shayrgob
Oud Maniac
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I can't tune my oud!
so as many of you may know or may not know...my dad got me an oud from Syria. It's POS basically. I'm trying to use it because I really can't be
spending $1000 on an oud right now. lol
But what's happening is I'm trying to tune it to any common tuning and as I'm tightening the string, the peg simply jumps back into a lower tuning.
How do you stop this? If the peg didn't do this would I break the oud?
My first oud lesson is on the 27th and I'm just trying to get a few things down before then
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fhalaw
Oud Junkie
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First make sure you are trying to tune to what the strings are designed.
Dont tune F->f strings which are C->c. If you are not sure buy new strings. (is you have 3 metal course and 3 nylon) it is F->F if you have 4
metal courses and 2 nylon it is C->c.
When you are tuning, turn the pegs into a screwing in motion.
If this fails
Try to string the pegs such that when you wind, the string will wind between the wall of the pegbox(the one closest to the peg head) and the previous
loop.
To do this simple pinch the string with your finger to the pegbox wall and wind, this will force the peg deeper into the pegbox instead of screwing
in.
I dont know how clear the explanation is..
Another technique is tune half a note higher and then untune (unwind) with a strong screwing in force.
Stop hating on Syrian Ouds, Nahat are Syrian ouds as well. And those models truimph anything anytime.
Later,
Fadi
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fhalaw
Oud Junkie
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Buy a sukar (from syria) for $400 it should do a very good job.
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Christian1095
Oud Junkie
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If you're trying to tune the strings that came with the oud... just toss them in the trash... they are garbage.
Also, get violin peg dope (or I've also heard chalk or soap)... that can help... Though Fadi's method is prob best solution for your problem.
The pictures of the oud you posted just isn't THAT that bad... certainly not so bad that you can't make it work.
Also, you should thank your dad for hooking you up with this instrument.... My father brought me a bass guitar when I was 14 and I'm still grateful
for it cause it opened up another world to me... You may not have a Nahat, but be thankful for what you have.
Chris Walters
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oudtab
Oud Maniac
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Bonjour shayrgob,
As Christian1095 said, try to put chalk on the pegs like that :
http://sites.google.com/site/oudguitare/generalities/thepegs
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Yes, like people are saying, stop bitching and moaning, and seriously think about this: you can't possibly KNOW what you have yet. Ouds are not
plastic thingies made in Chinese factories, they are wooden objects made by people using simple tools. It may turn out that what you have is a very
decent instrument, it's just not the sort of shiny plastic thing you are used to. You will never be happy with any good-sounding oud if you expect it
to be all glossy and perfect-looking, you should get a Chinese guitar instead.
Read up on how to deal with wooden pegs. I have never tried peg dope, some people say it's good. If you are using soap and chalk, soap is a lubricant,
but chalk is the important think, it stops it from "unwinding", it's a delicate balance. Rub a very thin trace of a very very dry hard soap on the peg
where you can see that the peg and pegbox meet, and then a few cross-lines of chalk, then turn the peg a few revolutions, then check that it's
blocking and not slipping, then put the string on. If you have enough soap on there that it turns smoothly and easily, it will never hold, start over
by getting it all off, you have too much on. Maybe just go get some peg dope and try that.
A wooden peg cannot hold unless it's being pushed in the whole time you are tuning. What Fadi is explaining is very important because that little
detail is what causes the string to pull the peg inward as it winds. That's the nature of wooden pegs as it's been for thousands of years, it has
nothing to do with anything being a POS.
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patheslip
Oud Junkie
Posts: 160
Registered: 5-24-2008
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fernandraynaud
I think you're being a little harsh with your
'stop bitching and moaning, and seriously think about this: you can't possibly KNOW what you have yet. Ouds are not plastic thingies made in Chinese
factories, they are wooden objects made by people using simple tools. It may turn out that what you have is a very decent instrument, it's just not
the sort of shiny plastic thing you are used to. You will never be happy with any good-sounding oud if you expect it to be all glossy and
perfect-looking, you should get a Chinese guitar instead. '
the guy is a newbee, like me.
