Giorgioud
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Sympathetic strings on the oud
Hello oud lovers,
I was toying with the idea of putting some sympathetic strings on the upper part of one of my ouds. About 9, as there won't be room for more. Why on
earth, I hear you asking? Because I watched this
http://youtu.be/AH0u_Mh76kk
and I was really impressed.
I talked to my trusted luthier Bob Alexander from Horsham, Sussex UK, who told me that it could be done, but the drastic modifications required to
carry out such an action would dramatically change the sound of the oud. And the size of my ever-shrinking wallet.
I just want to know if there is any of you out there who had done something similar to a hapless oud (I can already see the "traditionalists" shouting
sacrilege, throwing their hands in the air and asking for capital punishment, but I digress), and if they did, how much has the sound changed? Does it
still resemble, even remotely, an oud, or does it end up sounding, say, like a banjo (a cheap one at that) or God forbid, a guitar?
If someone wants to share the experience, I'd be happy to listen and take it on board.
Regards
Giorgio
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Jody Stecher
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Sympathetic strings affect tone color and slightly extend sustain. The relatively short duration of a single oud stroke is part of the charm of the
instrument. There is a chance that the clarity of plectrum strokes will be negatively affected by sympathetics. Unless the oud is fitted with dozens
of sympathetics an oud player's ability to freely move from one maqam to another would be curtailed. The pitches to which the sympathetics are tuned
would be reinforced and have a more complex tone than the other pitches giving the impression that the non-reinforced pitches are lacking in tone
color.
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Giorgioud
Oud Junkie
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Great point Jody, and very true. And there's no way to skirt around this problem, unless, as you said, one fits dozens of sympathetics.....then it'd
become a qan-oud :-D. Thanks for your intervention, much appreciated........
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fernandraynaud
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They make viols, viola da gamba, and violas with sympathetic strings. There's even a special instrument they call a viola d'amore. These are all bowed
instruments, so the notes can be sustained to better excite the sympathetic strings. You can hear one here, it has a nice fat timbre:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBXhGvWlYOI
These viola d'amore had a moment of popularity in the 18th century, when the narrow-necked violin family and the wide-necked viola da gamba families
were fighting it out, and all sorts of interesting hybrids were tried. I was attracted to a (cello-sized) bass viola da gamba with sympathetic
strings, and asked around, expecting raves, but people who had played them confided that "you know, it really doesn't make THAT much difference".
Also on a big clavichord, the passive portions of the strings (on the peg side of the bridge) resonate sympathetically, and there are a lot of them,
creating a quite strong "reverb" type effect. And here again, it's not all that great. On my clavichord I usually drape a piece of felt across those
strings because they muddy up the timbre too much.
So, the way I see it, sympathetic strings have been tried and generally speaking rejected because, for all the hoopla, they don't add very much. The
fact that they don't show up on many plucked instruments speaks for itself.
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abc123xyz
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Well personally I love the sound of sympathetic strings, and am always delighted to see them tried on new instruments.
I also think, regardless of what else is or is not accomplished, that angering traditionalists is a worthy goal all by itself. ¦·D If you're still
worried about them, though, just don't call your invention an oud, and nobody should feel threatened.
It's also not likely that dozens of strings would be necessary for modulation, as not every mode used is going to have a completely unique tonal set,
and any note used mainly as a passing or ornamental note only need not have a separate sympathetic. The tarafdar sitars have an octave of sympathetic
strings plus anywhere from 3 to 7 extra strings for modulation. (In Indian Classical Music the tonic doesn't normally shift during a piece, but the
internal arrangement of the mode may.)
There is a problem, however, which is that their addition adds extra tension to an instrument, and taking a standard oud and just adding sympathetics
without making proper adjustments and adding reinforcement to it is, at best going to muffle the instrument, and at worst damage it. One really has
to go back to the drawing board, and is, in effect, designing an entirely new instrument.
David
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Giorgioud
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Fernand,
thanks for your intervention. I was particularly looking forward to your point of view, as I greatly appreciate your contributions. It seems to me you
are very knowledgeable on a wide variety of subjects. I know I can always count on your experise. I just didn't want to call you out loud, that's
all........
