Jameel
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Radio Shows on oud and arabic jazz
Found these surfing around.
http://audio.stanleyfdn.org/mp3/cg0414-7.mp3
http://audio.stanleyfdn.org/mp3/cg0343-7.mp3
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revaldo29
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Jazz oud
Thanx Jameel for the recordings,
I have always been curious, has anyone tried playing Jazz scales on a oud? I've played drums in a Jazz band for sometime and have always toyed
with the idea of Jazz oud. I know Mr. Patterson is a fantastic Jazz guitarist, maybe he can provide us with some information. Jameel, have you heard
of anyone doing this before?
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LeeVaris
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Jazz Oud
I suppose it depends on what you consider Jazz – one of my favorite albums is "Thimar" w/ John Surman on Sax, Dave Holland-Bass and Anouar
Brahem on Oud - I believe Anouar Brahem composed all the pieces. This is an ECM jazz album with some very sophisticated playing. The oud parts have an
arabic feel to them but Anouar is definitely stretching a bit outside of the normal maqam-based improvisation through chord changes, etc...
I would also look at the Glen Moore album "Nude Bass Ascending" featuring Rabih Abou Khalil on oud - this album is more avant-garde and the
playing is a lot more "outside"
Really, all oud taqasim could be considered jazz because it is so highly improvisational!
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maran
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i have this album and have listenened to it a fair amount too. i like it for the quality of it's compositions which are built around simple but
compelling melodic ideas. but i would like to reiterate an observation made a while back about anouar brahem in one of the other threads which is
that he rarely ever plays anything other than tempered notes. someone will probably be able to prove me wrong on this by coming up with
counterexamples but for me my overall impression of brahem listening to this and other albums (that include examples of solo playing) is that he
doesn't present you with the full microtonal possibilities of the oud. in an interview with keith jarrett i heard one time i remember him saying
that when he was younger he would go to performances of dave brubeck and come away thinking that brubeck was presenting only a limited range of the
possibilities of his instrument. i feel this is a somewhat analogous situation.
this makes me sometimes reevaluate the idea that it's always a good idea for musicians to be exposed to other musical traditions (although
looking at people like adel salameh and joseph tawadros show it obviously can be). brahem, who has lived in paris for more than 30 years and
collabrated with musicians from a wide variety of backgrounds, has obviously absorbed a lot of western music. could the absence of non-tempered notes
in his playing be a consequence of that? (i am just throwing out these ideas for the sake of debate. brahem is a musician of the highest caliber -
one doesn't become an ecm musician and record with the likes of dave holland and john surman by being mediocre. his technique, phrasing, and
compositional abilities are just superb).
on this album thimar though, although as you say the material stretches outside of the traditional maqam-based improvisation through chord changes,
etc., i don't recall the soloing parts being improvisation over those chord progressions the way one finds in more traditional jazz. i have to
admit though i haven't listened to the album in a while though so i'm sort of going out on a limb here by saying this. and by the way
i've never heard any of rabih abou khalil's stuff although i've been aware of him for a while. how does he compare with brahem?
which brings me to my next point. i don't think that all improvisation is necessarily jazz. arguing over what is and what isn't jazz is i
agree a useless exercise. i won't attempt to give a strict definition of what jazz is. i have my own ideas about the subject but will keep them
to myself unless any of the other jazz fans care to open up a discussion about it.
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JamesOud
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Hello Maran, I love Anouar Brahem, but agree with you. Put in mind that most of the musicians Anouar plays with are not trained in playing microtones,
so there might be a relucantance to perform them. This shouldnt stop him using them in his solos though. For another "jazz" aspect look at
the "Joseph Tawadros on the web" in the forum which was posted by Lee. It's a broadcast of a concert of Joseph and a guitarist, it
sounds much more jazzy, and experimental, there is also some chord progression.
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journeyman
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jazz scales
Hello,
I won't comment on Anouar because he is one of my favourite musicians, but as far as "jazz Scales" go, perhaps I can offer
something. In my research and experience in playing, studying and teaching jazz music over the last 25 or so years, I have found that for the most
part jazz musicians use 3 or 4 scales. The most common ones and most important are the major, melodic minor, (ascending form) harmonic minor and
diminished. To this list we must add various forms of pentatonic scales, but these can be viewed as dirivations of the more common diatonic scale
forms, and the so-called "bop scales" can be found in classical music, and are really just common diatonic scales with added semitones. The
whole tone scale yields one chord, and is used les frequently. I am talking about the mainstream of the tradition here. (1940' to mid or late
1960s) Within each scale there are of course modes, but these are simply a different way of organizing the pitches in the scale. So, if we refer to
each mode as a separate scale, then there are quite a few "jazz scales" but in reality, there are only a few very common pitch sets that we
can refer to as actual scales.
