Mike's Oud Forums

medieval european oud tuning

billkilpatrick - 10-20-2009 at 03:33 AM

at present, my oud is tuned C-E-A-D-G-C (bass to treble) - a simple, easy to play tuning - but was wondering about trying something a bit more adventurous.

if there are those present who play early, european music on the oud, may i ask what tuning(s) you use? ... and why?

regards - bill

Sazi - 10-20-2009 at 04:33 AM

Hi Bill, I used to play mediaeval music with my oud - actually, that's what got me into oud in the first place! - I used the same tuning you use, probably for the same reasons, though occasionally would tune the Bass C to D, just for a handy drone in some of the Cantigas de Santa Maria.

Cheers, S

Aymara - 10-20-2009 at 09:39 AM

Hi,

from what I read, the medieval oud (before 15th century) was much smaller and had only 4 course, later 5. So the European lute became the same, but with frets.

But what might have been the original tunings?

The written records for the lute seem to start in Renaissance with a 6 course lute, tuned to GG CC FF AA dd gg, as far as I know.

But what about the oud? Where did the written records regarding tuning start here? Did musical notation maybe start earlier in the arabic world?

patheslip - 10-20-2009 at 10:09 AM

I use CFAdgc. It's a choice between tuning all the way in fourths: BEAdgc, and keeping it simple, or gaining the extra resonance. It's nearer to the lute pattern C,F,Bb,d,g,c which I might try soon. I'll have to to use tab, when I get round to learning it..

As Aymara writes, these extra courses are a newfangled introduction anyway.

As far as musical notation, there've been some recent discoveries from Anglo-Saxon times in Wessex: late 10th century Exeter I vaguely remember. This would be for vocal religious work in the Minster. (can't be bothered to google)

Aymara - 10-20-2009 at 12:03 PM

Hi again,

I found something interesting about the history of notation in German Wiki:

In ancient Egypt a simple notation existed since 3000 B.C. ... wow. The first advanced notation is known from ancient Greece 250 B.C. and was also used in Europe, but got lost with the fall of the Roman Empire. The use of the Arabic notation startet in the 13th century and was based on the Greek tradition ... that means, it didn't get lost like in Europe.

So we might have a chance to find something out about the tuning of the medieval oud, though it won't be easy as it seems.

DaveH - 10-20-2009 at 12:13 PM

I'm not exactly sure either but I think 4 string examples were in fourths. It's only with more strings where you have to worry about sticking that major third in to avoid sharps and flats on open strings and to get back to the 2 octave interval between strings 1 and 6.

The thing I really wanted to suggest though, is to experiment with octave stringing on the lower courses - I think it would give a good medieval sound, even though these courses weren't on medieval lutes.

billkilpatrick - 10-20-2009 at 01:16 PM

some background information:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guido_of_Arezzo

... arezzo is about a hour away - wonderful place.

thanks for the DEAdgc and CFAdgc suggestions - bill

Sazi - 10-20-2009 at 02:05 PM

Check out "old oud, new project" From jdowning, the man is a minefield of information and a very thorough researcher, (thanks for all your great work JD) , the last few posts in particular, re: guages and composition of early oud strings, - from this it should be relatively easy (?!) to work out , by the tension, what the actual pitches of the tuning might have been...maybe by the time you read this the hard work may have even been done for you:)

Aymara - 10-20-2009 at 02:46 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Sazi  
Check out "old oud, new project" From jdowning, ...


Wow, that's a long discussion ... 11 pages ... too much for this time of day, ehm, night ... gotta go to bed ;)

Thanks for the tip!

fernandraynaud - 10-20-2009 at 05:36 PM

For what it's worth, one of the earliest detailed treatises is Al Farabi's. Al Farabi writing in Baghdad in the early 10th century, describes lute/oud tuning issues in detail, and the 4 or 5 strings are invariably tuned in ascending fourths. This is a sort of primordial tuning to lute and oud.

BTW, the belief that Arabic and Western music and culture developed in isolation from each other is complete fantasy. Al Farabi knew Greek thought in detail, the Arabic language was studied by the learned in France in the 10th-13th century, and the songs of the European troubadours were popular in Syria. The mysterious tradition of the sung poetry of southern France was developed in contact with traditions likely more ancient than either Christian or Islamic culture, and common to both.

Sazi - 10-20-2009 at 06:02 PM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  
...the songs of the European troubadours were popular in Syria.



