Michelle Webb - 5-26-2009 at 03:16 AM
Hi everyone.
I'm starting to get use to using a risha. The problem I'm experiencing is the risha is to light just like if I were trying to play with a thin to
light guitar pick.
( Which is a real challenge for me...I play with stone picks...very hard)
I've noticed that there are cow horn risha's .....are those any harder then what seems to be the standard light to medium risha ?
Also....are there Oud players out there that are using guitar picks instead ?
Being a guitar player first, this just makes sense to me, the plastic risha's seem to just be coping a plastic guitar pick anyway...only difference is
the shape.
What do you think ?
Thanks,
M
Masel - 5-26-2009 at 03:45 AM
I also play guitar and I'd say don't use a guitar pick, the different shape makes for different technique and different sound. To say that a risha is
just a copy of a guitar pick and using that instead is I think an insult to your instrument, the same way you wouldn't think of playing a guitar with
a risha - which of course came first and not the other way around.
Middle-eastern music has a totally different sound and feeling than western music, so if you want to learn to play it properly you need to adjust your
technique to what's been working for hundreds (maybe thousands) of years, not reinvent the wheel.
Luttgutt - 5-26-2009 at 07:42 AM
Hi Michelle!
Lots of good new idea can come to life when one is trying to "reinvent the wheel". So I see no harm in that!
But having said that, I can see no harm either in learning something new, new pick tecnique, that is! My guess is that it will only improve your
guitar pick technique!
My advise is to try pyramid picks (Jameel Khalaf has them).
And then eventually try softer ones.
Good luck
MatthewW - 5-26-2009 at 09:47 AM
hi Michelle- Try Jameel, he's a great resource for all things oud and very helpful ( if you catch him in the right mood
)
http://www.khalafoud.com/accessories.htm
He also carries 'Mizrite' blanks, where you can shape your own rishas to the thickness you like, and since you have two ends you can have two
different rishas in one so to speak. I've been using the Mizrite blanks and they are very good. I shape them to a sort of Pyramid risha shape and with
a thickness I like at each end.
I think using a risha is much more preferable than using a guitar pick, you'll see why after you get used to using the risha....they are both designed
for their own particular instrument and techniques, though there are no rules! 
regards, MW
Brian Prunka - 5-26-2009 at 01:14 PM
Hi Michelle, I also play guitar and use extremely hard picks (Dunlop 208) for that. But oud is a totally different creature, and the picking
technique is important and requires a traditional risha. I have never found someone who is able to produce as good a sound with a guitar pick on
oud.
Learning traditional oud picking has definitely refined my guitar picking technique as well.
francis - 5-26-2009 at 04:15 PM
Hi Michelle.
I entirely agree with Brian about the necessity to play the oud with a risha, but I know a man ( I discovered oud music at his side ) who plays with a
guitar pick.....and his playing is fine to my opinion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHmtkqD9Rak
You can have a look to others video clips to hear other moods in his music.....
On stage, Titi plays guitar, oud and bouzouk , but always in a very personal way.
I saw and heard him playing Munir bashir's tunes as well.
But I think he is an exception....
francis - 5-26-2009 at 04:30 PM
Another one with the bouzouk, around Rajasthani dance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCTHfYU-h9Y&feature=channel
Knargh - 7-9-2009 at 01:09 AM
Hi There,
I don't really agree here. I am originally a guitar player as well and i have have been playing ud for many years now and i have always kept using
guitar picks. I found it much easier to adapt the picking style of a risha to a guitar pick than actually teaching myself to play with a risha wich
feels very ackward for me. I know it is not traditional, but hey neither is the single low string on the ud, is it? Or using a plastic risha for that
matters. It really depends on what you're after. I just want to have fun playing my ud and make it sound as good as I can using a guitar pick (wich I
already knew how to do)instead of starting all over again and having to go through all the trouble of learning it the traditional way. Call it lazy
if you want, for me it's just efficient...
Benjamin - 7-9-2009 at 05:09 AM
Dear Knargh,
You could as well play the violin with a guitar pick, and it may sound good even, and you will feel at home and confortable, but you won't be able to
exploit the ability of the instrument. The same is for the oud, you can't exploit and play the oud as it has been made, and it will sound very
different. But if you like it and if you feel confortable, that's the most important. But still you are loosing a great part of the beauty this
instrument can provide you.
