Mike's Oud Forums

Seyir

Tom Moran - 4-1-2009 at 04:39 AM

I'm sure that this has been covered before, but can someone give me a brief, if at all possible, explanation of what is meant by "seyir". From what I understand, each maqam as its own. What would bayati's seyir be, for example?

Edward Powell - 4-1-2009 at 05:11 AM

yes this has been covered... but it is very important - so let's cover it again :)

but be careful about asking about Bayati, because Turks and Arabs treat it quite differently. You can very easily get confused.

Seyir is simply the 'essential road map' of the makam. Makam is not just a scale... because it has a seyir.

for each makam you need to know:
1- what are the tetrachords
2- what is the dominant
3- what is the most important playing region -low-mid-or high
4- what is more important -tonic, dominant, or octave
5- what happens to the "unstable" notes as you change direction...
6- which notes do you develop first, 2nd, 3rd etc etc
7- what is the makam ending

The more EXTENDED SEYIR will give you ideas about small and big modulations.

Arabs treat Bayati somewhat like Turks play makam USSAK. But Turks play bayati with a more specific seyir which determines that the DOMINANT note (the 4th degree in this case) is the most important note.
Therefore Arabs will start a bayati taksim with the tonic... Turks will never do this - Turks will start Bayati taksim always with the 4th degree.

adamgood - 4-1-2009 at 05:49 AM

For Beyati seyir, let's go to a composition. A sarki by Rahmi Bey:

http://www.adamgood.com/turkish_nota/piece.php?id=153&size=394

Everything up to the Coda sign will give you the seyir. Learn this melody and you'll know the seyir for Beyati :)

For an (intellectual) understanding of Beyati at the most basic level...which would be about my level :) you can at least know that:

1. The beginning starts around the dominant (Neva) written here as a "D" on the staff.

2. Notice in the 4th bar of the song, note the pitch Acem, written as "F"...it's very important pitch to Beyati so I kind of conclude for myself that Neva and Acem are pitches that define Beyati in the beginning of the seyir.

3. Now notice the beginning of the 3rd line, he is showing another important trick beyati can and almost always will do, you see Eb and F#, this is showing some hicaz from Neva. I usually hear this referred to as showing makam Karcigar. But don't show too much, you must quickly come back to F natural which brings you to...

4. ...the beginning of the 4th line and finally the ending is somewhat like a typical Ussak ending. The karar is the A half note sitting above where "(SAZ)" is written.

and voila, there's Beyati !

All of the sarkis show the seyir, now that you know the above info, check out some other sarkis.

adam

Tom Moran - 4-1-2009 at 06:38 AM

Thanks for your replies!
OK, my first question...

for each makam you need to know:
3- what is the most important playing region -low-mid-or high
4- what is more important -tonic, dominant, or octave
5- what happens to the "unstable" notes as you change direction...
6- which notes do you develop first, 2nd, 3rd etc etc

Is there an on-line source for this type of information?

Edward Powell - 4-1-2009 at 07:08 AM

:rolleyes:

it is interesting, that we all (MYSELF INCLUDED, even back 20 years ago when I first started to study ragas) want immediately to have a big list which will give us all of this information detailing a new theory system we have encounters.

having such a list gives us the feeling like we know it - and have the situation under control. However, I would suggest resisting the temptation to worry about immediately getting this big list. Finally it will not have too much value aside from a very good reference.

of course, it IS (!) valuable and very important to accummulate theoretical reference material - this will help you learn... but it is really enough just to take ONE makam and really learn it. Focus on that, then move on to the next.

Learn 5 makams fully:
-Bayati
-Huseini
-Rast
-Segah
-Hicaz

...then after that it all flows easily and makes total sense.

[now I better get busy and practice what I am preaching!!! :)) ]

...Adam has suggested a great way to learn Bayati.

ps- maybe one solution could be to make a separate thread for each makam and we could all contribute bits of information which would finally identify the seyir and other characteristics of each makam?

Tom Moran - 4-1-2009 at 07:31 AM

Here's my problem: In learning the maqams, I could be learning them incorrectly if I don't know what the seyir is. Is it a certain sequence of notes? Sorry if I'm getting things out of order, but I'm learning in a vacuum.

Edward Powell - 4-1-2009 at 08:00 AM

Seyir: I don't know the origins of this concept. I think that the music existed first, and then they made the theory, and then of course the theory influenced the music.

