Al Billings
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Concave Oud Belly
Afer 7 years the belly on my Najarian Turkish oud has "shifted," gradually developing a concave area in front of the bridge, and the bridge
itself has tilted forward. I'm sure some of you know exactly what I'm describing. Action has gone from 3 mm to approx. 4 mm, which
doesn't really bother me all that much. In fact, the oud seems to have a little more projection now, but that could also be because the
oud's tone has continued to open. And I have no problem playing the oud, which, by the way sounds great. I'd appreciate comments from any
oudis who know why this happens. I've been told that most oud bellies shift, and a lot of the ouds I've seen display that phenomenon.
I've heard that several makers claim that their ouds are stable and flat forever. I play in Celik's tuning. I use a standard string set on
the highest four courses, a .44 wound for the low B and two .36's for the low F# course. I've used that tuning for over a year and the
action has gone no higher and the neck is completely straight and aligned properly, so I don't think the tuning is part of the problem. If any of
you have knowledge about this aspect of the oud, please post what you know. It's the first time I've been able to ask this question in a
forum where a lot of players can answer.
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Jameel
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Al,
Where are you measuring the action at?
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Al Billings
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Concave Oud Belly
I'm measuring where the neck meets the body.
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Ronny Andersson
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Al, Could it be that our ouds are to weak for modern string materials and modern pitches? I know that Yaroub reinforces his classical ouds with his
own invention to prevent this problem. I hope Dr.Oud will share some of his knowledge in this subject.
Best wishes
Ronny
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Al Billings
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Concave Oud Belly
Ronny, I wonder that myself. I understand that setting the pitch of ouds was an arbitrary decision made in the early thirties. That old Shamli oud of
mine ended up sounding better when I put lighter gauge strings on it. Also, it's curious that no matter how often I tune my ouds to pitch, and
they are all in good physucal condition, they always seem to eventually backslide down a half-step. Maybe the oud is telling us something. I have no
experience with gut strings, but maybe someone on this message board can let us know if the older gut strings had less tension. Playing alone, I
always leave my ouds wherever they seem happiest.
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Brian Prunka
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Hi Al,
have you talked to Najarian about it? I've played about 4 of his ouds (including my own). Mine is 5 years old and has a little bit of a dip in
it, but I had the bracing redone near the bridge, which strengthened the top. the others were 1 year old (slight dip), 3 years old (noticeable dip),
and 7 years old (really bad dip). The 7 year old oud I played had a serious crack in the face as a result of this.
I think a slight dip in the face is part of Viken's design, though I'm not sure.
For what it's worth, Najib Shaheen told me that it's not a problem unless it gets severe.
I know that in my oud, having a stronger brace put nearer to the bridge strengthened the top and improved the projection and balance of the
instrument.
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Al Billings
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concave oud belly
I don't know. I've played several Najarians and they all shift a bit. My teacher has two a-500's and they're terrific instruments.
Like I said in my posting, the action isn't all that much higher. And my Egyptian oud has such low action (2.5 mm) that I might be getting a
little soft. I'm just concerned about it rising more in the future. Also, cold weather raises the action, and I might want to see how it is in
the spring before I commit suicide over it. It sounds really nice now, strong and clear, but the idea of it sounding better is seductive. How is Najib
to work with? Is that who fixed your oud?
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Dr. Oud
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Many makers create a concave face to avoid the face taking on the "S" curve due to string tension. Because the oud has such a delicate
structure, the relentless force of the strings over tiime will cause the face to dip over time. Many old ouds I've seen have evidence of this
condition shown by their reset necks and trimmed down top rib edges. Lighter guage strings and/or lower pitch tunings will delay the deformation, but
eventually all ouds will comply with the force of the strings. The deformation is caused by the body of the oud collapsing toward the neck, affecting
a raise in the tail end. I don't like to overbrace the face to remedy this as it will dampen the soud. I set up the neck so that the initial
action is achieved with the string loops tied high on the bridge. As the oud deforms over time, I can lower the string loop.