Forty-five years ago, when I started the fiddle, I didn't know how to cope with pegs either.
I still lust after some sort of orbital gearing system.
Unless I've missed some especially irritating code posted elsewhere, in which case I'd better start baking that humble pie.
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shayrgob
Oud Maniac
Posts: 57
Registered: 9-23-2009
Location: Chi-Town!
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Quote: Originally posted by fhalaw  | First make sure you are trying to tune to what the strings are designed.
Dont tune F->f strings which are C->c. If you are not sure buy new strings. (is you have 3 metal course and 3 nylon) it is F->F if you have 4
metal courses and 2 nylon it is C->c.
When you are tuning, turn the pegs into a screwing in motion.
If this fails
Try to string the pegs such that when you wind, the string will wind between the wall of the pegbox(the one closest to the peg head) and the previous
loop.
To do this simple pinch the string with your finger to the pegbox wall and wind, this will force the peg deeper into the pegbox instead of screwing
in.
I dont know how clear the explanation is..
Another technique is tune half a note higher and then untune (unwind) with a strong screwing in force.
Stop hating on Syrian Ouds, Nahat are Syrian ouds as well. And those models truimph anything anytime.
Later,
Fadi
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ah k I wasn't pushing in as I was tightening the peg.
So my oud has 3 sets of nylon. Actually 2 sets and 1 individual.
So i'm trying the F - A - D - G - C - F tuning (From top to bottom) and the G is not sounding right....at all!! I tried going an octave lower but the
strings were way too loose! And if I go an octave higher I'll break the strings.
Also...the oud isn't holding the tune. I was able to get it tuned (I think?) but as soon as I play around with it it drops down in tuning. But I guess
this is where the "peg dope" comes in.
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shayrgob
Oud Maniac
Posts: 57
Registered: 9-23-2009
Location: Chi-Town!
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| Quote: Originally posted by Christian1095 | If you're trying to tune the strings that came with the oud... just toss them in the trash... they are garbage.
Also, get violin peg dope (or I've also heard chalk or soap)... that can help... Though Fadi's method is prob best solution for your problem.
The pictures of the oud you posted just isn't THAT that bad... certainly not so bad that you can't make it work.
Also, you should thank your dad for hooking you up with this instrument.... My father brought me a bass guitar when I was 14 and I'm still grateful
for it cause it opened up another world to me... You may not have a Nahat, but be thankful for what you have. |
yeah you're right....I guess I take things for granted sometimes.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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Well, Patheslip, I guess we all have our good and bad days. I'm not the only one who read one post too many about being given Syrian junk. The fact
remains that most ouds are NOT made to modern standards, and that Chinese guitars ARE much better finished instruments, so I wasn't even being
sarcastic. Peace.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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Shayrgob,
How much is it dropping in tuning? do you mean like 1/2 tone or 8 tones? If it's dropping a little that's normal, that strings stretch, you have to
exercise them side to side; it takes 3 days or so to settle.
On the tuning, can you get a micrometer? It's not true that if you have so many wound strings it tells you you should tune a certain way. Only ONE
thing will tell you, and that's the thickness of the strings (that and the scale, but that changes minimally). If money is tight, can you buy a $25
micrometer, and then return it? Measure those strings and measure the scale from nut to bridge, before something breaks. A typical set of oud strings
is something like:
[ 0th 0.019 plain (arabic ff) ]
1st 0.022 plain (arabic cc)
2nd 0.028 plain (arabic gg)
3rd 0.024 wound (arabic DD)
4th 0.029 wound (arabic AA)
5th 0.034 wound (arabic FF)
6th 0.042 wound (arabic C)
Each gauge could be +/- 0.002" or even more. But that covers tuning FF to ff or C to cc or even C to ff (13 strings). In practice it allows you to
tune the 5th and 6th courses to any of the common drone tunings as well.