Seyir is not a sequence of notes, but rather, a sequence of focal centers. for example - Turkish Bayati:

1. you enter on NEVA, and you play primarily in the upper tetrachord which is buselik pentachord from NEVA. Finish your first paragraph on NEVA.
2. next, stay in the bus.pentachord, and shift your focus to ACEM note.
3. next, focus on the octave and play mostly in ussak (bayati) tetrachord from the octave.
4. finally - descend down thru buselik and then down to the lower ussak (bayati) tetrachord and final stop on the tonic.

This is a basic form of Bayati.

eliot - 4-1-2009 at 08:40 AM

No time for a full answer, but I respectfully disagree with Edward that seyir is "not a sequence of notes," at least as a general principle. In some makams the seyir could be thought of as a sequence of focal centers. For other makams, there is a very specific sequence of pitch collections that must happen in order - meaning, you play around with 5 specific pitches, then with play around with another 5 pitches. Makams Gülizar and Dugah are examples of this.

However, seyir is also used to talk about the melodic contour of specific pieces of music. Okan Murat Öztürk's book on zeybek repertoire is an excellent example with wonderful, barebones transcriptions of the seyir of local repertoires, alongside complex fully ornamented transcriptions.

Seyir is huge - but it is huge and approachable. It's basically the science of how to make melodies that make sense.

katakofka - 4-1-2009 at 09:15 AM

Hi Tom
In a simple way the seyir is the melodic progression in makaams. As every makam has its tonic giving the makam its identity, the melodic progression should turn around the tonic and come back to it. In turkish music they have certain rules to which I am not familiar.
Take the bayati from the D degree: the scale, D, E 1/4, F, G, A, B1/2, C, D. When you play D, E 1/4, F, G, F, E 1/4 and D you generate the bayati makaam, the essence of it.
When playing, C, D, E 1/4, F, G, F, E1/4, D, C you are essentially playing the Rast Makam on C since the tonic is C in here and not D. Note that the Bayati on D and Rast on C have similar scale but the tonic is giving the signature of the makam.
Listening to recordings of bayati on D and Rast on C would be a good help to differentiate between both as each one generate its own mood.
Hope this is helpful
Best
Souheil

Tom Moran - 4-1-2009 at 09:29 AM

Thanks again. This is one of those "everything you know is wrong" moments. I wish I had known this for the last couple of months. Again, I wish there was an on-line source for this information. Apparently what I thought was making progress has been for naught.

katakofka - 4-1-2009 at 09:43 AM

Some links talking about seyir

http://www.tmdk.itu.edu.tr/c.pdf
http://www.turkishmusicportal.org/page.php?id=47&lang2=en
http://www.oud.eclipse.co.uk/makamlar.html

Tom Moran - 4-1-2009 at 09:44 AM

Souheil, thanks. If one would stick to the notes of a given maqam, and keep the melody revolving around the tonic, the seyir would be correct?

katakofka - 4-1-2009 at 09:49 AM

I guess...As I mentioned the concept of seyir is not defined in Arabic music. What is defined are the makams and you are free to generate your own seyir, your own melodic progression. Thinking of Jazz music do we study the melodic progression? I guess no.

katakofka - 4-1-2009 at 10:21 AM

Just as examples
Here is Farid el atrash playing a taksim on bayati on D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_WrixwcD9M&feature=related
(Farid did not stick on bayati in that taksim but at the end he finished on bayati D).

Note the melodic progression as compared to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90IM6mu8Two

Both are playing taksim on bayaati but each one has his own melodic progression. Notice the come back to D in both taksims after each melodic progression.

Edward Powell - 4-1-2009 at 11:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by eliot
No time for a full answer, but I respectfully disagree with Edward that seyir is "not a sequence of notes," at least as a general principle. In some makams the seyir could be thought of as a sequence of focal centers. For other makams, there is a very specific sequence of pitch collections that must happen in order - meaning, you play around with 5 specific pitches, then with play around with another 5 pitches. Makams Gülizar and Dugah are examples of this.



Yes, I agree exactly! The confusion comes because I thought he meant a SEQUENCE OF <B>INDIVIDUAL</B> NOTES. But yes, if you think as Elliot describes as playing around 5 notes or so, then another 5 notes etc... this is what I meant as a "focal center". One pentachord at a time - but also knowing which individual note at that moment should have the strongest place.