Richard
http://www.droud.com
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Al Billings
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Awright, Richard, You're not fooling me. Centuries ago oud makers realized that fools like me would become addicted to the instrument, so the
early builders came up with a nefarious plan; they designed oud tops that would become concave at the least-expected times, causing us all to rush to
our luthiers for new fingerboards and lower bridges. And I know that all you oud makers gather every few years at a secret location where you decide
how much longer you can make us wait for our new instruments, a number you arrive at by tossing darts at a target. Then you send your uncles to the
Atlas Mountains to look for wood, all the while speaking to us about new ouds in a language filled with mystical assurances and arcane wood-working
jargon. Now to top it off, you tell us that the ouds we waited so long for for will transform themselves into sunken-bellied versions of their own
youthful figures, no more reliable than the Greyhound Bus schedule. Jeez, Richard! And actually, thanks for the posting and the explanation of why oud
tops sink. Despite my humor, I'm gld you're out there.
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Brian Prunka
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Al,
Yes, Najib is who I have work on my oud. He really knows what he's doing.
I'm sure Dr. Oud knows what he's talking about, but contrary to what he implied, the different bracing actually improved the sound, making
it louder and projecting more evenly on all the strings.
But from your description, it soesn't sound like your oud is in any immediate danger . . .
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Ronny Andersson
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>The deformation is caused by the body >of the oud collapsing toward the neck, >affecting a raise in the tail end.
Rikard, On the Bashir oud by Mohammad Fadel, is the soundboard bent- could this prevent the deformation since I have never seen or heard about this
problems with Mohammad's Bashir ouds?
Any opinions whether if would be possible to build a classical oud with a bent soundboard?
Best wishes
Ronny
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Dr. Oud
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"I know that all you oud makers gather every few years at a secret location...so the early builders came up with a nefarious plan "
OK Al, you found us out. Now we'll have to cast our spell that causes bridges to fly off and pegs to slip constantly! You can break the spell by
playing your oud while standing on your head for 1 hour (attach pictures for proof).
"I have never seen or heard about this problems with Mohammad's Bashir ouds?"
The Bashir oud puts a different pressure on the face, (compressive) where the "classical" oud with a glued bridge twists the face. This
torsion is more likely to deform the face, dipping in front and raising behind the bridge. The Bashir face does deform slightly, as you mentioned how
the bottom of the bridge fits differently when the strings are tuned up. The deformation is straight down and over a larger area, rather than a
"S" curve shape of the glued bridge. The Bashir design also uses a stronger support structure than a tradilitional oud.
"Any opinions whether if would be possible to build a classical oud with a bent soundboard?"
An interesting idea, Ronny, but I think the bend in the Bashir face is to keep the strings in alignment with the neck while maintaining the height off
the face. The bend might help to keep the tail end in place, however. Hmmmmmm?
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Ronny Andersson
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>An interesting idea, Ronny, but I think >the bend in the Bashir face is to keep >the strings in alignment with the neck >while
maintaining the height off the >face.
Yes Richard, Yaroub uses a different method to handle a to high unplayable string action on his Bashir ouds - he increases the fingerboard thickness.
This is necessary when his ouds have flat soundboards.
About a classical oud built with a bent face: the bridge is a problem when the increased height would change the sound dramatically.
Best wishes
Ronny
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Dr. Oud
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"the bridge is a problem when the increased height would change the sound dramatically."
Yes, but if the face was bent below the bridge? Intriguing, no?
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Ronny Andersson
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| Quote: |
Yes, but if the face was bent below the bridge? Intriguing, no? |
Sure, is worth a serious research.
Best wishes
Ronny
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coolsciguy
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Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  | Hi Al,
have you talked to Najarian about it? I've played about 4 of his ouds (including my own). Mine is 5 years old and has a little bit of a dip in it,
but I had the bracing redone near the bridge, which strengthened the top. the others were 1 year old (slight dip), 3 years old (noticeable dip), and
7 years old (really bad dip). The 7 year old oud I played had a serious crack in the face as a result of this.
I think a slight dip in the face is part of Viken's design, though I'm not sure.
For what it's worth, Najib Shaheen told me that it's not a problem unless it gets severe.
I know that in my oud, having a stronger brace put nearer to the bridge strengthened the top and improved the projection and balance of the
instrument. |
Hi Brian,
Did you need a new soundboard as a result of adding a brace? I assume one has to remove the top in the process, right?
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