Ronny Andersson
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Oud with fluted ribs.
A European renaissance building technique used on Vihuelas, is now used for the first time on the oud by Foad Jihad of Iraq. I don't think this
technique ever was used on the European lute.
See more here Fluted ribs
Best wishes
Ronny
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samzayed
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Does "fluted" mean where the bowl is not smooth, but there is a slight edge between the ribs?
If that's so, Hussain Sabsaby ouds have that characteristic as well. What effect does that have on the sound?
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chuckerbutty
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The fluting technique involves bending the ribs along both dimensions - lengthwise as normal, and also crosswise. You can see some pictures of
vihuelas built using this technique here:
http://www.lutesandguitars.co.uk/htm/cat12.htm
As Ronny says, it doesn't appear that fluted ribs were ever used on European lutes, and the only surviving evidence for the technique is the back
of a single vihuela. Lute bowls are not sanded like oud bowls, so they always have edges along the ribs.
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Jonathan
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Is there an advantage to this technique, or is it more of a matter of aesthetics?
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samzayed
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Do you guys know if this is considered "fluted"
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chuckerbutty
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No, this is an oud bowl where the rib joints have been left unsmoothed. In a fluted bowl, each rib would have a concave cross-sectional profile.
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Ronny Andersson
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| Quote: | Originally posted by chuckerbutty
No, this is an oud bowl where the rib joints have been left unsmoothed. In a fluted bowl, each rib would have a concave cross-sectional profile.
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Chuckerbutty, the picture showed by Sam, looks like a renaissance lute bowl with only 9 ribs and I don't think it's possible to sand down
the edges with so few ribs.
Anyway, this type of construction is older than modern one with smoothed ribs.
Best wishes
Ronny
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Ronny Andersson
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Jonathan
Is there an advantage to this technique, or is it more of a matter of aesthetics? |
Sam, The technique used by Foad and his sons is different the one used for the vihuela.
The ribs are not bent but carved to produce the fluting. I believe it's impossible to bend the ribs on a lute bowl in two different directions.
Foad said it's takes about 3 months to manufacture the bowl and it's a very difficult technique to master.
The oud on the pictures was not finished!
Best wishes
Ronny
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Ronny Andersson
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Jonathan
Is there an advantage to this technique, or is it more of a matter of aesthetics? |
I'ts only for aesthetically reasons.
Best wishes
Ronny
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samzayed
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| Quote: | Chuckerbutty, the picture showed by Sam, looks like a renaissance lute bowl with only 9 ribs and I don't think it's possible to sand down
the edges with so few ribs.
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Actually, this is a Housain Sabsaby oud that he himself send me a picture of. http://www.oudsabsaby.com
Afif Taian's oud is a Sabsaby with this design.
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Ronny Andersson
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| Quote: | Originally posted by samzayed
| Quote: | Chuckerbutty, the picture showed by Sam, looks like a renaissance lute bowl with only 9 ribs and I don't think it's possible to sand down
the edges with so few ribs.
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Actually, this is a Housain Sabsaby oud that he himself send me a picture of. http://www.oudsabsaby.com
Afif Taian's oud is a Sabsaby with this design. |
Right, I saw recently a Syrian guy here in Sweden who have an identical oud made by Sabsaby.
Best wishes
Ronny
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chuckerbutty
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Hi Ronny
That's a good point about not being able to sand down a 9 rib bowl - I suppose there won't be much wood left once you'd finished.
As for fluted backs in European lutes, Stephen Barber surmises that the lute in Hans Holbein's painting 'The Ambassadors' appears to be
fluted, but perhaps unintentionally due to the wood shrinking. Certainly much of the iconography of the time shows lutes with very prominent rib
joints.
Cheers.
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Haluk
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I was producing bowls of ouds and sound boards of baglamas fluted, before 1980,but if the wood is male(we call woods male or female as the
characteristics of them)it can try to be straighten out.If the wood is female,to flute will be okay.Best of all, to produce bows with narrow ribs,as
my opinion.
Regards all.
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chuckerbutty
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A fluted bowl is not simply one with flat ribs and edges between the joints, as in the picture posted by Sam. This is standard practice in lute
making, and as Ronny says, probably predates the sanded bowls seen in modern ouds. In a fluted back, each rib is shaped into a channel, so to speak,
so the entire back has a series of ridges and troughs, giving it a sort of corrugated appearance. You can see this is Foad's oud if you look
closely.
Apologies for labouring the point.
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Jonathan
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If the rib is fluted by carving rather than by bending it, then the ribs must start out quite a bit thicker. Even after the carving of the
ribs/flutes, I would have to assume that the oud would be quite a bit heavier than a conventional oud. That would seem to me to be a distinct
disadvantage.
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Ronny Andersson
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Jonathan
If the rib is fluted by carving rather than by bending it, then the ribs must start out quite a bit thicker. Even after the carving of the
ribs/flutes, I would have to assume that the oud would be quite a bit heavier than a conventional oud. That would seem to me to be a distinct
disadvantage. |
Right, this bowl with fluted ribs is heavier than a conventional made bowl. Foad told me that he make the bowl as light as possible and uses a light
walnut wood but the bowl can never match the weight of a conventional bowl. He was very pleased with the sound and I hope to have one here soon to
show you. Some interesting facts about Foad is that he was a friend to Usta Ali who learnt him oud making.
Best wishes
Ronny
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Ronny Andersson
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| Quote: | Originally posted by chuckerbutty
Hi Ronny
That's a good point about not being able to sand down a 9 rib bowl - I suppose there won't be much wood left once you'd finished.
As for fluted backs in European lutes, Stephen Barber surmises that the lute in Hans Holbein's painting 'The Ambassadors' appears to be
fluted, but perhaps unintentionally due to the wood shrinking. Certainly much of the iconography of the time shows lutes with very prominent rib
joints.
