The REAL Egyptian/Arab MAQAM???

Brian, you make some very good points, and I agree with what you say about bebop.

...also, if you have found a way to think about makam that has helped you to understand it then all the power to ya. Personally I think that all these types of music require us as individuals to figure out our own ways to make sense out of them. Some people are more right brained - some more left brain, some some people work better off intuition - others a more intellectual approach.

I know I have the tendency to get very enthusiastic about what has worked for me, and then in my enthusiasm sometimes try to ram my ideas down other peoples throats )

I think, whatever works to help us make beautiful music is totally ok by me!

I feel it like a long staircase we must climb... and those of us who are native Westerners must realise and accept that. Everything that I say and suggest is coming from one Westerner to supposedly another.

I have to agree with you Brian that an ideal situation is the one you describe in which the master is always nearby to "direct" the young students 'ear development' -- -- -- just the way a child learns to speak a spoken language simply thru talking and listening, rather than thru books.

However, from my own experience, with, when I started playing the oud 15 years ago, I could hardly even find recording!! Let alone theoretical teaching. . . . all I could find were a few recordings and a few lists of scales. This did not help me too much.

It was not until I encountered the very precisely laid out and systematic Ottoman approach that the whole thing began to make A LOT of sense.

However, as Eliot suggests, this finally is just one more step in the grand staircase because in fact this "theory" is only perhaps a more detailed 'direction pointer' - it is not finally exactly what the musicians play.

Luckily, my teachers have always made it clear to me that with makam music there is NO fixed way... and that in the end the theory will always contradict the practice - - - - so keeping this always in mind is very helpful.

happy climbing

...i will admit to one thing that irritates my about music in Turkey (and anywhere), is when musicians have to read the music on stage. First of all I hate the music stands blocking the view, and second, I feel that the act of having to use the intellect so forcefully to read the notes - acts as a block to the heart element.

my feeling is that if the musicians can't memorise the pieces, they should play more simple pieces and improvise more. . . . OR at least reduce the amount of onstage sight-reading to a point at which it does not dominate the concert.

The written page is a relatively new thing in Turkey - I heard that it was introduced first by a Polish guy!

Ed
There is an efficient system in Turkey to produce quality instrument players. Yordal and the best players in Turkey teach in the ITU. Have you seen those trio oud players of the group" 3edm"? the 3 of them studied in the ITU and many others I assume.
Where are the best players in Egypt and are they teaching? is there any national institute in which a student musician is encouraged to enter? Beit el oud is not a reflection of the Egyptian style on oud as we all agree on that.
Syria is a better place than Egypt in my view to get a clear idea about arabic oud playing. Although there is a Turkish influence in syria (north of syria mainly) however oud players there (Alepo and Damas) are much more traditional as compared to what you find in Egypt where the influence of Nasser shamma's style has a major impact.
So...move to syria and Damas and go to the arabic institute there and you might get a different picture

One of the best oud player in Syria is Issam Rafea who has a position as Chair of the Arabic Music Department University in Damascus.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90IM6mu8Two
He came to the Kennedy Center in 2004.The concert was arranged by the Syrian government and the Syrian ambassador in the US to promote Syrian music.

Quote:

Originally posted by katakofka Ed There is an efficient system in Turkey to produce quality instrument players. Yordal and the best players in Turkey teach in the ITU. Have you seen those trio oud players of the group" 3edm"? the 3 of them studied in the ITU and many others I assume. Where are the best players in Egypt and are they teaching? is there any national institute in which a student musician is encouraged to enter? Beit el oud is not a reflection of the Egyptian style on oud as we all agree on that. Syria is a better place than Egypt in my view to get a clear idea about arabic oud playing. Although there is a Turkish influence in syria (north of syria mainly) however oud players there (Alepo and Damas) are much more traditional as compared to what you find in Egypt where the influence of Nasser shamma's style has a major impact. So...move to syria and Damas and go to the arabic institute there and you might get a different picture One of the best oud player in Syria is Issam Rafea who has a position as Chair of the Arabic Music Department University in Damascus. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90IM6mu8Two He came to the Kennedy Center in 2004.The concert was arranged by the Syrian government and the Syrian ambassador in the US to promote Syrian music.

this is true what you say.

and very good advice to go to Syria - - - and wouldnt that be funny because it was a Syrian oud player that very first TURNED ME ON TO THE OUD. The first time i heard omar nachichbendi I KNEW i must learn that!