Alsiadi's site http://www.alsiadi.com/ has some old Syrian tunes, and you can hear that some of them have a distinctly european Mediaeval flavor, which I like. (I wish I could remember which ones, but... ) and Scorch doesn't want to work with this 'puter :(

fernandraynaud - 10-20-2009 at 06:58 PM

Guido's was a sort of Music For Dummies, and unfortunately it won over some influential patrons. Guido was the one who said the neumes contained notes that were "fruits of corruption", "laxities brought about by lack of reasoning". That's apparently how microtones got cleaned out of the staff and Western music took a sharp turn in a different direction.

billkilpatrick - 10-20-2009 at 07:48 PM

clean lines; simplicity in many things - architecture, being one - and a general lack of ornamentation seems to have been an early medieval theme in europe. can't remember the exact phrase but at some point, music that didn't fit the mold was considered satanic.

i used straight 4ths (BEAdgc) when i first started playing ... the great habib guerroumi uses it.

fernandraynaud - 10-20-2009 at 08:01 PM

Oh, heavens, I didn't realize this site is there, and more than covers many of these issues, like the influence of Arabic culture:

http://www.muslimheritage.com/

billkilpatrick - 10-21-2009 at 01:37 AM

great site - thank you ... "music science" in the search engine brings up the pertinent articles.

Aymara - 10-21-2009 at 02:54 AM

Hello again,

in Germany currently the medieval era is very popular. From spring to fall you find medieval events all over the country, medieval markets, medieval festivals, where people dress like in that era, drink met, eat historic meals, watch show fights of knights and listen to bands, playing medieval music.

Though my girlfriend and I like to visit such events, I think about this with mixed emotions, because ...
Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  

BTW, the belief that Arabic and Western music and culture developed in isolation from each other is complete fantasy.


Yes, for shure. As I read in Wiki, the early Greek notation e.g. was used in the Arabic world and partly in Europe too.

I think the reason is, that the Roman Empire, though they conquered many countries, the Romans didn't destroy their cultures. Parts of these cultures were even "assimilated" and Latin as official language helped to spread knowledge over the borders.

Don't you think so?

But then with the fall of the Roman Empire and the upcoming Christianization, it seems the opposite happened.

The first is, that Latin vanished, except in Christian church, but most important is ...
Quote: Originally posted by billkilpatrick  
..., music that didn't fit the mold was considered satanic.


The question is, what was not considered satanic? Fact is, that the Christianization destroyed cultures and a wealth of knowledge got lost. Let's have a look at the Celtic culture for example.

So I look at this era a bit like this: Medievil ;)

But back to music ...
Quote: Originally posted by billkilpatrick  
"music science" in the search engine brings up the pertinent articles.


I especially find THIS one very interesting, which seems to be proof for Fernand's above thesis.

But maybe we should concentrate more on the original topic and try to find hints about the medieval oud tuning?

Aymara - 10-21-2009 at 03:51 AM

Hi again,

regarding the tuning, I found the following in JDowning's medieval oud building thread mentioned above:
Quote: Originally posted by jdowning  

The string length of the project oud is 56 cm which determines the maximum pitch of the 'Hadd' string (to avoid frequent breakage). For a simply twisted gut string made from modern gut this would be g' (at A440 pitch) ...


If we compare that to the documented tuning of the 6-courses Renaissance lute which was tuned to GG CC FF AA dd gg, might that lead to the conclusion, that the medieval oud was tuned to FF AA dd gg ???

Aymara - 10-21-2009 at 04:48 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara  
..., that the medieval oud was tuned to FF AA dd gg ???


Assuming, that the early lutes have been inspired by the oud, it's very questionable, that above thesis is correct, because HERE I found a quote from Praetorius (1619), that the tuning of the early 4 courses lutes had the tuning: c f a d'. But even this seems to be questionable.

But it might help to research in both directions, medieval lute and oud.

Aymara - 10-22-2009 at 12:53 AM

Goog morning,

I found something by chance which enchanted me, so I thought I should share it with you, though it's slightly off-topic, because they play lute and not oud:

Rondellus is a medieval band from Estonia, which tried somthing totally new. Listen to their song Magus. This is the old Black Sabbath song The Wizard, but a medieval version with Latin text and it sounds, as if this song would have been originally written in the Middle Ages. I love it and I hope you'll find it inspiring.

billkilpatrick - 10-22-2009 at 02:17 AM

yes - i was never into black sabbath (loathe that gothic rock sound) but theirs is a nice acoustic treatment - thanks.