Guitar pick technique, and risha techniques, are really really different, so one who really wanna learn oud has to learn to play oud on the oud, not
guitar on the oud.
picks verse mizrab/risha
Renato - 7-19-2009 at 07:31 AM
I personally like the risha. I have scolded a couple of my friends who use a pick as I think it sounds a bit "clicky", BUT there is a way to hold it
and hit the string without being so noise. Arabic style is usually clicky with lots of tremelo. BUT these guys are fantastic players. One is in the
Iranian/Kurdish ensemble in Seattle, "Kamand", and the other deviant is here in Santiago, "Ensemble Tarab". Bad boys!!!
There are many Turkish players who use hard, stiff picks, like Munir Beken. He has a customized mizrab made from a small hair comb, (of course,
without the teeth, just the body. I believe "Hank", who is in this forum fabricates them.
Also, at times, I get sick of using the risha and use one of my stiffer saz picks. It actually has the benefit of the roundness of a guitar pick, with
more flexibility. you can "roll" between and over the notes more easily. Maybe it sounds good because I play saz!
anyhow,
to each his/her own.
Abrazos de Chile!
ren
siro - 7-19-2009 at 08:52 AM
hi michelle
you can use any type of pick ,risha ,mizrab.you must firs findout
what sound you like and then the important think is becareful not to harm strings and specialy soundboard
twogoodears - 8-5-2009 at 11:17 PM
Hi all... read the interesting talks about pro/con risha... I use a Pyramid's risha and... my fingers.
I'm a fingerstylist on the guitar since my boyhood and, when I lightly fingerpicks my oud, tremolo, trilli, etc. I know I'm playing wrong, but the
sound is very nice, not clicky, full-bodied and expressive.
For percussive, traditional playing the risha is unique.... I tried with and extra light Dunlop white pick, but I disliked the results... BUT I'm
sort-of "fond of" my fingers tone, also on oud.
Seriously... anyone of the great masters, past and present, used their bare fingers to play oud? Salman Shukur, maybe?
Thanks for any opinion on the matter.
Stefano
fernandraynaud - 8-6-2009 at 01:15 AM
I propose the traditional feather. I'm just discovering the oud, so I'm a clean slate, and all methods seem viable. If you want to learn traditional
Arabic music, only the reesha will likely work. If you have no such ambition, why not really try them all out, rather than decide based on what other
people are doing?
The 0.030" black plastic Reesha seems to be made of Celcon, the same material many people use in 0.020" for harpsichord plectra, because, like white
Delrin, Celcon is very close in behavior to a feather quill. The tiny harpsichord plectrum is "voiced" with a scalpel to end in a thin and very
flexible tip. It's funny, it was one of the pioneers of traditionally designed harpsichords who said (roughly) that in the 1950s harpsichordists took
to Delrin, because it successfully imitated feather quills, but then they discovered that bird quill imitates feather quills even better. This is a
huge and widely debated topic, but the most perfectionist harpsichordists ARE using feather, because it feels and sounds better. There is a definite
preference for the feathers of large meat-eating birds, like vultures, ravens and crows, because of the size and the protein structure of their
feathers, so eagle feather is not a romantic fantasy. Personally I'm looking forward to trying feather on my oud.
The flexible reesha almost imposes a certain technique, and I suspect that bird quill has an entirely different feel from plastic, and will suggest
new techniques. Does anyone (still) know how to traditionally shape a feather reesha?
I'm finding that, for me, playing with fingers/fingernails is a worthwhile approach, though with a very different sound and not as loud. Hard/thick
plastic picks don't appeal to me, but to each his own.
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twogoodears - 8-6-2009 at 02:10 AM
Had an interesting chat with luthier Dimitris Rapakosious in his Athens workshop... he lent to me a feather reesha, explaining to me the way it was
done, a very, old-timey, time-consuming method: cutting along the length, water softening for a couple days, then making it flat when still wet and
folding a couple of times and, finally, placing under some weight for a proper amount of time, than shaping edges and final length as a reesha.