Edward Powell - 4-1-2009 at 11:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tom Moran
Souheil, thanks. If one would stick to the notes of a given maqam, and keep the melody revolving around the tonic, the seyir would be correct?


first you need to decide if you want to play turkish or arab makam. At one time they were much more similar - when the ottomans had a very strong grip on things... but now the two have become separate schools.

arabs seems to more of less have lost the complex seyir concept, but if you want to play turkish makam - seyir is essential.

Basically however thinking in terms of following makam notes and revolving around the tonic. This is not seyir.

What the turkish system says is that each makam has as the most important note either the tonic, the dominant, or the octave.

Take for example the difference between USSAK and BAYATI. These two makams are very similar in notes and scale - but the main difference is that the most important note in USSAK is the tonic - so you play a lot around the tonic and the lower notes.

But in Bayati, the dominant is the most important note, so in turkish bayati, YOU DO NOT PLAY VERY MUCH AT ALL AROUND THE TONIC. Instead the whole melody revolves around the dominant, which is the 4th degree (neva). Only finally when you conclude you will return to the tonic.

Another two similar makams are huseini and muhayyer. Huseini's most important note is the DOMINANT (the fifth degree), and Muhayyer's most important note is the OCTAVE! But both these makams have very similar notes and both finally conclude finishing on the tonic.

PS - finally i will just add something that is my opinion. and that is that you don't need to learn the complex seyir to play arab style, but if you learn the turkish seyir, then go ahead and play in arab style - i think that you will catch a better makam feeling this way. Just my opinion.

Tom Moran - 4-1-2009 at 12:35 PM

Thanks again for all the information. My focus HAS been on the Arabic style. OK, I'm not as bad off as I thought!

Edward Powell - 4-1-2009 at 01:11 PM

It seems with Arab style they are not bothing at all with seyir. At the Arab Oud House, I heard that they don't even teach maqam hardly.

You are probably best off trying to copy taksims and stuff, and get the thing by feeling.

--but I will be honest with you that before I began to get in touch with the turkish theory system, I was just totally absolutely lost trying to learn arab oud. I didn't grow up in that culture so I don't have it in my bones. I need intellectual theory. Learning the turkish system has helped my arab playing ENORMOUSLY! The point is that 100 years ago the two systems were one, more of less. But afterwards, they went their own separate ways.

Tom Moran - 4-1-2009 at 01:21 PM

My ipods jammed with Arabic music, trying to soak in as much as I can while at work and in the shop, hoping it will rub off when I sit down to play. I've been fairly pleased at how things have been going, but this seyir thing threw me for a loop.

katakofka - 4-1-2009 at 02:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tom Moran
I've been fairly pleased at how things have been going, but this seyir thing threw me for a loop.


Not only you, it took me a while to get it.
In arabic music you see many modulation (changes in makams) in the melodic progression as seen the link posted above for Farid's video.

Other examples from an instrument similar to the banjo, the buzuk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNF7QNHSi4c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajsiQUVvO7M
hope the annotation are helpful

Edward Powell - 4-1-2009 at 10:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tom Moran
My ipods jammed with Arabic music, trying to soak in as much as I can while at work and in the shop, hoping it will rub off when I sit down to play. I've been fairly pleased at how things have been going, but this seyir thing threw me for a loop.


Are you familiar with the "koma system" and how notes shift when the melody changes direction?

This happens much more in Turkish playing but it DOES still happen in Arabic, however nobody really mentions this.

katakofka - 4-2-2009 at 07:07 AM

Can anyone point out the difference between ussak and bayaati please?
As described the difference is one is ascendant the other is in both directions but I am unable to see the difference.
http://www.oud.eclipse.co.uk/ussak.html
http://www.oud.eclipse.co.uk/bayatiturkish.html

What do you classify this song, bayaati or ussak?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9EfJwpaJP4

Any concrete audio examples would be of great help
thanks

Edward Powell - 4-2-2009 at 08:04 AM

USSAK and BAYATI have the same notes, basically.
-ussak tetrachord from dugah
-buselik pentachord from neva
-the dominant is the same in both makams (neva)

The main difference, is that in USSAK the TONIC is the most important note - but in BAYATI the DOMINANT is the most important note.

Makams which have the tonic as the most important note are ASCENDING MAKAMS.
Makams which have the dominant as the most important note are ASCENDING/DESCENDING MAKAMS.
Makams which have the octave as the most important note are DESCENDING MAKAMS.