I confess I didn't know the viola d'amore. Yeah, gorgeous sound, why on earth is it not used more widely?
David,
"angering traditionalists is a worthy goal all by itself"....I couldn't agree more!!! Right on! But seriously, your point of view (about the
discussion of the effectiveness of sympathetics)is as equally as valid, and a worthy one. I will be pondering it carefully. Also, you're dead right
about the drastic alterations. My liuthier, who's an absolute expert and makes lutes, thorbe, and all sorts of Reinassance string instruments, has
told me as much. Removing the soundboard and refitting it, adding extra reinforcements inside, a new bridge for sympathetics, installation of
peg-blocks, reaming peg-holes, etc etc, all on the understanding that the original tone will be altered, he told me everything. The cost is quite
steep too, £540 (about $840 or 670 Euro), which really is the minimum he can charge for that sort of job, as I'm a regular client.
I'll have to consider carefully, upon the light shed with all your interventions, my options. Of course, if anybody has more advice, it's warmly
welcome.
Thank you all kindly, you've been super!
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Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
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For £540 you can get one or two Kashmiri rubabs or one and a half Afghan rubabs. It's tuned in fourths, has nylon or gut playing strings, is designed
to withstand the pressure of its sympathetic metal strings. You can probably try one for free. You can then explore the sympathetic string experience
without a nice oud undergoing alternations that are probably irreversible. Another idea: do the alterations on a horrible oud. It can't be made worse.
Maybe it'll be better with sympathetics.
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Giorgioud
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.....and of course Jody, I was also looking forward to your reply, as one of the most respected and cultured members of the forum. Thanks for your
intervention, I have been tickled by the idea, if it's tuned in fourths it'll be all right. It has a beautiful sound indeed, and also its offspring
the sarod, although I would find uncomfortable to play sitting on the floor like they do.........
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Jody Stecher
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yeah, "cultured' like yoghurt. :-)
Quote: Originally posted by Giorgioud  | | .....and of course Jody, I was also looking forward to your reply, as one of the most ....cultured members of the forum. ... |
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mavrothis
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Too modest. I think your advice was very good. Better to try an instrument that is almost what Giorgioud wants first, then see if it is worth the
effort and expense to mess with his oud.
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Giorgioud
Oud Junkie
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Absolutely right Mavrothis,
(bloody hell, at the cost of repeating myself, may I say that you were another one of that restricted cabal of forum members who I wanted to hear what
he thought? What's with this post?Now all I need is Spyros, Jdowning, Chris, Brian and Ararat's advice (and a few others too, but this getting to be
like the Yellow Pages or something).... and then I'll be well chuffed).
Also, Jody's advice is a sound one. I have 3 ouds: a Bicicioglu and 2 Fathys, none of them suitable for "messing around". Bicigioglu's the cheapest of
the three (in price and in materials), but it still has a damn fine sound which I'd loath to change......
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mavrothis
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My pleasure, thanks. I've had some of my luthier friends mess with things for me in the past, and usually, I just end wasting their time and my money
(tried a bouzouki with metal microtonal frets - maybe it works for some, but I just ended up having the extra frets removed).
Anyway, I think Jody's advice was perfect, and he obviously knows about a wide range of instruments.
Thanks, and good luck with your experimenting.
mavrothi
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Jody Stecher
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Mavrothi, I'm curious about why the metal "extra" frets failed. My Arabic buzuq with (17-to-the octave) tied-on frets made from fishing line works
fine. And microtonal soft frets on Persian tar and setar work fine. So what is it about metal frets that failed on the bouzouki?
| Quote: Originally posted by mavrothis | My pleasure, thanks. I've had some of my luthier friends mess with things for me in the past, and usually, I just end wasting their time and my money
(tried a bouzouki with metal microtonal frets - maybe it works for some, but I just ended up having the extra frets removed).
Anyway, I think Jody's advice was perfect, and he obviously knows about a wide range of instruments.
Thanks, and good luck with your experimenting.
mavrothi |
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mavrothis
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Hi Jody,
The positioning of the microtonal frets just did not give me the intonation I desired. They were markedly Arabic to my ears, closer to quarter tones
than to what I was after.
I think that the positioning was close to saz fretting, but upon reflection, I realized that saz intonation doesn't make me that happy either for what
I play (listening to a great saz player is another story - I always enjoy that).