... thanks also because i'd never made the "est" (east) "estonia" association before.

- bill

fernandraynaud - 10-22-2009 at 02:18 AM

There's one detail in all this talk of tuning: unless you had a wind instrument handy with a known pitch, I would imagine you often didn't KNOW what you were tuning to, other than ascending fourths. It's likely RAST was, shall we say, a tad mobile, depending on available singers, cat gut, etc. And if it felt too tight starting on THIS note with these strings, no problem, here kitty kitty, start over lower.

billkilpatrick - 10-22-2009 at 02:35 AM

this is true ... a movable, musical feast.

i don't known when additional strings, tuned in 3rds, were added to the original 4 but i would assume there were musicians who continued playing in straight 4ths.

Aymara - 10-22-2009 at 02:44 AM

Quote: Originally posted by billkilpatrick  

i don't known when additional strings, tuned in 3rds, were added to the original 4 ...


A further question I have is, when did the oud become fretless?

PS: Regarding Fernand's hint about tuning to a wind instrument ... I think this is important, because the tuning fork was invented not until 1711.

PPS: Black Sabbath is not a Gothic Rock band. They were one of the inventors of Hard Rock in the late Sixties / early Seventies.

billkilpatrick - 10-22-2009 at 03:18 AM


A further question I have is, when did the oud become fretless?

... good question - could there have always been both, depending on musicial preference?

PS: Regarding Fernand's hint about tuning to a wind instrument ... I think this is important, because the tuning fork was invented not until 1711.

... didn't know that - good information.

PPS: Black Sabbath is not a Gothic Rock band. They were one of the inventors of Hard Rock in the late Sixties / early Seventies.[/ rquote]

yes - i know ... i remember listening to them and wondering if the beautiful, exotic, rock and roll chrysalis was becoming just plain noise.

Aymara - 10-22-2009 at 03:48 AM

Quote: Originally posted by billkilpatrick  

... good question - could there have always been both, depending on musicial preference?


I'm not 100% shure, but as far as I know, the first ouds had frets and it became fretless later ... maybe in the Renaissance era?
Quote:
... didn't know that - good information.


I thought, the tuning fork would have been invented earlier, but Fernand's hint let me check it out. I think, it would be interesting to dig deaper into medieval tuning methods.
Quote:
i remember listening to them ...


For comparison HERE you'll find the original song The Wizard which shows cleary, what fascinating job Rondellus really did by porting this song to a medieval version with Latin text. BTW, they made a complete album with such BS cover songs ... maybe someone is interested like me ... check it out HERE. For those interested, HERE's a further song from that album.

Aymara - 10-22-2009 at 06:54 AM

Bill,

it seems, that your tuning C-E-A-D-G-C fit's nearly perfectly into early medieval music, because except the deepest C it's based on the concept of perfect fifths.

And this was used in Pythagorean Tuning in medieval Europe regarding THIS article, especially look HERE.

But this article reveals much more interesting facts ... one quote from the intro:
Quote:
Finally, it may be worth pointing out at the outset that fixed tunings, including Pythagorean intonation, are more strictly applicable to fixed-pitch instruments such as harps or keyboards than to singers or to other kinds of instruments. It seems safe to assume that medieval performers, like their modern counterparts, may have varied their tuning of intervals considerably, although we cannot be sure quite how.


Because both, Europe and the Arabic world, were influenced by ancient Greek music theory, it seems, that all this is even applicable to the medieval oud.

PS: Maybe it's worth a try to downtune the Deep C to B. BTW ... I had a further look in JDowning's medieval oud project and guess what? He came to the conclusion, that his oud should have the tuning B e a d' g' ;)

patheslip - 10-22-2009 at 12:28 PM

I'm not sure that tuning would have been quite so variable, at least in groups of musicians who shared apprenticeships or worked together. In a world uncontaminated by continuous background recordings performers would have become attached to a pitch which would feel 'right', because it was all they had known, and anything else would feel 'wrong', rather than out of tune.

In support of this suggestion here's a anecdote from the distant past: I once spent a couple of weeks walking down the Atlantic coast of France, where I found lots of washed up bamboo. From some of this I made several flutes. When I got back home I found they were in concert pitch. I've no pretence of absolute pitch in ordinary life, but in those surroundings, with no sound but the waves, my feet on the sand and the cry of sea birds in the distance, I was able to access sound memories normally buried in the ubiquitous noise pollution of urban life.