So one BIG difference is that USSAK enters with the TONIC - and then you MUST PLAY NOTES BELOW THE TONIC [ RAST PENTACHORD ON YEGAH -low sol- to be exact].
BAYATI, on the other hand enters with the DOMINANT (sol), and you more or less treat the dominant like a tonic - and in this way of looking at it you treat it just like USSAK except NEVA is like the tonic - what I mean is that you play BELOW the dominant making a RAST PENTACHORD FROM Do (rast note). But in BAYATI you will never play any notes lower than RAST NOTE (Do).

There are more differences, but I would say that this is the main difference.

From where I left off - you continue to develop the makam, and with both you finish finally on the tonic.

You see, in USSAK mostly you are hanging around the TONIC below and above it.
In BAYATI mostly you are hanging around the DOMINANT below and above it. --but never play below the tonic's leading tone (Do).

Edward Powell - 4-2-2009 at 08:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by katakofka

What do you classify this song, bayaati or ussak?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9EfJwpaJP4



To me this sounds more like USSAK than BAYATI because it seems to focus around the tonic rather than the dominant... however, true makams are found only in TURK SENAT MUZIKISI (Art Music), and this piece is a folk song. The baglama is a give-away. Turkish folk music has a slightly different system - very similar to makam, but different. There is another name for these, and the "equivalent" of ussak, hicaz, bayati, rast etc have different names.

Probably Adam or Eliot can elaborate on this.

Tom Moran - 4-2-2009 at 08:15 AM

Souheil, the annotations are very helpful.
Edward, yes, at least I'm aware of the "koma" system. Implementation is on the back burner for now.;)

charlie oud - 4-2-2009 at 10:28 AM

Every piece of music has a path (seyir). Its the quality of this path that counts not its ruling. The fact that so many questions are asked about seyir indicates that "seyir" itself is not to be restricted or trapped in tradition. It longs to be a free spirit. So many seem so concerned about what is or is not a bayati or any other maqam. Its a piece of music. C

Edward Powell - 4-2-2009 at 11:31 AM

I just thought of a much more simple and basic way to describe the fundamental difference btw bayati and ussak...

1- take the same scale and use "re" as the tonic (hold low "re" as a bass note drone), stay mostly around low notes and you have ussak
2- take the same scale, exactly the same notes, but pretend that "sol" is the tonic... holding low sol as a bass note a lot - - - but finally in the end conclude finishing on "re". There you have bayati.

bayati FEELS like sol is the tonic, but actually re is the first note of the scale.

but arabs don't do it like this anymore... but still a little hint of it is there, and i think it is really good to be aware of this distinction. It gives you the tools to really give a very strong pure bayati flavour if you so choose. ---otherwise you are just noodling in that "bayati scale", and you need a really strong imagination to keep it interesting.

the funny thing about the "difficult" ragas, is that finally it is much much easier with them to make sweet music than with an easy raga. An easy ragas is basically a free scale that anyone can learn in 5 minutes... but then you need a great imagination to keep it interesting. But with a difficult phrase oriented raga, it is heard to learn, but finally, as long as you follow the grammer correctly you are automatically playing sweet melodies. So finally the really difficult ragas are the free scale ones like MAL KAUNS, CHARU KESI, WACHASPATI... etc

adamgood - 4-2-2009 at 12:40 PM

Edward by the way it's getting a little confusing now that you are referring to the solfege names within the makams, any Turkish musician will consider the Karar or tonic of Ussak to be LA.

Dugah = LA
Rast = SOL
Neva = RE

etc...it's tied to how the notation is read. I suppose it's the Arabic method you're calling up, Rast = DO, etc..

katakofka - 4-2-2009 at 01:22 PM

Thanks Ed this was of great help. To conclude what we essentially call bayati in arabic music is USSAK in Turkish and when we play around the Dominant we both talking about bayati in this case. Correct?

adamgood - 4-2-2009 at 10:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by katakofka
Thanks Ed this was of great help. To conclude what we essentially call bayati in arabic music is USSAK in Turkish and when we play around the Dominant we both talking about bayati in this case. Correct?


I think though that in Arabic music there exists a maqam Ushaq (sorry I don't know the spelling) so actually, how do Arabic musicians distinguish between Bayati and Ushaq?

Reda Aouad - 4-2-2009 at 11:19 PM

Very interesting discussion.
Quote:
I think though that in Arabic music there exists a maqam Ushaq (sorry I don't know the spelling) so actually, how do Arabic musicians distinguish between Bayati and Ushaq?