Also, I don't just want to play Ottoman or Greek folk songs on the bouzouki. Soon after I acquired it, I was booked for a bouzouki/oud gig where I
would need to play Manolis Chiotis songs (pretty Western, pretty fast) and in funky keys. That led me to realize I needed a bouzouki, not a bouzouki
hybrid.
You can see pictures of my bouzouki before the extra frets were taken out of it here: http://www.theodorakis.name
Once Taso gets whatever scripts off his site that are causing the warning, you should be able to check it out.
Long story short, I think that if you want to modify a bouzouki or guitar with microtonal frets, you should used tied frets for those specific
tones.
mavrothi
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Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1357
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Thanks, Mavrothi, now I understand. Instead of only 12 unmovable frets in the wrong place (for some things) you had to contend with even more wrongly
placed frets that couldn't be budged. Aaargh.
| Quote: Originally posted by mavrothis | Hi Jody,
The positioning of the microtonal frets just did not give me the intonation I desired. They were markedly Arabic to my ears, closer to quarter tones
than to what I was after.
I think that the positioning was close to saz fretting, but upon reflection, I realized that saz intonation doesn't make me that happy either for what
I play (listening to a great saz player is another story - I always enjoy that).
Also, I don't just want to play Ottoman or Greek folk songs on the bouzouki. Soon after I acquired it, I was booked for a bouzouki/oud gig where I
would need to play Manolis Chiotis songs (pretty Western, pretty fast) and in funky keys. That led me to realize I needed a bouzouki, not a bouzouki
hybrid.
You can see pictures of my bouzouki before the extra frets were taken out of it here: http://www.theodorakis.name
Once Taso gets whatever scripts off his site that are causing the warning, you should be able to check it out.
Long story short, I think that if you want to modify a bouzouki or guitar with microtonal frets, you should used tied frets for those specific
tones.
mavrothi |
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Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
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connecting the threads
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=11783&p...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AH0u_Mh76kk
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norumba
Oud Junkie
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I played sarod for many years, as well as oud (and fretless electric guitar). I had to give up the sarod as i found the sympathetics (and the fact
that the sarod has no low end at all) incredibly painful for my tinnitus.
I do think sympathetics on the oud may make it lose some of its characteristic charm and color, as Jody mentioned. There's also the issue of tension
and bracing. The tuning is not so much an issue -- If youre playing a lot of different raags or maqams in one evening, then just tune it
chromatically -- but if you're dealing with some quarter tones in the maqam that may throw a monkey wrench in how you tune or retune the
sympathetics.
That said, I'm so glad Jody posted that link to Dimitris Hiotis' latva ; if youre going to do it , structurallly thats how to approach it. I think the
tone is a little twangy, but the concept is right.
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ALAMI
Oud Junkie
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Giorgio check this:
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=1732
Scroll down, it was posted by Mike back in 2005
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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..... and the next step? Look what happened to the lute.
http://www.torban.org
See Chapter IIIb for images.
Be careful what you wish for oudists!
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Giorgioud
Oud Junkie
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Jody, Alami,
thanks for the threads. Wow, Joseph Tawadros' ouds look really neat, especially the one with sympathetics......7 strings (although on the picture
there are only 4), they look quite thick to me, I wonder what gauge they are.......
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DoggerelPundit
Oud Junkie
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Giorgioud,
For a different approach, the sound of this standard but differently strung Karibyan might interest you. He used it on cut 5, the Husseini taqsim.
Nicely played and powerful. Pleasing modulations too, but the clip doesn't go that far; you'll have to get the CD.
Well worth it though.
http://dantzrecords.com/DantzRec_CD71001.html
-Stephen
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Giorgioud
Oud Junkie
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Hello Stephen,
thanks for the tip. Wow, lovely sound. It seems to me that it has the normal strings, but on the wound ones, the other one which normally should be
tuned in unison, is an octave higher. Ingenious! It has the "springiness" of the oud with the mood of a bouzuq or a saz. Do you know, by any chance,
if these strings are sold around, which gauge they are, or if they were a homemade job which entailed just picking the thinnest strings and matching
them/tuning them for the right tension?
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