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Aymara
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Do you like Oriental Jazz?
Anouar Brahem - Stopover At Djibouti (Live)
Taken from his current album The Astounding Eyes Of Rita (ECM, 2009) ... I love this album  ... highly recommended!
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Edward Powell
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if you are asking for personal opinions - my quick answer would be (very generally speaking) "no, I don't like it." [although I LOVE Anouor, and I
like Rabi also very very much].
Inconsistent answer, right?
My strong feeling is that if you want to mix Oriental music and Jazz you REALLY better know what you are doing, otherwise it will be horrible, which
is IMHO usually the case with this genre.
My thoughts are that the melodic basis of both these types of music are polar opposites: Jazz takes Western Harmony to a highly sophisticated level.
Oriental music is based on sophisticated INTONATION and linear melodic development (MAQAM). Western Harmony relies of 12 tone equal-temperament which
allows for vertical poly-melodic (harmonic) structure, but at the expense of microtonal intonation for the most part.
If you want to fit these two together you will come up with something new but something will get sacraficed in the process.... usually it is the
Oriental side for two reasons, in my opinion:
1- Due largely to post-colonial attitudes and practices Western music is globally considered THE superior music and it is taught all over the world
2- Western audiences are more rich.
therefore almost no jazz musician alive has more than the foggiest idea of what a maqam really is. . . . whereas a huge portion of Oriental musicians
are also fully trained in Western music.
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fernandraynaud
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Complex subject. Much of what you say, Edward, I can agree with, but I think the importance of spreading, however thinly, some of the Arabic Musical
culture in the world, is such that I will tolerate vast cases of bad taste just so Western audiences come to SEE and WANT TO SEE the oud, dumbek, etc
as normal musical instruments. I don't necessarily go so far as to LISTEN to that crap.
The development of harmony and polyphony was crucial. And Sharki music WILL adopt both, the question is just how. The symphonic "oud concertos" and
the giant orchestras of Middle eastern instruments playing a single monophonic line don't do ANYTHING for me. We, as musicians and composers, have to
do better.
But the specific cut you cued up, Chris, happens to sound nice. I would have to listen with good headphones to hear the detail.
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Aymara
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Crap? What is crap? Someone's crap is another one's "revelation" 
And please ... this Jazz is definitely not crap.
But I can understand Edward's opinion, but every coin has two sides, as we say in Germany
No matter, if you like it or not, this is an approach to make the Western world interested in arabic music/instruments, to let arabic music sound more
appealing to Westerner's ears, which are not used to quarter tones.
A further example might be the Trio Joubran, who also let arabic music sound more Western ... or let's say they mix styles to reach the
Western audience.
One might say ... huuu, they only want to make money and the Western audience is richer than the Arabic. The other side of the medal is, that
Westerners learn, that there is more about the Arabic world than terrorism and Islam ... friendly people, interesting culture, etc.. I think the later
is very important right now to get over Racism and bad political propaganda!
| Quote: | | But the specific cut you cued up, Chris, happens to sound nice. I would have to listen with good headphones to hear the detail.
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If you have a chance, listen to the album, which is Hi-Fi par excellance, though some people say, that ECM uses too much reverb in their productions
... as always just a matter of taste.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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ALAMI
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The word "Oriental Jazz" has become known in the early eighties with the group of Ziad Rahbani, with Toufic Farroukh on sax and Abboud Al Saadi on
bass, there was also a oud player in the band but can't remember his name.
They produced many albums, the most "jazzy" of them being "Houdou' Nesbi" (Accalmie Relative, Rlativly calm).
These are modern versions in a Big band rearrangement and different musicians, no more oud but a Qanoun.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws8EhHN7nRQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMLKcSkx2Gc
Ziad Rahbani later on dismissed the term "Oriental Jazz" and started to get angry when hearing it, now he says that this music is just Jazz that
happened to be composed by an Oriental guy and that there is no such a thing as Oriental Jazz.