Yes, I remember the sound being definitely much more expressive and various than plastic... BUT the fingers & nails...
I'll maybe try with some crow feather in the future, anyway...
Edward Powell - 8-6-2009 at 09:13 PM
Hi Michelle
Great to see you hear! ...and I am very happy that you have taken up the oud. It is always my first advice to any fretless guitarist, to seriously
check out the oud and the sarod.
You have started quick a useful discussion here! ...this is something particularly meaningful for me since I am continuously trying to combine the
SAROD and the OUD in one instrument like a weird fretless guitar. But the idea is to be able to jump quickly from the sarod neck to the oud neck, and
if I were to use a risha, and also a traditional sarod pick (which is made from COCONUT SHELL!) then it would not work.
Therefore I have found a middle ground in a medium soft guitar pick. Luckily it is possible to get a pretty good sound from an oud with a guitar pick
(although of course it will never be quite as good - but still it can be an acceptable compromise).
I find that of course the sarod needs a very very hard pick, but if I use the medium pick and do the stroking very far back right near the bridge,
then the tone is good - like with a hard pick.
So I am busy trying to re-invent the wheel (and sometime I wish I never started :-D) ...but great instruments like the oud did not just appear out of
nowhere. Someone had to stretch out and invent it.
SamirCanada - 8-7-2009 at 12:46 AM
In my opinion I agree 100% with Masel.
If you are interested in learning to play oud then you should first seek to understand the instrument. The various tones produced when playing oud can
only be accomplished by using a risha with the proper technique. In my opinion, many people are misguided about the oud and believe it to be a
rudimentary medieval instrument which they can approach in a loose manner and disregard thousands of years of progress and knowledge. The proper risha
technique is a well established technique and is a very complex & advanced technique which is the only way to extract all of the oud's range of
tones. You cannot use a pick that is only squeezed between your finger tips to play the oud because the driving force when playing the oud properly
comes from the wrist! When you pick on a oud the trajectory of the risha is like an oval with the risha pointing somewhat up and the risha striking
the strings in forward motion towards the face. This is also impossible to properly do with a guitar pick and this is the key to produce the true
oud's tone.
If you are using a guitar pick on the oud you are missing out on the oud's full range of tones because you will not be able to extract them from the
instrument. Do yourself a favor and learn to use the right technique from the beginning and you will not regret it. With the risha you can play soft,
you can play hard without compromising the oud's tonal characteristics.
btw, I am not one that is against progress and experimentation. however, I believe one should reach a certain level of playing and understanding of
the oud before doing so. Its like driving a manual transmission... you can get the car moving from the 3rd gear... but it aint very pretty.
Edward Powell - 8-7-2009 at 07:16 AM
another reason why risha works on oud and not on guitar is that an oud's soundboard is much lighter than a guitar's, and therefore is much more
resonant and sensative. For this reason the risha - which is generally much lighter than a guitar pick, can still DRIVE the soundboard.
it took me ages to figure this out. I used to think the best sound is from the heaviest picks and heavierst strings possible with pretty high action!
---all the opposites are true with oud. Light strings, very thin risha, very low action! ---this is the problem when trying to learn an "ethno"
instrument when NOT in that country. But now we have Mike's OUDS so nobody has an excuse anymore.
yes, if you are going to play an oud - learn to do it first with a RISHA!
DaveH - 8-8-2009 at 02:35 AM
Twogoodears, I was interested in your post on making a feather risha. I seem to remember another post on these forums about that, but a search doesn't
seem to turn anything up.
Could you elaborate on the method Dmitris Rapakousious outlined? Or could anyone else familiar with making feather rishas give their take?
Not too many eagles down here in the South of England but I discovered the remains of a Red Kite recently and have salvaged a few sizeable wing
feathers. I'd quite like to give it a try and I really need to find a better risha material.
Cheers
SamirCanada - 8-8-2009 at 05:27 AM
hey dave,
If I recall properly, the process involved submerging the feather in oil for quite some time.
i beleive it was Ronny Anderson who posted it. maybe a search will turn up something.
fernandraynaud - 8-8-2009 at 03:14 PM
If we asked the Chinese shopkeepers in California, they would probably shoot and feather the last living eagle for $10. Better not to ask. We have
some large "chicken vultures" here, but they fly so high ...