If your thinnest course is say 0.020", and your third a plain 0.032", that's meant for a C-cc tuning, it won't work as F-ff.
You can see that where the wound strings pick up a jump in thickness occurs, for the same pitch you need a thicker plain than wound string. Better in
any case to be conservative. Relatively much fewer people tune in F-ff.
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shayrgob
Oud Maniac
Posts: 57
Registered: 9-23-2009
Location: Chi-Town!
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| Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud | Shayrgob,
How much is it dropping in tuning? do you mean like 1/2 tone or 8 tones? If it's dropping a little that's normal, that strings stretch, you have to
exercise them side to side; it takes 3 days or so to settle.
On the tuning, can you get a micrometer? It's not true that if you have so many wound strings it tells you you should tune a certain way. Only ONE
thing will tell you, and that's the thickness of the strings (that and the scale, but that changes minimally). If money is tight, can you buy a $25
micrometer, and then return it? Measure those strings and measure the scale from nut to bridge, before something breaks. A typical set of oud strings
is something like:
[ 0th 0.019 plain (arabic ff) ]
1st 0.022 plain (arabic cc)
2nd 0.028 plain (arabic gg)
3rd 0.024 wound (arabic DD)
4th 0.029 wound (arabic AA)
5th 0.034 wound (arabic FF)
6th 0.042 wound (arabic C)
Each gauge could be +/- 0.002" or even more. But that covers tuning FF to ff or C to cc or even C to ff (13 strings). In practice it allows you to
tune the 5th and 6th courses to any of the common drone tunings as well.
If your thinnest course is say 0.020", and your third a plain 0.032", that's meant for a C-cc tuning, it won't work as F-ff.
You can see that where the wound strings pick up a jump in thickness occurs, for the same pitch you need a thicker plain than wound string. Better in
any case to be conservative. Relatively much fewer people tune in F-ff.
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wow...thanks for the information! I'm certainly grateful. Of all people I should have a micrometer but I don't. lol I'll work on getting my hands on
one and take it from there.
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Lamma Anakhu
Oud Lover
Posts: 11
Registered: 5-2-2008
Location: California
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Mood: Saba - صبا
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Sometimes pegs are just a very poor fit. If none of the solutions below seem to work well enough, then I'd suggest new pegs, but they can be a bit of
a cost (good pegs, not the ebay specials).
Do not apply too much pressure to your peg when pushing it in, the oud will suffer damage to the peg box and neck joints over time (it shouldn't need
a lot of force). If considerable force is absolutely necessary, then support the opposite side of the peg box with your other hand, thereby taking
the pressure off of the rest of the oud.
If you don't want the cost associated with new pegs, then peg dope is great for minor problems, but if the peg fit is completely awful, I'd suggest
peg drops.
You might also need to use the methods for loose and tight pegs, on the same peg.
Loose pegs = peg dope, peg drops, or chalk
Tight pegs = dry bar of soap, extremely lightly applied (overdoing it will cause a terribly loose peg, and chalk will be required to fix)
Hope it helps
.
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patheslip
Oud Junkie
Posts: 160
Registered: 5-24-2008
Location: Welsh Marches
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fernandraynaud
I get like that too. Sometimes I'll nip down in the night and delete a post I put up after coming back from a gig.
I wonder if there's any civilised way of letting off steam without insulting anybody and everybody.
I find the second most annoying thing is those native english speakers who won't use the spell check, and who don't reread their posts before sending
them off to cyberspace.
The most irritating thing is when I don't use the spell check, and don't reread the post before sending it off to cyberspace.
Or is that just embarrassment?
Keep on ouding.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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I wonder if there's any civilised way of letting off steam without insulting anybody and everybody.
Heck, no!
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shayrgob
Oud Maniac
Posts: 57
Registered: 9-23-2009
Location: Chi-Town!
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play the oud?
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