I will talk from a purely Arabic perspective. My reference is my book "Oriental-Arabic Theories نظريات شرق-عربية" by the Lebanese professor Walid Ghelmyye.

Ushaq is closer to Nahawand than it is to Bayati from a seyr and mood points of view.

Ushaq is: Nahawand tetrachord on Dugah + Bayati Tetrachord on Husseini

Dugah, Busalik (and not Segah), Jiharkah (played slightly lower), Nawa, Husseini, Awj, Kerdan, Muhayyar

RE MI FA SOL LA SI half-flat DO RE

Ushaq revolves more around the lower tetrachord. You can think of it as derived from Nahawand rather than Bayati. Listen to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYWLY61AZgA.

Edward Powell - 4-2-2009 at 11:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by adamgood
Edward by the way it's getting a little confusing now that you are referring to the solfege names within the makams, any Turkish musician will consider the Karar or tonic of Ussak to be LA.

Dugah = LA
Rast = SOL
Neva = RE

etc...it's tied to how the notation is read. I suppose it's the Arabic method you're calling up, Rast = DO, etc..


:)

yeah, I know... I have got the impression that most of the people new to all of this are playing arab oud, and might have no idea about the note names. (usually I try to qualify by saying "Do in Arab tuning"... but I've been getting lazy)

...however, as much as I prefer Turkish theory over Arab, I must admit that I do prefer the Arab notation much much more. Starting Rast from SOL, in the notation, seems strange to me.

Edward Powell - 4-3-2009 at 12:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by adamgood
Quote:
Originally posted by katakofka
Thanks Ed this was of great help. To conclude what we essentially call bayati in arabic music is USSAK in Turkish and when we play around the Dominant we both talking about bayati in this case. Correct?


I think though that in Arabic music there exists a maqam Ushaq (sorry I don't know the spelling) so actually, how do Arabic musicians distinguish between Bayati and Ushaq?


Actually I would say that Arabs are still playing Bayati, but starting from the tonic, and more or less dropping this idea that the dominant in more important than the tonic. Sure, this ends up "looking" like USSAK... but I wouldn't go as far as to say that Arabs are playing USSAK as Bayati. But now perhaps we are going into too much detail.

Mohammed Antar prefers to call this Arab Bayati as Maqam Dugah. He says that there is an old maqam dugah which is basically a bayati from the tonic... but also as we know, there is a modern Turkish new makam dugah which is something totally different again (Adam can you tell us about this?).

I think that after the Ottomans left, Arabs dropped a lot of the maqam "theory", and began to think of maqams more in terms of 'scales'. The result has been a more 'free' kind of playing - but a definite "blurring" of the particular distinctions existing between very similar makams.

I have the impression, maybe incorrect, that many or most Arab musicians are not particularly interested in, or bothered about theory. "Bayati is Bayati" and "everyone know what that means", and then off you go and play what you want - as long as it somehow relates to the "bayati scale".

I think this is fine as long as you grew up in that culture and have that music in your ears all your life...... but as a fresh adult newcomer from another culture, this approach is not helpful at all. The Turkish "rules", I have found very very helpful in trying to make sense out of all of it.

katakofka - 4-3-2009 at 05:30 AM

What would be the name of those makaam in turkhish music?

A, B1/4, C. D, E, F 1/2#, G, A
or
G, A 1/4, B 1/2, C, D, E1/4, F, G

Or at least the first 4 notes forward and backward played?

thanks

katakofka - 4-3-2009 at 05:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Reda Aouad
I will talk from a purely Arabic perspective. My reference is my book "Oriental-Arabic Theories نظريات شرق-عربية" by the Lebanese professor Walid Ghelmyye.
.


Reda: does Walid mention the seyir concept in his book? if yes what does he call it in arabic?

Thanks

Reda Aouad - 4-3-2009 at 06:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by katakofka
Quote:
Originally posted by Reda Aouad
I will talk from a purely Arabic perspective. My reference is my book "Oriental-Arabic Theories نظريات شرق-عربية" by the Lebanese professor Walid Ghelmyye.
.


Reda: does Walid mention the seyir concept in his book? if yes what does he call it in arabic?

Thanks


He doesn't directly mention it.. nor he defines the seyr of each maqam. But he defines the maqam as being a group of musical notes, arranged in a certain order, bound to fixed rules and which progress in a special systematic way.