This is to my knowledge the opinion of the "father" of Oriental Jazz.
I am not sure that Anouar Brahem considers himself as a jazzman, he likes to emphasis the "modal" approach when describing his own compositions. But a
CD has to be put on a shelf under a genre label and I understand if he prefers to be put under Jazz instead of "World Music".
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Edward Powell
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This is very pleasant modal jazz IMHO... but there is absolutely nothing at all Oriental in it except a tiny bit of riq. So I think Zaid has
described himself correctly - and those that label the 'father of OJ' don't really know what they are talking about. IMHO 
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Edward Powell
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Quote: Originally posted by ALAMI  |
I am not sure that Anouar Brahem considers himself as a jazzman, he likes to emphasis the "modal" approach when describing his own compositions. But a
CD has to be put on a shelf under a genre label and I understand if he prefers to be put under Jazz instead of "World Music".
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In my opinion Brahem's music has almost nothing in common with both Jazz and Oriental music. . . . IMHO he plays totally in his own way - yes,
bases largely on modes... but not Oriental modes, more like Gregorian modes. I absolutely love his feel and sound---- but I find it irritating
when he is refered to as an Oriental musician (meaning, playing "oriental music").... and of course he is certainly not playing Jazz, unless you
use the term "jazz" to describe an enormous variety of improvised music.
[my opinions only ]
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Aymara
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And what do you call THIS?
PS: I think collaborations like this and the fact, that his albums are released on a famous Jazz label, often lead to the conclusion, that he is a
Jazzer.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Edward Powell
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Are you asking me to explain why I don't consider Anouar to be playing jazz?
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tchandler
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I had the good fortune to interview Brahem after this album came out, and one thing he said struck me: he doesn't purposely compose in non-quarter
tone modes to accommodate western instruments/players, rather it's just the kind of mode that he likes and naturally gravitates towards.
I think a discussion of what is/isn't jazz is going to go nowhere fast! That's been going on since Jelly Roll Morton and nobody (except maybe Wynton
in his own mind) has put it to rest!
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Aymara
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I just wanted to show, why many consider him being a Jazzer.
Very interesting interview quote.
| Quote: | | I think a discussion of what is/isn't jazz is going to go nowhere fast! |
Shure.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Microber
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Amir ElSaffar
Do you know AMIR ELSAFFAR ?
He is an Iraqian/American jazz trumpetist and Iraqi maqam singer and santour player.
For me, it is the first time I listen to such a music. A try of mix between jazz and arabic music where oriental music doesn't 'lost' anything to
seduce the western listeners.
His music is based on the traditional 'Iraqi maqam' that let a great part to improvisation.
As a musical library worker, I haven listened a lot of jazz-orient music. The well known Brahem, Abou Khalil but also Ahmed Abdul Malik, Avishai
Cohen, Dhafer Youssef, Roman Bunka, Ibrahim Maalouf, John Zorn... And for me the work of Amir Elsaffar is the best result I've ever heard.
In the Amir Elsaffar MySpace, listen especially to Menba'. And also the other tunes.
Amir Elsaffar website.
Robert
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Aymara
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Nice tip, Robert.
BTW ... in his MySpace friendlist you'll find Brahim Fribgane ... I like his Sahara very much as his East & West too.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Edward Powell
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by the way.... I missed this clip --- thanks, it is very pleasant.
the vibe of the music is very positive, and pleasing. . . .
however I would have a couple of complaints -
first: the complete absence of microtones seems to me to miss out on a lot.
second: melodically it feels to me that they are simply running scales up and down. My guess is that they simply decided on a particular scale, and
then just are each doing what they want with it --- all due respect, I personally find this approach to modal playing quite irritating and even a bit
intellictually insulting after a while. This is in fact not a true "modal" music because a "true" modal music (in my opinion) uses modes which have a
melodic GRAMMER. for example some notes are more important than others, sometimes there is an ascend and decending order, there will be certain
characteristic melodic motifs, there will be a "path"| (seyir) and a direction. In true modal music within one system there can be many "modes" with
exactly the same scale but with totally different character. For example in the RAGA system there must be at least 20 famous RAGAS which use the
dorian mode. In the MAKAM system there are also more than a dozen makams which are based on the "bayati" scale.
