Mike's Oud Forums

naseer in the old days?

Edward Powell - 11-12-2009 at 06:44 AM

http://www.youtube.com/user/kaisabdullatifparis#p/u/5/FOV2R5INz9Q

I must admit that I haven't found myself extremely impressed with most of the clips of naseer on the web--- especially from a guy with such a reputation...

but seeing this old clip makes me wonder if at one time his playing was 'different'? The playing in this old clip really touches me...

I must admit that briefly meeting shamma last year in cairo it struck me that he is an extremely busy and preoccupied guy - my guess is that he has not had time for practice in a long time... only my guess.

ok, enough talking about others and get back to practicing myself! :D

suz_i_dil - 11-12-2009 at 01:43 PM

I spent an half year in his school in 2005, and saw many of his shows...and indeed, I join you in this opinion his early works were much more " sensitive " ( or with feeling, don't know the exact word ) than the pieces he played in his current shows.
For exemple I'm really touched by his Boston concert album, raheel el qamar, but regarding the concerts I saw of him...well, I remember particullary a concert with a flamenco player wich only brought me the feeling of a competition of technicity and velocity.
But anyway, there's so many works I appreciate of this great composer, and regarding the school, it brought me exactly what I were looking for, intensive musical therapy...:airguitar:
Regards.

Sazi - 11-12-2009 at 02:15 PM

Quote: Originally posted by suz_i_dil  
I spent an half year in his school in 2005, and saw many of his shows...:airguitar:



Sigh!

katakofka - 11-12-2009 at 05:47 PM

If we want to mention the players who had or has influence on oud playing definitely shamma is between them. Shamma gathered both styles, munir and jamiil bashir styles and made from that his own style. During the past years we saw nasser shamma in his best performances now I am questioning what's next for him? what else?

fernandraynaud - 11-12-2009 at 08:49 PM

Glad I'm not the only one who reacts this way to e.g. Shamma's pyrotechnics and amazing chords. There's pressure I guess on all instrumentalists to be faster and flashier than the next guy. Shamma seems like a very cerebral player, even in those early recordings, he's not one to get lost in the flow.

Tawandros is not at all immune to that, either. You'd think that after achieving a certain recognition, a player could relax and focus on real expression instead of dazzling technique. I believe that music is supposed to be played with the heart, not the fingers.

I think there was something simple and emotionally grounded about Farid's avalanche of notes, that isn't there when most players go for speed.

DaveH - 11-13-2009 at 01:39 AM

I agree there is something that works in this clip. I also think the oud has a role to play. As far as floating bridges go, there's something really special and much more intimate and sublte about fawzy munshid's sound. It really goes against the grain of the stereotypical booming sound of the iraqi floaters, as well as his usual Yaroub Fadels, which are a bit too tinny and nasal for my taste.

Edward Powell - 11-13-2009 at 02:33 AM

Quote: Originally posted by katakofka  
During the past years we saw nasser shamma in his best performances now I am questioning what's next for him? what else?


are there some particular clips of OLD concerts you can recommend?

Edward Powell - 11-13-2009 at 02:36 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  
Glad I'm not the only one who reacts this way to e.g. Shamma's pyrotechnics and amazing chords. There's pressure I guess on all instrumentalists to be faster and flashier than the next guy. Shamma seems like a very cerebral player, even in those early recordings, he's not one to get lost in the flow.

Tawandros is not at all immune to that, either. You'd think that after achieving a certain recognition, a player could relax and focus on real expression instead of dazzling technique. I believe that music is supposed to be played with the heart, not the fingers.

I think there was something simple and emotionally grounded about Farid's avalanche of notes, that isn't there when most players go for speed.


funny, i guess i am missing something - - - i haven't seen NS doing anything particularly extreme in terms of flash. [but then again, my sitar teacher was Budhaditya Mukherjee, so after him there is VERY LITTLE which seems technically over-kill]

...funny thing is that I myself have not ended up as a technical-speed player at all.

katakofka - 11-13-2009 at 08:32 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell  
Quote: Originally posted by katakofka  
During the past years we saw nasser shamma in his best performances now I am questioning what's next for him? what else?


are there some particular clips of OLD concerts you can recommend?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHmHAg-RBNY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLsXUWRs014
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8bJ-3iim3w

shayrgob - 11-14-2009 at 07:46 PM

wow he looks odd in that video.