It's interesting about oil, because the recommended way to maintain feather quills on the harpischord is to oil them in situ with a little
brush and e.g. olive oil, it prevents breaking from brittleness. The really hard-core harpischord players take out one or two jacks every day (the
support for the plectrum, one out of 50 or 100 in rotation) and rub the plectrum against e.g. the forehead. They say that human skin oil is best!
I would think that flattening the feather would weaken it, unless it is done just right, and I wonder if a simpler method might not work OK. How wide
does a reesha have to be to be good? Does anyone play a narrow reesha?
I play a number of instruments and some of them have great support forums like this one. Now if you think this is unrelated ... A consistent pattern
is the friendly (and sometimes not so friendly) conflict between traditionalists and experimenters. The oud is a beautiful instrument, and it was well
developed in the context of Maqam-based music. But it can be used other ways. The people who argue that it should be used the traditional way should
perhaps explain their reasoning other than by saying it's how it has been, or that it best exploits the tone range of the instrument. How? Why? Maybe
this should be in another thread, but the "traditionalists" of the oud can perhaps share how exactly the traditional oud music best brings out the
qualities of the instrument (and vice-versa?)
I DO agree with harpsichord traditionalists for instance that it does very well with its traditional ornamentation because the relatively short
envelope of the note can be compensated for by filling in with ornaments and by staggering chords, but also the lack of direct dynamic control over
volume is made up for by layering sound, like ornaments, to raise the apparent volume as needed, and conversely playing isolated notes slightly
staccato to lower the "sound mass".
Obviously microtones work well on a fretless neck. But interestingly some harpsichords in the 15-16th century were made with more than 12 keys per
octave, even 24, and it is common now to retune in different ways for specific pieces. Nobody tunes a harpsichord in that miserable Equal Temperament.
ET was not "invented" in the late 18th century, it was just that it stopped being rejected then. I wish I knew more about Maqamat, because it
would be very interesting to tune a harpsichord for specific Maqam -- we are constantly tuning and retuning them anyway . When different notes are needed ascending and descending, one would steal "black
notes" from unused scales. There is nothing sacred about what key goes to what note. This is commonly done to extend the bass on smaller harpsichords,
say D# becomes a low G, or to provide e.g. both a true A# and Bb, instead of one compromise key. Maybe if/when I learn more about Maqamat ...
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DaveH - 8-9-2009 at 01:49 AM
Thanks Samir, I found a few threads. I'll post them on another thread to see if anyone has anything other info.
SamirCanada - 8-9-2009 at 06:21 AM
Fernand,
I see the point you are making. however, the maqam system is just that a musical system... you can play maqam music with a oud and also with a violin
and also with any other instrument that will allow you to modulate in quarter tones. You can also play western harmonic music with the oud and the
violin and essentialy most musical instruments capable of playing notes... the music being played is not the issue here. and musical experimentation
is a great thing! look at jameel bashir playing rock and roll on his oud for example. this was done so tastefully well.
the point is here that to play an instrument one must use the proper technique. I could tell you that the oud sounds the best when it strings are
struck with a finely honed japanese katana sword or even that the hammered dulcimer sounds the best when using actual household hammers!! forgive me
my humour but I just had to.
I have been playing and studying the oud for several years and I can tell you by experience that using a guitar pick is not going to produce the
correct tone of the oud. As Edward said before, the risha is key to properly dirve the soundboard but the reason isnt the weight. The risha is long
enough to come down to your palm right next to your wrist and the driving motion in oud playing comes from the wrist. A guitar pick canot exert any
driving force from the wrist and it cannot be angled correctly to strike both strings silmutanesly. Now you may beleive otherwise because you may
perceive that you are producing a nice sound using a guitar pick... who am I to disagree.
I have a question though... my friend's father has a really nice custom made reproduction of a french harpsichord (clavsin)
do you think its a good idea the next time I am there if I open the top of harpsichord and I play the strings with my risha?
fernandraynaud - 8-9-2009 at 08:59 AM
Hi, Samir,
Good points. Arabic music is entirely separate from the oud as instrument. The two topics get merged here, not a problem, but they ARE separate.