Cheers. |
I'm happy that you mentioned Holbein's painting that have been so discussed.
I take the freedom and post it here.
Best wishes
Ronny
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billkilpatrick
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incidently -
the strange white "thing" stretched across the forground of the painting is the distorted image of a human skull. in his book on
"secret knowledge," the painter david hockney shows how mirrors and lenses were used by painters to reproduce and in some cases project
images onto paper or canvas - camera obscura, reflecting mirrors, camera lucida, etc.. these enabled the artist to trace the exact proportions of
the image.
lutes are extremely difficult to draw in any other but a full-frontal position. their images were often used in renaissance and baroque paintings to
demonstrate the painter's ability.
poor old holbein died of the plague and his body was thrown into some forgotten "plague pit" along with other anonymous victims.
- bill
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chuckerbutty
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Here is the Prodigal Son in the Tavern by Jan Cornelis, dating from 1540 - i.e roughly contemporary with the Holbein. The lute in it shows some
definite signs of a fluted bowl, with the rib adjoining the soundboard flat (as you would expect).
Bill, have you come across Philip Steadman's book 'Vermeer's Camera'? It's all about how Vermeer might have used a camera
obscura to set up his paintings of domestic interiors. Well worth a peek.
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chuckerbutty
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Prodigal son
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bahleh13
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Idea for construction
This fluted oud sounds great, but the carving is kind of impractical, and I wouldnt find anything special about it. I am not sure it is fluted in this
case, coz the inner surface of the bowl is smooth, like a normal oud.
I was turning the idea in my head, and I thought of a way, i am not sure how practical is it, it is just a theory, and it requires a lot of
mathematics, craftsmanship, and patience. I cant perform it myself either to report if it works or no, so I could only suggest it to the makers here
(Jameel, Haluk, Ghadban) or the pros about construction (Dr. Oud, Ronny), and see if they find it a reasonable idea or no.
Thing is, bending on two directions cant be performed simultaneously, unless under loads of strain, and my idea would be to perform it by pressing it
in shape by moulds from two directions. SO a special mould would be required, with depressions to form the surface, and an upper mould to press the
rib in its place and form. So if y'all have enough imagination, U can try to picture that the upper mould (to press each rib alone) should be
carved to shape to fit the basic mould lengthwise, and by cross-section...
In order to form the exact width of the rib, initially the rib should be cut wider than planned, in order to bend it to reach desirable width, edges
then can be smoothed to fit with the next ribs. Of course the problem would be that the neck and base blocks should either have grooves carved into
them so as not to distort teh shape of the ribs at the ends, or made smaller and the spaces resulting from elevated edges filled (dunno if
possible).
I attached a drawing I made by MS Paint (not good quality nor very detailed) in order to help visualize my idea, how I thought of it. It is a cross
section of the plan, the yellow would be the upper mould (of course i drew three, whereas one is enough for construction, in order to show the
theoretical position of it). The orange/light brown is the rib itself, pressed in place, The dark brown is the bowl's mould, with the grooves in
it to shape the rib, aided of course by pressure from the upper mould. Of course I hope the crude diagram helps delivering the idea complete...
So what do u think? Is it possible to construct Ouds like that, taking in account correct fluted form and at the same time conserving the sound
quality? Any ideas or comments? I am open.
Yours truly,
Basel 
P.S. I would like to have one Oud with fluted ribs, form looks nice, but I dunno if playing it would be very comfortable (imagine the pressure of the
rib joint into your thigh).
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Ronny Andersson
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Take a look at Daniel Larson's website:
Fluted_1
Fluted_2
Best wishes
Ronny
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Jonathan
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I wonder if fluting the ribs in this way, rather than using the "carving" technique, would alter the sound qualities of the oud. The sound
wave pattern would certainly change, with the waves bouncing off the ribs in many different angles, rather than being more generally directed toward
the same point using the smooth, rounded bowl.
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Dr. Oud
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| Quote: | | Originally posted by bahleh13"Thing is, bending on two directions cant be performed simultaneously, unless under loads of strain, and my
idea would be to perform it by pressing it in shape by moulds from two directions. SO a special mould would be required, with depressions to form the
surface, and an upper mould to press the rib in its place and form..... |
I don't believe you can bend wood in these two direction under any circumstance, with any method. The curve of the oud back is much tighter than
the back of a vihuela, and the edges of the concave rib section would have to stretch beyond the limits of the material to achieve the shape of an oud
back. The ribs must be bent in a thicker cross section and carved into the "flutes". As for the reflective qualities of the back, it would
be no different than any other oud. The acoustic waveform is spherical and expands from the source (the string) like ripples in a pond when you drop a
rock in the water, only in all directions through the air. The higher frequencies dissipate due to their higher speed and denser pattern (that's
why they sound higher) The lower frequencies reflect because they are slower and farther apart and can actually amplify under the right conditions of
the sound chamber, (like the exponential horn in a bass speaker cabinet). As for irregularities in the inside surface of the back, the faceting of a
low number of ribs are negligible, it takes a lot of angled surfaces of porous material to absorb sound waves. Look at an anechoic chamber used in
acoustical testing. The back is simply a chamber, and the volume is the only factor affecting the bass resonance produced. Since there is no
exponential shape to expand the waveform there is only resonance with certain frequencies produced by the strings. Which frequencies are enhanced is a
complex relationship between the string, the face and braces and the volume of the back.
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Ronny Andersson
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bahleh13
) or the pros about construction (Dr. Oud, Ronny), and see if they find it a reasonable idea or no.. |
I am very far from being an pro about construction!
Best wishes
Ronny
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