Ronny Andersson - 11-29-2009 at 02:48 AM

Quote: Originally posted by DaveH  
I agree there is something that works in this clip. I also think the oud has a role to play. As far as floating bridges go, there's something really special and much more intimate and sublte about fawzy munshid's sound. It really goes against the grain of the stereotypical booming sound of the iraqi floaters, as well as his usual Yaroub Fadels, which are a bit too tinny and nasal for my taste.


You are absolutety right Dave. The Fawzy oud Nasser played on in the early years had the typical Fawzy sound that is very different all other makers floating bridge ouds.
I had Nasser oud with me for some time for restoration. A luthier replaced the soundboard but Fawzys ouds had some major problem the early years and also the new soundboard collapsed after very short time.
My own Fawzy oud that is 5 years old is working great and never had any major problems.

Edward Powell - 11-29-2009 at 02:50 AM

why did they collapse?? too thin and weak?

DaveH - 11-29-2009 at 02:54 AM

Yes Edward, they're built very lightly indeed, they're extremely responsive - similar weight, and in some ways tone, to a renaissance lute.

Edward Powell - 11-29-2009 at 08:58 AM

you mean, soundboard around 1.5mm or even less?? ...are you talking about the oud Naseer is playing on this clip. To me this oud sounds incredibly good.

but I am not always completely convinced that a weak and vulnerable soundboard necessarily means optimal tone.... I have build some instruments with extremely thin soundboards and bracing, and the instrument lacked clear highs. ---my feeling is that the soundboard needs some areas of thinness, and some areas of stiffness...

-but it all gets quite confusing - and there are so many factors involved. I know Faruk used very sturdy bracing on his ouds - but extremely thin soundboards (1.65mm).

it seems to me that the soundboard needs a chance to get vibrating - so there should not be much bracing near the bridge... but thereafter there ought to be some pretty solid braces in there for the high frequencies and overtones to grab on to.

I would be very curious to see a foto of the bracing of this oud naseer is playing. ---and compare that to the ouds he is currently using. To me his recent tone is very cold in comparison.

Edward Powell - 11-29-2009 at 10:07 AM

let me add something that Faruk told me several times.... that it saddened him that player would continuously pressure him to make a more and more loud and responsive instrument.... which forced him to make his soundboards so thin -- which he feels it TOO thin and renders the instrument too fragile and vulnerable.

He feels there is a tendency among players to want the RICH sound immediately - but he feels it is a better idea to make the soundboard more robust, and then let the tone open up naturally with time. Saying that a slightly heavier top will take about a year or so of playing to open it up - but then you have equally rich tone and a much stronger and hearty oud.

suz_i_dil - 11-29-2009 at 10:10 AM

I'm wondering if it is not also coming from a difference in strings tension, out of the difference of oud.

I get very different kind of response in sound depending on the type of tension I'm using on the same oud.

Maybe at this time he was using a lower tension? Moreover if Fawzy ouds are thicker, it was probably not possible to put such high tension (check Matthias Wagner P10 set for exemple...it goes high to 5 kilos for some courses).

What about the space between the notes?

shareen - 11-29-2009 at 01:33 PM

One of the things that for me, offers true depth of emotion in ANY part of life, especially music, is to be able to hear and be totally at ease with silence. When there is space between notes, when notes tumble out of a beautiful instrument like waves upon the sea, there is an amazing tranquility that occurs and that is when the player and listener truly can achieve a state of bliss. For the player that must constantly express by impressing with more and faster notes, they are missing the entire point. The great Munir Bashir expresses this the best, to me...so much space and thought between each note. His playing let the tears in.

Edward Powell - 11-29-2009 at 01:36 PM

Quote: Originally posted by shareen  
One of the things that for me, offers true depth of emotion in ANY part of life, especially music, is to be able to hear and be totally at ease with silence. When there is space between notes, when notes tumble out of a beautiful instrument like waves upon the sea, there is an amazing tranquility that occurs and that is when the player and listener truly can achieve a state of bliss. For the player that must constantly express by impressing with more and faster notes, they are missing the entire point. The great Munir Bashir expresses this the best, to me...so much space and thought between each note. His playing let the tears in.


EXACTLY!

Sazi - 11-29-2009 at 04:16 PM

Quote: Originally posted by shareen  
His playing let the tears in.


What a beautiful way of expressing it!

I agree wholeheartedly.

