DavidJE
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Mavrothi's Nikriz Longa
Today I've finally recorded a composition I love...that I've been working on for a long time. It's a Nikriz longa composed by Mavrothi
Kontanis...forum member here and my oud teacher. As a relative beginner, this piece has been really challenging for me...probably more so than any
classical Ottoman composition I've played...due to all the string switching, etc.. I love Mav's compositions, and I hope to be able to record more of
them in the future. Here's the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEquQqyZzzk
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majnuunNavid
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Nice one! I can see you are taking the Oud seriously David, that's awesome!
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Jono Oud N.Z
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Cool piece .
I enjoyed your oud tone and playing.
Good work bro.
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DavidJE
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Thanks guys!
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Brian Prunka
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Nice job, David! If I may make one suggestion, it would be to keep your thumb straight and not let that joint bend while picking. This is a
guitaristic habit and is not good on the oud.
Watch Mav here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JahZwPBhNrY
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DavidJE
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Thanks Brian. I work on that from time to time, but it always naturally comes back! As soon as I don't think about it, it returns. I've never
played guitar, so I'm not sure why I do it. But thanks for the reminder. 
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geokal
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i have seen some photos of yorgo bacanos bending his thumb like this.Is it entirly wrong to bend if that helps in some parts of playing?
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Brian Prunka
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geokal, trying to open your photos takes me to a malicious site, you should just upload the photos here.
I've never seen a good oud player bend his or her thumb in this way. Rather than saying "right" or "wrong" how about we agree that it is
statistically improbable that the practice leads to effective technique.
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Jody Stecher
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I think it is a matter of not moving the thumb during a stroke of the plectrum. Some people's thumbs are straight when at rest and the thumbs of
others are bent when at rest. If the thumb is naturally bent, then straightening it out is not the thing to do. So far I have not seen a photo of
Bacanos where his thumb is straight. This causes me to speculate that perhaps his thumb was naturally bent at rest.
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Brian Prunka
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Quote: Originally posted by DavidJE  | | Thanks Brian. I work on that from time to time, but it always naturally comes back! As soon as I don't think about it, it returns. I've never
played guitar, so I'm not sure why I do it. But thanks for the reminder.
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Ask Mav in your lessons for some exercises to sort out your stroke . . . I'm sure he can help you. It's a matter of having the correct habit replace
the bad habit
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geokal
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i'm so sorry about unorthodox way of uploading photos.I tried to upload here but i couldn't make it. I'm not completely familiar yet.i promise next
time i'll find out how to do that.
About the thumb.I sometimes bending(but not moving) when playing tremolo in three lower strings.I think maybe the best thing is to "have" 2-3
different ways and use them accordingly to the piece or kind of music.
I have to say that i play almost two years the oud but before that about 25 years of guitar playing.i never bending on guitar.
here you can see farid al atrash not only bending when playing tremolo but also moving his thumb.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sME4W_NjUs
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Brian Prunka
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I think you are misunderstanding what is happening in the Farid video. He is not moving the thumb in the way that we're talking about. His thumb
moves a bit between a relaxed position (very slightly bent) and a straighter position. This is just a side effect of slight variations in position,
he is not bending the thumb as part of the stroke.
Not every guitar player uses a bent thumb, there are many styles of guitar playing. However, it is a quite common and legitimate technique. I've
played guitar for over 25 years also and have played oud 17 years.
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geokal
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You describe it exactly as it is.He use all kinds of techniques.
That's what i think is best for a player.
When playing tremolo in lower(bass) strings i see that he bends more and also change the angle of risha.
I know you are also a (jazz?) guitarist from your youtube channel!
By the way i found great music there!
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Jody Stecher
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| Quote: Originally posted by geokal | You describe it exactly as it is.He use all kinds of techniques.
That's what i think is best for a player.
When playing tremolo in lower(bass) strings i see that he bends more and also change the angle of risha.