I haven't been playing oud long enough to be sure, but I find so far playing with the fingers brings out other good tones and allows some
things you just can't do with the reesha. I'll form my own opinion little by little, and surely give the reesha the proper attention. No question that
only the reesha brings out the well-known loud sound of the oud, if that's what you like.
But I'm thinking maybe these plastic reeshas are not making the most interesting sound, so I'm looking for feather. My guess is feather reeshas were
thin or quite flexible at the tip, imagine a quill pen. I'm not one of the people using guitar picks.
Thankfully not too many people play "prepared piano" with crucified hamsters and what have you, as it's bad for your posture, and there is just no
comfortable way to do it. Same with playing harspichord with a reesha: It also tends to breaks strings.
Feather reesha
twogoodears - 8-9-2009 at 10:54 PM
Hi Dave and thanks for your feedback... while Dimitris Rapakosious will be in Japan for a couiple of weeks now - at his return I'll sure ask for more
precise description of the eagle reesha I used for half an hour last April in his workshop - I did my best to try feather sound without giving
troubles to any magnificient flying creature... I found by chance a pigeon large feather (don't forget pigeons are among most common birds on the
planet).
I properly handled the softened (by hand, no water or oil), flattened 20 cm long feather reesha-style and tried... well... despite I obtained a (quite
narrow) 10 mm wide reesha, the sound was amazingly good for such a weird attempt!
It's not crow or owl or other large meat-chasing rapacious birds, BUT at least gave to me a glimpse of what a natural-material reesha sounds like... a
very sensitive, nail like, mellower than plastic, sound.
Will revert soon on this fascinating, intriguing matter as soon as Dimitris will be back home.
fernandraynaud - 8-10-2009 at 12:21 AM
I'm imagining that an ideal reesha might include a cm of the plumes on each side to help hold it in the palm. We can't be sure that what they happen
to do with feather now is what they did before. As you discovered, the raw material has certain properties, and doesn't necessarily have to be
marinated in oil. I may be wrong, but I imagine it as something a bit like a pen. I also imagine the tip as being a lot like a nib, but not as
pointed.
Black Delrin and White Celcon are actually pretty good, and if feather has unique properties (other than not "work-hardening") it might be the very
thing that they mention and try to avoid in harpsichords, namely the slight rasping against the strings. This would be related to the fibrous
structure of the keratin, and one of the reasons only meat-eating birds are suitable. In the harpsichord, any such friction (on the return) is deadly,
as it causes the jack to "hang". The strings on a harpsichord are different, smooth metal. In a reesha against "gut" strings, it might be the key to
a VERY different, more "bowed", sound. Nail, horsehair, horn, feather. All related. Maybe rubbing some rosin on a Delrin reesha would simulate
it? Does anyone have some bow rosin handy? I've even thought that a slightly rough reesha edge sound better. Any other ideas?
norumba - 6-23-2016 at 10:21 AM
resurrecting this necro thread to see if there are any new ideas...
there does seem to be a trend these days towards heavier rishas, and with the stiffer construction of floating bridge ouds, im not sure the
concept of the light risha driving a light soundboard is applicable for all types of oud...
im also not sure of samirCanada's assertion that "A guitar pick canot exert any driving force from the wrist and it cannot be angled correctly to
strike both strings silmutanesly." i think its possible if you work on the angle and the kind of pick you use... im still experimenting.
fernandraynaud , check out v picks ghost rim picks, which have a rougher bevel.. maybe something like that is what youre seeking? http://www.v-picks.com/product/dimension-jr-ghost-rim/
i m all about the risha for an acoustic oud, but I bring up the topic because with my doubleneck guitar oud, im looking for compromises that will
work well for both. Its a semi solidbody electric, so issues of driving soundboard thickness arent quite as applicable here.
I ve been experimenting with different approaches,,, i even tried cutting a slot in the top of the guitar pick to thread the risha through, but it
messed with the wrist angle for the guitar as the risha was still in the way.
i use quite a heavy pick on the guitar side, and its taken quite an adaption to use that same pick on the oud portion. Its a very interesting tone
and feel... very naseer shamma -like aggressive attack... but Im not always happy with that for every musical situation, , so im still looking for a
good solution ...