As far as the shedding of microtones in Europe, could this have as much to do with the development of polyphony as with any perceived evil? People all over the world use pentatonic scales when harmonising. One needs to keep it simple where there's more than one musical line.

fernandraynaud - 10-22-2009 at 08:02 PM

Guido was for some reason very influential, and he had a distaste for "complicated stuff".

It seems polyphony only came later, so it wasn't pressing microtonal scales to "get out of the way".

Besides, polyphony and microtones are only incompatible in SOME of the specific contexts that western harmony created. A Major third was not even considered harmonious until after the renaissance. Today an ET Major Third sounds OK, even though it's far from a perfect interval, and you can easily squash a major third up to 25 cents without it sounding bad. I don't think it's accurate that you can't use maqamat with microtonal intervals polyphonically, it's just that it hasn't been done much.



Aymara - 10-23-2009 at 01:10 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  

It seems polyphony only came later, ...


Yes and no, because we have to differentiate between chords and ensembles:

When we talk about the Middle Ages, we talk about ca. 500-1400 A.D. and when we talk about medieval music, we talk about 3 eras, the Gregorian period up to ca. 1100, followed by Ars Antiqua (Minnesang) and at last Ars Nova, which started around 1322.

To make a long story short, I think three things are important:

1. Music theory was only a matter of the clergy and music was considered evil, except when used to praise god. Especially dance music with it's erotic flair was "written by the devil himself" :D This didn't change before Ars Nova as it seems.

2. The first mentioned music theorist who wrote about polyphony (chords) was Hucbald of Saint-Amand around 840. But something like ensembles came later, approximately at the end of the 12th century or even later in Ars Nova. And this is the time when notation for rhythm became more and more important.

3. Instruments were mainly used to accompany singers.

So far for Europe. But especially because of the restrictions by the clergy I would expect, that music developed different (more freely) in other parts of the world.

So the question is, how developed music in the Arabic world in this era?

fernandraynaud - 10-23-2009 at 04:30 PM

I suspect our view of the dominance of the clergy is exaggerated. Accounting documents from cathedral building show that medieval workers were not working very hard, hardly one day out of two, and not much more than 6-7 hours a day, and that the constant church holidays were hardly strict and somber affairs. Music was logically a big part of these constant holidays, but of course people who could barely write their names were not likely to be notating or dissecting music, though they might be playing in ensembles with excellent skills, and using all sorts of harmony and polyphony that develops by trial and error, often error more than anything ;-) Can you imagine a group of people drinking and playing and not stumbling on all sorts of cool rhythms and chords? If the Libre Vermeil was explicitly written to provide chaste music for pilgrimages, then there MUST have been some very non-chaste boogie-woogie music going on!

And whenever the shepherds in the south-west of France took their animals up into the mountains, they would run into shepherds doing the same thing from the other side, from Muslim Spain, and (we know as fact) they would discuss their respective religious beliefs around the camp fire (remember they would have to be spending months together, and they were working on contract, responsible for their bosses' sheep, so nobody was going to waste time fighting), and play their respective songs. This area was a cultural bridge, the French side was no more strictly orthodox than the Spanish side and it is why the south of France was a hot bed of (Cathar) gnostic heresy, along with its troubadour tradition, and why the crusade/inquisition destroyed Albi (in 1230). In the process they killed several hundred thousand people and thoroughly destroyed all the documents that might have told us a lot about the real medieval world. The painstakingly detailed records from the trial of the inhabitants of Montaillou at the start of the 14th century, a village on the French side that had covertly preserved its Cathar beliefs until then, confirm all this.

Cyberquills - 10-23-2009 at 06:36 PM

Hi Bill

I play medieval music on my Iraqi oud tuned: C FF AA dd gg cc ff

Work like a charm. In fact I'll be performing medieval and middle eastern music at the Art gallery of Western Australia this Monday :))

Medieval music on the oud sounds A1

CQ

patheslip - 10-23-2009 at 10:45 PM

Cyberquills : thanks for returning us to our 'moutons', as the french shepherds probably wouldn't have said. (speaking as they did either a farouche Basque or some impenetrable dialect of Provençal)

Your tuning is the one I use too, excepting your extra f course. Good luck on Monday.

Aymara - 10-23-2009 at 11:28 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Cyberquills  

Medieval music on the oud sounds A1


For shure. In another thread Bill gave us THIS example, which demonstrates that nicely.