In closing, I will offer my opinion that jazz, as an art form, is defined by a particular set of resources and principles. The two most important
components are rhythm and improvisation. Jazz is a word that gets used much too liberally these days, and perhaps shouldn't be used at all. (Duke
Ellington objected to the use of the term to describe the music that he played) To come back to the idea of scales, of course some jazz musicians use
scales from non western sources, but it is generally the exception. Feel free to comment, it is only one way of looking at this topic.
All the best,
Roy
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LeeVaris
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| Quote: | Originally posted by journeyman
Jazz is a word that gets used much too liberally these days, and perhaps shouldn't be used at all.
y |
An interesting idea... but what would you use instead?
It seems to me that people get way too uptight about this. The word "jazz" has become a very large container for a diverse range of musical
idioms that only share the element of improvisation. My response is... "so what else is new?" Even traditional American jazz (???) is broken
up into very different forms like New Orleans, Swing, Be-Bop, Cool, Fusion – even Ragtime is considered jazz in academic circles! Bebop & Cool
Jazz migrated to Europe and eventually incubated and morphed into a new kind of "world jazz" that drew from diverse ethnic influences and,
in turn, influenced American musicians who, in turn influenced... well... you get the idea. The thing is that "jazz" is "modern"
– its what is current in improvisational music – even though it now has a history! It doesn't stand still. It is hard to categorize because
it is constantly evolving. We've seen African roots jazz, Indian Raga jazz, Latin jazz... we are long over due for Middle Eastern jazz... its
unavoidable! "Modern" is also different than traditional – it has to be! That is a good thing! Otherwise music would become frozen into
nothing but historical preservation!
As far as scale structure goes... in jazz, nothing is off limits! As Roy says "The two most important components are rhythm and
improvisation." – sounds like the two most important components of middle eastern music to me!
Anouar Brahem plays "JAZZ", maybe it is middle eastern jazz... I don't know. Maybe he doesn't play a lot of quarter tones... so
what? His music is "modern", "contemporary"... and compelling! He is not Munir Bashir! For me... he is a consummate artist who
plays from the heart with soul. Technically, he is definitely advancing the art of the oud! I think it is ridiculous to say that he doesn't
realize the potential of the instrument because he chooses not to use quater-tones in the solos that he has recorded! His improvisations are perfectly
realized! Where has he missed a note? His use of rythm, dynamics and tonal variation are unequaled by almost every contemporary player! Does he play
good Taqasim? No... he doesn't play Taqasim, not in the traditional sense. He doesn't modulate into different maqam - hell, he doesn't
play in anything but Nahawand, Kurd, Hijaz and Ajam... maybe Mahur – thats it! But... you know what... thats enough!
If you really want that DEEP Arabic thing... listen to Munir Bashir ( or, of course Farid) – there's quite a few young players who've
taken on the mantle of Taqasim master - Afif Taian comes to mind as well as the amazing Joseph Tawadros! Its all good !!!!
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oudmad
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Oud Links
I am new to this site and I love it. Someone please help: Whenever I click many of the links, I get the message "unable to connect to this
server.." Any suggestions as to how I can get to the oud links more efficiently? Thanks. Second question, any CDs by the artists that appear
on this site's videos? I am really impressed by Joseph Twadros, Afif, etc. Thanks for your help.
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JamesOud
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Hello, Afif has a cd called sunset which you can get from http://www.maqam.com, as for Joseph Tawadros you can purchase from a number of places just do a google search. The cd is called Storyteller.
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Tablah23
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very bad
the key boardest present in these recording is awful. He tore up the songs. I must admit, i like the trumpet guy though.
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Lazzaro
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Hi I am an italian jazz guitarist who started to play oud two years ago. I read your opinions regarding the oud and jazz with interest and I want give
my contribution at the debate with mine interpretation of two famous beboop tunes: Round midnight (T.Monk) and A night in Tunisia (D.Gillespie). I am
very curious to know your opinion.