He also defines maqam families, which are the basic maqams from which others are derived. The basic maqam families according to him are 9 - only those of Arabic origin and not of any other origin, and the other maqams are either derived from or similar to them. So one can count the number of maqams he included in his book.

katakofka - 4-3-2009 at 07:19 AM

thanks Reda

eliot - 4-3-2009 at 07:57 AM

The main distinguishing feature of Beyati, as I learned it, is something that hasn't been mentioned yet: a final descent from Acem to Dugah (the 6th note to the karar). If we're thinking in Arab tuning, and have the notes
D E1/2 F G A Bb
that means that a prominent descent from Bb to D is a mandatory aspect of makam Beyati. You find this in most of the best known Beyati Saz Semai-s if you look at the seyir of the teslim sections. You find it in Arab repertoire in pieces like "Ya Salat iz-Zayn." You find it in some of Farid's qaflah-s.

If you simply play around with the notes above G and then move down to the lower tetrachord, that's more like makam Neva than Beyati. And don't even get me started about makam Tahir... ;)

adamgood - 4-3-2009 at 11:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by eliot
The main distinguishing feature of Beyati, as I learned it, is something that hasn't been mentioned yet: a final descent from Acem to Dugah (the 6th note to the karar).


See this is the kind of thing that I'll never get on my own without someone telling me. Thanks Eliot!!!

Now that I look at the compositions I see that. Actually many of the final karars I'm seeing are from FA or MI to LA.

Eliot can you tell us anything else?

Edward Powell - 4-4-2009 at 04:02 AM

Interesting... and this is exactly HOW to learn makams. KEEP STRUGGLING TO UNDERSTAND, AND ASK THOSE WHO KNOW! This is a "cumulative process" and there is a MAKAM OCEAN out there!

I remember talking to Yurdal about USSAK-BAYATI differences, and he said that in Bayati, even though neva is the most important note, the final karar should be (ARAB TUNING) RE - LA - SOL - FA - MI - RE - RE... just as you find in the famous Bayati pesrev teslim karar. (is this a shortened version of the SI to RE karar?)

Something Mohammed Antar told me about Bayati is that the SEGAH note should never shift position - whereas in USSAK it slides around a lot. (???)

Eliot, please tell us about NEVA and TAHIR.... I have been very fascinated by these mysterious makams. All so seemingly similar to ussak-bayati-etc.

Also, Adam, can you give us the seyir of GULIZAR. I am so curious about this one too - - - I have been gives several conflicting information about all of these less common common makams.

[then of course there is Makam Asiran, which Necati told me is something like USSAK from Yegah!?)

Reda Aouad - 4-4-2009 at 05:50 AM

Are you talking about the Arabic Ushaq? Does that mean that what I said before is wrong and that the Arabic Ushaq is not what I described? Because I'm starting to have doubts in my references.. that would be really disappointing :shrug:

adamgood - 4-4-2009 at 11:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Edward Powell

Something Mohammed Antar told me about Bayati is that the SEGAH note should never shift position - whereas in USSAK it slides around a lot. (???)

Eliot, please tell us about NEVA and TAHIR.... I have been very fascinated by these mysterious makams. All so seemingly similar to ussak-bayati-etc.

Also, Adam, can you give us the seyir of GULIZAR. I am so curious about this one too - - - I have been gives several conflicting information about all of these less common common makams.

[then of course there is Makam Asiran, which Necati told me is something like USSAK from Yegah!?)


1. Yes for Ussak, the segah pitch can slide around all over the place in very typical ways, it's very rubbery. In general this pitch is lower than Segah but is simply notated as Segah for simplicity. Also glissando is very important for segah in ussak.

For Beyati I would say it moves less but is not stationary. Really no pitch is stationary, everything can be moving and come alive in their own ways.

2. Eliot I would also love to hear about Tahir. I see it as a close sibling to Muhayyer except the dominant for Tahir is Neva rather than Huseyni. What are the other characteristics?

3. Gulizar, I don't know from my head so I'll check a piece, be right back...

Hm tricky, ok I only have a few pieces and here's what I notice, looks like a descending makam beginning on Muhayyer but not acting like muhayyer (so maybe more related to Tahir?). I assume the dominant is Neva? So and Ussak tetrachord plus Rast Pentachord (like Neva makam). It uses some pretty obvious Karcigar tricks and melodies. With karar on Dugah. My oversimplified analysis :)

4. I never heard of a makam Asiran, you're not thinking Huseyni Asiran? Or any of the other "XX" Asiran makams?