FLIPAX - 12-2-2009 at 03:12 PM

whhoohhhh!:applause:

I agree also! Sazi!

I like the first and second albums of naseer because it sounded more poetic and enchanting compare from his recent days!

Spaces on the notes are the most important thing I think you play oud! Capturing the melacholic vibe especially if your oud has a bit of good reverb.

whhhooooohh! Damn baby! ....Speaking of dynamics! Yeah! for me its better if I hear very good dynamic and melancholic oudist than rather playing bunch of runs up and down like some electric guitar player. e.g Emir hakanz no offense to those players. Great Techniques But I rather Listen to electric Guitar if thats the Case.

Just Stretching out my opinions here. Hope You all Understand. I did not want to offend other oudist.

Cheers

Philip:airguitar:

BTW (Edited. by Philip)

I'm Speaking of Virtuoso Electric Guitar Shredding if u know what I mean. They play bunch of notes to impress people. Not the Blues off course. Blues Style is not what I meant here.

B.B. King Rules Man!:xtreme: Godbless his hands!

Edward Powell - 12-3-2009 at 12:21 AM

But... in my opinion the same holds true for electric guitar (and all instruments for that matter). BBKING was the King of the blues not for his speed but because of his phrasing - and in particular the gaps and spaces he left between the phrases!

FLIPAX - 12-3-2009 at 04:08 AM

BTW (Edited. by Philip)

I'm Speaking of Virtuoso Electric Guitar Shredding if u know what I mean. They play bunch of notes to impress people. Not the Blues off course. Blues Style is not what I meant here.

B.B. King Rules Man!:xtreme: Godbless his hands!

Edward Powell - 12-3-2009 at 04:44 AM

...so many interesting off-shoots for discussion.

I think the "shredding" syndrome is what is happening all around us everywhere on the planet. FASTER AND FASTER AND FASTER. . . . . .

Every instrument is experiencing this ALSO OUD! Everyone's life is feeling the effects of this FAST MODERN WORLD where TIME IS MONEY. . . . etc etc...

of course opitimised in the Eddie Van Halen's of the world :airguitar:

FLIPAX - 12-3-2009 at 04:53 AM

HAHAHAAH LOL :bounce:

Good One Edward!

Some people can't seem to get out of the FAST FAST PLAYING WORLD!

More Showmanship More mechanical Playing and less Dramatic Scenery.....
U think so?

Philip

Edward Powell - 12-3-2009 at 04:59 AM

this is something I contemplate concerning my own career. I love to play solo concerts with my partner: SILENCE.

...I think people enjoy this, but they need to wind down first :)

http://www.youtube.com/user/edwardpowellmusic#p/u/9/KverV8vgV18

Sazi - 12-3-2009 at 05:04 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell  
TIME IS MONEY. . . .


I'll try telling that to all the people who always seem to want me to play for nothing!:(

FLIPAX - 12-3-2009 at 05:59 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Sazi  

I'll try telling that to all the people who always seem to want me to play for nothing!:(


That's alright for some occasions especially if its your friends. But far as professionalism goes they should spare some decency. They lose the credible player u are! Not your fault, Their Lost though......


Philip

Ronny Andersson - 12-3-2009 at 01:03 PM

I personally can not stand the new school that uses guitar technique. Shamma was interesting during those early years, but then with his rising popularity and power, he said very negative about other musicians that could have been unsaid. Cynicism was to market a new playing technique specifically for people with disabilities but it was more to play on peoples emotions and promote himself. I am still waiting to hear about a disabled, who can play with this new technique. He certainly knows how to get positive publicity.

Edward Powell - 12-3-2009 at 01:46 PM

My first meeting with Shamma illustrates an interesting point thru a funny story......

A good Italian friend (wonderful musician) knew that for years I was searching for a good oud teacher (this was 10 years ago)... he wrote me one day that he heard the BEST concert of his whole life, and it was an amazing oud player named Naseer Shamma, whom he met after the show.

The next time Shamma came to play in Ravenna, my friend invited me down to see the concert... I appreciated the performance but it was not the style of oud playing that I am personally interested in. He played a lot of romantic sounding stuff with a lot of chordal things. . . .

Afterwards I was discussing it with some of my Italian muscian friends who all said how much they liked it ESPECIALLY BECAUSE HE USED CHORDS AND HARMONY, AND HOW NORMALLY ORIENTAL MUSIC IS SO MONOTONE AND HARMONICALLY FLAT!