Looking forward to have your feed back I send my regards to everybody and the compliments for your Web site,
Maurizio
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Lazzaro
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the second file
Maurizio
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LeeVaris
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Bravo!!!
yeah... why not?
I love "Round Midnight" - you even managed to get an arabic feel in there! "A Night in Tunisia" seems a little manic... I think
the percussion needs a little more focus but the oud swings! Keep it up!!!
Monk's music has a great deal of potential for reinterpretation in a makam modal structure - certain notes just beg to be a little more flat or
sharp and he's always resolving phrases to notes that are unexpected and hanging on them, almost like modulating to another mode (makam?)
Something like "Bolivar Blues" comes to mind.
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Greg
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Thanks Lazzaro.
Round Midnight works really well. It is one of my favourite tunes and your interpretation on oud was splendid. I detect a little Django influence in
there as well. A great combination of influences, thanks.
Regards,
Greg
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Lazzaro
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I would like to thank Lee Varis and Greg for their positive comments. This encourage me to keep on going playing the oud. After having played guitar
for more than 30 years playing the oud makes me feel a young student with the passion to know more and more about this wonderful instrument.
I am so pleased that I thought to bother you again and to attach other two files. I hope you will not get bored with my music!
Thank you again and Ciao
Maurizio Lazzaro
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Lazzaro
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the second file
Maurizio Lazzaro
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LeeVaris
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Very Cool
Keep it up Maurizio!
The Concerto d'Aranjuez thing works very well... are you double tracking on that?
Anthropology seems very guitaristic... are you using standard Arabic tuning or did you re-tune to get guitar intervals? I'd like to hear a little
more oud flavor here. I don't know... maybe a little hard to do in this piece. Still cool though!
Keep going...
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Brian Prunka
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This is an interesting topic . . . the cross-pollination of jazz and arabic music is, in my opinion, an area with many possibilities.
to touch on some of the points raised:
I would say that much of what Brahem does is as much jazz as it is anything else. I mean, it doesn't sound like arabic music. It generally
follows a head-solos-head structure of some kind, and although they don't solo over chord progressions usually, neither did coltrane in his later
period. Most of it doesn't use swing eight notes, but there's a ton of jazz from 1960 to the present that doesn't either. But really
it's neither; it's a kind of music for which there isn't a name (yet, anyway), which I think is a great accomplishment. Like Bill
Frisell, whose music doesn't fit into any genre except his own.
The is-it-or-isn't-it jazz question is kind of silly, i think, because the real questions should be: is it good? is it deep? is it honest? If it
is, then who cares what else it is? (not me)
This all goes for Rabih Abou-Khalil as well.
an interesting record to check out is "Jazz Sahara" by Ahmed Abdul-Malik (thelonious monk's bass player for a while). Recorded in
1958, it brings together Abdul Malik on bass and oud, several middle eastern musicians (violin, qanun, percussion) and Johnny Griffin on sax, and Al
Harewood on drum set. the repertoire consists of some mangled half-remembered doulabs and a bunch of improvisation. Not entirely successful, but
pretty groovy and totally amazing for 1958.
re jazz scales:
another scale used pervasively in jazz though less commonly acknowledged is the so-called Harmonic Major scale (Ionian b6). Most commonly used in its
fifth mode (mixolydian b2), it is rarely discussed as a specific scale but shows up in tons of solos going back to the swing era, and heavily used in
the bebop period. Its primary purpose is in playing over songs in major keys when they use chords borrowed from the parallel minor (iim7b5, ivm6,
V7b9, viio7). It is at least as commonly used as the symmetrical diminished scale (at least until the jazz education establishment mandated the use
of the diminished scale). More recently the symmetrical augmented scale has come into common usage.
also, while this is somewhat off-topic, i'd like to clarify something that seems like a big misconception about western music.
tempered tuning is not the same as western tuning.
western tuning (which isn't just western, since it is also the rule in indian music) ideally applies many microtonal inflections although these
variations are not given separate names. this is the case with vocal groups, string ensembles (good ones, anyway), horn choirs, and any other western
music not restricted to a fixed set of pitches. Tempered tuning is a compromise that allows twelve fixed pitches (and their octaves) to sort of stand
in for the full range of pitches that would be used in ideal circumstances. To truly play diatonically in a major key requires at least eight
different pitches in western music (two different major 6ths are required), while a chromatic piece with no significant modulation requires in the
neighborhood of 30 pitches.