I love ANOUAR, and I am NOT trying to insult him or this music!!!!! However, just for the sake of conversation and debate I would suggest that the
music on this clip is a degradation in both jazz and modal music because the truly advanced element of jazz (improvisation over a sophisticated
chordal system) has been deleted completely - - - and from the modal music, the use of microtones and melodic grammar has been deleted. . . . all
that remains is a generic scale to be played up and down at random. This is unsophisticated (which does NOT necessarily mean a "bad thing"...).
But these guys are GREAT musicians, and therefore they are able to pull it off and make great music out of it - but still I feel that listeners
deserve to be aware that certain musical elements which took hundreds of years to develop, have simply been deleted - RATHER THAN ADVANCED FURTHER!
This is my criticism, I don't feel this music is an advancement, I feel it is a regression.
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Aymara
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No wonder ... the oud is the only instrument in this quartett, which can play them.
It might have been an alternative to give the clarinet a pause here and there and use a fretless bass in these parts to make quarter tone passages
possible.
| Quote: | | ... but still I feel that listeners deserve to be aware that certain musical elements which took hundreds of years to develop, have simply been
deleted - RATHER THAN ADVANCED FURTHER! |
Mmh, maybe it's because I like minimalism sometimes, that makes me like this record?
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Edward Powell
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on closer listening to this clip, they use very interesting rhythms. . . . and they play with wonderful feeling!
actually I really like the composition
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Aymara
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If you get the chance listen to the CD ... it's worth it.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Edward Powell
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it's funny how it can sometimes take a while to get to like some music
However, personally I think if these guys would only add a little bit on melodic grammer, to the scales. . . they would really have something super
great. (as opposed to just great ) )
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Aymara
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The CDs I like at first listening are usually those I only listen to a short time. That ones I really like not before several listenings are the
"evergreens".
| Quote: | | However, personally I think if these guys would only add a little bit on melodic grammer, to the scales. . . |
There's not only one song on this CD 
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Edward Powell
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funny story about Anouar..... about 15 years ago I was in Morocco in search of OUD. Did find too much, so I went down to Essaouirra -the beach
place- and one day I was walking past an art gallery and I hear such a beautiful sweet oud music (not oriental sounding, but just flowing and so
sweet), and immediately I thought to myself "this is the kind of sound I also want to make" (such a simple, beautiful, and peaceful sound). I went in
and got them to copy this cassette, and listened to it for many many years. It was Anouar - I don't have any idea what the name of the album is, but I
think it was his first ECM. It has long solo oud pieces..... just magical.
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Aymara
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On his website you'll find his discography. His first ECM recording is from 1991.
PS: I bet you talk about pieces like THIS ... HERE in better sound quality with band.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Lazzaro
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Hi folks, actually my main research is mix jazz with oriental music, and I wont share my last experience. This is a jam session with some Egyptian
folk and modern musician. For me the most interesting thing is meeting musician of other culture without worrying about the result.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X00K-fdqTFw
best regards
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Aymara
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| Quote: Originally posted by Lazzaro | | For me the most interesting thing is meeting musician of other culture without worrying about the result. |
Yes, that can be very thrilling and fun. Interesting ensemble you were playing with.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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jass
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Hey Guys,
Have you seen these clips?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SxGJ1w4BFw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FLc53xwTtc
Would you consider this oriental jazz? I think its a really great blend, what do you guys think?
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Aymara
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Yes, in the other thread here in the forums. Thanks, that you posted the videos in this thread too ... I forgot that.
| Quote: | | Would you consider this oriental jazz? |
I definitely do and I bet I'm not the only one
For my taste this record is a must-have ... too bad I have to wait 'til September for the Europe release, but it's worth the wait.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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