Great idea - and THANKS Brian!

...generally what confuses me and has lead me to my current opinions is that when I do come across an Arab player who really seems to know the theory, generally what they are telling me is that the Arab and the Ottoman makam theory is just totally the same thing... the only difference is that after the Turks left, some of the interval placings shifted (some for cultural reasons, others for convenience as a result of the conference).

This is why finally I have decided simply to take the Ottoman system as my SOURCE for makam theory (since I find nothing lacking there - as far as ANY theory can go)... what I am mostly trying to catch from Arab music is the style and form.

When I look at Arab maqamat from an Ottoman theoritcal viewpoint I can understand it well. The Ottoman details help me to understand what is going on. . . . thereafter there obviously seem different ways that each school develops certain makams. . . for example Rast goes in very different directions typically in both schools, but all of it is intellegible if I make use of Ottoman theory.

Now, after I look much more deeply into Arab vocal music, and perhaps make a trip to syria, then my opinions and practice might change.

Everything is always open to revision

i'll have that list on Friday

haha!

The funny thing is that Mohammed promised me that list on our 3 hour train journey to Alex. for our gig, but as it turned out the bendir player and the singer, both also blind guys, ended up sitting with Mohammed and they were just having a hell of a time - 3 hours of continuous joking and laughing (drove me nuts after a while))

...so, no list yet.

But I do want to add that during my VERY LONG rehearsals with Antar (typically 6 hours long --- during which we actually practice for about 20 minutes) we have enjoyed hours and hours of long conversation. I am teaching him some things about Indian music and he is teaching me A LOT about Arab and Turkish music.

In fact, I wanted to add that he has really finally set me straight with regard to my confusion about the origin of makam, and thinking that a lot of it was coming from Turkey. I realise now that Arab classical music itself is an extremely sophisticated affair and has been going on in very developed form for more than 1000 years.

The problem is that here and now there is not much of it left. Almost nothing in Cairo, so it gets you wondering! This is really a pity. Egypt has suffered greatly as a result of colonisation. Egyptians have A LOT of work to do in order to find themselves again and rebuild what they have lost. IMO

feldman's ottoman court and non-turkish sources

Quote: Originally posted by eliot

This whole "more real" or "more authentic" or "more anything" argument is a red herring. Who were the Ottomans who created makam-s? Were they only Turks? No. Walter Feldman's lengthy and, unfortunately mistitled, Music of the Ottoman Court accomplishes very well the objective of ascertaining exactly who composed, performed, and consumed the music now known as TSM/ KTM/ OSM. At certain points in time, the majority of the sultanate-employed musicians were not Turkish at all but Persians, Jews, Greeks, Armenians, Roma, Arabs, Moldavians, etc. At other points in time, the balance shifted so that many more Turks were involved in the creation of urban music. So whose music is it? The Dede Efendi makam-s in Turkey were highly influenced, we know, from him observing opera performances that happened from 1797 onwards (Sultan Selim III loved European opera and sponsored its happening in Istanbul). It could easily be argued that Dede Efendi "westernized" the makam system. Yes, some of his makam entities were more complex, but are they more or less real for it? Masel's right to point out the Persian origin of certain makams and makam names. The Persian makam system existed and was used up until the creation of the dastgah system, then fell out of use somewhat. However, we don't really know how much of the Persian system really spread throughout the Middle East, and whether anything other than some maqam names and some basic interval patterns spread as well. We will NEVER be able to prove that the maqam/makam system as we know it today originated in one place and spread, since we lack solid evidence about what musical systems existed throughout Anatolia, in Egypt, in the Levent, etc. that were either displaced or adapted to fit within a system of maqam. We do not have repertoire from 13th-17th century Iran that is widely played in either the current Turkish or Arab speaking world. We don't even really know how widespread the knowledge of maqamat was in the 17th century, outside of the few people who wrote about it. So I hesitate to affirm that maqam went from point A to B, end of story. It's not as if Persians were not influenced by musicians, music styles, and thought that came from abroad. A lot of stuff was in circulation during the Safavid period - Islamic jurisprudence scholars, musicians, philosophy, material goods, instruments, maqamat, etc.