Pentatonics can't simply be considered derivatives of the related heptatonic scales because they usually have their own tuning peculiarities (for
example the common "major" pentatonic exclusively uses the "pythagorean" major sixth, while the major scale mostly uses the
"just" major sixth, with some application of the pythagorean variant. even on tempered instruments, the brain somehow realizes the
difference, though more vaguely). Similarly, the modes of a scale often have slightly different tunings because the key has changed. So they
actually are distinct, more than the derivative concept would seem to suggest. (Although for most practical purposes, especially in jazz, the
distinction is negligible).
So my point is (I actually do have a point!), even though Brahem doesn't use half-flats or half-sharps, he rarely plays tempered intervals unless
forced to by the limitations of a tempered instrument such as the piano or accordion. Thimar and Astrakhan cafe, having only variable pitch
instruments, primarily use the more pure form of western tuning. Arabic music can used tempered intervals as well, which is what many Arabic keyboards
and accordionists seem to do. Quarter-tones can be tempered, since temperament simply means adjusting a set of fixed pitches for optimum usage.
(though most people use it nowadays to refer more specifically to equal temperament, in which an octave is divided evenly into twelve (or more) equal
parts). 24-tone equal temperament is still temperament.
the progression of harmonic complexity in western music is due in part to the increasing ability of composers to manipulate the ambiguity inherent in
temperament in order to effect modulations that would be difficult or impossible in pure tuning (for example, Giant Steps by John Coltrane, Sonata in
F minor by beethoven, All the things you are, Dolphin Dance, etc.)
For an excellent and in-depth analysis of this subject, I recommend "Harmonic Experience" by Mathieu.
whew! sorry for the long post . . .
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LeeVaris
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Wow Brian... deep stuff there
A bit over my head but fascinating... I know that there are correlates in Western music scale/modes for a lot of Arabic Maqams. Nahawand is the
Harmonic minor, etc.. Maqams like saba and sikah are very different... but there are other "jazz" scales that seem very close in character
to some Arabic maqams. It also seems that western scale/modes can occur in almost any key but Arabic maqams tend to be limited to a few specific
"keys". people talk about "C" family maqams or "D" family maqams but you can play in Nahawand from "G", etc..
sometimes the same intervals in a different "key" or at least starting note, are given completely different maqam names. It gets very
confusing. The Arabic system of maqam modulations is also a bit different than the western harmonic modulations from key to key.
Brian, could you perhaps expand on some of these ideas...?
I'm looking up "Jazz Sahara" as I write this - Brian have you heard "Blue Camel"?
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Greg
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To Brian
Brian, I am so pleased that you came in on this thread. I must admit that I have been wondering what your take would be on all this. I would love to
hear what you would do with some of the "standards" on oud.
To Maurizio
Like Lee, I felt your rendition of the Chick Corea piece worked better on oud than did Anthropology. But Anthropology swung like the proberbial
outhouse door 
I really enjoyed both pieces and I guess that's really the ultimate test. But, like Lee, I would love to hear you explore the maqamat even more
in pieces that allow you to do so.
Thanks very much for sharing.
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Lazzaro
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Thank you a lot for your comments. I am getting to know the Arab music very slowly.
At the moment, I manage to play only two songs of Umm Kalthum and the Samai which I found on this site. I have tried several times to play on Maqam
Rast with not very good results as I have found difficult the Arabic 1/4 tone. Reading this Web Site and the Maqam World Site helped me a lot to have
a better knowledge. I hope I would slowly get to know better and better the rules of the Arabic Music.
I have been trying to get the rules of Takasim istinctivily by listening to Nasser Shamma, Manur Bashir, Said Chraibi, Anouar Brahem and the great
Farid el Atrash and other instrument players although I still can not understand them.
Thanking you again, I attach my short modal improvisation with which I do not pretend to play Arabic Music,
Maurizio Lazzaro
P.S. yes, i recorded an other trak on Spain
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Lazzaro
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I am sorry...I forgot to reply to one of Lee' questions. I use the following tuning for my oud: from bass to high is E A D G C F even when I
played Anthropology.
On spain i used C# F# B E A D with my turkish oud
Bye bye Maurizio
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