was interested to see fotos of one oud he made for the King of Oman... because when I was at Faruk Turunz's place (also 2 years ago) Faruk was making 2 ultra-super quality ouds also for that King... so, quite a collecter that guy!

Maurice also told me about several supposedly great arabic oud players, and none of them I had heard of... so this give me some more research material :-)

enjoy the fotos. . . .

Pictures, please!

I am getting LAZY!

I also have some cool videos.... but as I said, my laptop is now in service... so those will unfortunately have to wait. . . . .

wow, life without a notebook

Edward, I hope you're alright!! I just heard that there was an explosion in Cairo today, and a few foreigners were killed and others injurered. Please post ASAP and let us know you're OK!!

Yep your last post registered. I'm glad you're OK it just worried me because a few people had been killed and they were tourists. It's a shame stuff like this happens but I'm not going to talk about it and turn it into a political disscussion...

You live to Oud another day!