Wow, a very interesting thread indeed... I'm by no means an expert in this, but I have been wondering many times about this.

I remember reading that Dimitirie Cantemir, of Moldavian origin, one of the composers and musicologists at the Ottoman court, wrote that there was sort of a competition going on between the Persians (who were considered to be above all others and have the richest musical tradition) and the Turks. The Turks borrowed heavily from Persian classical music, but, as Elliot pointed out, since most musicians and composers were in fact either Greek, Armenian, Romanian, Italian, Polish, etc, "western" influences sneaked in as well. At one point the Turks had evolved so much that the then reigning sultan invited a Persian convoy to come listen to his musicians - that it now rivalled the splendor of that of the Persians.

Interestingly he was quite condescending of Arab musical culture, saying that "Turks and Persians enjoy music the most", they live it and breathe it, but "the Arabs do not enjoy music at all".

Furthermore, a lot of Turkish makams have persian names... (Rast, isfahan, zirefkend, pencgah, etc etc).

On the other hand, a similar system existed already in the Byzantine lands, like reminore said.

It's alive even today, also in the Romanian tradition:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiAAE0TxX1U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJN9xZ3tnKA&feature=related

As far as I know, Byzantine music knows 8 makams (at least in Romanian orthodox tradition, called "eh" or "glas"). Four of them are the main, parent makams and the other four are derivatives. Perhaps there used to be more? I don't know. They do not have names, but just numbers (either I to VIII or I-IV and I plagal to IV plagal, depending on school). This tradition definitely existed before the Turks arrived and you can also hear the influence it exerted on Turkish classical music (and ilahi).

So where did this originate? In my layman's opinion, Byzantine musical tradition is a result of Christianity's eastern roots: Jewish "tehilim" tradition of chanting psalms and middle eastern singing (in the beginning, the Church was the strongest in the Levant...)

I suppose it's extremely difficult to find a definite historical answer to all this, as nationalism unfortunately often plays a big role in these matters

By the way Edward, I'm playing Turkish (or is it Byzantine ) style, and I know many others on this forum do

Very interesting topic though, I could talk about this for days. In the end I think everything blended a bit... it's very unclear what originated when and where.. Too bad sometimes some people claim it exclusively for themselves!

I have a really good recording of some of Zaharya Hanende's pieces.

http://www.buyarabic.com/storeItem.asp?ic=MU9398677GN785

This is very good!

The books: 'Music of the Ottoman Court', and 'A History of Arabian Music to the 13th Century' deal with older music (pre' 19th cent').

I am also studying to be an Ethnomusicologist myself, and am very involved in extensive research into this maqam music.
I agree that the 19th century was a time of nationalism, and that this music is a shared tradition; no one ethnic group 'owns' it.

This is also very good. Isak Algazi was a top singer of Ottoman music and a Synagogue cantor, he would listen to the Mevlevi's and they would listen to him, very much a mutual respect.

http://www.amazon.com/Algazi-Efendi-Rabbi-Isaac-Turkey/dp/B000VYBYY...

This website: http://analogion.com/
is very interesting, thanks.
I will look more into this music.