I know you are also a (jazz?) guitarist from your youtube channel!
By the way i found great music there! |
Half way through the video he interrupts his taqsim to get better in tune. He tunes and sounds the strings with his thumb and no risha. His thumb
certainly bends and moves during the stroke when he does this. The rest of the time I can see no stroke in which the thumb moves during the stroke.
Of course I see the reflexive upward movement of his entire thumb after a heavy downstroke. that's just Newton's Third Law. This is not the kind of
thumb movement seen in David's video.
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DavidJE
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I'll ask Mav about this in our next lesson. He has remarked on it before. But in general his take has been that everyone plays slightly differently,
and that I will work out the best "form" for myself...not necessary to mess with if it's not causing problems or issues with my playing/learning.
That may not be his specific thoughts in this case...don't want to put words in his mouth.
I have seen other players though who use their thumb. For example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIUpqeDg-p4
and
https://youtu.be/ZLBYxovYv0k
So I'm curious...Brian and Jody, what do you think the this messes up? Or, why do you think it should be avoided? I'm not arguing with you. I'd
just like to know your thoughts on what you think it could be hurting. Thanks!
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Jody Stecher
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| Quote: Originally posted by DavidJE |
So I'm curious...Brian and Jody, what do you think the this messes up? Or, why do you think it should be avoided? I'm not arguing with you. I'd
just like to know your thoughts on what you think it could be hurting. Thanks! |
Every change in thumb position results in a change of the angle at which the plectrum contacts the string and this in turn affects the tone. Any move
which adversely affects the tone should be avoided. In your video your thumb is pointed diagonally towards the floor. if you try playing with the
thumb close to parallel to the floor you are likely to find that the tone of a downstroke is now broader and more resonant. More tone and more volume
without an increase in effort is a big plus, no?
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DavidJE
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That sounds like it makes sense Jody. I do notice that when my plectrum is close to parallel (vs too diagonal) my tone is better. Thanks!
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Brian Prunka
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Hi David,
It's hard to explain but I will try. Keep in mind that none of this is 100%, just tendencies.
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Brian Prunka
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There are two primary problems:
your risha attack and hand are likely to be at a suboptimal angle.
you are likely to be using the wrong muscle groups to drive your stroke
These two issues can create the following effects:
less focused sound
less power/projection
poor tone
strain
fatigue
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Brian Prunka
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It's difficult to judge from video, since the microphone doesn't give a good sense of the projection/power of the sound. One thing I will note is
that both of these players are still primarily driving the sound from the forearm/wrist and the base of the thumb. In your video, you seem to be
actually using the tip of your thumb to push the stroke. This is 1) a very weak muscle group, which will limit your technique and 2) not ideal since
you should never "push" through the string.
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Brian Prunka
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If everything else about your stroke is working well then it may be possible to incorporate some bent thumb technique (on guitar this is sometimes
called circular picking) as a special flavor or for a particular technical purpose. I wouldn't rule it out entirely.
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Brian Prunka
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But based on your video, I think you would benefit by avoiding it for the time being. That is, by working on risha technique strictly driven by the
traditional muscle groups, your practice will be more focused and you will develop your technique more. If, once you have solidified your foundation,
you feel that you want to use the thumb in this way then by all means explore.
sorry about the multiple posts, the forum was acting strange and this was the only way to get it to let me post the response.
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DavidJE
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Thanks Brian!
You know, my playing compared to other oud players I've met in person tends to be much quieter, and I have trouble playing at their volume. I've
always thought that part of this is because I try not to play loud when I practice, as not to disturb neighbors in our apartment building, or my wife
for that matter. Recently though I've been practicing more in my in-law's basement, so I can play as loud as I want. Probably, trying to play
quietly hasn't helped my form. Keeping my thumb straight and focusing on playing from the forearm/wrist does cause my playing to be louder and with a
better tone I think. I'll keep working on it, and ask Mav more about it in our next lesson.
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